Should a evil char really need a good reason to kill a palidin? if so, what kind of reason? Cos by rights the palidin job as the classic script of a palidin is to kill evil. So cant a evil char as the classic script of a evil char be able to kill the pally?

Btw i would ask ooc first (duh)

I kill paladins with my evil characters whenever they have the chance; provided there is more motive than just "I'm evil".

"I'm an evil priest" GOOD reason.

"Paladin is actively thwarting my evil" Good reason

"Paladin told everyone I'm black hearted" Not a half bad reason if you're the vengeful type.

"I have evil in my alignment field, he's a paladin" BAD reason.

Granted, you don't HAVE to kill the paladin, you could always corrupt him, kill his friends instead, be diabolical.

There's been alot of threads about Evil, paladins, Good and PK'ing in the past, some of which have been particularly helpful on questions like this. You could do a forum search, and probably find them.

Basically, though, I think the DMs have expressed concern over PC's killing other PC's for little to no reason. If your evil PC kills a paladin just because he/she is a paladin, which is I think what you were alluding to, its not really displaying enough IC reasoning for FD'ing. Of course, paladins are indeed charged with vanquishing evil, to some degree or another, so it is probably just a matter of time before your Evil PC has a run-in with a paladin anyway- usually leading to the conflict which would provide an impetus for the PvP in the first place.

Also, keep in mind that PvP should ideally be a fun and enjoyable experience for both parties involved. Accordingly, it is usually a better option not to kill outright in the first of any PvP conflict. Subduing, taking some of their gold or potions and then leaving a poignant threat is almost always a better option. If they continue to persist, FD is certainly the alternative. Granted, there -are- situations where a straight-up FD'ing is necessary, ICly, but its something to keep in mind.

So yeah, don't kill a paladin just because he/she is a paladin! Brew some conflict, have a good time, then kill them! >_>

I feel like such a noob for asking this but whats FDing lol

No problem.

FD means 'Full Damage', as opposed to the default 'Subdual' mode.

PK means 'Player Killing'.

kk.

But basicly a palidin would want to kill a evil priest or whatevr (id imagine he doesnt care what they r, evil=get ass kicked) so wouldnt it b justifyable to say " i hit him back first " cos basicly a evil self preservationist would kill ppl wanting to kill him before they can touch him.

I may be wrong, but I don't think its acceptable. Basically, you find out someone is a paladin then just FD them straight up, saying "He was a paladin, I did it for self-preservation, because he would of killed me in the future if he had the chance." If I was playing a paladin, and someone FD'd me out of nowhere, and I asked them why, and they gave that answer, I wouldn't be having fun. I want some conflict, interaction, some RP.

There are exceptions though. A Banite preist and his right hand man who stumble upon a vulnerable and known paladin of Torm could certainly kill him. Adding an involving sacrifice situation would be entertaining for the paladin too, rather than just an on-the-spot PK'ing. The reason for doing so is enmeshed in historical and religious reasons, though, rather than just 'Oh, I'm Evil, here's a paladin, let's kill him'. A cleric of Mask, for example, probably wouldn't kill the paladin, even though Mask is an Evil god.

You're right in saying a paladin will want to kill an evil preist. One of the responsibilities, IMO, of playing Evil, is ensuring that you make it fun for everyone, not just you. Accordingly, a FD on the abolutist terms you describe here isn't what I'd find, as a player, desirable at all.

yeah harlstar the most fun is in trying to convince paladins that they are being misguided and to get them to question their beliefs and even in extreme cases get them to convert. but yeah evil charactors are by far imo best played with a bit of intregue but each charactor is different and has their own beliefs and ways of doing things

ok ill admit, seanseless killing is fun, but there arnt many Good vs Evil conflicts outside of quests, and good vs evil conflicts= ffffuuuuuuunnn

bah look around, im sure you will find there is PLENTY ;)

Harlstar ok ill admit, seanseless killing is fun, but there arnt many Good vs Evil conflicts outside of quests, and good vs evil conflicts= ffffuuuuuuunnn

Er theres ALOT of good vs evil conflict all the time. I mean look at the elections and there are others. You just gotta look.

At the risk of giving paladins yet another excuse to shy away from conflict, I offer an illustrated example of how evil characters and paladins can interact. The example may be found first here and then here. It's not the only possiblity, it's just better than name-calling on the Town Hall steps.

if one is gonna take on a crusade, like geting rid of evil from sanc... want him/her to kill any "evil" (bad aura by paladin) char? i think it would be lame =S

alogen if one is gonna take on a crusade, like geting rid of evil from sanc... want him/her to kill any "evil" (bad aura by paladin) char? i think it would be lame =S

Any paladin that just walked around "KILLING" every person with an evil aura he sees, honestly will be a paladin for about five minutes I'd think.

This is something a lot of paladins totally flub on actually. They see evil as a single, monolithic, wretched, unforgiveable stain on the soul. So they refuse to deal with anyone they sense evil in at all.

Evil could just mean:

1) A greedy shop keeper like Scrooge, who *could* be saved with some effort.

2) A man whose committed horrible crimes, but can be redeamed like Darth Vader.

3) A man who perhaps has lied, stolen, and even contemplated murder-but at heart wants to be a good man--Boromir in Lords of the Rings by the end.

So if a paladin walked around indiscrimintly killing these people; rather than trying to save them--he's for more evil than they are.

I think paladins frequently forget that they don't just smite evil people, they are warriors against EVIL itself. To fight evil, you must smite its minions when you have to; but to strike a far greater blow to EVIL is to redeam those who are falling into its clutches.

I've yet to see a paladin that tried to help bring evil people towards redemption on this server (could be some, I just don't see them). What I see instead are lots of paladins who actively push evil characters seeking redemption deeper into the grip of evil itself by refusing to help them find goodness or perform good acts.

"Love your enemies, they hate that."

So true, sometime's it's worse to have a paladin try to save you and bug you about it all the time then to put you out of your misery :)

a. I think it suit a preist/cleric rather a paladin.

b. A smart char wouldnt care, but enjoy and tease the good one. that way making the good one sin as it olny aids evil, instead of stop/redeem it.

I would like to hear your opinion about, though

The thing is, most evil characters don't really see themselves as evil, and they don't really try to further the cause of "Evil". They are just being themselves even though evil tangibly has a hold over their heart.

Some characters do, such as a devil worshiper hoping for more power ect. It really depends on the type of character.

Oroborous 3) A man who perhaps has lied, stolen, and even contemplated murder-but at heart wants to be a good man--Boromir in Lords of the Rings by the end.

Ooh, nice example.

a CE mass murderer (rouge i guess), palidins trying to "bring him to justice" (translation: haha ur gettin stoned :P) is the murder gunna just say "fine i give up, kill me kindly" or is he gunna cut the pallys to tiny little pices and pee on them?

Oroborous I think paladins frequently forget that they don't just smite evil people, they are warriors against EVIL itself. To fight evil, you must smite its minions when you have to; but to strike a far greater blow to EVIL is to redeam those who are falling into its clutches.

PHB 3.5 p42: "The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold the law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin."

"Divine power protects a paladin and gives her special powers.... the paladin can use this power to destroy evil" (emphasis mine)

Note the choice of the words DEFEAT and DESTROY.

Paladins exist to smite evil - not negotiate, not to redeem. That's the cleric's job - the paladin's there to kick evil folks' arses.

A paladin may, if so inclined and presented with the opportunity, try to redeem some evil person. But that's not his job - it's only something he might do if it's presented to him on a plate. As I said before, that's the cleric's job - the paladin's job is to put the boots to evil.

That's how I read it.

Frors, thank you, thats exactly what i mean, its kick ass or have ur ass kicked ppl!

Yes, however the paladins MUST respect the law. And murder is against the law, and usually considered an evil act, as it's cold hearted, and unfair for the other. In other words, the paladins must fight you in other ways. Create a bad reputation to the evil character. The main difference is that your evil character can break the law.

Besides, it's more fun to create conflict than to outright kill.

Harlstar a CE mass murderer (rouge i guess), palidins trying to "bring him to justice" (translation: haha ur gettin stoned :P) is the murder gunna just say "fine i give up, kill me kindly" or is he gunna cut the pallys to tiny little pices and pee on them?

In this case, I'd say it's fair - the paladin is hunting the rogue and actively trying to bring him to justice. Turning the tables on the hunter and using him as an example to would-be hunters could make perfect sense to the hunted rogue.

But FD'ing any old paladin off the street? No, I'd say not. EfU is a compressed world, a few players squashed into a few maps. Realistically speaking, just another paladin in the crowd would be just that - another bible-thumping do-gooder amongst many. So hunting down and killing a paladin on the sole basis that he's a paladin - that's not a good enough reason in my book.

But it's your character - if you have any doubts, ping a DM. It may be perfectly reasonable and acceptable to YOUR character.

Staring Death Yes, however the paladins MUST respect the law. And murder is against the law, and usually considered an evil act, as it's cold hearted, and unfair for the other.

Hmm... I'd say that's shaky ground and would depend on the diety of the paladin in question. Remember that a a paladin serves his god first, and obeys the laws second.

Don't quote me on this, but I'd guess a pally of Torm would be more inclined to execute a smited (subbed) evildoer than a pally of Tyr (justice and all - blah blah blah) who'd be more like to do the opposite.

Paladin's patron diety would be the biggest factor in this, I'd say.

This is a awsome topic, nearly have 3 pages :D .

I wouldnt just sneak up behind a pally and sneak attack his ass into next week, even though it would be kinda fun :twisted: mainly i would have a good reason. And what if a palidin encountered a evil dude in thw wilds of the underdark, its like international waters. And "translation: haha your gettin stoned" means they will beat him up, take him to the watch house, get him stoned, then the player of the evil char has to go though the painfull process of remaking as another char.

Harlstar I wouldnt just sneak up behind a pally and sneak attack his ass into next week, even though it would be kinda fun

Exactly - it would be fun, but not something you'd do as a normal person. I suppose it would be a thrill to leap off a skyscraper without the security of a parachute or any safety device. But it's not something people do because it's "fun". Don't trivialize the death of your character - the Fugue shouldn't be seen as the neighbourhood pub where you're on a first name basis with the bartender.

Harlstar mainly i would have a good reason. And what if a palidin encountered a evil dude in thw wilds of the underdark, its like international waters. And "translation: haha your gettin stoned" means they will beat him up, take him to the watch house, get him stoned, then the player of the evil char has to go though the painfull process of remaking as another char.

Answer the following questions: 1. Were you being hunted at the time? (ie: was it a chance encounter) 2. Were you in disguise? 3. If a rogue, did the paladin manage to spot you despite your being in stealth mode? 4. Were you out there with support and backup?

If you answered no to all of the above, you should find a quiet place to suicide yourself. You're obvioulsly unfit to survive in the Darwinian world of EfU, and should remove your tainted genes from the gene-poo... er... BIC-pool.

alright, let me make this simple for you

Palidins... detect... evil

so, disguse, who cares, your evil and they know it

being hunted, who care, your evil the'ye palidins

if your stealth then your only making running away harder because they will know your there and what if they actualy have a deacent spot/listen?

and what difference would it make if you were alone, really, it just means stealth is useless cos unless your in a party of rouges/monks/rangers theres a pretty good chance you cant stealth effectivly

so odviously when encourntering a peved palidin you are unfit to survive and should let them kill you.

The aim of the game is to make the encounter fun for both characters. You do not need to "kill" them. Really you shouldn't really be hunting and killing paladins just because they're paladins.

Harlstar alright, let me make this simple for you

Palidins... detect... evil

so, disguse, who cares, your evil and they know it

1. That's why there's PfG potions. 2. No paladin will attack just anyone on the road that they encounter solely on the basis that they've detected evil on him.

Harlstar being hunted, who care, your evil the'ye palidins

They're paladins - so as LG they really should have justification to smack you down - more than just detecting evil on you or not liking your choice of armour dyes.

Again, no pally will attack you in the wilds solely because you're evil.

Harlstar if your stealth then your only making running away harder because they will know your there and what if they actualy have a deacent spot/listen?

To do that would take a VERY dedicated paladin who either took rog levels, or has a LOT of points in spot/listen. as they are cross-class skills (ie: double cost) - and probably the evil rog has an absolutely horrible HS/MS.

It's a VERY rare case, and you probably have a reservation at the fugue anyhow, given your luck and PC capability.

*edit* Linelle, before you pipe up, yes we all know about Sinelle. She's not your everyday paladin, though

Harlstar and what difference would it make if you were alone, really, it just means stealth is useless cos unless your in a party of rouges/monks/rangers theres a pretty good chance you cant stealth effectivly

Huh? What? Can't stealth effectively unless all party members are stealthed? What -ARE- you talking about???

Harlstar so odviously when encourntering a peved palidin you are unfit to survive and should let them kill you.

Yes - if you answered no to all of the above, you SHOULD let the paladin kill you.

You cant stealth effectivly unless all party is stealth cos the palidin is probly gunna detect evil from the party member he cant see then he will hunt them out.

im just using the classic BG version of these classes (the info bout them it has) so its probly not that accurate but in EFU they have said stuff like "try to make your LG dwarf different from every other LG dwarf" so basicly it comes down to how the player plays his class/alignment.

And seriously im going through "i created a monster" syndrom with this post so if a DM is reading, pls lock this post, pppllllssss

Harlstar You cant stealth effectivly unless all party is stealth cos the palidin is probly gunna detect evil from the party member he cant see then he will hunt them out.

If you're stealthed, and the paladin hasn't detected you through spot or listen checks, then ICly they cannot detect you. If Detect Evil does reveal the presence of evil people who you haven't spotted or heard, you shouldn't play it as such.

If not spotted/heard, detect evil will just let you know that there is someone evil in the area. It doesn't reveal them.

Oroborous I've yet to see a paladin that tried to help bring evil people towards redemption on this server (could be some, I just don't see them). What I see instead are lots of paladins who actively push evil characters seeking redemption deeper into the grip of evil itself by refusing to help them find goodness or perform good acts.

I always thought the Paladin was the sword. He defended his cause and does not tolerate an evil presence under any degree. I thought it was the cleric's job to do any sort of redemption?

Ah, I thought a paladin had to focus on someone at length to Detect Evil on them, FP. My bad.

with wat fishing penguin said

Well wouldnt he just kill the party then? HUH!?

This thread is becoming tangental.

I think we can surmise:

- Killing a paladin simply because you're evil isn't really enough of an incentive. Rather, only kill them if there are IC reasons or it fits the character concept.

- Paladins are the warrior class of divine servants, and as such, they will have a certain militaristic component and duty in their dealings with evil. However, they are also a force of Good, and one of the qualities of Good is redemption or atonement, which the paladin may be willing to pursue with certain Evil people.

-When paladins Detect Evil, and their is a stealthed Evil person, he/she will be aware of this but will not know their identity.

Frors PHB 3.5 p42: "The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold the law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin."

"Divine power protects a paladin and gives her special powers.... the paladin can use this power to destroy evil" (emphasis mine)

Note the choice of the words DEFEAT and DESTROY.

Paladins exist to smite evil - not negotiate, not to redeem. That's the cleric's job - the paladin's there to kick evil folks' arses.

Finally, a cleric's job is not to redeem. A cleric is to turn other people to his and his god's beliefs, however sinister those beliefs might be.

Eh.

How, exactly, does killing someone evil help defeat evil when they'll just be raised? How does defeating an army of undead help destroy the necromancer directing them?

Defeat. Destroy. A paladin can destroy evil far more effectively by rooting out the causes, and not the effects. Going around killing people us just like lopping branches off a tree - it won't do the tree any harm at all.

i swear if this gets to 4 pages im gunna scream.

Palidins roles are to vanquish evil. If a palidin simply walks past evil with out making a attempt to destroy it the palidin will be breaking his oaths as a palidin.

So i am going to say the only solution that comes to mind with palidins and evil: Stuff it, make fighter/clerics. they work better anyway.

And seriously, and adimins or DMs reading, please for the love of all that is good and holy, lock this topic.

Harlstar Palidins roles are to vanquish evil. If a palidin simply walks past evil with out making a attempt to destroy it the palidin will be breaking his oaths as a palidin.

Again, I'd agree. However, I bring up activity and passivity as possibilities.

A paladin should be passively countering evil every moment - be resisting it, speaking against it, encouraging people subtly to stand against it and not support it. None of that takes effort and yet can defeat evil quite well - it's how laws and so on are effective. Public support and a strong citizenry.

Actively countering evil means fighting it. It means going out there, rooting through deceptions, finding out the root of evil and cutting it out. It doesn't mean stabbing the miserly shopkeeper, or the selfish workhouse owner. It means destroying the cause. Educating if need be, changing the law if need be.

Defeat. Destroy.

It's rare you can truely do these with a sword - in those cases, the enemy MUST be the true cause of the evil. That's not common. After all, how easily can, say, the Illithid be defeated simply by killing the thralls sent to attack the city? Yes, the thralls are going to die, because you have to defend those in your care - but it does not hurt the Illithid. Even killing the Illithid won't help - you have to kill the source. And that is correspondingly harder.

Also, consider that just because your alignment is evil, your character does not necessarily consider theirself evil. A cleric of an evil god may see killing paladins as part of their mission, but your average greedy villain probably just thinks they are just "looking out for number one." I doubt there are many people who go around thinking, "Man, I'm so evil!"

yeah. Point taken, what ever. Btw this makes reply 41, dont you think the argument has gone a little too far?

I've yet to see a paladin that tried to help bring evil people towards redemption on this server (could be some, I just don't see them). What I see instead are lots of paladins who actively push evil characters seeking redemption deeper into the grip of evil itself by refusing to help them find goodness or perform good acts.

Ivandur did this! Just not to Mandarin. They sort of got off on the wrong foot. (What with you demanding he sacrifice to a slime for defending Mandarin from one)

Anyway, Harlstar. I didn't really read the entire topic since it was sort of driving me crazy. Paladins are around to oppose evil. Not destroy it. Killing everything that's evil is evil. Thier goal is really more of like seeking to redeem evil and then resorting to other means when that fails. (Such as killing, if the case warrants it.)

Then to answer your question; Murdering a paladin just because you're evil is silly. I can't even fathom the IC reason behind it;

"Dude, why'd you kill Johunas the Paladin...?" "Duh. I'm evil."

See how silly it sounds?! Of course you do. ^_^

Harlstar yeah. Point taken, what ever. Btw this makes reply 41, dont you think the argument has gone a little too far?

I think they were simply trying to stop you on some false basis running off and killing random people soley based on "I'm evil lolz" or "I'm a paladin ur evil lolz" (Which in the language of we vets is called "Griefing")

Murder is a violation of oaths regardless of alignment of paladin and should only be used on the most sinister unstoppable baby eaters, detect evil gives you an idea that there evil not just how evil they are by the by.

(I've said my peice on this and now I'm happy.)

Here's another scenario for you.

You sneak attack a random paladin for no real reason than somebody TOLD you they were one (which in turn turns out to be a level 2 to your level 6) You're seen doing it by some random person , who you threaten and promises not to reveal your murder.

Instead they betray you to the paladin's fellows because they thought you are deserving of your upcoming fate, one of which is a level 9 paladin who hunts you down and destroys you (or brings you in for stoning which results in the same thing)

All's fair?

That above scenario I'm sure most players would accept. I think the unacceptable thing is killing a paladin just because they are one with no possibility of danger to yourself. It doesnt result in anything interesting storywise or Rp wise. It's just like some sort of half-justified Pking. You're being disrespectful to the PLAYER behind the paladin and you're just wasting your and their time.

depands, the char could be some pshyco killer assassin who just enjoyes the blood of his victim, most probebly, though, he will kill the witness as well :P

also, in need of something, (lets say, gold, and the paladin is being seen returning from the bluemushroom, thus assuming he HAS gold or good items) it would be ok to kill the victim, as your char is a filthy assassin.

it is most reasonable one would kill those who seem weaker, when he tries to earn money....

You dont need to kill someone to steal their 130 gold.

no, you dont need to kill them, you beat them to a pulp and then steal there gold, set a trap near them, sit back and watch the fun :twisted:

I see wat ur all sayin'; muder IG is like murder in RL, you dont just do it, you would do it with a reason. And yeah, chars that go around sneak attacking lvl 2 palidins dont usaly have a long life-span with the amazing justice system of stoning

ohh, forgot about subduing :P

A large amount of this thread isn't very good. I'd recommend just ignoring the thread entirely, to be perfectly honest.