EFUPW Forums

It has been a good two weeks since the party system was disabled. Now we need to decide whether this was a good decision or if we should revert.

The poll is informal and only to give a general idea of the core playerbase's opinion. If you care enough that you want to be sure we've heard you you'll have to say why you feel one way or the other (not just yay or nay). And if all you have to say is yay or nay, or variations thereof ("awesome," "sweet," "retarded" etc.), don't say anything at all; just vote. That said, you're welcome to quote and otherwise repeat what others have said. I'll post my thoughts later today.

I had my own doubts when the system was implemented.  However, after working with it and adjusting to the system on both DM and scripted quests, I would say that it does what it is intended to do.  It cuts down most metagaming except for the most mild, non-threatening sort.  It forces good party management, and better dungeon-crawling tactics.

While I initially thought it would make for an even larger culture shock to new players, a few friends started playing here for the first time post-change and they told me that they actually liked the system as well and that it wasn't really any harder to adjust to than the challenge of the EfU setting as a whole.

I vote for keeping it in.

With all of the bugs worked out and everything tweaked this system is amazing. It provides a depth to playing that is impossible otherwise. The factors of getting lost or having allies suddenly disappear are probably my favorite and I feel that they open up some awesome opportunities for RP. I also highly enjoy playing a stealth character and not having my allies creeping up right behind me with use of the mini-map, often times even asking if I'm nearby still or whatnot.

Most concerns seemed to be based off that this system worked differently than normal when in reality almost everything works in an identical fashion outside of getting / receiving a quest and even then it often make sense to meet the quest giver in person.

I highly suggest keeping it in.

I find EfU much more interesting with the system. There is no need for me to state the benefits because they are so obvious. No metagaming hp, ab and all that.

The only addition I think there should be is a large and flamboyant journal entry that will inform new and returning players on how the system works. That would make it easier for those who are not used to it and those who do not check the forums.

I don't even miss the party system. At some points, okey, it might make finding party member a bit messy, but hey, that makes it more funnier. Can't be a mindreader.

Keep it, doesn't harm gaming in my opinion. Makes things more interesting.

While I recognize the benefits, I dislike the feeling of solitude it brings with it. The community feel to the game is more or less gone, and now we just walk around alone.

I prefer the parties to be there, to allow for the harmless forming of groups during slow hours, as it is undoubtedly so that having a party of five, even though you're not gathered, makes the server feel less empty.

Except for the loneliness of Listen in Silence, I agree with all said. After these two weeks, I, now, can't see myself playing other way, it feels like an entirely new game experience, in a positive way.

After having experienced it for awhile now, it feels perfectly normal. I've adjusted, and have no problems with the new system.  Any problem that I thought existed have been proven false, or have worked themselves out for the most part.

My only added suggestion would be that the ally system needs more work.  I'd like it to be tied more closely to banners, so that I can set an entire banner faction to ally.  I'd also add an enemy system so that I can auto-hostile certain people all the time.  And I'd set it so I can ally or enemy someone without them standing nearby, as well as have the ability to view my ally / enemy list and remove individuals from it.

Not sure if that belongs in this thread, although both systems were introduced together.

I got to say...I like it alot.  I had some doubts initially on it working properly, but it seems to be working smooth in application.  I truely enjoy how characters can totally bluff their ways into adventering groups.  I was tinkering around with a monk who pretended to be a wizard and just about everyone bought it.  Cool stuff.  I love it.

I vote against it being kept disabled. I simply like having a party. Like LiS said, it makes this feel more like a community then always walking around by yourself. It also makes exploring with other stealth characters (especially in extremely dangerous places) far too difficult to be fun.

I voted Nay.  I miss the feeling of being on a team that came with having parties.  Also, as BoomDaddyBP mentioned, as a stealth character it is extramely hard to get around when you and your pals are in stealth mode.  I don't think that adds to the realism, it just intensifies the limitations of the gaming engine.

The system encourages such broader communication and awareness with others, works nearly without flaw, stops the mindless drivvel of party chat, and ends a great deal of casual metagaming. This system is slick.

I would like to see a transition warning system that tells you if you pass people on transitions.... But besides this I am 100% in love with this system. The lack of OOC community is to me one of the systems biggest boons.

It is difficult to say whether the system will draw more people to play here or turn them off.  For experienced nwn players it is probably a plus to try something different.
 
Personally I like the system as it forces people to pay attention to in-character things that the party system allowed them to ignore previously.  Are allies nearby, in combat, injured, dead? Now you have to find out for yourself instead of the engine doing it for you, which is mostly a good thing.

Quote from: Gippy;140929The system encourages such broader communication and awareness with others, works nearly without flaw, stops the mindless drivvel of party chat, and ends a great deal of casual metagaming. This system is slick.

I would like to see a transition warning system that tells you if you pass people on transitions.... But besides this I am 100% in love with this system. The lack of OOC community is to me one of the systems biggest boons.

It has simply changed the manner of mindless OOC.  It has also lead to some strange IC conversations. Like ... telling a group of 5 heavily armed warriors to crowd around this poor farmer while he explains about his cattle. Don't know about you but I'd be a wee bit nervous if I were the farmer in that situation.

Now, this can be resolved with some minor tweaking. For instance, the radius of the quest pickup could be increased. By doing this, perhaps make one of those fancy yellow transition messages pop up to give an ooc warning that you are now in range to receive X quest. OR, lower all quests to require 2 people for pickup, and add an AoE quest add option on the quest tool. Although, it really doesn't take long to do a single select on each person ... Just rambling here a bit.

Also, there always seems to be a good deal of //chatter after quest pickup. Everyone making sure they have the quest. This, I know, is mostly a player problem and they just need to learn to send a tell to the party leader if they didn't receive it. But, still, I doubt this will change any time soon.

Also, some good IG documentation of this should be implemented. Definately in the starting area, and perhaps even in the journal. Just to get new players associated with the idea. I know it doesn't take long to get used to, but it would be nice to have a bit of a pre warning.

Scared to death at first and in fact I purposed to NOT log in during the first few days of its implementation  to avoid the onslaught of character deaths I was sure would come before the bugs were worked out.

Now, I love it except for a few tweaks of play that PLAYERS have yet to work out to make it go more smoothly, realistically, and fairly without overt metagaming being needed:

1. Everyone should just OOC cluster around questgivers - PLEASE do it, and don't feel all gay or anything because we have to huddle so close to ensure everyone gets the quest.

2. Stay together with your group on quests!  Collectors (like me!) are losing on XP regularly because folks are maintaining the old strategy of running ahead while the collector lags behind.  It's unfair to us as players and one of these days (if not already) some DM is going to gank us for lagging behind the group and it will all be YOUR faults you gung-ho frontliners.  And realistically, it's probably not real realistic to separate a group like that on a  dungeon crawl.

3. Learn your maps.  Several times while walking from place to place or after establishing a meeting point our "parties" have gotten separated and it becomes clear who knows where things are and who doesn't.  It appears as if many folks have just been using their mini map radar to stay in line with everyone else.

4. Learn those voice codes for needing help or healing - or at least hotkey a text emote if your voiceset doesn't support it.  Party healers can't always have a finger on TAB all the time to see who needs healing.

It has some minor set backs, such as making healing allies and sending tells a bit more annoying, and a big set back: not being able to see the stealthed buddy. And doesn't have any truly relevant pluses: reduce metagaiming only, wich i personally don't care much about (i do think you guys care too much about it).

But i don't really mind it. It's the same really. Keep it or take it, i'm fine with either.

Disclaimer: Much as I would like, I can't claim my post is unbiased. It happens that I think this was a very poor management decision and although I have tried to keep this post relatively neutral it does, to an extent, reflect my point of view. For instance, I have claimed that trap behaviour cannot be modified (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139382&postcount=37). This is not true -- trap behaviour can be modified, and even easily. However, it can only be done in one way and there is absolutely no good excuse for doing so (it involves editing 30+ unique scripts, some of you will understand but I'm not going to explain here why that's bad).

A lot of work -- good work -- has gone into this change, but we do not want you to suck up (in fact, it can get really annoying to see you praise every single little change and event because it can make the serious stuff seem less significant). Nevertheless, what has been attempted... well, I'm inclined to say it's impossible -- or at least, should be.

Now, I have a suspicion, I'm sure due to my cynical nature, that the majority's initial reaction is a direct result of the idea that lots of time invested + visually drastic changes = great. Part of me wants to be wrong, but either way, that is not the right attitude. Look beyond the pretty lights, not to the things that do work, but to the things that don't work, and ask yourself if the price is still worth it.

Below are some of the indisputable facts (see above about my comment on trap behaviour) resulting from the disabling of parties. You will have to decide for yourself whether you believe these to be pros or cons.

• All map metagaming has been eliminated. Same with hovering the cursor over a party member's portrait.However, in some cases the map serves as a legitimate extension of senses otherwise penalised by engine limitations (e.g. far-clipping and 90^o FoV). It is not purely an OOC convenience tool as it has been made out to be.
  
• Disease/poison/Con penalty status metagaming has been eliminated. Incidentally, anyone who has been on the infested sewer quest of EfU knows that constantly emoting this is about as interesting and deep as emoting breathing, in part because the same two spells cure all common ailments.
• You can't judge a character's approximate power level by comparing their HP with class abilities.
• While in a party, the engine sends the same data to all members. This is done for all members, leading to an exponential amount of data being sent back and forth all the time. This causes lag when there are several large (~8 man) parties, in particular during large scale events. However, it is never a problem during normal server load and that's probably 95% or more of our uptime, and breaking up large parties into many small parties helps a lot. The mere presence of many creatures (including NPCs), as illustrated recently (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32086), also causes severe lag on its own regardless of parties.
  
• Combat information from other people will not show up in your log anymore. Personally, this is something I find extremely confusing for what little combat I've seen since the change but some people seem to think it's a good idea.
• You can't target party members via their portraits. This does not discourage OOC communication, it just makes it more tedious to handle. It also plays a smaller role in combat.
• Everything takes longer because you need to relay a lot of information the engine previously handled automatically.
• OOC chat has not diminished. In fact, I suspect there is more of it now, and certainly much more in the Talk channel. The fact that the Party channel broadcasts to the DM channel is not for you to worry about, we can filter it out with two clicks. On the other hand, some have claimed it has also led to deeper RP.
• Animal Empathy will not stop an already attacked creature from attacking. This is faction related and cannot be changed.
• Traps target everyone and must be flagged to be sure the whole party can see them. This behaviour cannot be changed (for instance, to only target hostile PCs). Due to the somewhat clumsy nature of NWN's location reporting and perfectly square traps this can make traps so ineffective as to be useless. Their behaviour towards NPCs has not changed, nor will it.
• The loss of a designated party leader introduces a slew of logistical problems, including, but not limited to:
[hide="Listy"]
• Does it matter who takes and turns in a quest?
• Can two people take the same quest separately at the same time, and if so, what if they meant to go together?
• What if you are added to a quest you don't want to go on (right now but maybe later), and what if it's one-time only?
• What if somebody you don't want on the quest is standing too close to the quest giver and you don't notice her being added?
• Must you stand next to the quest taker when turning in a quest?
• What if you have an old and used quest tool and decide to use it again when somebody else is taking the quest?
• What if someone decides to abandon a quest?
• What if the party leader wants to kick a party member?
• What if the party leader leaves or disconnects without passing on the quest tool?
• What if somebody you don't consider an ally marks you an ally?
• What if two characters have the same name and you mark one of them an ally?
• Must somebody be an ally to go with you on a quest?
• With proximity based XP, do archers and spellcasters get shafted? If not, what's the point?
[/hide]

• It has become extremely difficult for a group of stealthed characters to move as a unit.
• The system is counter-intuitive and inconvenient. It resembles a hak -- something we have been fundamentally against since launch almost four years ago -- in that it isn't optional. It causes confusion amongst new and old players alike (I've seen several cases of people not understanding the purpose of the ally list, and I didn't at first either); relies on tedious chat commands (with no copy or history, even the shortest chat command becomes tedious); and won't work for characters with non-English symbols in their names (something NWN otherwise supports). Make a single mistake, either spelling or proximity, and you'll have to retype the command.
• A perfectly functional, self-maintaining system, quick and easy to use and learn, has been replaced with an error-prone, unoptimized (arguably, unoptimizable) system with a much steeper learning curve and a bunch of unanswered questions. This has nothing to do with the author -- I certainly couldn't do it myself. That's just the fickle nature of NWScript and NWN in multiplayer.

Two points that have been highlighted as being in favour of this change are

• elimination of gank squads; and
• immersion

I do not see this change doing anything for either of these two points. There will be metagaming as long as there are players and the forming of gank squads hasn't gotten any more difficult (it might even have gotten easier in that you no longer invite people), you just can't necessarily tell who's in and who isn't.

As for immersion, I've been getting the feeling over the last half or so year that, on some occasions, it's like a magic word which, when invoked, will excuse any act and even harvest praise (due or undue) from players. This game is a game, it's meant to be fun. If you want to play real life, go outside (careful, Earth's a permadeath server and you have to emote breathing all the time). Point is, we can do so much more to make the game more realistic -- things we have always deliberately ignored (like eating and drinking) -- and only at the price of fun.

Almost a year ago I explained why I don't like mounts (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19567). They are big and flashy, and the moment we actually need them is the moment our mod is needlessly bloated. The argument is almost the same here: plenty good things are brought about with this change but ultimately we haven't needed it for seven years and we don't need it now, especially not when it makes the game overly complicated primarily to avoid a few cases of map metagaming. I feel so strongly about this that I can say with absolute certainty that I would have left if I wasn't a DM, and we have already lost some players because of it.

On a side note, I want to explain what [font="Courier New"]/c setally[/font] is. It is not, as many have thought, a replacement of the party system, and so it has no effect on questing. It is a tool to mark specific characters as "allies" of your character such that, when using either of the [font="Courier New"]/c hostile[/font] commands, these characters will not be set hostile. This can be pretty handy, and the good news is that it's fully compatible with the party system. Yes, that means we can keep it no matter what happens now.

I personally find the new system fun and different.  Actually having to keep track of party members on a quest is great, and the first time we lost somebody on a quest it turned out to be quite fun.

I also really like not knowing other party members HP, AB, and such.  As well as them not knowing mine.

I would imagine that it is indeed very difficult to travel in stealth groups, but I also think this could raise some interesting IC solutions and increase planning beforehand.

I have to say overall I am enjoying this change.

While I have had a lot of trouble traveling in stealth or invisibility I tell myself that if I'd invested in enough spot/listen to see my comrade this problem would not exist!

Pros and cons have been listed, so it's only a matter of priorities now.

Mine are simple:
1 -If we lost but one player because of this, revert to the old system, else we might lose more.
2-If not, now that the works been done, i rather like the change. There's a few cons, at least two major pros (more communication, less map-metagaming).

I don't think the change was WORTH all the work put into it, but then i wasn't the one doing the work so i don't care much.

PS: concerning the stealth question, i don't like the HIPS way stealthed is used most of the time anyway.

Snoteye-

Snoteye have you played a PC in the new system?  (Additionally, I think people need to go on at least 5 to 8 quests to really get a feel for it.)  I am unsure of the answer to that question, which is why I ask.  In my experience most people seem to genuinely enjoy it, and although I've encountered a few complaints and OOC bitching, most of that was limited to when it was first introduced.

I don't think most people here are sucking up; I personally voiced what I thought would be issues and problems immediately after it was implemented.  I also gave regular feedback on any issues I thought were created by the change.  Most of those issues have been addressed or worked themselves out automatically.  However, individual playing experience may vary.

I think there is some merit to people who feel that somehow the server feels more "lonely", but ultimately that is something highly subjective.  I still use tells as much as I did in the past, and it was rather easy to switch from using party portraits to send tells to using the online list - as well as the portraits in the chat window.  So it really doesn't feel more "lonely" to me.

My responses on the issues you brought forward:

QuoteFor instance, I have claimed that trap behaviour cannot be modified. This is not true -- trap behaviour can be modified, and even easily. However, it can only be done in one way and there is absolutely no good excuse for doing so (it involves editing 30+ unique scripts, some of you will understand but I'm not going to explain here why that's bad).

Traps target everyone and must be flagged to be sure the whole party can see them. This behaviour cannot be changed (for instance, to only target hostile PCs). Due to the somewhat clumsy nature of NWN's location reporting and perfectly square traps this can make traps so ineffective as to be useless. Their behaviour towards NPCs has not changed, nor will it.

This is definitely an issue.  However, here is my experience with it so far.  In all the quests that I have gone on and encountered traps my PC has been in the lead.  He has a decent search for a fighter / weapon master, and is able to spot some traps especially while in detect mode.  We move slowly, he stands in front of the group, tells the group where the traps are and then has them follow his footsteps exactly.  It has actually led to more RPing of traps.

However, the major issue dealing with traps is PC's who lay down their own traps.  This is a huge issue, however I think it makes sense in the context of the game engine.  If you lay down a trap, why should anyone (even the trap setter) be able to run across it?  One of the major issues when it came to traps was their power level, and perhaps the rules for player trap setting need to be revised for group situations due to the higher level of risk (which I think adds some balance).

Now, I have not encountered any PC's using traps as of yet.  So I cannot give any first hand experience regarding the issue.  Though due to the strict rules surrounding traps I've found that most PC's simply don't use them at all... so even if everything remains the same the issue is of some concern, but not game breaking concern.

I would however strongly limit the use of killer traps on quests (even eliminating them entirely) and perhaps make search gear more abundant on the server.  As a front liner I have found it VERY effective  for him to be able to spot traps.

QuoteAll map metagaming has been eliminated. Same with hovering the cursor over a party member's portrait.However, in some cases the map serves as a legitimate extension of senses otherwise penalised by engine limitations (e.g. far-clipping and 90o FoV). It is not purely an OOC convenience tool as it has been made out to be.

Sure, I can agree with this to an extent.  If NWN was in a first person perspective it might be different, but being in third person there are some issues.  My PC SHOULD be able to see farther head of himself than the engine allows.  I can move the camera angle around some though, but that's a pain in the ass with its own problems.

I've had some issues regarding tilesets and running through small “alley way” forest paths.  It's very hard to keep the group together there, although I think that makes sense ICly and is actually more immersive for me.  I enjoyed that, although it can be a slight pain in the OOC ass.

However, some of the engine limitations also relates to NPC's and hostiles.  My PC also shouldn't be able to spot what is directly behind him when he is facing the other direction.  So in the end I think the concern balances itself out with the benefits and limitations already provided by the engine.

QuoteDisease/poison/Con penalty status metagaming has been eliminated. Incidentally, anyone who has been on the infested sewer quest of EfU knows that constantly emoting this is about as interesting and deep as emoting breathing, in part because the same two spells cure all common ailments.

I agree about the emoting.  However, in general I have not noticed much change.  Rarely have I been in a group under the old system where, when my PC was diseased or poisoned, people ran over the cure him.  What's more... how would they know?  I find that this is more-or-less balances itself out.  I have been on a quest where the entire group was poisoned horrifically bad.  Only a handful of us had antidotes or any way to remove its effects.  My play experience was not adversely effected by not being able to see their poison / disease status.

QuoteYou can't judge a character's approximate power level by comparing their HP with class abilities.

A huge benefit in my opinion.  I will willingly admit that when it has come to PvP in the past, I've OOCly used the knowledge of other players HP to gauge their power level, and shyed away from fighting them as a result.  It made me more cautious.  This change to me is just an extension of removing the who's online list from the character selection screen.

Now, I cannot tell what level someone is or how many HP they have.  I am provided with the same benefit.  No one knows if my PC has died and lost six levels and is now ripe for a ganking... nor do they realize that I have been leveling my ass off and I am level nine.

QuoteWhile in a party, the engine sends the same data to all members. This is done for all members, leading to an exponential amount of data being sent back and forth all the time. This causes lag when there are several large (~8 man) parties, in particular during large scale events. However, it is never a problem during normal server load and that's probably 95% or more of our uptime, and breaking up large parties into many small parties helps a lot. The mere presence of many creatures (including NPCs), as illustrated recently, also causes severe lag on its own regardless of parties.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always been the type of person who created large parties.  Even for quests I knew I could beat easily with two people, I'd take eight if I could.  Now, I do favor smaller parties because it's easier to keep everyone together and communicate.

I think this will likely prove to be a huge benefit for lag during large events (which I never liked to participate in previously due to lag), but until we have one I cannot say.  I'll only reference my previous comment above.

QuoteCombat information from other people will not show up in your log anymore. Personally, this is something I find extremely confusing for what little combat I've seen since the change but some people seem to think it's a good idea.

I'm 50/50 on this.  There are advantages and disadvantages.  It's hard to tell when someone is hit with a critical, for example, and needs a fast heal.  It's also hard to tell when someone lands a critical so my PC can respond appropriately ICly.

However, it does clean up the combat log a lot.  It's easier for me to tell what my PC is doing, and I can tell when my PC lands the killing blow much easier.  Also, due to less spam, I'm more likely to see environment text triggers, which gives my PC a chance to react appropriately.

QuoteYou can't target party members via their portraits. This does not discourage OOC communication, it just makes it more tedious to handle. It also plays a smaller role in combat.

As I said previously, I talk in tells just as much as I did previously.  It's mostly idle chatter and OOC banter.  So no, it does not discourage OOC communication and while it is slightly more tedious it's something I've already adjusted too.

Still, I think the biggest issue when it comes to lack of portraits remains healing.  I cannot rush to save someone if I am not tabbing, but it's something I'm adjusting too... and really makes sense ICly, and while it may mean more deaths for some who are unlucky (that critical sneak attack to the face of the wizard) I find it slightly more immersive.  

QuoteEverything takes longer because you need to relay a lot of information the engine previously handled automatically.

This is true.  Keeping the group together does cause things to slow down noticeably, but those gaps seem to be mostly filled with RP.  I can normally do an emote or something while people try and catch up.  Or my PC can lag behind while two others move ahead.  If the group is smaller this is less of a problem, but with larger groups it becomes somewhat of a headache to keep together.  

Then you have to remember how many people are actually with the group, along with their names... yeah, I guess the moral of the story is just take your time with larger groups or take smaller groups.  The issue surrounding larger groups has been balanced out, I believe, by no longer penalizing larger groups when it comes to treasure.

QuoteOOC chat has not diminished. In fact, I suspect there is more of it now, and certainly much more in the Talk channel. The fact that the Party channel broadcasts to the DM channel is not for you to worry about, we can filter it out with two clicks. On the other hand, some have claimed it has also led to deeper RP.

Aside from taking quests, I have not really noticed this at all.  I have noticed a bit more RP as a result, however, and in some cases I've found ways (or noticed others who've found ways) to deal with things ICly.  For example, last night we did a quest and we needed more people around the quest giver.  The PC who was speaking to the quest giver asked more of us to come to him, so he could "prove" to the NPC that the group could handle the mission.  It was handled ICly.

QuoteAnimal Empathy will not stop an already attacked creature from attacking. This is faction related and cannot be changed.

This is a problem for druids and rangers.  Although I am sure some work around could be done with the animal empathy skill, right?  Maybe when an animal is empathied, it despawns and respawns as a non-hostile NPC.  For druids and rangers they could then enter a dialog with the empathied animal and with a successful AE skill check, have it become their henchman?   (The skill check could grow progressively higher as more animals are brought under the druid / ranger's control.  AE would no longer fade suddenly as it did in the past, with the animal becoming hostile again.)

QuoteThe loss of a designated party leader introduces a slew of logistical problems, including, but not limited to:

Does it matter who takes and turns in a quest?
Can two people take the same quest separately at the same time, and if so, what if they meant to go together?
What if you are added to a quest you don't want to go on (right now but maybe later), and what if it's one-time only?
What if somebody you don't want on the quest is standing too close to the quest giver and you don't notice her being added?
Must you stand next to the quest taker when turning in a quest?
What if you have an old and used quest tool and decide to use it again when somebody else is taking the quest?
What if someone decides to abandon a quest?
What if the party leader wants to kick a party member?
What if the party leader leaves or disconnects without passing on the quest tool?
What if somebody you don't consider an ally marks you an ally?
What if two characters have the same name and you mark one of them an ally?
Must somebody be an ally to go with you on a quest?

Some of those questions are things I have not considered.  However, some I think are irrelevant.

"Does it matter who takes and turns in a quest?"

This has been an issue under both the new and old system.  Nothing has changed in this regard.

"Can two people take the same quest separately at the same time, and if so, what if they meant to go together?"

Although I have not tried it, I am certain the answer to this is no.  If you mean take the quest separately at EXACTLY the right moment, I'm not sure what would happen.  However, if one person is on the quest and another group tries to join the quest - it's the same as the old system.

"What if you are added to a quest you don't want to go on (right now but maybe later), and what if it's one-time only?

What if somebody you don't want on the quest is standing too close to the quest giver and you don't notice her being added?"

This is an issue.  The quest giver tool needs to be able to remove people from the quest as well as add them.  Give it a dialog similar to how a potion cauldron works.

"Must you stand next to the quest taker when turning in a quest?"

No.  The reward system works exactly like the old one.

"What if you have an old and used quest tool and decide to use it again when somebody else is taking the quest?"

I am not sure, has anyone tested this?

"What if someone decides to abandon a quest?"

I've had this happen!  It works exactly like the old system.  When they leave the quest, it abandons it for everyone, regardless of location or distance.

"What if the party leader wants to kick a party member?"

No noticeable difference from the old system as there is no party.

"What if the party leader leaves or disconnects without passing on the quest tool?"

Then people with the quest can still take the PC who wants to join to the quest giver and say they want to add more people to the quest.  It adds more people just like the old system did, except you need to be close to the quest giver.

"What if somebody you don't consider an ally marks you an ally?"

Not a problem for you, but a problem for them if they want to set you to hostile by setting the server hostile.  See my previous post in this thread.

"What if two characters have the same name and you mark one of them an ally?"

No idea.  This needs to be tested.

"Must somebody be an ally to go with you on a quest?"

The answer to this is no - I thought it did at first, which resulted in me marking lots of people as an ally. :p  However, the ally system seems to only be useful for when you set people to hostile.  It remembers your "allies" and doesn't set them to hostile.

"With proximity based XP, do archers and spellcasters get shafted? If not, what's the point?"

Playing with the range can sort these issues out, but over all I have not heard serious OOC complaint.  I also think the range is large enough to make it irrelevant.  It only seems to penalize characters like my former character, a wizard who'd go invisible after buffing up the fighters and hide some distance from the combat to avoid death.  ...then after combat come running up to bandage them.

QuoteIt has become extremely difficult for a group of stealthed characters to move as a unit.

This is true.  However, on EfU:A  we have stealth as being semi-magical, considering you can stand right next to someone and remain perfectly hidden if they cannot spot / hear you.  In this way, it is no different than casting invisibility on the entire group, and no one drinking a see invisibility potion.  

I do not see it as an issue, and in fact I think it makes sense and balances things out.  Stealth is hugely powerful on EfU:A, and the minor penalty of not being able to see a group member in stealth... well... I'm not losing sleep over it.  They are hidden and moving silently.  You're not supposed to hear / see them.  

QuoteThe system is counter-intuitive and inconvenient. It resembles a hak -- something we have been fundamentally against since launch almost four years ago -- in that it isn't optional. It causes confusion amongst new and old players alike (I've seen several cases of people not understanding the purpose of the ally list, and I didn't at first either); relies on tedious chat commands (with no copy or history, even the shortest chat command becomes tedious); and won't work for characters with non-English symbols in their names (something NWN otherwise supports). Make a single mistake, either spelling or proximity, and you'll have to retype the command.

Since the ally system is not needed for questing, it's pretty irrelevant.  Additionally, if I am not mistaken, role-playing in a language that is not English is against the rules of EfU:  A (since this is an English speaking server).  A rule can be made that accent characters are not allowed in names, just as quotation marks shouldn't be allowed in names due to the buggyness it causes with tells.

While I think it does cause some confusion at first, it is easy to adjust to after a quest or two, and for some new players they have to adjust to our quest system anyway.  I don't think it adds a greater amount of hak-yness than the domains override.  To play a cleric of certain deities you NEED the override.

QuoteA perfectly functional, self-maintaining system, quick and easy to use and learn, has been replaced with an error-prone, unoptimized (arguably, unoptimizable) system with a much steeper learning curve and a bunch of unanswered questions. This has nothing to do with the author -- I certainly couldn't do it myself. That's just the fickle nature of NWScript and NWN in multiplayer.

See all my comments above.

QuoteTwo points that have been highlighted as being in favour of this change are
elimination of gank squads; and
immersion

I don't think this change eliminates gank squads.  :p  That's just silly.  It makes a gank squad harder to organize, and reduces its effectiveness... but it does not eliminate them.

The level of immersion is debatable and subjective.  I personally find it adds more immersion, but that largely depends on the group.  I find it more immersive in smaller groups and about the same in larger groups.  However, I have a difficult time RPing with larger groups in general (too much spam and too many people doing too many things at once).

----

I guess in closing, I have to ask the same question that I began with:  Have you played using the new system?  In the end, I find that the new system adds more positive than negative, and although you bring up some good points, some of the points make me believe that you haven't even tried it out.  

Most people I know who were against it have given it a try, and have come around.  It is not complicated.  The only real issue with the new party system surrounds taking a quest, but outside of that it's largely irrelevant.

I will not say my playing experience has become fantastically improved as a result of the change, but it has improved slightly as a result.  Mostly the improvements surround immersion as it keeps groups together during a quest.

I do not notice any huge difference between the old and new system outside of that, but individual mileage may vary.

Wow, I'm not reading that.

Snoteye and Meldred more then covered the pro's and cons, so I will simply state why I voted to keep the system in place.  This will be a lengthy post, so I voted yes, for those of you with ADD,(sarcasm and humor here, try not to get to offended), move on. :)

I started on EFU about 5 years ago. Knew nothing of roleplaying, metagamieng, ooc or ic.  I was a min/max pwrquestr who got sent to DM Jail within minutes of logging in for killing npc grey dwarf miners just outside of Sancturary,-my reason- because I was a dwarf. Made perfect "ic" sense to me at the time.The DM kindly explained why it was not acceptable to gank uncontrolled npc's. I am still guilty of a min/max pwrqest char once in a while, when I want to try out new quests(usually in the 1-3 range). The char never lasts a day.  I learned everything about how to RP on a PW server here. I like to think I have gotten decent at it.

 The change, while a bit more difficult for keeping track of stealthed chars (which, we kinda should not be able to do, if they were actually ninja like in their stealth) and the animal empathy issues needing a fix.,has taken the whole expereince to another level.  Metagameing seems to be, to  me at least,  no longer an issue.  PVP, RP,questing etc -for me- I no longer take these things into account. I see others acting the same when it comes to groups and quests, the optimum party seems to be abandoned, and the result is a much more challengeing and fun quest experience. If your frontliners do run ahead as you smash the quest, there is a very real chance you will loose your party, as the others are slowly ganked by a sly DM goblin assasin, or the MoB you missed in your rush to "Crush the Quest!". It forces us to slow down, and again I think a good thing. I act as my char would, 99.9% of the time, as opposed to perhaps 75% before. A reflection on me, perhaps, but it has led to an improvement..  I am not afraid to admit that until very recently, I took ooc knowledge of a char into account for pvp. It took alot to overcome that self preservation instinct of knowing as much as one could. This has been fixed for the entire server, some may not have needed it, but a welcome thing for me. It has really uped the emersion for me.

 I took a day, and played on another server, with all the old party stuff, and I must say, alot more allowable metagame features of the oringinal engine.  In that one day, (actually only a few hours) an individual kept logging in diffrent accounts and PKing everyone in sight with a min/maxed char.  Then, another began ninja looting quest rewards with no RP claiming his dieties alignement allowed him too OOC. This is no slight on the server, and the DM's handled it with amazeing speed and professionalisim, but it seems to me, that those that truly wish for a RP server, in the purest form, a chance to become 100% there chars while playing, this system is what acheives that.  Will it chase away some players, yes. Certainly the griefers I encoutnered will be detered , and I think that is not necessarily a bad thing.  

As I said before, there are some issues that will need be addressed, but after a 5 year learning curve, this system seems like iceing on a RP cake, not arsenic.  I also believe, that with the changes, many of those server hopping looking for a true RP enviorment (and there are many, EFUA just needs a bit of publicity agian) will find EFUA and stay.

I voted yes for two simple reasons.

Anything that sparks this much controversy is good for the server.

if you're me, you metagame a lot and get banned for it. This won't happen anymore.

I want to quickly point out that my last post represents my views as an individual person and potential player, not a DM. There are a few points I could not have raised without intimate knowledge of the technical side of things but most I could have raised regardless.

@Meldread: It was never my intention for this thread to turn into back-and-forth discussion/bickering about the topic (your post is fine, don't worry) so I'm not going to offer counters to any of your points. I'll just answer your question: No, I haven't played. I haven't played because I haven't needed to. My issues are primarily of a nature that it's not a matter of "getting used to it." It's the whole design philosophy itself that bothers me.

And Animal Empathy can't be modified.

Strongly in favor of the new system

Honestly, I don't mind the new system. What I've been trying to answer for myself, though, is has my experience really been changed all that much? Do we need it?

To say that it stops metagaming of a certain kind would be accurate. But I'd also say that it still exists in a slightly different form. /c diagnose is a simple enough way to discover whether or not another character is diseased/poisoned (not sure whether this relies on Heal skill) and I've used that command before the no-party system was implemented just as much as presently. But as far as portrait healing goes before and after...if you've ever been healed mid-combat nowadays without asking for it or emoting, chances are that somebody hit the TAB button, saw "Badly Injured", and tossed a CSW your way. Still metagaming, just slightly different.

Ganksquads/Maps: seeing as how a good number of people can be mature about PvP, and handle their conflicts like adults, the no-party system seemed like a widespread solution to a problem that only a quarter of the populace has shown. Not knowing where your party member is getting his ass kicked is a good thing, yes. Not knowing if somebody crashed during a transition or in the heat of combat and just having them 'disappear' is not.
Stealth character having to 'check in' with the rest of the party every few screens is an inconvenience- not a major one, but still there. And in situations where everyone scatters, drinks invis potions and runs away, it's rather difficult to find everyone again. I suppose battle tactics will have to be planned out more- "meet here if things go south"- and that's a good thing, but it's a change that has been slow to come.

Immersion: I can't argue with this. The no-party system definitely brings more immersion. I'm glad that there's less lag, though there are still cases where some people get an extreme amount of lag in an area while the others do not. I'm glad that if my party members should run ahead while I'm stuck elsewhere, I have literally no idea where they ran to. I don't think it's cut down on OOC conversation, even with Party chat gone. All these things are well and good, but were they needed? I really don't know.

A journal entry would be very helpful if this system is being kept, btw. I had to explain this system to another player IG and it was kind of a nightmare as far as where to begin.

The Doc approves of this new system.

Yay, i like it. Less metaing, moar rp.

QuoteAs for immersion, I've been getting the feeling over the last half or so year that, on some occasions, it's like a magic word which, when invoked, will excuse any act and even harvest praise (due or undue) from players. This game is a game, it's meant to be fun. If you want to play real life, go outside (careful, Earth's a permadeath server and you have to emote breathing all the time). Point is, we can do so much more to make the game more realistic -- things we have always deliberately ignored (like eating and drinking) -- and only at the price of fun.

This. We're a server of roleplaying elites, eyeing our surroundings fearfully in search of the "Metagamers" and the "Griefers" who, judging from forum posts and mirc conversations are abundant. People don't metagame as much as everyone thinks they do! We're all quite capable of just knowing all these things the previous system would tell us without having our characters act upon it.

I much prefer looking at my party list and seeing that the fellow who suddenly disappeared is actually at 8/32 hp in SQA  - Troglodyte Caves - Underwater while I panic and go "Holy shit where'd jimmy go?!" than not know if the player crashed, if he got insta killed and fugued, if he's drowning, if he's got lost or if he just stumbled upon some spawn that'd wandered into an obscure corner.

Since the new system was put in place, I haven't had a lot of opportunity to quest, partly because I can't be here much this time of year and partly because when I do log in, the server seems to be lacking of PC's.  In my limited use of the system, the only thing I have seen as an actual plus is the fact that you can see more of the screen without having your party pics in view.  Granted, I haven't played a healer.  My biggest concern, other than the afore mentioned problems with AE, is that, because of my limited time on the server, my PC can get lost rather easily, limiting me to playing PC's that can't find their way around without the use of a lot of OOC tells etc...  Personally, I don't see where that helps immersion.  When playing a PC such as a ranger and your party gets into trouble, you OOC'ly take a wrong turn coming back from a place you have been a dozen times, you die, plain and simple, for the sake of immersion.  Even if you play a PC that maps the entire island, when a half dozen pissed off ogres are chasing you, it is unlikely that you will have time to read a map.
  Perhaps time will prove me wrong, but I don't see this as a good change for the casual, part time player.

I voted Yay on this system because I have felt that immersion is increased without the party bar over on the side.  However, there are several "cons" to the new system.  Snoteye pointed out most of them, but here are two that really bother me:

-Increase in loot skimming/ninja looting/whatever you want to call it.  I have noticed that since the new system was implemented, a few players are very prone to running around like idiots hitting every storage chest, then mysteriously disappearing.  I have noticed more incidents of this in the last two weeks than in my last two years playing EfU.

-Accidental closing of quests on groups who just opened a quest.  A few times, I have been in a group where one person was left out of the quest.  That person then runs up to the placeable/NPC and tries to take the quest.  Because they are clicking too fast without reading the options, they end up cancelling the quest for the party that just took it, which is very frustrating.  Again, something that very rarely happened with the old party system.  I have not seen this happen, but with the placement of some questgivers in areas where PCs might naturally be hanging out, this could also result in people being invited into quests they don't want to be a part of, which will preclude them taking the quest later if they would like to.

Quote from: Listen in SilencePeople don't metagame as much as everyone thinks they do!

Respectfully disagree. It can be difficult to get over a certain "play to win" mentality, and not being able to see mechanics seems to reduce this significantly.

Having quested and explored a great deal before and after this change I can say that the learning curve was 10min while we figured out what setally does and I greatly prefer this change. I assure you I am not merely sucking up to a slimy francophone.

I've seen a lot of arguments for either or that have me convinced to a degree, but at the same time I feel it's too soon to decide. And then there's the fear I may not form more of an opinion with time rather than just get used to it.

But that aside, what comes to mind is trust. I would like to believe you do not have to remove all means of metagaming to end it. I expect the playerbase of this server to be mature enough to handle themselves. After all this is a game where we bend past the engine's limitations with our roleplay, so we should also be able to disregard the parts of the engine that are undesired and considered metagaming.

It can feel like, you know, "Make half-orc and greataxes app only because otherwise someone might go Kodax Haun on us."

Try to keep in mind that this wasn't done as a punishment to thwart metagamers that now everyone has to endure.  This is a new server feature that has the potential to do a lot for the game and make it better by providing a unique NWN and role-playing experience.

It would be very helpful to this discussion if more of the "No" votes spoke up about why they liked the old system better.

(I voted "Yes.")

I don't quest that much, but have done a few quests under the new system.  While I thought it did add to the 'realism'  I didn't like 2 aspects:

(1) As others mentioned, it felt very lonely to me.  I very quickly missed the feeling of 'teaming up' that simply comes from having a list of portraits at your side.  (Even though I very,very rarely use Party chat for anything)

(2) I think it is a hurdle for new players to the server.

I do appreciate the work, but it doesn't quite suit me personally.

I voted no.
I liked the old system. It was more smooth imo. I like being able to see the pictures of my party buddies in the upper left part of the screen, and not have to worry about who I am allied with.
I have yet to pvp in this system, but it seem to me that it is more complicated since you have to mess arround with some /set allie, or whatever it is the command is.
The new system just makes the game more complicated, it is less smooth and fun. Sure you could meta-game the location of your party members, but hey they could just as easy send you a pm of their location.
In short I feel the old system was more simple and fun.

Probably in line with what has already been said, after some initial getting used to I don't find the system grossly worse/better. I find the system much less informative in general, but apparently this is in line with what more people want. I guess I like all the muggy, evil shit characters not seeing my HP, but otherwise I can't really say there's a reason I personally would prefer the new system. I can't say I miss the portraits, as most people pick ones no one else playing Neverwinter Nights has seemingly.

I don't much care either way. If someone put a gun to my head though and said choose, I'd probably go with a revert back to the old system.

I said no, because I don't believe the amount of work is worth what's achieved, and what's been achieved isn't even working properly. Remove Paralysis doesn't work, traps are made crazy difficult to use in a group, I've had numerous occasions where new or low level players have got lost on quests and died, and we had absolutely no way of helping them whatsoever. I've even had one occasion where we left and ended the quest and discovered a character we'd lost had died and just been left.

It seems to be that the main gripe against it is that the lack of abusable OOC information makes the game too "serious" or difficult.

I've been around the RP server block and having played in this new, excellent system (not sucking up), it has increased my immersion and enjoyment of the game by a large amount.

I'll tell you, even I would subconciously metagame levels based on AB and Hit points shown in the party sidebar, even though on the concious level i attempted to block that info out. Now that this is gone, i'm confused why people would want to go back to the mental gymnastics of the last system.

It seems to me, and no offense whatsoever to the people who might disagree, that some people like the metagamable information, and have gotten accustomed to it, and/or don't see metagaming, or meta of this type, as a serious issue on a roleplaying server, and they are completely entitled to their opinions. Again, no offense at all to the people who disagree, but this is my observation.


And to Skillfocuspwn...

QuoteI've even had one occasion where we left and ended the quest and discovered a character we'd lost had died and just been left.

This kind of made me chuckle and wonder if you're for serious... That is the punishment for in character incompetence. You want to be able to metagame to lessen the severity of your IC mistakes? Again, if i was travelling with a group who forgot about me and left me to die, i would probably feel a bit vengeful, let alone "making war" on them, and never travel with them again.

Just my 2 cents.


I've also noticed most of the people i play with seem to be supportive of the new system, and i've only heard a handful of dissenters. I too hope the bunch of people who are in dissent explain their feelings, i'm interested and i really just want everyone to have fun.

I really like sobe-real's take on this.

My support on sobe-real's words. Thumbs up.

I must admit I am rather surprised at the large number of people who voted nay.  Based upon my play experience in game the change has gained varying amounts of praise.  Of course, one individuals experiences cannot be indicative of the entire server.

However, I have spoken to a few people on IRC who claim to have voted no, and it seems that at least some of the nay votes are coming from people who haven't really tried the system.  That certainly is not true for all, and I am not certain what percentage of the vote it makes up.

I think those that voted nay, and have not actually played through five to eight quests under the new system should do so... then come back and give us their opinion.  I know when the changes were introduced there were a large number of people who ranged from skeptical (myself) to verging on hatred of the change... but again, based upon my play experiences virtually everyone has come around to either neutral or in favor of the new system.

So... just give it a shot!

Why do we play? To have fun.
Imo the old system was easy and straight forward(maybe becourse it is what we have been using for the past many years)

The new system is in my view complicated and therefor less fun. The more you change the game the more time you have to spend understanding it. All I want to do is play, not read about all the fancy new voice commands.
The changes aint horrible or anything, but I still feel the old system was more smooth and therefore easy to use, wich translate into more fun.

As a new player for EfU, I never had any issue with the party system. I've never had to do any commands, I just stay near my group.
 
Would I have liked it a few times? Yes, when I've been bleeding out and nobody else had transitioned yet. But hey, I learnt from it.

I really like it, save for the fact I was stuck at -9 stablized and had to wait god knows how long as the rest of the party just walked along.

Along with elimination of the login screen, one of the best implementations yet.

Definitely keep.

Quote from: Disco;141110The new system is in my view complicated and therefor less fun. The more you change the game the more time you have to spend understanding it. All I want to do is play, not read about all the fancy new voice commands.

If you're using voice commands you're doing it wrong. :p

Seriously, "complicated" is subjective, but I don't think most people who've used the system several times find it complicated at all.  

To use the new party system:  Find people to go questing with, and have everyone stand near the quest giver while someone gets the quest.  If someone doesn't get the quest, whoever spoke to the quest giver has an item that they can easily add new people to the quest with - point and click.

That's it.  No voice commands.

----

The whole /c setally voice command is only to make things simple when it comes to using /c hostile all.  It is a command that you never need to use, ever.

Even though I personally enjoyed playing with the new system, I voted nay, and Snoteye pretty much sums it up for me.

I do have an additional observation and a follow on that may be completely off-base, but I'll throw it out there:

It feels to me that many changes that occur here in EfU:A tend to optimize things for those who are good at the mechanics of the engine.  That may not be the most accurate way to put it, but generally those of us/you who are good at the game either benefit the most from these changes or are feeling the least negative impact.

For those of us looking for that extra challenge, for those of you with shit hot computers that run everything smoothly with no lag or jerkiness, for those of you who are just abso-fuckin-lutely elite gamers... changes like this are SWEET.

But for those who aren't as good or who have hardware issues or are just looking for some fun RP without feeling like they gotta be PvP gods or gain elite twitch-skills, a lot of these changes are overly cumbersome.

Not everyone falls neatly into these two categories, and there are definitely some folks who are good at the game but find the system cumbersome and some folks who aren't mechanically awesome but like all the neat new stuff...

So that's my observation.  The follow on:

Often times, those people who feel weaker in their gaming abilities or feel that the spotlight shines often on our elite PvPers, RPers, etc (whether they are bitter about that or OK with it) tend to not be as vocal on these forums.  Not everyone has a thick skin and can deal with forum/irc banter.

I think that those who like the new system, the players who are good at the mechanics or generally have a bigger 'presence' in EfU:A, are more likely to post about why they think it's great, while those who don't like the new system are more likely to simply vote anonymously, not open themselves up to criticism that can sometimes come across as 'shut up and deal, you big baby', and in some cases fade away from the community.

Again, that last part may be completely off base, but I've talked to a few people and this is what I'm feeling from them.  The yay votes as of this post are not overwhelmingly in the majority, yet most of the people who have posted their reasoning seem to be very much so in the yay camp.

And there are a few players I have spoken to who feel that this may be the thing that pushes them away, for what that's worth.

So much PhDs written here.

I've re-read this thread so many times, hardly any dumb concepts besides mine. I am amazed

Ok, I just found a new gripe about this system, and it only just happened a few minutes ago.

Here's what happened in point order
1. Three of us took on the Trog quest.
2. We killed the Trog King
3. The quest got handed in while all three of us were all still in the cave.
4. No one knows who handed the quest in, and the DM's were unable  to find out.
5. Result, no money or potions for the people that just did the quest due to some random who was probably standing around invisible nearby and who worked the system.
6. DM's did reward us an extra 400xp each for the inconvenience, but lets face it, this situation should never have even occured.

My vote is an astounding "no".

This could of occurred even during the old quest system. Someone logs out when they had the quest, and they log back in. In a perfect world, they wouldn't turn it in without asking or making sure no one is in the QA area at the moment, (This should be an option for ALL quests, even if you already took it.)

Result: Someone turn's in quest, quest resets, new group takes it, you're in the QA still, you're fucken screwed.

Quote from: Archon;141149Ok, I just found a new gripe about this system, and it only just happened a few minutes ago.

Here's what happened in point order
1. Three of us took on the Trog quest.
2. We killed the Trog King
3. The quest got handed in while all three of us were all still in the cave.
4. No one knows who handed the quest in, and the DM's were unable  to find out.
5. Result, no money or potions for the people that just did the quest due to some random who was probably standing around invisible nearby and who worked the system.
6. DM's did reward us an extra 400xp each for the inconvenience, but lets face it, this situation should never have even occured.

My vote is an astounding "no".

So you're voting no because someone cheated? Not to mention that the person who originally took the quest would have seen everyone that was added.

Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;141151This could of occurred even during the old quest system. Someone logs out when they had the quest, and they log back in. In a perfect world, they wouldn't turn it in without asking or making sure no one is in the QA area at the moment, (This should be an option for ALL quests, even if you already took it.)

Result: Someone turn's in quest, quest resets, new group takes it, you're in the QA still, you're fucken screwed.

The fact that it happened directly after they downed the boss seems too convenient for me to believe it was an accident such as this.

I honestly believe someone cheated here. I don't truly understand why the culprit couldn't be found however, since they should have been noted in the quest tool. However, maybe it's too late to check that once the quest is turned in.

Is exploiting enough to vote no? I don't know. It was enough for me, just -seeing- the potential there after it was done. And I wasn't even effected by it.

There is a lot of work to be done on the system before it should be used in game... and honestly I don't feel enough testing was done before hand.

I voted no.

There are a few reasons for this, with one of the big ones being the maps. Quoting Snoteye:

Quote from: "Snoteye"in some cases the map serves as a legitimate extension of senses otherwise penalised by engine limitations (e.g. far-clipping and 90o FoV). It is not purely an OOC convenience tool as it has been made out to be.

The new system makes it extremely frustrating for those of us with very little mechanical game ability to begin with. I'm 34 and I didn't get my first computer until I was 20 and went to college. I only started playing computer games at all a few years ago. I still have to look at the keyboard when I type. Go ahead and laugh if you want but I can't imagine I'm the only computer-challenged person here.

As an example which expounds on the issue with the maps, I look down to type an emote, look up again and my party is gone. I'm pretty sure my character would have watched them walk away. Even WITH the map I have often had a hard time finding my party and catching up again, without the map it is frustrating enough to make me not want to log in at all.

Honestly I have found my desire to play greatly reduced since these changes were made. I play for the stories, not to win at PvP or be the mechanically uberest badass or whathaveyou. I feel like the new changes make what is mechanically an already very difficult game for some into a punishing experience rather than a fun bit of escapism.

All that being said, I can see how the changes could potentially really enhance one's game, such as party tactics. I just don't think the tradeoff is worth it and I also think you're going to lose some players. Which, you know, if you want to run the server for the benefit of one particular group then I guess losing a handful of us unworthy schmucks who can't keep up mechanically is no great loss.

So if I were to sum up the arguments against this in 3 sentences it would be:

The change makes me feel alone when my character is alone.

I hate to seem biased but I hate the idea of change.

I don't like having to keep an eye on the screen to see where my party went.

Public poll imo!

Nagarage!

Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;141160I don't like having to keep an eye on the screen to see where my party went.

It's not about "like". Maybe you didn't read carefully.

But seriously, the number of nays vs yays is tellingly close. What then has to be considered is not only whether the new party-less system is more popular, but whether keeping it will drive some of those "nay" people away from playing on the server.

Do we want to lose players because of this change? Do we adopt a new system that may reduce the player base, or keep the older system which will likely not lose us any players if we stick with it?

Incidentally, I did vote yay. Even so, I am concerned about the number of people that don't like it.

If it ain't broke..

Quote from: TheWastesAreFrozen;141153So you're voting no because someone cheated? Not to mention that the person who originally took the quest would have seen everyone that was added.

Ok, except the person who took the quest had NFI about how this system works and coudn't work out who did this.

Further, if someone does something like this with the old system, at the very least everyone KNOWs who was in the party and had the quest.  So it becomes much easier to track down the cheater/exploiter through a simple method of elimination.

I voted no because the system is open to exploits and as I mentioned in a different thread it adds needless complexity to an already complex server.

Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;141160So if I were to sum up the arguments against this in 3 sentences it would be:

The change makes me feel alone when my character is alone.

I hate to seem biased but I hate the idea of change.

I don't like having to keep an eye on the screen to see where my party went.

Public poll imo!

What a great set of straw men!

I didn't think standing near a quest giver was complex myself, but okay. It sounds like you ran into -one- bug / exploit and it can be fixed.

If people are so fickle as to leave over a change that honestly isn't that different if you step back and look at it then let them go. If you're party is walking off ahead of you too much then say something about it. I know I wouldn't have an issue slowing down a bit for someone struggling to keep up for ooc reasons and I doubt many others would either.

I fail to see how being skilled at this game has anything to do with the changes, nor does your computer hardware. If anything these changes will increase your performance and since the mechanics of combat havn't been changed in any way it really shouldn't matter which system we're in, you'll suck either way?

Then again I don't think making a poll out of something you've never tried and refuse to try is kind of silly. Previous to this invitation for long winded posts about feeling lonely in a video game there were suggestions and bug reports yet very few true issues with the system. This whole situation would have been better left as it was without trying to rally people behind removing something that most (at least those willing to post) think is good.

I also wouldn't put much faith in those numbers if multiple accounts are voting in it.

Quote from: TheWastesAreFrozen;141173I also wouldn't put much faith in those numbers if multiple accounts are voting in it.

We can see all voters. This hasn't happened yet.

I am personally for the no party update and like it very much, but let's not start quarreling here and talk down against those that vote differently than you do and it is certainly a concern if so many voted no, though those who do should speak up more as well and tell us why they are against it.

I believe the few who did elaborate on their reasons for voting nay summed it up quite well enough for the rest of them. I don't see a reason for 30+ people to repeat the same thing over and over, truly.

Simply put; I believe this to be an unnecessary change with too little good come with all the bad. We're already struggling to reach 30 players even in the active timezones, these changes only serve to drive away people who are new to the game or who aren't very good at the game, while the people who are in favour generally are those who've played here for months or years already and most likely wouldn't leave the server no matter which system was in place.

Quote from: Wern8;141178I am personally for the no party update and like it very much, but let's not start quarreling here and talk down against those that vote differently than you do and it is certainly a concern if so many voted no, though those who do should speak up more as well and tell us why they are against it.

Agreed.  People should be able to post their opinions about the new system without being attacked for them, pro or con.  It is disconcerting to see so many people voting against the system, so I think having a discussion on it could potentially be beneficial.

For example, I've spoken to some people on IRC who have said they've voted no, but they also have not really tried the new system.  This goes back to my previous post in the thread.  Most people, I think, had a knee-jerk reaction when the system was first implemented (myself included).  However, after actually testing it out those that I interact with IG seem to have developed a mostly positive attitude toward it.

I'm certain that this is not true for all players; so I think we need to keep in mind that for many the new system most likely boils down to subjective feelings and gut emotions.  It's the difference between, "the change makes the server feel more lonely" compared to "the change sucks because it broke animal empathy."

I am interested in the following:
1.  How many people voted nay, but have not at a minimum taken at least five quests in the new system?

2.  How many people voted nay based upon the perceived feelings of others? (i.e. "I like it, but if it causes people to leave I want it removed.")

3.  How many people voted nay based upon general dislike of the system?  (i.e. "The new system makes the server feel lonely.")

4.  How many people voted nay based upon a handful of tangible reasons?  (i.e.  "I encountered an exploit in the system." / "It broke animal empathy.")

I think most people who voted nay can fit into one of those four categories, and knowing how many people are in each could assist in how we move forward.

If I would have to pick one.. It belive it would be a number 3.

Just going to post a second posting here.  I think this boils down to if the removal of the party system will cause new players to not want to play here, and, if it will cause existing players to lose interest.  There are certainly enough arguments FOR the change that it can be argued to have positives for a number of folks.  

The question for me personally, forgetting for a second that I voted "Nay", is if this will attract new players, or dissuade new players.  As an existing player I for one am not going to stop playing here because of this change (though I don't like it much).  New players are the lifeblood of the server in the long term though so I think it's down to them.

After experienced the new system, I would be very disappointed if ever have to get back to the old meta gaming system. Not that the server would lose me for the changing back, but I would lose some of the interest. It is like getting a raise/promotion in the job, then having to get back to your old position/wage,  same feeling, for me at least.

Quote from: Blake the Boar;141257After experienced the new system, I would be very disappointed if ever have to get back to the old meta gaming system. Not that the server would lose me for the changing back, but I would lose some of the interest. It is like getting a raise/promotion in the job, then having to get back to your old position/wage,  same feeling, for me at least.

Lol, yea i have similar sentiments.

I would also disagree with the notion that this will dissuade players from here. I'm sure alot of folks who haven't tried the new system will enjoy it upon coming here.

I quite like the changes. I am not sure many current players will be driven away, as they know the server and will adapt more than likely.
 
I am however concerned regarding the high number of "No's" and if this is reflected in new players many people may try the Server out, find they don't like it and not come back.
 
We need new players to keep the server as interesting and vibrant as it is. This is such a fundamental change to the gaming experience, we need to consider carefully if its worth it.

What I fail to understand is... If so many people like it because it stops them from metagaming, why can't they just stop themselves in the first place, rather than having a new system do it for them?  If they truly seek immersion in the game world, a few pictures on on side of their screen shouldn't hurt then terribly.
  Some have suggested that the few problems with the new system can be fixed easily, but I have yet to see them suggest how.
  As far as changing back to the old system, I wouldn't refer to it so much as losing your new pay raise as getting a pay cut then later, getting your original pay back, no worse for wear.

80 votes..beginning to think this pole is loosing it's validity.

-Just to add. I have talked to maybe 4 new players, not new handles but folks brand new, and they loved the system, and saw it as a draw.  Sad to say, but simple marketing folks- switch the Server name to Archepeligo:Escape From the Underdark or whatever, but keep the first word A- as stated earlier.  First name on the list, as in google searches, or the most convient store, ala 7-elevn, gets the traffic. No diffrence here, we are competeing for a realitvely static number of folks. Peeps will check out the top 1 or 2, and if they like what they find, thats it.  We should try and make EFUA or..AEFU :) that first or second stop.

We have over 20-something DMs who still pop up from time to time, so DMs could be just one fourth of this poll. I'm not sure what the current numbers are, but there were something like hundreds of unique players who have logged on to EFU/A within a given month.

I mean, you've seen IRC, right? The numbers are down to about 30-40, but I remember when we could have as many as 70 people in #EFU. And not everyone who's active was necessarily on IRC!

Edit: 45 people in IRC right now, not including bots.

The poll's numbers are legit. EFU's got a lot of players.

Throughout this thread there have been recurrent claims about how this system was designed for the 'mechanical elite' and how it disadvantages others who don't fall into that category. Can someone clearly explain the correlation?

Twice I have seen people mention that we should change the name of the server so that it starts with A. This is undesireable for a couple of reasons.

1) Anyone who has been gone since before EFUA began might not find us again, as they'd be looking for EFU not A:EFU.
2) Who honestly looks at that in Alphabetical order? Sort by players is the most common, and that's not anything we can control with a name change.

TL:DR WARNING

I want to quickly state that I didn't say that it was designed for the mechanically elite.

Keep in mind that devices like maps with party locations and the ability to note the health level of your companions and click on their portraits to effect them with beneficial effects can be considered 'crutches' for those who are not as mechanically inclined.  While removing them doesn't directly advantage or disadvantage a particular group, it does effectively remove the handicap (if you will) of some people who just don't have the twitch skills that others might.  This effectively widens the gap between the elitish and the njubish (it's like we're trying to rub out the middle class!).

As you ask for them, I can give a few examples (these are just SOME, I'm sure others can relate more):

Example One:  "I have slow load times"  This is an example of a hardware issue that some people just don't have.  However, it's an issue I (for one) am plagued with.  I also know a few others who have this issue and sometimes we do the e-penis thing in reverse (my comp is crappier than yours).

What happens here is that I head out with a group in a direction.  We transition.  Once I appear, the rest of the group can be as much as half the area ahead of me, though usually it's about a screen away (sometimes I'm with other folks with slow machines and we transition at an equal pace).  Over two or three transitions, I can end up pretty far back, or even losing my group.

For ME, this isn't a huge stumbling block because I generally have a pretty good idea of where my group is going and have a great sense of direction.  I know some people can't make heads or tails of where they are going (for some reason that is beyond me to fathom) and I imagine this can be pretty infuriating for them.

And extension of this is slow framerates.  My particular issue is a weak graphics card and RAM.  So when a lot is going on on the screen, my framerate can be pretty abysmal and it causes lag on my end, which has nothing to do with actual internet latency.  Great example of this fucking with me was when I hit shift and clicked one of my hotkeys with the mouse to lay a magic weapon on Stefan Baden (Winston Martin), but even as I was holding the shift key down, it didn't register properly so I clicked the non-shift hotkey which was dispel magic.  Lulz all around.

Being able to click on portraits, which are large, easy to aim at, and static helps me to not heal enemies or the non-injured guy fighting next to the near death guy, or more realistically, waste precious seconds trying to aim just right so I DON'T make that mistake.

Example Two: "I can't keep up with everyone while contributing to the conversation/emote fest"  Some of us are homekey typers who never have to drop our head down to the keyboard to see what we're typing, but some people, believe it or not, pretty much have to drop their eyes to the keyboard for each and every key stroke.  I've watched people get into typing something, watched their group walk away, then the guy says something and suddenly realizes everyone has gone.  Of my three examples, this probably affects the least amount of people.

Example Three: "When things heat up, I get overwhelmed"  Kind of parallel to example two, there are some who have a real hard time keeping up with things when the pace gets going.  A lot of these are the non-gamers who play NWN.  NWN offers something many other RPGs and computer games don't... an actual IMMERSIVE escape into fantasy RP.  So you end up with people who would never play computer games otherwise playing with us here.

These folks don't have the twitch skills the rest of us do, have a hard time aiming their mouse just so, clicking on hotkeys quickly, remembering keystroke combinations or scads of voicechat commands.  When the fight is happening, they don't have the presence of mind to start hovering their mouse over their comrades to see if someone might be at injured or near death.  They don't notice when their buddy drops to the ground next to them, bleeding.  It may seem quite idiotic to those of us who have been playing computer games since Pong, but it happens.

Just today I was in a Q and the two guys with me, after killing the dudes they were fighting, with characters facing in such a way that I was about a screen away in their forward arc of vision (yes, they were actually facing me), did not notice that I was getting my ass handed to me and was basically downing potions to try to stay ahead of the damage being dealt.  Even though the PCs seemed to be looking RIGHT AT ME, they didn't do anything about it.  I yelled "HELP!" on the talk channel, but apparently they were outside of talk range because they still didn't react.  I had to send a tell to one of them "HELP, DAMMIT!" before they came running over.  These two players were pretty decent, too.

Now, there are answers for these, but I warn you it's easy to flippantly spout out what seems to be simple fixes for those who don't have these issues while having no appreciation for how frustrating it might be for those who do.

Get a better computer, learn to type, be better at the game are pretty unreasonable.  Get folks to pay more attention to what's going on with you so they don't leave you behind or take into account your deficiencies relies on others to adjust to your issues.  Shut up and deal isn't very nice either.

Like I said, I personally like the new system.  I see the potential for great RP instances.  I have crashed a quest (legitimately and in a manner the players involved thought was great) and I can see that forcing people to slow down because they can't rely on the crutch of a mini-map to lead them could lead to better RP.

But the mini-map and party bar are crutches that are meant to compensate for deficiencies in the engine that come from a 90 degree arc of vision at a third person perspective.  It compensates for the fact that even though you may be facing away from someone you still perceive them (perhaps you hear the reassuring clanking of their armor) and the only way the game engine really has to represent perception is by visually representing them on your screen or mini-map

It takes into account that while Joe may have the gaming reflexes of an elephant playing on a lap top, his PC is Willy Badass, seasoned adventure who has a strong awareness of the battlefield around him, from being able to see among his allies who is more effectively cutting down the enemy to noting when his buddy beheads an orc to being able to quickly note which friend is hard pressed and requires succor.

So while repairing the immersion of not knowing the health of your buddy two areas away, it can break down the immersion of being a seasoned adventurer who knows what's going on around him (especially for those who aren't as mechanically inclined).

That this tool can be cheesed and used as a metagaming device is an unfortunate side effect, but I don't think that it's a game breaker.

Removing the tool removes the metagaming aspects, which is especially hot for PvPers who really hate when they gank someone and suddenly, 5 of their pals come running from two areas over to lend aid.  Removing the tool creates additional challenges for those who have near mastered the mechanics of the engine and are looking for ways to play that refresh the experience for them, by finding mechanical challenges whether in the form of making successful gimped builds, optimizing respected builds, and utilizing their knowledge of the server to great effect.

However, removing the tool can provide frustration for people who just want to play a fun game, immerse into another character without stressing about being a super elite champion, and provide a strong backbone of supporting cast for all the hot shot, glamour PCs.

For those who don't experience this frustration, it's REALLY hard to appreciate that others do.

Quote from: Gippy;140929The lack of OOC community is to me one of the systems biggest boons.

This just makes me feel bad. I liked having a community. I liked knowing certain players. If they wanted me to not know, they'd use a secret account. I liked all these things.

Taking the OOC community, or even just decreasing it - I don't know. I don't know. Hard to feel "at home" anymore.

What does Howland think? I want to know what Howland thinks.

QuoteWhat happens here is that I head out with a group in a direction. We transition. Once I appear, the rest of the group can be as much as half the area ahead of me, though usually it's about a screen away (sometimes I'm with other folks with slow machines and we transition at an equal pace). Over two or three transitions, I can end up pretty far back, or even losing my group.

Why don't you run to catch up if they are a screen away? And that's only a problem assuming nobody waits...very few people I have met on the server are that discourteous. IMO, a non-issue with regards to the new party system.

As for people not being good at NWN, why not consider the change as a feature that might help them become good? People do not exist in a state of flux; they learn and adapt. And sometimes the best way to learn is baptism by fire. In order to heal someone people are going to need to be slightly more aware of the situation or slightly more accurate with the mouse. In time, people's NWN skills will improve because of this change. Hardly a reason to take out what IMO is one of the best implementations for the server to date.

And what is this about OOC community? How is that relevant? I do not understand, honestly. Parties had nothing to do with knowing or not knowing someone OOCly, they were merely a feature of the NWN game engine. How does its removal make you feel 'not at home'?

You wouldn't understand.

I've decided to hold off on personally commenting on the system until I can find the time to actually try it, but I want to mention that I'm one of those easily-lost, mechanically-hopeless-after-4-years, gossiping (Team Law!) players. Or was, anyways. And I don't want to be "baptised by fire" in order to play a game.

So far I feel that Jayde is like a young me, and I trust that he's been playing in the new system (unlike me). My memory isn't what it used to be, so if I'm wrong, correct me.

(Obligatory reference: "Yeoung Mi was a hack compared to this guy!")

(I have no idea if I'm older than Jayde, either.)

QuoteAs for people not being good at NWN, why not consider the change as a feature that might help them become good? People do not exist in a state of flux; they learn and adapt. And sometimes the best way to learn is baptism by fire. In order to heal someone people are going to need to be slightly more aware of the situation or slightly more accurate with the mouse. In time, people's NWN skills will improve because of this change.

ie: Well, why don't you just get better at the game, you non good at the game people!  Such an easy fix!  Sounds so simple.

And maybe that's what will happen.  Or maybe it will be a learning curve that pushes people away from the community.  Some of these people don't really have an interest in having to get better.  Having to master twitch skills isn't appealing to everybody.  It's hard to imagine, but there it is!

Theoretically, there are answers and justifications and fixes for all the issues brought up.

And Jasede, I hear you!  It's another aspect of NWN and EfU:A as a social function.

People who are new to this type of server won't even know the difference in the learning curve.

People who are new to nwn will not know the difference between this server and one with parties.

If a player is driven away by something as mundane as not being able to join a party its doubtful they would have been able to cope with the harsh environment regardless.

This should of been a poll in where we cannot see the numbers :(

Why? What's the point of a poll if you can't at least see the number of the vote? I for one find the results interesting, and hope the DM's can make an informed decision based on the feedback and their own observations.

@Caddies: as much as i agree with you because i enjoy the new system, you have the biais of being a very good player, both in RP and engine-wise.

I'm pretty sure a 'standard' player coming along and getting fugued two or three as a 'baptem of fire' because the party mechanics are not what he is used to will simply log off permanently. Remember we are one of the few 'harsh death' server around, so baptisms of fire may put off quite a few visitors.

That being said, i personnaly like the change, but worry about loosing players. Not 'because of it', but because it may the one drop that spills the glass.

Does anyone know any new players here who have actually said they do not like the system? Does anyone know any new players here who have died because of this system and left the server for good? The only new players I have heard of have all said they actually like the change.

I agree with all the players and arguments for this last update.
I disagree with all the players and arguments against this last update.

... for what is worth ...

Sorry guys, this post is just repeating itself over and over again. The change is great, and will likely stick. So, just get over it. Move on ...

The system is really simple, and is in no way a "baptism by fire" like you say Scotty.  You should try it, i'm surprised you and many others haven't.


As for the gamespy server list name change. I think it would be in order. If not to simply put it to the top of the list, to make it more eye-catching, and intrigue RPers who might say, "Wow, It's been the same name for 3 years, I wonder what's going on here..."


Then they may stumble upon what is an excellent system and stay for a while.

Quote from: Blake the Boar;141390Move on ...

Yes, this is what concerns me. So many have. I mean, I have. I miss EfU. It clearly is the best server. But they're making it into something it wasn't, or at least that's how I feel. Can't change it. They'll do what they think is right.

But I still hope that certain players return, new players join, and EfU does not seem so dying anymore, and returns to a state of constancy and growth.

(In before snide reply.)

I really don't get this whole idea of "loneliness" or lack of OOC community.  As far as I can tell, nothing of the sort has happened.  And how could simply altering the party system do that?  I send and receive the same amount of tells I ever did.  I visit IRC as often as I ever did.  While I was never really an IRC chatter of any distinction, I think I've managed to make a mark and know quite a few players and DMs pretty well.

NONE OF THAT HAS CHANGED.  AT ALL.

The new system is fun and different, and has in no way changed my playing style.  I really don't get or agree with the arguments against the change.

As far as being harder, I don't see it.  Not to mention it seems like XP rewards have increased in frequency and amount.  How is that harder?

I don't no about the loneliness factor being a problem so much until there is no one logging in.  Then, there will be no OOC community or IC community.  The more I use the new system, the less I like it, and I have yet to try a challenging quest in the higher level ranges.  Mostly because the times I have logged in, there hasn't been too many to quest with.
  I suppose, with less questing, we will have much more opportunity for Rp'ing our characters.  At this rate, perhaps I will learn to type good enough to keep up with an IG conversation.

  The solo quests seem to work well enough though.

Kill it!