Quote from: Cruzel;131866A true, scripted stealthmode. One that allows sneaks to focus 100% on their stealth.
NWN stealthmode is a joke which even to bioware's admission, has some sketchy and possibly flawed aspects of it's check system. It even gives bonuses when used in combat. However what about the times when fighting is the least of a sneak's concerns?
It's possible to script a toggled mode that will allow the sneak to gain a significant boost to stealth at the exspense of combat ability, and further movement speed decrease than normal stealthmode. (Permanent AC/AB loss while toggled on, not possible to dispel or lost via rest)
Right now sneaking in many, many areas of the ziggurat is totally unviable due to stuff like light modifiers, even allowing pcs with -no detection skills- to detect even the most min-maxed stealthers. (40+ stealth scores). A mode that only operates in these areas specificly or indoors to counteract this would be greaaat.
Based on Cruzels post here, is this possible and wanted enough to implement? Due to some hidden modifiers and light sources it's nearly impossible to hide or sneak past anyone without insane ability scores in these areas.
While there should obviously be a counter, it seems far too easy to detect stealthy people at a distance. The person trying to be stealthy currently has to focus -heavily- on those skills, even using up three feats to get decent scores while the person detecting them can cross class one of two skills and often have enough spot / listen to detect them, let alone if it's a class skill making it even easier.
Outside of Cruzel's suggestion I would add in some other options.
- Gear with much more hide / move silently on it. Perhaps the most simple of ways to balance out the system.
- Allow your bluff score to be added in to your stealth ability, as if they could 'blend in' with crowds or act in a manner more fitting of the environment they're in. Body language is a large part of telling lies, so the training to act the part could viably help in remaining unnoticed.
- Greatly decrease the listen modifier in most areas outside of the more quiet ones such as lairs or tunnels. All sorts of things would easily conceal someone's footsteps, things such as rain, wind, people talking, a magical sending in your head, the water crashing on the shores, and more!
I honestly think stealth is fine the way it is. If players can become virtually invisible with applied effort and never be able to be detected by anything, it is something overpowered.
The main problem I see with stealth on EFU, is that if you want to truly be any good at it, you really should just be a ranger.
I don't think it should be that one sided, monks and rogues should be able to stealth.
But I happen to agree....it seems very hard to track down enough stealth loot to make it effective on the server. Unless you are a ranger anyway, then your class ability+camo/one with the land more than make up for it.
Quote from: Relinquish;132350I honestly think stealth is fine the way it is. If players can become virtually invisible with applied effort and never be able to be detected by anything, it is something overpowered.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;132348While there should obviously be a counter, it seems far too easy to detect stealthy people at a distance. The person trying to be stealthy currently has to focus -heavily- on those skills, even using up three feats to get decent scores while the person detecting them can cross class one of two skills and often have enough spot / listen to detect them, let alone if it's a class skill making it even easier.
Stealth works fine as it is IMO.
- Yes, you have to invest feats and amass stealth gear if you want to be undetectable-- this makes sense, though.
- Adding Bluff score to stealth modifiers is sort of overpowered.
- Those hidden modifiers can be used to your advantage to GAIN stealth increases.
- There have been plenty of non-ranger stealth master PCs.
- There is plenty of stealth gear about.
- Use potions.
I do like the suggestion about lowering Listen modifiers in certain busy/noisy areas though.
Stealth is used as HIPS by too many people already. No need to make it better.
Most creatures don't detect a fair stealther, and if they do, it SHOULD happen sometimes. Bear in mind that some pcs put skills points to counter stealthers, so maybe you hand around those.
Stealth is just that: not invisibility+anti-noise magic. Maybe increase the bonuses in darkness/noisy places, but if so decrease them in broad daylight.
On a side not: one reason people keep stealthing around is that you can't just bash someone sneaking by your precious belongings when no DM is present. Guards should react to sneaking people OnSpot, IMO, even if just to say: "what's that suspicious attitude"?
Lowering the listen modifiers in certain areas is an excellent idea. At the moment, it is not the most difficult thing to hear someone, and it is not very different from spotting someone due to the character still appearing.
QuoteStealth is used as HIPS by too many people already. No need to make it better.
What? Just what? If you are referring to corner sneaking, that is an exploit, and it is not like HIPS at all anyways.
I've played stealthers and I have played against stealthers.
My biggest issue is that it cuts out RP.
I've seen entire quests were people stay in stealth. I've seen entire exploration parties of people wandering around in stealth and talking in tells to each other or to me (Back when I played one).
People don't emote it. People don't RP it.
Its just kind of like "OH HEY I CLICK A BUTTON". Its an engine limitation and one that I severely dislike.
Nature of the beast though.
I am 100% against anything to make stealth stronger.
Having played with a stealth character on EFUA, I feel that stealth is good where it is now. At about 20/20 I found my character to be impossible to spot by most.
i think stealth has a pretty plainly laid out hard counter in the form of spot/listen, it just seems rare anyone ever invests in it as much as people do into hide/move silently
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;132403People don't emote it. People don't RP it.
Its just kind of like "OH HEY I CLICK A BUTTON". Its an engine limitation and one that I severely dislike.
How do you mean? My stealthers occasionally emote [moves with a light step and disappears" etc, but it's not something I spam.
Stealth mode is an unlimited time duration free way of hiding that lets you go about unseen by most of the server NPCs or PCs. Yes, detect skills detect it, but that's what they are *for*. Otherwise stealth is just free super-invis. Especially as stealth countering buffs last such a short time.
Maybe you can't hide at high noon on top of the ziggurat, but how are you supposed to be invisible in plain sight? (I think this is what was meant by HIPS) Stick to using it where it makes sense to be sneaky, like the wilds and dark back-alleys and you're fine. A case in point was my detect-heavy Rogue, Bishop spotting LiS's sneak rogue stealthing *in a chair at the Kingsman* and just emoting glaring at the spot every so often :D.
I would be in favour of possibly more Spot bonuses in some open areas. It's far from easy to hide in the middle of an open courtyard. Also for a sticky on how stealth works with the hidden modifiers, so people can understand where it will be good and where it will suck. I love playing sneak PCs, but I can't quite see how I can hide in front of someone's face in an open square with nothing else in sight XD.
@Afromullet:
Hearing only just reveals you as a translucent figure, you are only known to be there,not identified.
I think its fine, myself. I can rarely hear characters stealthing with a character with maxed out hearing, since hearing gear is almost impossible to come by (In my rather limited experience) while stealth loot is a dime in a dozen. (Never actually understood that expression, but whatever.)
It's not a "dime in a dozen", it's a "dime a dozen", meaning that you can get 12 for ten cents, meaning it's worth less than a penny for one, meaning it's cheap cheap cheap.[/offtopic]
I used to think stealth was fine, when I thought it was stealth + mods + 1d20 vs detect + mods + 1d20. Now that I've learned that it's detect + mods + 1d20 vs stealth + mods and no additional + 1d20, I'm uncertain if that's the case. It definitely makes the net worth of detect skills greater than the net worth of stealth skills.
It also removes the ability to be a 'casual stealther'. You either need to superinflate your stealth skills or you're wasting points. Meanwhile, putting a modest amount of points in detect skills, even 5 points, hyperincreases your chances of detecting someone, since the roll is made very often.
Don't know what it means for balance :shrug: but it seems a little off when taken that way.
Well, when I played a stealth char, I emoted "Fades into the shadows", to represent him stealthing. Yes, I did do it at the click of a button sometimes, but usually it was because I either, A: Don't have time to emote, or B: They know because I've been with them so long that it'd be tedious to emote it. It was hardly HIPS though, as he always did it in wild areas or where there was something to hide in (IE, ruins, trees, the shite-smelling bush, etc)
Stealth is fine.
Lots of areas have different modifiers in addition to the default ones - it is easier to hide in certain areas, more difficult in others. This is by design. It is hard to spy in certain well lit taverns.
With modest investment in stealth you will do very well against monsters.
Well moderate to intensive investment in stealth you will do well against PCs who don't invest in spot/listen.
Only the very best stealthers will do very well against PCs that invest in detection abilities.
The balance is good.
Quote from: Howland;132454Stealth is fine.
....
Well moderate to intensive investment in stealth you will do well against PCs who don't invest in spot/listen.
....
The balance is good.
Tbh, I disagree. Even walking around the ziggurat at times with around 45/40 stealth (Fully buffed with stealth wands and DM loot to boot) I found that some pcs with little to no detection skills would hear or even SPOT me. I know all about the light/movement modifiers and I play my sneaks accordingly so as not to get hit by the penalties whenever possible because a good sneak should know how to not get caught.
The only answer I can surmise from this, is the area modifiers are a little too high.
My suggestion is somewhat of a 'focused stealth mode' where a pc sacrifices most of their combat ability both offensively and defensively (-10 to ab and -5 AC), and some of their movement speed. The PC will focus entirely on not being detected, which a delay between deactivation and penalty removal (to prevent exploit in use of stealthganks) This mode could work in several ways, though IMO It should have a feat requirement of the "Stealthy" feat.;
1) Only indoors, giving a +5 or +10 bonus to stealth
2) Anywhere, only +5 though. Maybe only usable a few times per day (Tiptoeing around is bad for your toes, you know. Gotta give them a break)
HOWEVER, since I am suggesting boosting stealth for those who focus on it, it seems only fair to boost detection skills in a similar way. Have the detecting PC drop their defences and offense in order to give a small bonus as well. Like the focused stealth, this advanced detection should only be available to people who invest in a feat for it (Alertness maybe).
Or the area modifiers could be lowered. My way seems more fun though :/
Also, I've played quite a few stealth PCs. While it is true there are quite a few quests that drop stealth loot, the fact is that even fully outfitted with all the stealth gear available from common quests, a non minmaxed stealther is looking at around 21/24 at around level 6 before feats. That may sound high, but when you factor in moving in any way gives you a -5 ms penalty, walking around near bright lights or in the daylight gives you penalties to hide, so in actuality unless you're in some dank dark musty cave you're really cruising around with about 15/16.
Did I mention that if they are standing still they are treated as if they are in detect mode regardless, making checks every two seconds with +5 to their listen modifier, +5 to spot if they have a bright lightsource or ultravision on, on TOP of area modifiers? So even a person with 0 spot and 0 listen can be sitting there with a minimum of 5/5 at pretty much any time. What does that mean for the stealther? All their loot and feats and skill investment, and this random pc only needs to roll a 10 to see them under common circumstances. Now most stealthers will have at least one of the feats, or maybe all three. This means that at around level 6 with no DM loot and all three feats, the average PC without detection skills/loot will need to roll about a 15 spot or listen to detect our stealther.
2 checks every 2 seconds, The odds aren't really that great that the stealther will remain hidden for long. This is without even considering a PC who actually has invested in detection skills.
I hope this paints a better picture of why stealth as it is, is indeed
not balanced, and it is far, far too easy to spot or hear someone as it is.
I find it absurd that anyone can get 50 skill ranks in hide, or any other skill, this the stealth of an epic level character well beyond the server range.
If people can get this, stealth certainly needs no help.
Quote from: Nihm;132480I find it absurd that anyone can get 50 skill ranks in hide, or any other skill, this the stealth of an epic level character well beyond the server range.
If people can get this, stealth certainly needs no help.
Except the character sheet is a lie.
Even at 45/40 you can still be spotted by most PCs who have about 15/10 respectively. Which with loot and investment, is not overly hard to do, When you consider the information in my previous post. Whereas getting 45/40+ in stealth actually is not so easy..
Amazingly, I agree with Cruzel.
QuoteTbh, I disagree. Even walking around the ziggurat at times with around 45/40 stealth (Fully buffed with stealth wands and DM loot to boot) I found that some pcs with little to no detection skills would hear or even SPOT me. I know all about the light/movement modifiers and I play my sneaks accordingly so as not to get hit by the penalties whenever possible because a good sneak should know how to not get caught.
You do not seem to understand that NWN's stealth system is a fixed thing.
If you had 45 Hide and 40 Move Silently when you were detected while negating any hidden bonuses PCs might get with you mad skills (as you inferred) then...
Those PCs who spotted you at least 25 Spot and at least 20 Listen, not "Little to no detection skills"While it is possible that whoever heard you had such crazy Spot/Listen, Cruzel, it is much more likely that you aren't as skillful as you think you are and that those PCs did receive bonuses to their detection on account of the hidden stealth modifiers.
I'm talking about PCs i know for certain had no detect skills. Harold Blake (with a almighty spot/listen of 2, as gwydion has told me if I remember right) managed to not hear, but see my fully buffed rogue while I was hiding. With modifiers though, that +2 becomes an easy +5 from his light/standing still, and an additional -10 for the hide check because I was in the center of the radius of the bright light, -5 to ms because of movement, etc. And then there are area modifiers to consider, jacking his spot/listen up even more, which presents us with relatively small gap where the skills would appear to be massively different.
Other PCs I'm confident had little to no detection skills have also heard me, even when I was just casually strolling at least 15m away. I'm confident absolutely none of them had 20+ detect skills, caddies.
At least not before modifiers. After all modifiers are considered, these pcs with 'little to no detections skills' are easily cruising around the 15-20+ area in most cases, from my observations.
The point I am trying to make, is players who do not invest in detection skills/feats at all, should not be able to detect stealthers (In any circumstance) as laughably easy as they can now.
So...he saw you while you ignored pretty much every situational modifier there is to stealth, that seems balanced to me. You shouldn't need keen senses to see someone standing in bright light, in front of you, at day, while moving, and while they aren't moving.
My only gripe is that non-ranger/druids feel a little weak in the stealth department, but I may be alone in that feeling.
Bards and Rogues can get pretty decent stealth.