Since there's no way to cross-class Perform, it would be a real RP asset for chars who are trained in acting or music (but without bardic magic) to have access to an "entertainment" skill. This would be used in situations where a perform check would be appropriate, so non-bard PCs aren't stuck with just their CH bonus.
I think this is a very good suggestion, and agree entirely.
I do think this has some merit. I'll leave it open a while for others to disagree.
I like this suggestion a lot. It'd be great for storytellers especially.
Yes.
I think it is a damn good idea.
Agreed, it would provide a great RP tool and give another way to fill out a character with a formal education outside of Lore.
Then we can get rid of perform!
NO WAY THERES NO WAY ANY OTHER CLASS THAN BARDS COULD EVER BE GOOD AT TELLING A STORY OR A JOKE OR SOMETHING
Yup. You can't cross class it, and can't make an untrained check using loot, only CH. a skill that can go up to 10 points would be on par with crossclass skill points and loot. It would represent non magically enhanced unlike Bard Perform, but skilled entertaining and performing.
Possibly add points to perform as well.
You could make it like other secondary skills, so a select number of EFUSS points boosts perform by one point. I like this idea though, as a boost to RP and character diversity.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;142530Yup. You can't cross class it, and can't make an untrained check using loot, only CH. a skill that can go up to 10 points would be on par with crossclass skill points and loot. It would represent non magically enhanced unlike Bard Perform, but skilled entertaining and performing.
Actually, you can make an untrained check using loot. My current has done it. But that is beside the point, I like the idea.
This is some serious bullshit. There is a bard class for a reason, and this entertainment skill would just cheapen it. If you want to be an artist, I think you should man up and take bard levels.
I agree with Calculor.
Hey, Calc...hi
Quote from: Calculor;142579This is some serious bullshit. There is a bard class for a reason, and this entertainment skill would just cheapen it. If you want to be an artist, I think you should man up and take bard levels.
A bard dedicates his life to entretainment, so clearly a bard is the best entretainer, but somone who does not dedicate himself to do so, may still be good.
Think of a random soldier, good at making jokes.
A rogue that copies other people very well.
An illusionist wizard that dedicates to entretainment throuhg illusions, but ocacionaly acts in his demosntrations as well.
They don't give morale, they aren't extraordiante (maybe the wizard's..) none dedicates to non-magical entretainment (and the wizard makes more sence for an entretainer who entratains by making illusions).
It is fair other characters get the chance to entretain.
wrong, calculor is right
As a player of bards, this is something I take very seriously. Other characters can be entertaining in the trite ways you suggested (Bill the Soldier telling dirty jokes etc), and entertainment would be a fine but completely unnecessary addition in that respect.
It won't be used like that, though. It will be used, by and large, to circumvent having to take a bard class and still be called a performer. UglyLoveMachine will be able to inflict her wretched butcheries of popular emo songs with a powerful fighter build, and she will be given just as much respect as some poor smuck who actually multiclassed to bard.
There is a CLASS devoted to performing, and they get PERFORM for a reason. Don't cheapen it with some vaguely defined skill that can be taken by anyone.
There's a difference. Bards are casters with a magical bloodline that gives them sorcerous powers over music/poetry/war cries etc. They use that ability to cast spells, and empower their chosen artform with magical effects.
If you look at Dungeons and Dragons skill Perform, it is actually a class skill for rogues and monks (for acrobatics, magic tricks etc), and cross class-able by anyone. Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument well or compere a show, but only a Bard can enhance that with magic to create Bardic Music effects.
My current main PC is a Cleric of Sharess specifically built as an entertainer and explorer, with social skills from Rogue levels, and a domain that lets him cast another CHA buff that stacks with Splendor. It would not make any sense IC for him to take bard levels to get around the NWN limitation on who can take Perform, and taking a few Bard levels would in fact feel like lame powerbuilding or deliberate gimping. Either I'd use the free access to arcane wands and Bardsong, or I'd deliberately ignore them and have wasted levels I could have taken Rogue on to access the locks and traps skills he uses for exploring.
I actually think this would cause less lameness, as no longer could a player say "I can take Bard levels because Bob The Fighter has learned to play the trombone". Bard becomes something MORE special, as with a variety of Entertainment characters, Bards who can then add a magical boost to that stick out, as opposed to being "the music class". I really like playing Bards, and I've played three here, all of whom I've tried to push the Perform beyond just "can play music" on one way or the other.
I think there should be an "trolling" efuss skill. But, of course, that'll be another skill that were earlier reserved to a few individuals as Calculol, now being available to everyone.
Yes for Trolling skill on EFUSS!!
No for Entertainment skill on EFUSS!
Take a Bard level and be cool! Perform is a skill attached to a supernatural power.
Or use your flexibility and make a combination of Persuade/Bluff/Lore/Charisma, having your own entertainment skill!
Go Bard or go home!
A bard represents a professional entertainer. One who has so much focused on their talent that their music begins to take on a magical quality.
Tom the fighter down in the trenches may not be a bard, but there is nothing wrong with him knowing how to play a pan pipe and knowing a touching or heartfelt song or two. This would be represented by a few points in an entertainment skill. They would still be completely incapable of anything remotely magical.
Think of a real life comparison.
Elton John at his height was an extremely charismatic performer and was capable of some very moving music.
I played the Saxophone in a highschool band. It was mildly entertaining, but in no way professional or showy.
Elton John would be a high level bard in this case. Me, well a lowly peasant with a few points in Entertain.
Also, consider that there are currently no scripted Perform checks. The only place it is used is in determining the effects of Bardsong. So, for any non bard to have points in this would result in a completely nonmechanical flavor skill.
It won't be used like that, sadly. It will be used so that every Tom, Dick, and Sue can be a masterful performer without actually being a Bard.
I know that when I want to emote blowing a horn I always take four bard levels with my fighter levels. This is only natural.
QuoteThis is absurd. Soldiers and adventurers are not creative musicians. If you want to be a singer or a playwright or a poet, what's the problem with taking a bard level?
Ahmed, my wizard, played the bongos. For most of his career he carried a set of bongos he'd bought off Zul'jin and played them for RP purposes. Taking a Bard level just to have a few Perform points would have reduced his Caster Level and spell list, just for a very minor RP benefit.
You intend for your PC to have only non-magical skills in music and no sorcerous bloodline. You won't be using Bard Song (the ability attached to the magic), you won't be using arcane wands, and you won't be casting spells. You'll have taken, essentially an "empty" level of Bard.
QuotePerform is a skill attached to a supernatural power.
No,
Bard Song is a skill attached to a supernatural power. Perform represents a PC's ability to entertain, and so influences a supernatural power
that is based on entertainment.
QuoteThis is absurd. Soldiers and adventurers are not creative musicians.
Hmm. Praxes was a bard and a professional soldier. How come some of the players here consider it not lame to take 3-4 levels of Bard, which gives a mechanical advantage from the Bardsong, Taunt and access to arcane wands, but lame to have access to a purely RP skill with no mechanical advantages, for similar concepts who don't think it makes sense to take Bard levels?
Honestly, I find it irritating that you have to take a magically-inclined class to be an entertainer, which I find redicoulous.
Besides, if this is added, make it so they just have a non-magical knack for it or can work in a play/sing decently, but not evoke really-deep-down gushy feeling stuff, while Bards can do so and get full benefits of being the top-of-the-line enterainers able to woo your sis into tears and back again.
Or get a horde of battle-raging Orcs to become elegent pansies. :P
I think this is a sound idea, and it is indeed silly to me to suggest that being able to play a mundane instrument competently should require a bard level. I am not at all eager to see an excess of bard multiclasses in situations where they do not make sense. I think we can also make perfectly clear that this skill would be in no way a substitute for perform or the supernatural gifts that a bard possesses.
This would also help straight bards that are hungry for skillpoints, as with synergy it'd be worth 2 perform.
In favor. DMs can crack down on people who misuse it.
The only reason Perform in NWN is a bard only class skill, and in PnP it is available as a class skill to others-and a cross class for the rest-, is because NWN mechanics were designed for combat only, and a non-bard taking perform won't be able to use bardsong which is the only combat application of the skill.
The simple fact is that perform in it's basic nature is simply one of the profession skills; devoting a day to performing affords a check which provides the performer with a variable amount of income.
As a prospective new player here it is somewhat upsetting to see players attempting to pigeonhole classes into roles. Yes a soldier is primarily trained to fight, but it's absurd to suggest they cannot have a hobby on the side playing an instrument or putting on a play.
The PnP cross-classing of the skill does make it so a rogue or bard will always be able to out-perform a fighter (and at the same skill point cost) But a fighter throwing some of his scant skill points into something like perform adds flavor to the class.
Anyone can sing a song, tell a story or emote a dance, and in my experience, practically speaking other players typically don't attach greater acclaim to a character who has a +20 to his perform check, the skill is taken to support the roleplay, the roleplay isn't used to support the skill.
Well, in case some of you haven't noticed, 'entertainment' skill is already running and working ... :P
Upsetting seems a strong word, but I should point out that any "pigeon-holing" is mostly trolling to good effect.
Way to go, Calculor. Driving off new players for the sake of a joke.
God damn you second wave DMs.
We should change the "bard" class into "spellsinger" IMO