Make them not app-only. Cause, you know, it makes more sense that way.
they don't fit here.
Of course they do. We're sitting on top of a giant teleporting machine that's malfunctioning and sucking in people from all over Faerun. Everything fits.
That same argument would work for making drow, duergar and minotaurs non-app. It's desirable to keep the players of these races restricted to those the DM's can be sure are competent enough to play them correctly and responsibly.
Except Drow, Duergar, and Minotaurs all have quite significant mechanical and roleplaying advantages that don't exist for Ghostwise.
Besides, if someone was jealous that Ghostwise were getting more attention than their Stargazers, wouldn't it just make more sense to remove them outright? Or at least illustrate to people that the individuals responsible for the creation of Stargazers didn't just copy the existing Ghostwise, and were bright enough to make their own unique, distinctive group?
Because making them app-only sort of makes it seem like there's no distinction. And that people are less concerned with how people play, and more concerned with what they play.
They were made app, to encourage people to play stargazers i believe. The gazers are pretty mucht he same, onyl with faction goals and cool plots. Playing a ghostwise is pretty pointless when they are essentially gazers.
To say that they're essentially gazers is to say that the DMs essentially plagiarized an entire subrace and credited themselves with it's creation.
Actually I have heard the DMs say they would rather have people play stargazers and not ghostwise halflings. They are very very close and fit perfect in this setting so why NOT play one? The apps for them are VERY easy to get passed and they have a very cool history. I also remember Mort saying he'd script a ghostwise only disease to kill them all, because so many were playing them and not the sweet stargazers. :) :) :)
Some of us don't want to play Stargazers? Not all of us want to send in an application for one? Some of us recognize that there is a distinction between one and the other?
If it's because people were picking Ghostwise and intentionally portraying them as Stargazers, then fine. Perhaps it would be a good move to speak to those players. If it's because Mort just likes Stargazers more, that's just blatant favoritism.
Just send an app if you want to play a ghostwise. If there are so few and you have a reason to play one you'll surely get it aproved.
I believe another problem that cropped up were people playing ghostwise as if they were stargazers.... So. App only.
And as stated, stargazer apps are easy. Just send it in with a basic understanding of what they are and you'll probably get accepted and given a bit more information from the DMs to help you play them right.
I see no problem of playing ghostwise over gazers, once it could actually bring some culture shock between them, or a ghostwise joining gazers, taking his different points of view to the natives, being confused as gazers, hating gazers for being heretics, there's plenty of stuff to bring with one. But that doesn't mean I believe they should not have apps, a mini app perhaps would do.
MD you are being silly. App for a ghostwise then but they are VERY VERY close to the same damn thing. It makes little sense to play ghostwise over a stargazer. If you wish to anyways go for it.
*EDIT*
On another note do you even know about stargazers, MD?
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;141379Just send an app if you want to play a ghostwise. If there are so few and you have a reason to play one you'll surely get it aproved.
Please read my post. Not everyone wants to app.
QuoteI believe another problem that cropped up were people playing ghostwise as if they were stargazers.... So. App only.
Again, please read. If people are being lazy and playing one race as another, then that's a problem with players. It's a problem with players that has existed as long as I've played, and it's a problem that isn't going to be fixed by setting up roadblocks.
QuoteAnd as stated, stargazer apps are easy. Just send it in with a basic understanding of what they are and you'll probably get accepted and given a bit more information from the DMs to help you play them right.
Again. Some of us don't
want to apply to play Stargazers. Some of us want to play plain old Ghostwise. There is a difference. If you aren't aware of that, then there happens to be a lot of reading you may or may not be interested in.
Edit:
QuoteOn another note do you even know about stargazers, MD?
Yes.
QuoteMD you are being silly. App for a ghostwise then but they are VERY VERY close to the same damn thing. It makes little sense to play ghostwise over a stargazer. If you wish to anyways go for it.
Then we're admitting that EfU's ripped off something and passed it off as it's own for no good reason? Worse, that something Ed Greewood made up is being ripped off?
Well, I'm one of those players with application-phobia, so I always tend to think of non application characters (the main issue for me is not even fear of not getting approved, it is the responsibility and obligation of having to do shit, having to involve players, and having to stick with the character, what if I get sick of it?)
However, I don't think special flavored races should be application free ... If you want it real badly to play a ghostwise, and you are into their culture and all, writing a mini app should be a pleasure, and this should not be an issue. Half of the effort you spent writing this post, if spent in an app, would get your ghostwise approved, I'm sure.
I think they should stay app only to encourage players to play a race that is nearly the same in so many way to one that fits in perfectly with the island.
Quote from: putrid_plum;141394I think they should stay app only to encourage players to play a race that is nearly the same in so many way to one that fits in perfectly with the island.
So, your view of application system is encourage players to play certain races?
Well. Ghostwise are flavored in that they have a history and culture, but the same thing can be said for the many other subraces that aren't application only.
Like the Sun Elves, who primarily occupy the elf-only island of Evermeet. Or the Wild Elves. Or Wood Elves. I listed them separately because despite superficial similarities, they are apparently both distinct and, surprise! app-free.
Then we have the rest of the Halflings. By which I mean Strongheart and Lightfoot. Which again, most people fail to distinguish from one another, despite wide cultural gaps. Still, app-free. You could play a dog-riding cavalryman from Luiren and, oh look, no app!
Oh well, I guess it's not like we don't already have a slew of app-only races that nobody ever bothers with.
Quote from: MithrilDragon;141396Well. Ghostwise are flavored in that they have a history and culture, but the same thing can be said for the many other subraces that aren't application only.
Like the Sun Elves, who primarily occupy the elf-only island of Evermeet. Or the Wild Elves. Or Wood Elves. I listed them separately because despite superficial similarities, they are apparently both distinct and, surprise! app-free.
Then we have the rest of the Halflings. By which I mean Strongheart and Lightfoot. Which again, most people fail to distinguish from one another, despite wide cultural gaps. Still, app-free. You could play a dog-riding cavalryman from Luiren and, oh look, no app!
Oh well, I guess it's not like we don't already have a slew of app-only races that nobody ever bothers with.
You've got a good point there ...
By this argument all creatures can be app free. Don't do it.
Well, I'm sure there is a good reason for it to need an application. Maybe the 'feral' thing, but not enforcing players choose Stargazers.
Quote from: Equinox;141373They were made app, to encourage people to play stargazers i believe. The gazers are pretty mucht he same, onyl with faction goals and cool plots. Playing a ghostwise is pretty pointless when they are essentially gazers.
They aren't the same. They are both primitive and have cultural habits that are totally unique. If people aren't interested in Stargazers and would prefer to play a regular Halfling then I doubt it's because of anything but a lack of interest in the Stargazers. Their numbers surely have not gone up since this change.
I kind of prefer applications for most sub-races. Most people may call it elitist, but it just leads to people spending more time thinking out their character concepts and researching the race.
It makes for a more cohesive tie to the setting we're in.
It's not because Mort likes them more, you dolt.
It's because HOWLAND likes them more.
Take it up with him.
I think that leaving a subrace which is rarely played correctly, which can't be given justice in the mechanical confines of NWN, and which is rare already in the Forgotten Realms as application only, is a good idea. I support the change and would like it to remain. It doesn't strike me as lazy DMing.
That's like saying the DMs should leave exploits in the module instead of removing them, and just ban players who make use of the exploit.
I do understand the difference between the situation and the example I provide. I do not, however, agree on any level that requiring players to apply for Ghostwise is Lazy DMing.
Really, there is no excuse not to apply for a Ghostwise if that's what you want to play. I imagine an application literally could be passed if it consisted entirely of: "I want to play a Ghostwise Halfling, because it's a Race I like. Here are some loose details on who my character is."
A case could be made, maybe, about the turn-around time for Applications.
I think, instead, what I would propose is a compromise: Let it be that a player just needs to ask permission to play a Ghostwise on IRC, and get a DM to flag them for entry into the Gameworld in the Starter/Holding Area.
When the server started, we were spammed with ghostwise halflings, because playing naturalistic pygmies on a wild area was a nice idea.
However, Stargazers should be the dominant halfling subrace in our setting as far as we are concerned, hence why this was made to encourage people to play stargazers instead of ghostwise.
Stargazer could become non-app. as far as I am concerned. . .
that sounds like a good idea to me but considering I'm one of those app-phobic people it doesn't mean HALF as much... took me a month to get the courage to ask to play a GOBLIN!
I strongly agree with Mort.
"Stargazer could become non-app. as far as I am concerned. . ."
If gazers were non-app, it would increase PC numbers and greatly enhance the ability of individuals to pursue faction goals. This would allow them to be a more viable force on the server without requiring very much DM interaction.
The benefits of playing this app-only subrace which belongs to a minor DM faction that has had minimal DM support are currently far overshadowed by the IC obstacles. I'll qualify this statement by pointing out that the lack of DM assistance is nobody's fault as the two DMs that would likely have taken care of this were occupied IRL and unable to help out.
And I will say that the subrace is great fun from an RP perspective, which is why I wanted to play one.
In short form, if the gazers are to be an integral part of the server - and the DMs have invested a ton of time in their creation and lots of awesome background story - then we need more of them. Or, the few that are approved will hopefully merit more DM assistance and/or interaction for the good of the server as a whole.
Either way, make a stargazer people! The app will likely be approved, and the Eagle Pipes work now!
Quote from: Gwydion;141562I strongly agree with Mort.
Either way, make a stargazer people! The app will likely be approved, and the Eagle Pipes work now!
YES
If they were made non-app, I'd like to see a reason why these xenophobic munchkins suddenly start popping up with greater frequency around civilized areas.
Or maybe the opposite effect would happen, since they would become more self-reliant and we wouldn't see them as often? Both sides of the argument have merit, imo, and should be wisely considered before changing things.
If these were made non-app, then I believe it would be nice for the information on specific tribes were made for all to see, with certain Stargazer tribes still being application only.
I honestly don't think you would see more of them outside of small groups now and then. However, where would it stop? It's perfectly feasible by this reasoning that Goblins could be non-app since they have their own town nearby and are currently tolerated.
The main thing I think is to be sure that people understand they aren't protected by laws since they aren't citizens. If that's made clear then I don't really care either way. My whole point was that they -are- different from ghostwise in many ways and making those app only has obviously not done anything for active Stargazer numbers.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;141592If these were made non-app, then I believe it would be nice for the information on specific tribes were made for all to see, with certain Stargazer tribes still being application only.
Yeah. Like Toad tribe. And Flayers. >.>
Personally, and I know this is just my opinion, but I feel basic apps (those that don’t need extra work or scripting by DM’s) should remain but be a bit more lenient to be approved. Somebody showing enough enthusiasm to write the app means that they are willing to try. And if they’re going to be watched anyway then how hard is it to warn them first and kill em off second if they don’t play the PC to par. Perhaps on an ECL basis, a zero ECl should be a cake-walk app, an ECL 1 a bit harder, ECL 2 or 3 difficult and near impossible. Personally, I think the judgment of the DM’s (or admin) is a bit biased based on how they want a PC to be played. If I put in an app saying I want to play a drow that tries his damndest NOT to talk to people and hides a lot and doubt he’ll live past 5th level it would probably be rejected on some silly notion that drow want to reek havoc and get involved. Personally I think most lone drow would tend to avoid mingling… heh, I’,m rambling about drow… Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is it should be the player that breathes life into the app PC not the DM’s. If the character fails it fails (kill it, DM’s can do that), if it doesn’t, well then you have a good, well played PC.
Were I a DM I would approve MD for a ghostwise Halfling based on this thread alone.
Quote from: Cerberus;141602Personally, and I know this is just my opinion, but I feel basic apps (those that don’t need extra work or scripting by DM’s) should remain but be a bit more lenient to be approved. Somebody showing enough enthusiasm to write the app means that they are willing to try. And if they’re going to be watched anyway then how hard is it to warn them first and kill em off second if they don’t play the PC to par. Perhaps on an ECL basis, a zero ECl should be a cake-walk app, an ECL 1 a bit harder, ECL 2 or 3 difficult and near impossible. Personally, I think the judgment of the DM’s (or admin) is a bit biased based on how they want a PC to be played. If I put in an app saying I want to play a drow that tries his damndest NOT to talk to people and hides a lot and doubt he’ll live past 5th level it would probably be rejected on some silly notion that drow want to reek havoc and get involved. Personally I think most lone drow would tend to avoid mingling… heh, I’,m rambling about drow… Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is it should be the player that breathes life into the app PC not the DM’s. If the character fails it fails (kill it, DM’s can do that), if it doesn’t, well then you have a good, well played PC.
Were I a DM I would approve MD for a ghostwise Halfling based on this thread alone.
First... how annoying picking white.
Second, who says that's not already how these apps go? Nobody says they take 3 weeks to get approved for a basic race app. But MD's problem was that he did not want to app at all. He wanted nothing to do with the process, no matter how simple it might have been.
Instead he rage quit after what, 2 days of this thread? Because he didn't want to App?
That tells me there was something far more problematic on his end, whatever that may be. This thread was just a silly way to attempt to make a point without just coming out and saying it.
Edit: And for reference... my last app took 2 days total. My stargazer app before that took roughly the same. Not even that because I usually post apps at night. They are then taken off into the private section by the next morning, and approved by the following night. Even the app I had rejected only took about 2 days to have it rejected. The DM's are on top of these. They really are not hard or time consuming.
Quote from: Cerberus;141602Personally, I think the judgment of the DM’s (or admin) is a bit biased based on how they want a PC to be played.
Also. Yes. Of course it is biased. They don't want good drow running around giving hugs and they don't want a million half dragon warriors and clerics running a muck overpowering everything in sight. They are trying to balance things and keep -certain- subrace rare. Not all. Some they just want to be certain you have a very basic idea of what you're getting into.