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On Roleplaying Slaves

*Warning, rather long post here*

The Escape from the Underdark setting assumes that most characters escaped from slavery, but of course not all since some are lost adventurers who were never slaves or are the children/grand-children of escaped slaves who were born free in Sanctuary, which adds a new dimension to role-playing a character. Some players will want to take time to consider how slavery affected their character, and what impact the experience left upon them. None of this is "canon" or even technically in line with what the DMs may have in mind for how some of the slave keeping races treat people, but I thought starting a dialogue will be helpful at least--and many of the ideas are just my best interpretation of how things would work. Some of the information on slavery is drawn from real world sources, especially the book Debating Slavery by Mark M. Smith, and I'd also recommend Dan Brown's Slavery in the Ancient World.

Kinds of Slavery

Chattel Slavery (Drow, Goblinoids, Stone Giants, Aboleth, Yuan-ti, Lizardfolk)

There is more than one kind of slavery, most people are familiar with the chattel slavery depicted in the American South-I won't go deeply into a debate about whether it was what most people are familiar with or not, but suffice to say the "image" most people think about with poor living conditions, humans treated far worse than any animal, frequent whippings, poor nutrition is what "chattel slavery" looks like in a typical fantasy setting. Lizardfolk in Slaal'teesh make engage in Chattel slavery, but for them the slaves are not kept as much for 'tasks' as to perform medical expiraments upon. Chattel slave work is often done by "chain gangs".

Patron Slavery (Duergar, Fire Giants, Kuo-toa, Dragons, Necromancers/Undead {rarely keep any living slaves, relying on undead minions, but occasionally one gets whimsical ideas})

A second form of slavery is what most people tend to think about when they think of slavery in ancient Rome or Greece. A lack of any basic freedom, but slaves are generally treated like favored servants in the households--perhaps treated like good work animals or favored pets depending on whether they're in the home or out in the fields/mines. Slaves are still punished, but the masters typically do try to treat their property well and ensure the slaves are healthy and strong not necessarily because the master cares about the slaves. Slaves in some patron systems may eventually even be freed. Patron slave work is often done on a "task system", with certain jobs assigned to individual slaves. Occasionally, drow will employ the Patron system for household slaves or even an attractive "pet" they keep for ascetic reasons.

Mental Slavery (Beholders, Illithid, Aboleth, Ancient Dragons)

A form of slavery that only exists in fantasy settings, mental slavery takes the form of slaves compelled into bondage by entirely magical means. They have no free will, they're not treated as "less than animals" as in the Chattel system but are considered nothing more than tools. As tools, they're well cared for, used for specific and specialized tasks (because after all you can hammer with a hammer, but a hammer isn't smart enough to drill a hole i.e. you can charm a slave to mine, but if you want the slave to guard a gate that takes a reapplication of the charm/dominate process and isn't likely worth the effort).

Kinds of Masters

Beings keep slaves for a number of reasons, but the most common reasons are related to either economics (the drive for more money/power/slaves or social with slaves viewed as 'savages needing civilization' generally meaning slaves aren't from the dominant culture and aren't considered capable of belonging to it.) When slaves are kept for economic reasons, slave conditions tend to be better often more "Patron" like, while slaves kept for "social" reasons may find their treatment for "Chattel" like although a strong exception here is when the master culture thinks the slave can ultimately learn and join the culture of the master--in which case the slavery takes on the "Patron" connotations. Illithids occasionally keep slaves around for bizarre "organic art" constructs. Slaal'teesh's lizardfolk keep them purely for medical expiraments.

Illithids and Beholders tend to follow Mental Slavery patterns.

Goblinoids and Drow typically keep Chattel Slaves.

Duergar may vacillate between Chattel and Patronage systems, depending on their needs. They don't care much about slaves as living beings but some fall into the Patron system because they feel treating their slaves better will yield them larger profits, others use the Chattel system hoping that working slaves to exhaustion will yield larger profits--at the core here the availability of getting new slaves often drives conditions.

Slave Life

Slave reality has a great impact on slave culture. Slaves are typically forbidden to read, reading allows slave's access to education and knowledge which can cause them to become disruptive. Even slaves that can read are not likely to teach others in a Mental or Chattel system; those that try in the Chattel system are likely killed. Slaves kept in a Patron system may be allowed to read; or even obtain some education to make them either more valuable as slaves (slave tutors for example) or in the hopes the slave can learn to better mimic the master's society.

Religion is generally forbidden by all masters. Religion gives slaves hope, a feeling of security and opportunity, and the sense a larger power "cares" about them or will grant them blessings i.e. tools to escape bondage. In chattel systems, the religious are generally killed. In Mental systems, the religious typically brainwashed to forget their beliefs. The exception is the Patron system, which may encourage slaves to adopt the religion of the master society, although some masters may believe slaves aren't "fit" for worshipping or approaching the divine.

Language is a valuable tool that allows slaves to communicate. Often slaves will speak languages that the masters do not know, and can use this to plan rebellions, resistance, and more. As a rule of thumb, all masters forbid speaking languages other than those they regularly use themselves and severely punish slaves who resist in this matter.

Magic is important in fantasy settings. However, spell casters make poor slaves. If they are divine spell casters, they bring all the danger of religion and regular wizards. Arcane casters are an incredible danger, it is impossible for a master to know the true strength of an arcane caster, and most are too physically weak to be useful slaves. Wizards and sorcerers may be kept on as scribes, retained for their scholarly knowledge. If they are kept, any threat they can be is neutralized: they may be blinded so they can't see to target spells, crippled to prevent them from making the necessary gestures to cast, or their tongues cut out. If the slave is too valuable to maim in this manner, the master either is too strongly attached to them: or they are kept separated from other slaves often locked away somewhere that their owners have easy access to them from their libraries or laboratories. Almost any wise master kills a divine spell casting slave before they can incite resistance or rebellion, even in the Patron system it's just too dangerous for the slaves to think any power greater than their master may be capable of affecting their lives.

Daily Life for chattel slaves generally involves hard labor all day, generally with one meal early in the morning and a smaller one late in the evenings, nutrition is based most often on the ease with which replacement slaves can be procured. There is little to no free time, slaves generally associate only when working in chain labor with distracted or bored supervisors. In Patron systems, slaves tend to eat meals after the master has his meal and often will eat whatever scraps or left-overs remain, duergar prefer to feed their strongest animals first so males often eat before females. Free time is often higher due to task-systems, in which a slave is given a certain task or tasks to perform in a day, once those tasks are done they often may spend the remainder of their time doing their own business; generally this involves growing a little food, or using scraps of cloth to make clothing, bedding. In Mental systems, daily life simply does not exist although slaves kept far enough from the master, out of sight can often mean out of mind--and the master may forget to renew the domination of the slave; frequently this is the only way slaves get a chance to escape from such bondage.

Slave life can often change during warfare. Slaves are rarely used in warfare since there is a danger in arming large numbers of slaves, who may join your enemies. Occasionally though, a master grows desperate or wishes a distraction, or even promises freedom to slaves who fight for them--this is mostly only possible in Patron systems. In Mental systems, slaves are often forced into battle, proving an exception to the rule. In Chattel systems, there is occasionally the use of slaves as spell fodder, large numbers sent unarmed or poorly equipped toward enemy positions to draw off fireballs and similarly destructive war spells away from the main forces.

Being crippled as a slave isn't necessarily the end of bondage even in the chattel system. Indeed, some slaves are crippled purposefully by their masters. Skilled artisans may have legs crippled to prevent them from running away, drow occasionally cripple females who try to commit suicide or murder their own children rather than allow them to be born into bondage, miners may have legs removed to prevent them fleeing into mine shafts.

Slaves that do manage to form society learn quickly to keep it hidden. Gang labor frequently develops with a clear leader who makes immediate decisions but allows the group to share with the process, this prevents strong leadership and encourages a more democratic outlook not necessarily by desire but frequently by necessity as in chattel systems strong leaders are singled out and often killed. In Patron systems, leaders are often favored slaves.

Slaves often do tell many stories, especially they're fond of stories about escaped slaves-but of course master's punish those who tell these stories harshly, so the slaves often learn to disguise the stories using jargon and metaphors to carry their messages i.e. in drow slave societies many stories about Jack Spider, a wily arachnid that frequently played tricks and pranks on foolish monsters in the Underdark are common--the drow priestesses often looked with patronizing amusement on these stories, frequently ignoring their underlying theme when viewed by slave races of a weak insect outsmarting the strong and powerful.

Resistance is common in the Chattel and Patron systems both. Workers will often work as slowly as possibly, fulfilling quotas required and no more, many slaves are punished for sabotaging equipment although they always claim it "broke" on its own, other slaves feign stupidity and claim to not understand how to perform tasks; even after days of doing it although this behavior is often harshly punished.

Family life is generally impossible in the Chattel system. Women and men are exposed to one another to breed only, and then the pregnant female is often removed immediately from the male to prevent any bonds from forming between them, the child when it is born is treated similarly and often given to a wet nurse. Slaves with families tend to be more resistant to their situation, so Chattel slavery does all it can to prevent family from developing. In Patron systems, a master may actually encourage a family to develop believing it will help civilize the 'savages' and the master quickly learns it's easier to punish the slave's family for transgressions than the slave.

Effects of Slavery

The effects of slavery on the victim are great and long lasting. All slavery tends to dehumanize the victim, in Chattel systems the victim is treated like an animal and may very well become more feral; use to only the barest necessities being met. The Patron system is more sinister in some ways; the victim may be treated with more dignity than in a Chattel system, but quickly develops a sense of less worth than the master and members of the ruling class. This breeds an innate child-like subordination (often this childlike state is encouraged by the master's themselves who treat slaves as either stupid, or merely wayward children who can't possibly operate at the same level as their 'adult' masters), this is coupled with an inability to make strong eye contact and hunched body language, and there is an encouragement of weak will in slaves in all systems, those with stronger wills are frequently the most severely punished. In Mental systems the victim is often stripped entirely of personality, if escape happens the victim may not even remember what their original life was like, or even who they were. The first memory of many slaves who escape the illithid are of suddenly being somewhere unfamiliar, further away from their masters than they've ever gone before, somewhere frightening and where they're left feeling alone and confused.

Life expectency varies but in Chattel systems life expectancy of 17% the normal is common with few living past their prime as an old slave is generally not as worthwhile. Patron systems tend to be less unforgiving but an expectancy of 25% the norm is still the average although slaves may live longer if they are favored. In Mental systems, slaves are generally kept alive into their prime, 50% max life expectancy before being disposed of--illithids generally devour their slave's minds and feed the remaining husk to the other slaves, while beholders enjoy killing their slaves in entertaining and unique manners.

Punishment frequently leaves more than just scars from lashings, slaves may have body hair plucked out by drow who find it disgusting, duergar prefer to brand their slaves on the back or chest, and illithids enjoy experimenting with bodies, frequently implanting strange organs or skin grafts which they come to view as 'art'. Slaves may have limbs removed if they are not necessary to a job and encourage the slave not to flee, many slaves have tongues removed. Drow females frequently castrate male slaves for amusement.

Rewards for Slave exist in all systems except of course Mental. Rewards often take one of four forms, mobility which is essentially a transfer from harsher more degrading work to easier (in context) obligations, better shelter, the right to breed, or better food. Occasionally in the Patron system, slaves are even allowed to make their own crafts and possessions with left over material when their tasks for the day are done; nothing too good or the master will simply claim it for himself.

Escape*more planned for here*

Escaping is a defining moment for any slave. Regaining freedom is frightening for many slaves, unuse to making choices, dehumanized by their living conditions, degraded and taught to rely on strong masters for food, shelter, and alone in a hostile and unfamiliar setting such as the Underdark. Freedom may even bring about depression and total alienation, some slaves may seek to end their own lives, or even attempt to return to bondage overwhelmed at the options freedom brings. Frequently, slaves are leaving behind something--in the Chattel systems children who were taken from them upon birth or conception even, lovers they gained as rewards from masters, in Patron systems they may even be leaving the 'comfort' the master provided, a family they were allowed to have, or possessions they were allowed to accrue. Escapes from Mental systems are absolutely bewildered by their sudden free will, and nihilistic self destructive tendencies tend to be greater with these freedmen.

*pfft* Oh yeah?

Real reply: Great job! This should be stickied for everybody new and veteran to enjoy. I wonder about what you said regarding Mental Slavery only existing in fantasy, though. Something can be said for things like chemical dependancy and brainwashing as a Real Life analog to that.

lovethesuit *pfft* Oh yeah?

Real reply: Great job! This should be stickied for everybody new and veteran to enjoy. I wonder about what you said regarding Mental Slavery only existing in fantasy, though. Something can be said for things like chemical dependancy and brainwashing as a Real Life analog to that.

Maybe, but I've yet to read any scholarly studies on it and doubt I ever will.

Well, it is possible for a slave to LIKE there masters, i play a elf who's master was a half drow and lets just say they were... involved

Harlstar Well, it is possible for a slave to LIKE there masters, i play a elf who's master was a half drow and lets just say they were... involved

Yes, especially because of the "child like" bond or in this case a really "adult" bond.

If you're interested, the situation may even play out as Stockholm Syndrome, which is more common obviously in hostages but I think the same "feel" and "pschology" applies if only in a 'pop' understanding.

actualy, she wasnt a hostage, she was a general slave that had the luck of her master falling in love with her :wink:

as said again stockholm syndrome. and besides drow will treat half drow as no more than slaves so that seems really really weird that she would be a slave to a half drow

im not gunna post her whole BIO here cos its 8 pages long, so get to know her IG or the mystery will elude you forever.

and its not stockholm syndrome, and whos to say the half drow was domesticated, tons of possibilitys.

Following this post in mind, how would people see the slaveries practiced by each race? Obviously, Illithid slavery will likely be ill-remembered and worrying for the most part (how much does one remember after mental domination, anyway?) and Beholder slavery - well, Illithids control their thralls, and the Beholders charm theirs, so there's a very different take on the two forms of mental slavery.

The main societies which citizens could have escaped from are the Drow, the Duerger, the Orogs, the Lizardfolk, the Illithid and the Beholders. How are each of these societies likely to have imposed slavery, and what sort of conditions are we talking about for each?

This was fantastic.

Really sort of helps recapture the dark feeling Sanctuary should have. I don't see enough depressed and angry people anymore, except in... Lower, I guess. And they all end up being evil.

I hope more people take this information to heart when they create their characters, because I'd like to see a lot more of people who are affected by their past slavery, instead of just subsisters, who seem to easily overcome the horrors of the past several years of their lives and deliver pies for people.

Another point which has come up; what are the 'traditional' uses for various races as slaves? That is going to affect them as well - an elf escaped from Traensyr is going to have had a very different experience to a dwarf, or if they'd come from the Lizardman medical experiments. What types of special fates (and accomponying psychoses) would be reasonably common?

Oroborous forgot the most important and widely used slave.

The sexual slave.

I'm pretty sure that one would come somewhere under patronage - possibly chattel, depending on race. The drow might have one or two about in each household, while the Orogs likely have a large halfbreed population - using slaves as and when (or, even more disturbingly, on an organised basis to ensure a good proportion of halfbreeds as more worthy slaves).

... I really meant to moreso corrupt the conversation with my own perverted antics... but you sort of justified it all with a correct answer. :(

yeah very very true for all parts.

there should be more charactors that are messed up in ways from their past.

Elytherin Dragonius there should be more charactors that are messed up in ways from their past.

Tarnis is way ahead of them in the regard. >.>

I second that if we could have this post as a sticky it may help people come up with rather critical portions of a core character history. The more characters that have this "feel" to them, which should be a majority in a town of ex-slaves, the more I think it will promote a good survivalistic and harsh feel to the server that many people have discussed in the past about getting back.

Ewww, this thread is all sticky.

Just a thought on kinds of slavery - my char was kept for fighting. Pit fights/gladiator type thing. Fairly well cared for because she was one of the best and they fight better if they've been fed (though not too much - just to keep the edge).

The other thing is - if you were a duergar slave, consider just how you feel about Grunstubble and Fort Mur...

42! 42 fight good! Then get pie!

FOIG

Inquisitor Oroborous forgot the most important and widely used slave.

The sexual slave.

If slave and master belong to some race.

Don't some races view other races as animals? We can safely assume that Lizardfolk, Beholders, Illithids and humanoids aren't even sex-compatible.

Helge If slave and master belong to some race.

Don't some races view other races as animals?

Maybe the master has a kinky taste? Some people actually have sex with real animals (which is cruel to the animal btw) so maybe sex with slaves isn't so strange. Also, I hear that rape is more about being dominating or something instead of just lust.

Ruza Maybe the master has a kinky taste? Some people actually have sex with real animals (which is cruel to the animal btw) so maybe sex with slaves isn't so strange.

Sex with animals is strange.

Also, I hear that rape is more about being dominating or something instead of just lust.

We talk about different species not just human races.

Hey, please don't destroy my wholesomely delicious thread with nastiness.

Do beholders even have any orifices other than the huge mouth full of teeth?

I agree with Oro. These questions really arent at all pertinent to playing an Ex Slave. Especially as I am quite positive that noone wishes to see characters who were the Sex Slaves of their masters. It's simply not what people come to this game looking for.

Keep it clean, Kiddos!

Mornington Crescent Another point which has come up; what are the 'traditional' uses for various races as slaves? That is going to affect them as well - an elf escaped from Traensyr is going to have had a very different experience to a dwarf, or if they'd come from the Lizardman medical experiments. What types of special fates (and accomponying psychoses) would be reasonably common?

I'd like to see this addressed. By the way, regarding the elf thing: I've heard that drow will just sacrifice surface elves to Lolth rather than taking them as slaves. Is this the policy on EfU as well?

\

I'd like to see this addressed. By the way, regarding the elf thing: I've heard that drow will just sacrifice surface elves to Lolth rather than taking them as slaves. Is this the policy on EfU as well?

Most of the Time Elves are Sacrificed to Lolth but many of them Keep ELf Slaves to regularly Beat and Torture. (They Figure Why let it escape its suffering with Death.)

I've got one to add to the list... How about warfare slaves? One supreme leader, that has many slaves being controlled by fear to do his will in combat, whether that be leading a batallion or beig cannon fodder... Generally speaking, goblinoids are very prone to this type of treatment, as they dont have very good strength of mind and are very drawn to the protection of stronger creatures.

The Hammered
Mornington Crescent Another point which has come up; what are the 'traditional' uses for various races as slaves? That is going to affect them as well - an elf escaped from Traensyr is going to have had a very different experience to a dwarf, or if they'd come from the Lizardman medical experiments. What types of special fates (and accomponying psychoses) would be reasonably common?

I'd like to see this addressed. By the way, regarding the elf thing: I've heard that drow will just sacrifice surface elves to Lolth rather than taking them as slaves. Is this the policy on EfU as well?

Generally yes your an elf they sacrifice you but there are exceptions to every rule.

On the other subject clearly no one has read Kyle's Diary <.< >.>

I have read it, and re-read it. It is my bible.

Nice post! One thing that seems wrong tough: you say mind slaves are supposed to have a higher life expectancy than patron ones, even tough patron slaves are favored. Why should that be so?

Furthermore, I believe it would be good to have in mind what kind of slave a character is supposed to have been according to his class, and particularly his race. Half-orcs, for example, make ideal gladiators and miners; gnomes mages make good scientists / teachers (if really drows or duergars could let slaves teach their children), halfling rogues would make good spies / assassins etc.

Denko Nice post! One thing that seems wrong tough: you say mind slaves are supposed to have a higher life expectancy than patron ones, even tough patron slaves are favored. Why should that be so?
They're used like menial tools, and since they're under complete control, require no savagery (whipping, etc.) to keep them in-line. Think of them like robots; refuel them 1-3 times daily, set them some simple, specific commands, and enjoy going about your days while they take care of mundane tasks about the home. Practically the only reasons they don't last past the 50% mark would be mental deterioration, and a hungry master whose newly carved storage closet is finished. Oh yeah, and gambling away their lives in gladiatorial tournaments; what civilized race doesn't get bored enough for one of those? 8)

Denko Furthermore, I believe it would be good to have in mind what kind of slave a character is supposed to have been according to his class, and particularly his race.
Stats and classes, race doesn't matter much unless you -really- badly need to have a master illusionist in your collection. Now you'll finally win the neighborhood lawn ornament competition, with the old 'classic' decor to boot!
Denko Half-orcs, for example, make ideal gladiators and miners
Usually, true.
Denko gnome mages make good scientists / teachers (if really drows or duergars could let slaves teach their children)
Nah, they'd either kill them, or stuff them into an anti-magic cell and use them for sages.
Denko halfling rogues would make good spies / assassins etc.
Right, take that new slave, give him stealth training and deadly weaponry, and set him loose. :roll: Might work with a lot of magical precautions, but you'd be better off just training your own men for these things.

to Orobouros: Great work!

in outskirs... i mean in the Rome was combined system of patron and chattel slavery, german, gal, illyrian and other barbarians were in chattel - system and italicians and greece slaves in patron system (in majority).

i think drows make a practice both this systems, especially by favoured slaves and half-drowes (its own kinds). they have special role in society as a war or house slaves.

Romans didn't employ chattel slavery on any large scale. Slaves had many legal protections, even the German tribes that took slaves often had customary protections for slaves.

To my knowledge, please correct if I'm wrong by pointing out a scholarly source, chattel slaver really doesn't develop until after the 15th century with the advent of mercantalism.

Yes, it was also around that time, for western culture, or a bit after, that slavery by skin color was introduced.

Lansert Yes, it was also around that time, for western culture, or a bit after, that slavery by skin color was introduced.

No, that is incorrect as well. Deducing that slave status was implicated merely by the color of skin did not develop until 1640. Even then, it was an extremely slow process that was not likely completed for a full generation after this.

You can go look over the development of Virginia's slave codes from 1620 to about 1680 to see how this plays out. It is extremely fascinating and excellent work has been done by a number of skilled historians. I can point you to actual scholarly articles and monographs if you are interested.

I'd at least start with the wonderful synthesis of research done by Mark M. Smith Debating Slavery, and Benjamin Isaac's The Invention of Race in Classical Antiquity. These two books formed the basis of the research that I put into this post.

There was a major difference between slavery based on skin color alone and chattel slavery. Western culture long stood against chattel slavery as far as I know.

So it was the 1600's not the 1400's that is a still a bit after. Considering that slavery has been around before writing a 200 year difference is minor.

Lansert So it was the 1600's not the 1400's that is a still a bit after. Considering that slavery has been around before writing a 200 year difference is minor.

Only if you prefer errors to facts. The timing is important. There is something happening in 1600 that wasn't in 1400. There is a reason this happens then, and not at any other point and if you're willing to ignore that it is highly lamentable.

They're used like menial tools, and since they're under complete control, require no savagery (whipping, etc.) to keep them in-line. Think of them like robots; refuel them 1-3 times daily, set them some simple, specific commands, and enjoy going about your days while they take care of mundane tasks about the home. Practically the only reasons they don't last past the 50% mark would be mental deterioration, and a hungry master whose newly carved storage closet is finished. Oh yeah, and gambling away their lives in gladiatorial tournaments; what civilized race doesn't get bored enough for one of those?
Patron slaves don't require much punishing either, since they are considered more like pet animals, expensive tools, or favored workers rather than cheap working force. This why their master can't afford to hurt them.

Second, the ones that use mind-controlled slaves are the mind-flayers and, apparently, the beholders (I'm not so sure about that, since the beholders slaves in Hotu weren't mind controlled). I don't know all the kinds of work a slave could do for ilithids and beholders, but what is sure is that ilithids feed on their slaves' brain (this is apparently their only food) and use them in gladiators fights at the end of which both gladiators die or can be considered dead, either because they are killed, either because their minds are completely destroyed (as was shown in Hotu). Since that kind of things don't happen to patron slaves, it is safe to assume their life expectancy is much higher.

Stats and classes, race doesn't matter much unless you -really- badly need to have a master illusionist in your collection. Now you'll finally win the neighborhood lawn ornament competition, with the old 'classic' decor to boot!
Nobody talked of mages collections. This is about logical facts, like not putting a halfling to work in mines, since they are not strong enough.

Right, take that new slave, give him stealth training and deadly weaponry, and set him loose. :roll: As was said in the article, there are several ways to keep a slave in line. A halfling whose family is also in the hands of his master will hardly pose any threat, will he?

Might work with a lot of magical precautions, but you'd be better off just training your own men for these things.
I don't think beholders are too good with stealth. :roll:

Second, the ones that use mind-controlled slaves are the mind-flayers and, apparently, the beholders (I'm not so sure about that, since the beholders slaves in Hotu weren't mind controlled). I don't know all the kinds of work a slave could do for ilithids and beholders, but what is sure is that ilithids feed on their slaves' brain (this is apparently their only food) and use them in gladiators fights at the end of which both gladiators die or can be considered dead, either because they are killed, either because their minds are completely destroyed (as was shown in Hotu). Since that kind of things don't happen to patron slaves, it is safe to assume their life expectancy is much higher.

HotU was the most non-canon Module to date, don't listen to that BS

Beholders can dominate

Oroborous Romans didn't employ chattel slavery on any large scale. Slaves had many legal protections, even the German tribes that took slaves often had customary protections for slaves.

To my knowledge, please correct if I'm wrong by pointing out a scholarly source, chattel slaver really doesn't develop until after the 15th century with the advent of mercantalism.

They certainly employed chattel slaves for jobs such as miners. I would also say chattel slavery was present since the man exists, but whether there were more chattel slaves than any other kind of slaves is another thing.

Also, one must differentiate between the slaves' rights and their masters' rights. Some laws didn't actually protect them as human beings, but rather as their masters' property.

Denko
Oroborous Romans didn't employ chattel slavery on any large scale. Slaves had many legal protections, even the German tribes that took slaves often had customary protections for slaves.

To my knowledge, please correct if I'm wrong by pointing out a scholarly source, chattel slaver really doesn't develop until after the 15th century with the advent of mercantalism.

They certainly employed chattel slaves for jobs such as miners. I would also say chattel slavery was present since the man exists, but whether there were more chattel slaves than any other kind of slaves is another thing.

Also, one must differentiate between the slaves' rights and their masters' rights. Some laws didn't actually protect them as human beings, but rather as their masters' property.

Sorry, you are not a scholarly source.

Next?

Chattel slavery tends to have specific rules. For starters, manumission is generally outlawed. Slaves are considered purely property by the law, and not as people.

In Rome, slaves were regularly manumitted. Slavery was generally viewed as a path towards ultimate citizenship. This essentially disqualified it from the definition of chattel slavery.

Now, I'm going to show everyone a trick for arguing about history.

It is called a citation. It is what helps you actually make a point and prove you know what you're talking about-rather than the normal internet tendency to just say "Hey, this is fact cause I say so!"

Much of the information I got came from the books I listed above.

Benjamin Isaac's The Invention of Race in Classical Antiquity. Mark M. Smith Debating Slavery.

My information on Roman Slavery came from: Michael H. Crawford's Rome and the Greek World: Economic Relationships

I will concede that chattel slavery existed in other ancient empires, but not the Roman system.

For example, I point you to: H. D. Baker's Degrees of Freedom: Slavery in Mid-First Millennium BC Babylonia

Yet, even here, slaves could still be manumitted. This simply was no longer the case by the 18th century in which anyone with black skin in America was considered a slave by the slave-owning classes.

My entire definition of chattel slavery implies that manumission is not an option. Recall my original statements:

I won't go deeply into a debate about whether it was what most people are familiar with or not, but suffice to say the "image" most people think about with poor living conditions, humans treated far worse than any animal, frequent whippings, poor nutrition is what "chattel slavery" looks like in a typical fantasy setting.

I've now been drug into that very debate I didn't want to go into to start with, but by my own original definition--chattel slavery requires the slave to be treated worse than an animal. There is no manumission, or it is so rare that it is nearly unheard of at all. Slaves are not even necessarily "valued" property, but an necessary evil kept around to get the work done. Something the master would prefer not to have to even look at. It is below degrading, it is below merely being an animal. It requires often elaborate intellectual defenses on why this "race" deserves to be treated worse than one's prize horse (See Calhoun's arguments in defense of Southern Slavery: Slavery as a Positive Good), and in fact, specific races are held to be slave-races.

So please, if you're arguing with me--either quote me some scholars to disprove what I am saying, or at the very least find me some scholar who defines chattel slavery in a manner that is inconsistent with what I've researched.

Finally, consider Virginia's Slave Codes just so you can see that the development of chattel slaver in the US was a slow development predicated upon what I judge to be the development of nascent capitalism in a mercantalist economy. In this, I tend to echo Robert William Fogel and Stanley L. Engerman rather than Eugene D. Genovese.

I also want to point anyone who wishes to launch an effective academic argument to look at the following Bibliographical Essay on Slavery.

As simultaneously informative and hilarious as this exchange is, you're on a tangent!