Hey there. Is it acceptable for a Paladin to not use his /c detect evil ability, if simply for the fact that it takes away from alot of interactions with evil pc's who might go through an effort to portray themselves as good, or at least not evil?
I like to use the command as a general vibe i get from a person, sensing their aura, but not a completely infallable tool in which i can determine that somebody is evil.
As a paladin's oath forbids them from aiding evil doers, i wonder if this mentality is OOC'ly acceptable, to use detect evil as a clue or warning signal, but not an end all be all decision of who i should or shouldn't be associating with.
Perhaps also it would be in-character for my character to be unsure of his senses, second guess himself, etc, as a person would in real life.
Thanks :)
I think it's quite nice that you don't simply go around spamming the ability.
Homever, after saying that, there are ways to protect yourself from it if you are an evil person. If you interact with them, you could quite well already feel or see inside their "souls" or what ever you goody paladins wanna call it.
After all, in the end, I think paladins are punished by their faith if they meddle with evil doers, even if they think it's a noble act to "aid" them when they feel or seem nice.
A common mistake most people make when playing paladins is that detected evil means you can't interact with them at all.
An evil person can easily block it, but being detected as an evil person by a paladin is just that.
It tells a paladin that they cannot aid this person, and must be wary of them. It varies from PC to PC, and Deity to Deity, but some paladins will and should try to inspire the evil PC to do good and change their ways, and some paladins will simply give a strict warning that failure to change their ways will result in severe consequences if caught commiting foul deeds. Mind you the actual conversion and redemption is usually more along the lines of a clerical duty, and a paladin is more of an enforcer than a redeemer. But that isn't to say some paladins will not try to guide a trouble soul back to the path of righteousness. The paladin simply cannot hold the evil doer's hand all the way without risking a violation of his oath.
If You don't use Detect evil at all, You'll be hit with chaos points and risk falling as a paladin, should you happen to aid an evil PC who has not taken steps to block the detection either way. I wouldn't worry on a whole about it limiting interactions, it's really up to you as a player how you will deal with an evil PC. Nothing anywhere says you need to shun them, and simply watch for a chance to smite them. Several of my evil PCs have had long standing, almost friendships with paladins even though I never blocked detect evil. They never aided my PC with anything he asked of them, but they were always there to talk and try to offer moral guidance, which led to some pretty amazing encounters (I almost made a couple of them fall, too!)
Some people see detect evil as a fun killer. I see it as a fun maker. It's all up to the players, really. While I don't really play paladins, I have familiarized myself greatly with the conditions which break their oaths or could make them fall, to further my goal of one day making a paladin fall. If in doubt, feel free to send me a PM here on the forums or on IRC. I use the nick \RagingGoblin most of the time. Or you could ask Wern8, our resident expert on righteousness. Or one of those pesky DMs. There are lots of people you could talk to that would be happy to throw info at you!
First of all. Dont listen to Cruzel -- There is some very good paladin info on the website on what is expected of them.
Second, to answer your question, no. Paladin -need- to use Detect Evil. But it doesn't end there. You dont have to confront everyone who shows up as evil right away. You dont have to expose them either unless there are like chatting away with a friend of yours and you are doing it to protect said friend.
A Paladin who goes around insulting/bragging about people who shows up on his detect evil is not really acting in a chivalrous way.
I had assumed he had already read all of
[hide=the paladin info]Paladins Paladins are possibly the most demanding class. They not only have to answer to their deity's dogmatic needs, but also uphold their oaths of paladin conduct.
Fealty
Paladins must uphold the teachings of their deity. This does not mean street preaching, but they must live their lives and exhibit themselves in their deities image. They must obey the tenets of their god. They must strive to act in a manner that is in the interest of their god.
For example, a paladin of Lathander who is miserable and hopeless will no longer be a paladin of Lathander. A paladin of Torm who is reluctant to combat evil will no longer be a paladin of Torm, etc.
Courtesy
A paladin must conduct themselves with a modicum of proper behavior. They are expected to be respectful of others. A paladin who routinely spreads slander and speaks ill of others behind their backs could lose powers. A paladin who engages in street brawls could lose their powers.
This does not mean a paladin has to be a nicey nicey patsy, they just must behave with a semblance of dignity. They are the 'elite' representatives of their faith and are expected to act as such.
For example, a paladin of Torm who spreads words around town about how much he hates a local Banite, and spreads tales about his ill behavior without proof, could lose powers.
On the other hand, if the same paladin openly speaks plainly of foul deeds comitted by the Banite, and urges others to be cautious against, or take actions against, the Banite, is fine.
Basically, confrontation is ok, but shit-talking is not. Likewise, a paladin who gets in arguments and fisticuffs with local thugs could lose power, but one who engages in honorable duals or fights to defend themselves is fine.
Honesty
A paladin is expected to be honest in words and deeds. Paladins can not lie under any circumstances. They may choose to not speak at all, as opposed to lying. They also can not practice deceit. Disguising themselves in order to sow discontent among their rivals is dishonest.
A paladin may 'disguise' themselves so as not to be seen immediately for who they are, but they may not use this to their advantage, by pretending to be someone else when confronted, or to perform actions in the guise of another, or an unknown.
For example, a paladin, if captured, and asked by the enemy where to find the undefended leader of the paladin's group, can not lie, but may refuse to answer.
A paladin may wear a large cloak over his head to pass through an unfriendly town unmolested, but they may not wear the cloak in order to hand out notices signed by a false name, or to spread word about their rivals crimes while pretending to be a local thug.
Valor
A paladin is expected to be courageous, both in battle and out. While retreat is, at times, the only sensible option, if a paladin routinely flees prematurely, or flees in a manner that endangers his companions, he could lose his paladinhood. Likewise, a paladin is expected to be brave in representing his faith, and standing up against his enemies out of battle as well.
For example, a paladin who flees a powerful orc once he takes a solid blow, and thus allows the orc to slay his companions, could lose powers. If a paladin finds himself surrounded by powerful orcs, with no hope for victory, he may retreat honorably, but still must take care to see that his retreat does not cause loss of innocent lives.
Likewise, a paladin who becomes meek and timid when confronted by representatives of rival faiths, could lose powers.
Honor
Honor is everyting to a paladin, at times almost to a fault. He is expected to be respectful to all, even his enemies. No pissing on their corpses for the paladin. He is also expected to be willing to go all the way to see that his honor is maintained. He will always keep his word once given, or die trying.
For example, if an enemy he has defeated behaved courageously in his own way, a paladin might even adhere to his dying wish, or see a proper burial performed. A paladin will never desecrate the dead.
If a paladin is challenged to a duel by someone of similar ability, he must accept. If, say, a drunken commoner well beneath him challenges him, he may turn away, as this shows greater honor than beating the man.
Some more specific examples things a paladin will and will not do...
- Will not work alongside evil people, in any way. A paladin may meet with them, or have conversations, but nothing that remotely benefits the evil one is allowed, including plotting, questing, giving them gold, etc.
- Will not break his word without giving full effort to uphold it.
- Will not lie or deceive.
- Will not attack, or harm in any way, an innocent.
- Will not torture in any way, for any reason.
- Will not break the law, unless the law is unjust or in conflict with their deity's dogma. Even then, they will strive to see it overturned without breaking it.
- Will never betray a friend, ever.
- Will never take dirty money or items, or otherwise enrich themselves off the misdeeds of others.
- Will not desecrate the dead in any manner.
- Will not attack or kill an unarmed, and/or unaware foe.
- Will not use poisons to defeat an enemy.
- Will obviously not steal, murder, etc.[/hide]
I was just clearing something up, Mort. Lots of people who play paladins absolutely refuse to interact with a PC that have pinged as evil, short of PVP. Most often, some just politely withdraw from a conversation as soon as an evil fellow joins in.
This isn't something that as a paladin they need to do, but it kind of makes me sad to see people watch prominent paladins do it, then follow that example when they make a paladin of their own.
Interacting with evil people is absolutely fine, you can have conversations daily if you want. (Provided you are not telling the evil people information that could help them, A paladin should obviously use discretion when having such conversations!) Questing with evil people is absolutely against the paladin code though.
Hmph...
It's just odd, especially for some folks who seem like my good friends, and are generally looking out for me and others, to tell them, "I sense your dark intentions, i fear we cannot travel anymore," even though the characters actions would have totally lead me to believe that they were in fact good, or at least nuetral.
I know paladins are supposed to have an acute and developed sense for this, but it just seems a bit unfair in a multiplayer persistant world.
Thanks for the replies :)
If players aren't playing their alignments, then they're cheating, and it's their problem, not yours. :)
Two more comments/questions.
What about travelling with someone, for example on a noble mission, under the pretense to guide them and perhaps bring them back into the Light. For example someone that acts relatively normal by societies standards and might even be agreeable to be around, but is evil, and thus emits the tainted aura.
Would it be okay to travel with them, having in mind you are going to try your best to show them the benefits and powers of good and guide them to a proper path, with teachings and example.
I elaborate on this specifically because of the large amount of evil pc's (many of whom are very interesting and fun to be around) on this server, and the fact that at times, it could be very difficult to recruit or join a party not containing evil pc's.
I really enjoy the adventure aspect of the game, and playing a devoted holy warrior, but i forsee that not being able to work with or travel with people, solely based on a detect evil, would make that a bit difficult.
It is really tough to give a definitive yes or no answer to that. If we say yes, then people will interpret that as a free ticket to group and quest with evildoers, so long as one of their priorities is to, "one day eventually try converting them." If we say no, then we get people complaining that we've stripped them of all opportunity to play their character and interact with others.
Accepting a party invitation from an evildoer isn't going to get you chaos/evil shifts. Nor is walking on the same side of the sidewalk. However, a key question you have to continually be asking yourself is, "Am I helping this evil guy?" If you're questing, and you're handing over gold to him, and you're making sure he stays supplied, then "yes," you're helping evil, and that's bad. Sometimes you have to turn people away. Sometimes you don't give the character gold (even if you think the player deserves it). Sometime you are the one that has to turn away. And heck, sometimes you are the one that has to refuse gold from the evildoer. You have to make a lot of difficult decisions which might not truly be the best "mechanical" choice for your character, but is instead the best in-character choice that makes the most sense for your paladin. And when you do this well (especially the sacrifices you make), you can be sure we notice it.
There are plenty of other dimensions to this I couldn't hope to possibly map out. I think wholistically, it's what separates the good players and good paladins from the bad players and bad paladins. Playing a good paladin almost always definitely means "stirring shit up." If you're just sitting on the side, not sparking conflicts, or just "watching it all happen," then chances are you're not playing a good paladin. And playing a good paladin is hard...probably the hardest thing you can actually do here, especially when evil is in the lead, so to speak. But that said, it's also a first-class ticket to a treasure of rich opportunity, so you get what you play for.
Hah, that's a great post.
I'll keep it in mind.
Take care.
At the risk of being verbally reprimanded, why not just remove detect evil so paladins can discover who is evil and who isn't the good old fashioned way that's more enjoyable for everyone involved?
That would be horrible. The entire point of a paladin is being gifted with divine senses attuned to divining Evil (a tangible force in the FR universe, unlike IRL) and ensuring it doesn't prosper.
As it is, every PC is a miraculously good liar when needed irregardless of Bluff score. If detect evil was taken out you'd have paladins questing with everyone from the evil spectrum who wasn't a monster or otherwise overtly evil.
I've never played a paladin before, but why not make detect evil a roll that has a chance of failing? It's an unfair advantage if someone rolls up a cleric of cyric who's actually trying to -decieve- rather than mass murder everyone.
Spell casters already have a means of concealing their alignment, and really special deceivers who can't cast can ask for DM assistance.
It takes a lot of work to be a "villain with good publicity" and rightly so, but it's not like paladins can just start a witch hunt. It takes effort from both sides to build credibility and gather supporters.
Some people are really good at deceiving paladins using the system we have in place. It's not that hard if they rely only on detect evil. There are both items and spells to shield you.
have you thought about sobe perhaps one of your good friends that may seem evil on DE but are acting good, might be changing their ways? perhaps you should ask a bit IC you might be suprised with what some come up with
I don't think so. If a person is doing good things, his/her alignemt should be good or at least neutral, not evil. if it is evil, becoming goodthen the alignment should be slowly shifting. If it is not, it means it is just waiting for the chance to kill the man, get his gold, steal the maiden, and get away with it.
Since i don't think you can see the exact alignment points with detect evil (have never used it) I'd say, it is acceptable to help an evil character to become good, but if it shows no progress soon enough then act as a judge.
FYI, this gets locked the moment it turns into an alignment discussion.
After playing around with how a Paladin should respond to Detect Evil on the EfU setting, all I can say is, its not easy.
There are quite a few characters in alignment who detect as evil but otherwise don't act like that. However, just as many are in fact, deceitful, and are using deception to win others over. Confronting these characters will almost always backfire on the Paladin unless you have actual proof of wrong-doing.
How do you react?
There's no easy answer, and it varies by the character. I've found the best policy is to give some polite and vague, but not deceitful excuse to why you cannot be around them. Unless you have any evidence of wrong-doing, at the very least by the standards of your religion, if not within terms of the actual law. I don't see many Paladins as being able to make a credible confrontation in public. Offer to speak with them in private perhaps, and give a slightly more in depth explanation.
Courtesy is a big part of a Paladin's life, and remaining polite even to those who are obviously evil, but have done no visible wrong and broken no laws, will go a long way. However, not all Paladin concepts will be able to remain polite in the face of certain people. If you have to be rude on occasion to get your point across, then by all means!
However, should a Paladin trust that anyone is truly making an effort for change and redemption until their Detect stops giving the impression of evil? Not a chance. Detect Evil is a big flashing insight from your deity that aiding, or associating with these people beyond conversation can possibly break your code.
Even when they stop detecting as evil, most Paladins would likely still be suspicious, without definitive proof, that the person may be blocking their divine insight.
DesertDancing and Drakil :
I was thinking of similar things and this was a reason i posted this. The thing is, unfortunately, we don't have a DM to watch over us consistently like in a traditional campaign, so alot of their good deeds, and thus a shift in alignment, could be going under the radar. I'd suggest for anyone that is really wanting to find redemption and turn good to maybe have a chat with a DM about it, i'm sure they could help out.
I played a character who "redeemed" himself. Mostly I didn't feel like pursuing his evil agenda anymore. After months of acting consciously not-evil, he died for what he thought was the liberation of the House of Light. A DM asked me why an evil wizard would do something like that, and it turned out that the DMs thought I was just deceiving the paladins all this time. Upon raise he was LN. ;)
So people seeking alignment changes have to indicate to DMs that this is their goal. There are two private forums that players can use to inform the DM team of this. It won't always be easy, but it can happen.
As for paladins, they were suspicious that for a while I was the only one who survived that night (others resurfaced eventually). Did he sacrifice them all for an Alignment Concealer!? is what must have been going through their minds.
All of it was fun RP.
Well... if my good character began doing evil things, i think it would be just as easy to ask a DM to shift the alignment whenever you think you shouldn't be good anymore.
I do not believe that Paladins should be polite to their enemies at all, especially those who are of the evil alignment, you can of course play one that way though. They should and must however refrain from insulting them, spreading false rumors about them and so on.
think of it like american presidents. they must always maintain their code of honesty or politeness as given by their oath, or become a fallen paladin (impeached) and someone else will take office (like abraham lincoln or john f kenedy
I played a Paladin who was well aware of alignment concealment potential, and knew such. For example, Dr. D once tried to worm his way onto a DM quest for New Dunwarren way back when, and his char (after my Pally had seen him and DE'd him merely moments before) said she had "redeemed" herself, my Pally knew that while his (consideribly) weaker DE might be fooled by Alignment Concealment, the wards of New Dunwarren wouldn't be, thus took her their, maintaining courtesy of course, then, when the wards dispelled the Doc's anti-DE, my Pally gave him a scathing look and told her to stop playing around with alignment concealment, as well as get the heck out.
So if you suspect *X* used as an alignment concealer, find a way to inconspicously get rid of it. The New Dunwarren wards did that fine, though I suspect that the Doctor beleived *X* would make him immune to the wards. . .
So yeah, DE can be beat, but a clever Paladin can find those hiding behind *X*. All it takes is paying attention, or, more likely, having a dispelled situation.
just eat their heads or some shit holy shit paladins are powerful
yEs!
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