I was speaking to a fellow EFU'er about this and I think it merits a mention. The majority of those that use these feats "appear" to do little else but horde gold and sit about selling all day then when they wish to go do something else, go off questing without putting the aquired gold to some use to better server in some way.
There are some really creative players on the server that can pull these kind of merchants off by getting them involved with groups and putting their hard earned gold to use or. Those that don't do this just seem to.... be there and do little to add to the server, they cant change their prices to a great degree because prices are hardcoded and then ocassions can occur where we have five arcanists/clerics both selling the same potions/wands for the same price.
With the Alchemist/Herbalism systems in place, theres the possibility of these taking the place of the potion/wand monopoly we have and finally give the marketplace some actual flexibility in terms of price change and imaginative roleplay. People could go harvest reagents for the recipes to sell to alchemists, merchants can go hire shady characters to burn their competitors Ivory Moss garden or a band of people could try to form together to create a monopoly on a certain item
As a replacement for potion and wand sellers, NPC merchants should have their prices lowered to be competitive with each other with each having a reason to buy certain potions off them and travelling across the isle for them.
Chuck in any additional ideas you have folks.
I would be against this. Simply because no one would be a brewer or crafter anymore, the plants would just shrivel up and die.
And the incentive to play a cleric or a mage also goes way down.
This would be intresting, to have you actually go out and find the recipies for pots and such... though Wands should stay somewhat the same, mayhaps use a reagent as a focus depending on the spell school, but otherwise remains the same.
However... one problem would be those who already do potion/wands as is, particularly successful ones.
Perhaps the spell should be a 'rough' version of it, granting as is currently, but a serious brewer can make more via actually brewing (as in get reagents, start brewin' in the cauldron, mayhaps a skill roll for how well) and get stronger grades of it, thus being able to sell for more.
If everything is the same regardless of being a 'natural brewer' or a 'on-the-side' brewer, then it won't do much, but a 'serious brewer' and a side brewer having major differences would make a lot of sense, as well as the fact that quality > quantity (usually)
Sometimes my cleric wants wands for their use. Sometimes my mage brews potions so I don't have to use the same spells for my group, I can give it to them. I would rather not see the feats taken out at all.
My suggestion for this would be to implement a lowered cost of base materials for banners that complete tasks to support the suppliers in some way. Whether it's through scripted quests, DM quests or excellent roleplay, this system would create a competitive nature in the crafting business and allow prices to drop lower (or create more profit for the crafter if their competition can't sell these items as cheap)
I'd much rather have NPCs offer a wide array of potions and wands, than allow PC's to simply harvest gold for doing little more than existing.
As Daz said. Some mages can seriously pull this off and make it an involving process that brings in much fun and activity and RP to the server.
Other merchants simply log off, switch characters, and pop on with a Merchant that does these sorts of things when every someone makes a sending for it.
RwG votes No on Craftable potions and Wands in the hands of everyone. Yes to if a Wizard or Cleric proves themselves, to be able to turn it into an RP cultivating tool, instead of a simple easy moneymaker.
And the notion that "the desire to play a mage or cleric goes down" made me laugh. Hard. Appreciate it.
Simply remove the brewing potion cauldrons.
Perhaps making the cauldren a placeable and a requirement to use the feat, then only certain factions that have earned it can make them?
Bad suggestion. Leave as is.
While there may certainly be people that only sit around and brew potions/quest, there are certainly others that utilize it. If a mage wants to harness their magic to sell, so be it. If a cleric wishes to show the might of his god and possibly gain more prayers by offering these portable blessings, so be it.
Don't remove. Add.
Keep the sistem as it is, allowing any player with the feats to craft with the already given costs. But allow herbalism, but mostly alchemy to enchance this wands and potions in various ways such as:
Crafting through herbalism a magical potion bottle that:
1) Could only be cast a specifical spell on it, so it could only make certian potion, but incresed the caster level.
2) Would reduce slightly the cost of the brew, or with better formulas reduce it even further.
3) Would allow certian non-brewable spells to be brewn, at a high cost (shielding, 4rth level spells) This kinda recipies should be hard to find though.
Or crafting a special wand that, when cast a spell on it:
1) Would only accept certian offensive, single target spells, but would reduce the cost dramatically (things such as magic missile, or negative energy ray comes to mind, you know, so wizards could use such spells in battle regulary)
2) Would increse the number of charges of a newly created wand, but accepts only certian spells. For example, making 50 charge cantrip wands.
3) Incresed caster levels, just like potions above.
4) Decresed cost, just like potions above.
etc..
The reason, this would allow the prices to vary much more, mages with acces to the reagents and formulas that allow decresed costs could offer their wands/potions cheaper, so in a way there would be a way of making competicion on other mechants by price. Other merchants would have higher quality potions/wands that would be worth more, and could be given more expensively or even at the same price to compete with other merchants. And there would also be certian wands/potions what only certian merchant would offer, and that would be nice to see.
Secondly, through this i hope wizards/sorcerers to have easier acces to cheap magic supplies to quest with, so that, as i had suggested before they would use magic rather than a crossbow when questing.
Anyway, if you want to ignore yet another attempt to make mages look like i think they should, dismiss the second part, but don't ignore the first one because of that.
Would be nice. Doubt it will happen though! (Referring to the OP)
I know how you feel about it Daz. I once did it on a character of mine.
You know, everything can be cheesed. Removing it isn't necessarily the answer.
I think that you should jack up the price of brewing a large amount to discourage clerics made purely for farming gold, with the ability to find out about and use different regents to lower the cost back to normal or near normal.
e.g. Cure Serious costs 50 gold to brew normally or 30 with *herb X*
The Same could go for wands as well, but I find that the wand crafting group is small enough that it isn't that exploited, in my exp. wand crafters usually have some role play base going for them.
Quote from: TheMacPanther;138242I think that you should jack up the price of brewing a large amount to discourage clerics made purely for farming gold, with the ability to find out about and use different regents to lower the cost back to normal or near normal.
e.g. Cure Serious costs 50 gold to brew normally or 30 with *herb X*
The Same could go for wands as well, but I find that the wand crafting group is small enough that it isn't that exploited, in my exp. wand crafters usually have some role play base going for them.
Most likely due to the strict restrictions on wands.
But, I agree with the idea of having cheaper Wands/Potions for people who take a little risk to gather a reagent or two. Perhaps even paying small amounts for others to gather them.
Increasing the price to brew with the right reagents lowering the brewing cost is a nice idea, indeed.
I think it'd be nice to make the cost of making these go down with a higher crafting skill.
That'd make things more flexible and interesting.
Secondly, if for some reason I -wanted- to play a merchant, I wouldn't want to apply to use the feats anyway.
I think it'll be fine the way it is. These merchants cannot make anything truly good without leveling up, which can only happen through Good RP or Questing. Questing would require them to hire bodyguards, since any respectable group of adventurers probably would be smart enough not to bring a fat merchant along with them on their ventures. Hiring bodyguards is a good way to start PC interaction, as normally this would lead to creating a merchant guild, which leads to the guild being able to fund different organizations, shady and lawful alike..
I dislike the idea.
Mostly that of people having to 'prove' themselves before they can craft potions and wands, not everyone can muster the sort of attention other players can, and would simply be ignored despite how hard they work their arses off to try and make it all engaging and an RP fiasco. Players have limits, and shouldn't be punished for not being able to overstep them.
Leave as is, its not flawless, but I can't see any way of having it improved all round.
Boom King has it. I've been playing Ahmed, a successful brewer, for months, and the XP drain is noticeable. If you're playing a crafter PC, you'll likely cut off the business for a few days whenever you're close to a level so you don't constantly sit under the theshold for it due to orders. Unlike a goods merchant, you need to quest or rock out for DM XP, as both spellslots availabe and the capacity of a cauldron are limited by PC level.
Furthermore, crafting is an excellent way to influence things, as precisely *because* of the crappy prices on NPC brewers, PCs have a hold on the market. All my crafter PCs have offered discounts or even at-cost potions to PCs and factions they've wanted to (overtly or covertly) support.
Druidic/ranger brewers can really be a boon to people who maintain a good relationship with wilds factions, as they're the only real way to get One With The Land and Hide Potions. This is good.
As for making the cauldron a placeable, having a brewer in the faction is a great advantage from the word go, both in gold made, and in cheap potions for members. You'd never be able to supply low-cost heals to members to help them get going if you couldn't brew multiple potions.
Ahmed's whole sales business originally started by him renting out a Kingsman room JUST to have somewhere to store his annoyingly heavy cauldron. I then started sticking heavy and valuable stuff in the chest and it ballooned. The cauldrons are fine, they're sufficient hindrance, especially for a mage.
If someone is just logging a PC to sell potions, that's no different from a goods merchant only logging to buy and sell. And when you have a player attracting a good number of people to one place at one time for business, you tend to get RP going along with that between customers.
As TNVW says, requiring reagents would lead to the plants being wiped out in a matter of days. I remember when the herb system update went in, and half the bonga ferns, pine trees etc vanished in a puff of "oooh new recipes". Since you'd make a huge market for the plant parts, and they plants don't grow nearly quick enough to fill the usual potion demand (I should know, I went through a stage of getting a druid to fetch me reagents for bottles). However, with that aforementioned bottle recipe, there already exists a way for knowledgeable PCs to knock 5 gold off their costs.
I'd say to most of these people, try a crafter PC. It can be a bit of a double-edged sword though when you want to go quest and suddenly get an order. However, you can use it lots of ways, for example Egon used to knock up Cure wands mid quest if supplies got low (yay for sorcerous casting on bards).
I would say though, that for when there aren't sufficient crafter PCs about, we could use NPCs with overpriced but affordable potions. Say, 2nd level spells at 100, 3rd at 220, 1st at 45. Like the healer and Hagatha sell, but a wider range to include blur and others. Then PC crafters are the venue of choice, but a lack of them doesn't lock off supplies.
I'd be for a tweek in the potion department, but I think the wand-use restrictions are sufficient as is.
I don't have an opinion on wand crafting, but in regards to potions:
[hide="Complicated, interesting, but lots-of-work idea"]I like the idea of increasing the default prices, but making certain reagents available that can reduce either the gold cost or the XP cost (but not both). Perhaps difficult-to-harvest reagents (only grow in areas occupied by dangerous monsters) can have 100% XP cost reduction.
If there's a way to differentiate between hostile spells and friendly spells then perhaps Craft Weapon and Craft Armor could be put to use; each rank (unmodified by INT) could knock off a percentage of the XP cost for crafting of an offensive spell (Craft Weapon) or defensive spell (Craft Armor). This shouldn't stack with reagents, and the larger discount should be applied. A gold discount shouldn't be able to be applied alongside an XP discount.[/hide]
However, those would be some pretty heavy changes to a system that's been in place essentially since The Beginning - and a lot of work. Edit: And in the course of writing what's in the sblock I forgot that I don't like complex subsystems or crafting...
An easier adjustment might be for cauldrons to become more expensive luxury items, and maybe an increase in the price of potion bottles (which would make finding an empty potion bottle actually valuable loot).
Increasing the cost of a potion bottle only hurts the people that need them, not the people that supply them.
Quote from: TheWastesAreFrozen;138475Increasing the cost of a potion bottle only hurts the people that need them, not the people that supply them.
Yes. But there really is no way to "hurt the people who supply them" without just removing the system entirely!
I sort of like hunting down wand/potion merchants to get supplies. It is a skill of inventory and consumable management that I am fairly good at!
I personally tire of seeing potion/wand merchants being hounded after
As well as clerics who do more wand or potion making then actual preaching. I think making potions and wands scarce would be uber.
-DRD
QuoteIf there's a way to differentiate between hostile spells and friendly spells then perhaps Craft Weapon and Craft Armor could be put to use; each rank (unmodified by INT) could knock off a percentage of the XP cost for crafting of an offensive spell (Craft Weapon) or defensive spell (Craft Armor). This shouldn't stack with reagents, and the larger discount should be applied. A gold discount shouldn't be able to be applied alongside an XP discount.
It's right in the spells.2da, easy as pie to differentiate :)
Personally, I think both sides make good points. But I think that an alternate system should be explored. I think that either spell components or something else cose to it should be required for anything but the most basic spells, or most spells should be able to be made into potions through herbalism and alchemy. What these potion PCs need is competition, something to give them a reason to RP their skills rather than just *poof* "Here you go sirrah".
I am liking the idea of using the craft armor/weapon skills as skills for potions/wands , and the PC should have the choice to make a permanent one time choice if they want their skills to reduce a percentage of gold or XP cost. I think also taking it one step fruther would be a good idea as well. These skills should have -requirements- before a potion of a certain level could be brewed. 5 points for cantrips, 15 for first level 25 for second and 35 for third. (Maybe spell focus in any school will reduce requirements of that school?)
This way not every PC and their dog can be an instantly successful potion/wand merchant, and the DMs could even throw the ability to craft potions of even higher spell levels to really dedicated crafters.