I'm wondering if there's any interest in a command to grant a damage bonus to characters attacking with nothing but a one-handed weapon, by using two hands to make an attack.
In PnP, when a character does this (//%22http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#wieldingaWeaponTwoHanded%22), they get 1.5 times their STR bonus (instead of 1 times their STR bonus). This makes wielding nothing but a longsword or a bastard sword (without a shield or off-hand weapon) a viable choice for combat. I'm not suggesting this because it's a PnP rule, but because it's a low-impact rule that I like and allows more build options to become competent questers.
Some things:
- For management purposes, this would be activated, not toggled.
- Any form of weapon/shield swapping will cancel the bonus.
- Negative STR does not get multiplied (thus, useless).
- The bonus damage would always be rounded down.
- This would not apply to weapons that are always wielded with two-hands, as they already get a 1.5xSTR bonus...
- nor to weapons that can be finessed.
- This would not stack with whetstones or similar items that add physical damage bonuses to weapons.
- A two-round (or longer) cooldown can be added, if desired. Otherwise, I'd just do a one-round cooldown. See the notes for the spoiler block on an alternate suggestion.
- Prerequisite feats could be required to activate this command, such as Power Attack or Two-weapon Fighting, or both, if such a restriction would be desired.
Comparisons of damage output when used by a 14 STR character:
[INDENT]Longsword
[INDENT]Normal: 1d8 + 2 =
3 to 10 damage
Two-handed: 1d8 + 2 + 1 =
4 to 11 damage[/INDENT]
Bastard Sword
[INDENT]Normal: 1d10 + 2 =
3 to 12 damage
Two-handed: 1d10 + 2 + 1 =
4 to 13 damage[/INDENT]
Greatsword
[INDENT]2d6 + 3 =
5 to 15 damage[/INDENT][/INDENT]
Note: the +1 comes from 2 * 1.5 = 3 and 3 - 2 = 1.
A greatsword will still be the best, but the average damage of the one-handed weapons improves. And in case anyone's curious...
[hide="Comparisons with a 20 STR character"]
[INDENT]Longsword
[INDENT]Normal: 1d8 + 5 =
6 to 13 damage
Two-handed: 1d8 + 5 + 2 =
8 to 15 damage[/INDENT]
Bastard Sword
[INDENT]Normal: 1d10 + 5 =
6 to 15 damage
Two-handed: 1d10 + 5 + 2 =
8 to 17 damage[/INDENT]
Greatsword
[INDENT]2d6 + 7 =
9 to 19 damage[/INDENT][/INDENT]
Note: the +2 comes from 5 * 1.5 = 7.5 and 7 - 5 = 2.
In this case, a 20 STR character can wield a bastard sword with the same maximum damage as a greatsword, and with better average damage. This may be a reason to go with a two-round cooldown, or perhaps a cool-down of rounds equal to your STR bonus (or STR bonus x 1.5), as well as prerequisite feats.I just discovered that two-handed weapons always get a 1.5 x STR bonus from the engine. Weaker weapons will never be able to "catch up."[/hide]
This is mechanically similar to a number of other ideas I've had floating around that I've scripted for personal use in my private development modules, so it's feasible. Now I just need to know if there'd be anyone who wants to use this, and if there's any reason this would be a Bad Idea.
I am all for this.
I am against this on the reason it is awesome, and therefore immoral to the standard's set by all standard's of EFU:A
This is an awesome idea, I say.
In your comparison of the bastard sword vs the great sword vs the longsword with 20 str, shouldn't it actually be:
Great Sword: 9-19 (2d6+(5*1.5))
Still making the greatsword superior in damage for two handed purposes (even if only by a little).
I support this idea though. It gives the bastard sword back that feeling it had in PnP as the "hand and a half" weapon.
*WISHES NwN HAD WEAPON ANIMATIONS FOR WIELDING ONE Longswords with two hands.*
Quote from: Vlaid;128856In your comparison of the bastard sword vs the great sword vs the longsword with 20 str, shouldn't it actually be:
Great Sword: 9-19 (2d6+(5*1.5))
Two-handed weapons do not get a two-handed weapon bonus (x1.5) in vanilla 3rd Edition that NWN in based on. NWN2 applies this bonus because it's based on 3.5E (and had the luxury of being developed after the rules for D&D were printed.)
And before anyone suggests enabling this for two-handed weapons so that they "get" their "deserved" bonus, I'm not looking to raise the damage output server-wide, just provide an option for people to sacrifice off-hand use for making a cooler (but smaller) weapon than the greatsword do competitive damage.
Addendum: People should choose the greatsword because it's the weapon they want to wield, not because it's the weapon that does the best damage; while it still will do the best damage (at least, without having to activate anything) it will not be so much better as to overshadow other weapons.
Wierd, I always thought you did get the Str *1.5 damage bonus on two handed weapons in NWN. That is odd! Learn something new all the time.
I guess I would have another question then (in light of your clarification on how two handed strength damage bonus's work in NWN).
When small races wield a one handed weapon two handed, do they currently get str*1.5 damge bonus?
And if they don't, would they get it with this change?
Currently, no, they don't.
I hadn't thought about small races. Technically, the way I was going to script this would have allowed them to make two-handed attacks, since I'd have to specifically be checking if their race would already be wielding the weapon two-handed or not.
A better question is, should they get it? Technically, they're supposed to have trouble wielding medium-sized weapons. Also, being biased against halflings and gnomes, I don't know if I should be the one answering this. Without a directive from another DM, I would probably exclude those small races from being able to use two-handed attacks with their already-two-handed weapon.
I thought small races have no more trouble wielding medium sized weapons two-handed as medium sized races wield large weapons two handed?
I suppose if it's not mechanically desirable to give medium size races the str*1.5 damage bonus to Large two handed weapons, it wouldn't really be fair to give small races the same str*1.5 to medium sized weapons.
Vlaid is correct. Two-handed weapons get 1.5X Str bonus. One-handed gets 1X Str bonus. Off-hand gets .5X Str bonus.
Technical stuff aside, I like the idea.
Definitely 100% for this.
Quote from: Pup;128869Vlaid is correct. Two-handed weapons get 1.5X Str bonus. One-handed gets 1X Str bonus. Off-hand gets .5X Str bonus.
Technical stuff aside, I like the idea.
Well, shit. I'd heard that NWN1 didn't do this, and the NWN Wiki folks had no idea, but it does, at least for medium-sized creatures. I didn't test with a halfling, though, but now I would assume it's the same.
A STR-based cooldown seems a bit harsh, now, actually.
A Halfling with a rapier with swing it as a two hander already, so leaving them out of the scripts would not change anything for them.
Heh.
I had a feeling I was right, but I wasn't at a computer I could test it from so I wasn't going to say for sure until I could test it!
cool stuff
I'd be against this simply because it negates the only bonus smaller races had. Can you imagine a 20 str wood elf two handing a rapier?
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;128888I'd be against this simply because it negates the only bonus smaller races had. Can you imagine a 20 str wood elf two handing a rapier?
Nope. Rapiers can be finesse'd, ergo, are ineligible.
Quote from: lovethesuit;128890Nope. Rapiers can be finesse'd, ergo, are ineligible.
Replace rapier with scimitar then, which cannot be finessed.
The damage would still be less than a greatsword, but they would crit more often. Overall the damage / round or whatnot would still favor the greatsword.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;128895The damage would still be less than a greatsword, but they would crit more often. Overall the damage / round or whatnot would still favor the greatsword.
I think you're underestimating just how much the crit range will make a difference though!
It is neat for smaller races, but with this, bigger races will not only get the same advantage with higher possible str, thus higher damage bonus, which is important for thise low damage high crit weapons, but also they'll be able to swap in a shield when things get tough.
How's that much different from having a greatsword in one quickslot, and a bastard sword+tower shield in another quickslot? Even I know to carry extra weapons when I quest.
Does anyone know if the damage bonus from a whetstone is multiplied during a crit, by the way?
Its great idea, but im for only real 1,5 hand weapons - bastard sword and katana.
Quote from: ScottyB;128902How's that much different from having a greatsword in one quickslot, and a bastard sword+tower shield in another quickslot? Even I know to carry extra weapons when I quest.
Does anyone know if the damage bonus from a whetstone is multiplied during a crit, by the way?
Yes the damage does multiply on crit and the difference scotty is that you can have weapon specialization/focus in that one weapon and get both benefits. So you get +2 damage +1 ab while using it two hand and +2 damage +1 ab while using it one hand.
I just don't see why you want to make the already more mechanically powerful races more powerful!
I was for this when I thought for a second that two handed weapons didn't get str*1.5
In light of that they already do get that, I don't think this is a desirable change. At MOST, I think it should be restricted to katanna/Bastard sword, as they seem to be the only weapons I could really see two handing as a medium race.
Yeah, The ImpossibleDream has it.
Locking finesseable weapons out means that no one handed weapons for Small races are useable with this, anything useable one handed by a Gnome or Halfling is also finesseable.
It should definitely not be restricted to katanas/bastardswords/waraxes if implemented. They are already powerful weapons and renowned powerbuild weapons, and getting both +2 dmg compared to other one handers and the unique ability to effectively have focused in a 1d10 2-handed wep too would be ridiculous.
I would actually suggest that Exotic one handers be left out of it specifically for balance reasons, and finesseable weapons allowed. That might actually make Exotic,weapons more exotic (yes you get +2 dmg but no you can't use them two handed) and promote pure melee rogues using their weapons in a two handed assault, rather than taking Martial wep for greatswords. SInce if you're finessing you have lowish STR anyway, it's not going to unbalance things.
War hammers too!
I chuckle at Scotty not knowing the 1.5x modifier for two-handers. :)
That aside, I don't like this necessarily all that much, because while there are some people that might be "cool" about it, there are going to be a bunch more that just throw their shield away and switch it on after their friend locks monsters into combat with IE, getting an essentially free 1.5x damage modifier. Bad apples man.
Fine, I won't do this due to the need to balance this server again.
I'm all for it! Bastard Swords, after all, are -meant- to be used 2 handed or with a shield, depending on the battle conditions.
Now, of course in NwN we don't have to worry about shattering shileds durring battle, but in RL, yeah, they did, so that's why they made Bastard Swords, so they can be used 2 handed if needed.
Quote from: ExileStrife;128929That aside, I don't like this necessarily all that much, because while there are some people that might be "cool" about it, there are going to be a bunch more that just throw their shield away and switch it on after their friend locks monsters into combat with IE, getting an essentially free 1.5x damage modifier. Bad apples man.
These, I think, would be the same people who switch between longsword and shield and then to greatsword whenever there isn't anyone targeting them.
This would be really sweet to implement, though. Maybe there's some way to script it so that you can't switch weapons while in combat (with the option to use your 1h with 2 hands) unless you're disarmed? Would be a reasonable tradeoff.
Not meaning to derail, but I absolutely see nothing wrong with switching from a 2-Handed weapon to 1-Handed Weapon + Shield, as the engine allows. It's certainly no exploit. I am sure battle-hardened Fighters know when to pull out the greatsword, and when to discard it to bring up their shield and mace instead.
I, by the way, am all for this idea, though I can see the balance concerns.
How about instead giving people who use a 1-handed weapon and no shield a +1 AC at level 4, +1 to hit at level 6 and +1 to damage at level 8 instead, to make 1-handed weapons more attractive?
I know that in AD&D 2.0, a Fighter could put points into 1-handed weapon fighting style, and it would increase his AC and his, I think, critical hit range. I really liked this idea because Fighters could choose to specialize in 2-handed weapons, dual-wielding or 1-handed weapons or 1-handed weapon + shield combat styles, and even though 1-handed weapons were slightly worse than the other three options, they were way more viable than they are in the NWN engine.
I don't think its that much of a balance concern, in NWN2 it automatically gives you the +1.5 when using a medium 1 hander and no shield and it really wont affect combat that much. What I am against is using a small weapon like a dagger two handed and gaining the str bonus, it would have to have a cut off on size. And plus in 3rd E. D&D it fully allows you to switch from 1 to two hands to gain the str bonus to dmg. Actually it suggests the switch for bastard swords and katanas.
I really don't agree that there's major balance concerns here. I think it's worth doing if Scotty wants to, if only so Tiny the Tigereye Merc can finally get his 1.5 STR bonus for wielding his WARHAMMER without some damn sissy shield.
Quote from: Howland;129073I really don't agree that there's major balance concerns here. I think it's worth doing if Scotty wants to, if only so Tiny the Tigereye Merc can finally get his 1.5 STR bonus for wielding his WARHAMMER without some damn sissy shield.
but...but...*Cries* Tiny...is dead...*Sob*
Shows what you know.
Yesss.
I should see if I can get the AI to make use of this, too...
Poeple who use one handed weapons can get and use deflect arrows. This on itself should make it atleast slightly attractive especially for dexterity builds.
Stop trying to crush my dreams! :mad:
anyone wearing a shield gets "Deflect Arrows" too. Might as well get the +3 AC as well. Two hand wielding FTW. I want to see a half orc two handing a dagger!
Meow-mix!
All for this. Have wanted this for ages and never thought it possible
Tiny is part of the elite club of NPCs (along with Baron von Matterheim, Chuckling Bill, and a few select others) who will never die.
As we speak the Baron is planning to retake Sanctuary. Keep your eyes peeled.
I kid of course, he and his women did their time. Now its time to celebrate in paradise.