Alright, I am creating an interesting secondary character, a Half Orc Fighter who (wants) to become a Paladin of Torm. (I sent an application in regarding the character.)

However, I do have a few questions:

My first question evolves around grouping/questing with Evil Aligned people. For example: The Stairs Quest. Hordes of Undead are sieging the stairs. A group of adventurers, which includes a Paladin, quickly organizes and proceeds to the stairs. Several of the group members happen to be evil. What should the Paladin do?

He could refuse to work with the group because of the evil aligned characters, which seems to be the choice I see most Paladin's make. However, ICly in doing that the Paladin would essentially be allowing hordes of Undead to make their way up the stairs and attack the city.

However, he could instead work with the "evil" people in the group to turn back the undead attacking the city. He could take the opportunity to try and turn them from their ways, as well as realize that as long as they are with him - he can watch them and it will make it much harder for them to perform evil acts.

It seems to me that the first option is somewhat metagamish, because if you heard of a threat such as hordes of Undead about to attack a staircase, everyone would be in such a panic that working with "evil" would be the last thing on a Paladin's mind. His mind would be in warrior mode, and thinking of a way to push back the Undead. And even if it was not, would he really object to an evil aligned person pushing back hordes of Undead if it is for the greater good? Even if the evil person is doing it only for the glory or the reward or some other selfish reason, he is still aiding in preventing an attack upon the city.

The not grouping with evil seems to be based around the fact that it is dangerous for the Paladin because the evil person may perform evil acts in front of him. In doing that the Paladin would be forced to stop it, and if he did not try and stop it he could be seen as a participant to an evil act.

To me it seems the intentions on the Paladin's behalf is what is important. It seems somewhat lame, and turning away possibly good role-play opportunities, to simply say "no, I can't go with this group because X is evil, and even though there is this impending doom upon us all, my high standards are more important than thousands of people possibly being slaughtered."

Case in point: Torm works with Mask to dethrone Cyric as Lord of the Dead. Torm disliked working with Mask but hopes to force him to change by thwarting his plans as often as possible. If Torm himself can do it, why can't one of his Paladins do it with the same goals in mind? At times there is a greater evil threat than some petty criminal or street thug.

My second question also regards how to approach evil characters (both PC and NPC). Several other Paladins who play here take a rather pro-active approach, where they are more than willing to kill any evil PC (or NPC's) that they encounter given the opportunity.

However, it always seemed to me that attacking someone willy-nilly simply because they are evil (and provided that they have not committed any crimes that the character knows of) would be something that would cause a huge alignment shift from Lawful to Chaotic. After all it is to my knowledge perfectly legal for evil people to exist, work and worship within the walls of Sanctuary. To my knowledge, a Giant Temple of Bane could be erected in the center of the city and there isn't much that can be done on the Paladin's part. He might loathe it greatly, but his only course of action would be to work with the Council to try and end its construction. Attacking the workers, the priests or trying to destroy the Temple itself would be a Chaotic action, seeing as how such a temple would first have to be approved by the Council. The Council is the Lawful authority in Sanctuary.

So, all that being said, what is a Paladin to do? What are some direct actions that would lead to him becoming fallen, aside from willingly committing or participating in an evil act?

This thread is a good read:

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/66/6669/paladins/index.html?amp;highlight=questing+evil

Re: questing with evil, paladins swear an oath not to do such when they become paladins. This is detailed in the thread above. If the oath is not upheld, then you're basically just a LG fighter.

As for dealing with evil creatures, it depends on who they are, and who the paladin's deity is. If the evil person is of a race that is generally not overwhelmingly evil aligned, such as the base races (human, elf, dwarf, etc), and/or a member of the paladin's society, then outright killing them is generally not the preferred method of action, as there's the possibility of redemption. When you get into creatures that are inherently evil, like illithid, goblins, drow, and so forth, then smiting them outright becomes more viable since redeeming them is generally not an option.

As far as the deity is concerned, they teach different things. Tyrran paladins would be focused on bringing them to face trial, a Tormite on using strong-arm tactics to make them repent and change their ways, a Lathanderite on showing them the value in starting anew with their lives, and so forth.

Also bear in mind that 'Lawful' does not entirely comprise of following the laws of the land, with the exception of Tyrrans. The primary Law that paladins must follow is their paladin code and the Laws of their deity. Lawfulness is any dedication to a power or group outside of oneself, be it a civic council or order of paladins, or a criminal syndicate. In your Banite temple example, a group of Tormites could well storm the place if the Council were accomplices in the Banites comitting their evil deeds, and the Tormites would not become chaotic. Tyrrans, however, would. So, it's in this sense that it really comes down to the dual factors of Deity and Opponent.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in that particular quest, it's hardly as if undead are rampaging through the streets of Sanctuary. If the city was in fact being invaded, I don't think we would adjust alignment if a paladin happened to defend the place in the company of evil.

In this quest, though, the undead are located way out in the ruins and the Watch are perfectly prepared to blow up the stairway in the event that the position below gets overrun. Destroying undead is certainly something that paladins would want to do, but it's not as if there's a shortage of undead to destroy in the ruins of old Dunwarren in many different locations.

Alright this helps a lot. The thread linked to in your post Metro, Thrawn posted a nice thread there that helped sum a lot of things up.

My concerns as a player is falling into one of the two extremes for a Paladin.

On one hand you have the "smite everything evil" Paladin. This type of Paladin will run around actively hunting evil, and anything that even remotely looks evil he will demand that they reform themselves, and if they refuse, he would try and kill them. (The law be damned.)

On the other hand, you have the "can't we all just be friends" Paladin. This type of Paladin seems to be the general type of character the server seems to be trying to avoid. In essence these type of characters eventually end up more neutral/chaotic good fighters, rather than Champions of a deity with a high moral code and standard.

What I want, as a player, is to create a Paladin that is unique - that yes is beholden to the code and his deity dogma, but that isn't "cookie cutter". I want a character that is individualistic and can stand out as a paragon even if placed in a group of Paladin's.

This is the primary reason I chose a Half Orc as a race, specifically because of the interesting role play involved, and the duality and internal conflicts he will have. In addition to the internal conflicts he would face external conflicts; having to face prejudice from others, and need to constantly prove to himself and others that a Half-Orc CAN be a Paladin, that he can be just as good as anyone else - if not better.

However, I want him to stand out more than simply based on his race, I want him to be a real paragon of virtue, honor and justice. To be the very epitome of goodness and Paladinhood. (With intense internal and external struggles, involving moral, philosophical and some even innate due to his heritage.)

So, just to sum things up and get some yes or no answers: 1. It is wrong to quest for the Duergar because they are evil. A Paladin should not readily accept a quest from an evil aligned NPC unless to combat an even greater evil.

2. A Paladin should NOT use evil merchants, in particular the Duergar.

3. A Paladin should NOT, in no uncertain terms, group with evil aligned characters to do quests. He may only work with evil aligned characters if there is an actual impending threat - such as a DM using NPC's to lay siege to the town.

4. The whole Law/Chaos thing is based off the deity the Paladin follows, not the actual laws of the land. Could a DM tell me how a Tormite would view things? Torm serves Tyr, and Torm although not as anal about laws as Tyr, is still rather anal about going through the proper channels and following the Law. His only deviation to my knowledge is his command to "propose changes to existing laws not new ones". Should a Tormite actively seek to destroy evil, even if it results in breaking the Law? What if he has no evidence that the evil person has done anything wrong?

5. How would a Tormite view a fallen Paladin? It seems to me that it would be perhaps one of the worst things for a Tormite to encounter... and oddly enough my character's step-father (who raised him) was a Fallen Paladin of Torm. (And it is through his influence that my character strives to be a Paladin of Torm.)

6. This is not so much a question for paladins, but good aligned characters in general. Do other good and neutral aligned characters receive alignment shifts for grouping and aiding evil aligned PC's and NPC's? It seems to me that if evil is so corrupting that simply coming into contact with it somehow stains your soul, that it should affect all non-evil aligned PC's and NPC's - not just Paladin's. (It is to my knowledge that Paladins receive evil points for questing/grouping with evil characters, because of the inherent corrupting nature of evil. It seems to me if that is the case, it should affect all non-evil aligned player characters not just Paladins. Otherwise, a chaos shift makes more sense, seeing as how the Paladin is breaching his personal moral code.)

7. How does a Paladin work with the council, who obviously has some members who are evil aligned? Working with the Council, and especially trying to become a member of the Council, would inevitably result in the Paladin working with evil aligned individuals.

I will probably think of more questions as I go along. However, those seem to be the big ones right off the top of my head, and now it makes sense why the Helmites set up their shrine outside the city. I think my character might have to follow suit. Sanctuary just doesn't seem like a place that a Paladin can hang out without some serious alignment shifts.

1. It is wrong to quest for the Duergar because they are evil. A Paladin should not readily accept a quest from an evil aligned NPC unless to combat an even greater evil.

Yes, it is wrong to work for evil beings.

2. A Paladin should NOT use evil merchants, in particular the Duergar.

Correct.

3. A Paladin should NOT, in no uncertain terms, group with evil aligned characters to do quests. He may only work with evil aligned characters if there is an actual impending threat - such as a DM using NPC's to lay siege to the town.

Correct, it's a breach of the paladin's oath.

4. The whole Law/Chaos thing is based off the deity the Paladin follows, not the actual laws of the land. Could a DM tell me how a Tormite would view things? Torm serves Tyr, and Torm although not as anal about laws as Tyr, is still rather anal about going through the proper channels and following the Law. His only deviation to my knowledge is his command to "propose changes to existing laws not new ones". Should a Tormite actively seek to destroy evil, even if it results in breaking the Law? What if he has no evidence that the evil person has done anything wrong?

It's not like a Tormite will go on a rampage of assaults in the streets, they have more respect for the law than that. However, if the law is openly supporting evil, and causing a conflict with their god's dogma, they may take up arms when more peaceful means fail without breaking their code. Tyrrans are much more closely bound to mortal laws than Tormites, but it's not like Tormites will break laws carelessly.

5. How would a Tormite view a fallen Paladin? It seems to me that it would be perhaps one of the worst things for a Tormite to encounter... and oddly enough my character's step-father (who raised him) was a Fallen Paladin of Torm. (And it is through his influence that my character strives to be a Paladin of Torm.)

Tormites, moreso than most paladin faiths, would likely look at a fallen paladin with very strong derision, or general bad feelings. Tormites are basically the zealots of good.

6. This is not so much a question for paladins, but good aligned characters in general. Do other good and neutral aligned characters receive alignment shifts for grouping and aiding evil aligned PC's and NPC's? It seems to me that if evil is so corrupting that simply coming into contact with it somehow stains your soul, that it should affect all non-evil aligned PC's and NPC's - not just Paladin's. (It is to my knowledge that Paladins receive evil points for questing/grouping with evil characters, because of the inherent corrupting nature of evil. It seems to me if that is the case, it should affect all non-evil aligned player characters not just Paladins. Otherwise, a chaos shift makes more sense, seeing as how the Paladin is breaching his personal moral code.)

No, a paladin would get a chaotic shift for breaking their code in aiding evil beings. If they were present and did not act while evil deeds were committed by the person they were aiding, then they would get evil points, as would everyone in the party.

7. How does a Paladin work with the council, who obviously has some members who are evil aligned? Working with the Council, and especially trying to become a member of the Council, would inevitably result in the Paladin working with evil aligned individuals.

Being on the Council is a tremendous way for a paladin to make a great difference in opposing the evil that shares that post. The Council is much more rivalry than partnership.

Thanks Metro, this has given me some good ideas to play with my Half-Orc. By the way, how do I know when an application has been received? Do I receive a response via e-mail or in game?

My Half-Orc is already created (he shouldn't be breaking any rules, and to my knowledge wouldn't require DM approval), my application was based around my request for him to be granted some type of quest to achieve Paladinhood. He currently is just a Lawful Good Fighter.