It's not uncommon in EfU for DMs to jump on and spice things up a bit on a scripted quest for a party. It doesn't require a lot of time for us to do (I despair of ever running a DM quest under less than 2 hours) and it can (ideally) be fun for all involved.

I thought I'd make a thread where players can ask questions relating to this as well as discuss what spice they've liked and what they don't.

I also think I'll chime in with a few comments later, since there does seem to be the occasional confusion about what spice is all about (particularly to people new to role-playing or the server).

So what's the policy about people -asking- for DM spice? Is it something that's acknowledged, or does it defeat the spontaneity?

(One time I asked for a boss battle at the end of a brief expedition I led outside the city. Waiting for us at the mouth of the Narrows was a Bat Boss and two bats. :D)

I generally dont mind spice, though it is nice when the DMs toss in a little extra for reward if the spice was especially costly. The only times I get a little annoyed is when I end up spending 3k in supplies on a highly spiced quest and end up with nothing. (I cant recall the last time this happened)

My experience of spice often comes in the form of making the quests mechanically more challenging. This can include possesing the monsters and then implementing tactics when the normal AI often makes fights predictable and straight-forward, beefing monster stats, or pulling monsters (ie - making the spawns all fight you at once). There is almost always a reward at the end, often substantial, in terms of items, or occationally exp. I think that there are two points two spicing, one more obvious than the other.

The first, the more blatant, is to challenge the players more, keep them on their toes. When you do the same scripted quest over and over again you can loose that edge and sometimes neglect roleplaying. When you know a DM is around you start playing more carefully and roleplay more, knowing that you need to display that you -can- roleplay, that you are in for the quest more than the exp at the end, and that now you have to seriously worry about keeping your character alive. :wink: I think this is where the label "spice" comes from of course.

The other is fun factor. After talking to a DM once about spicing, it's not just about you and Newton's third law (for every challenge there is a reward scaled to the difficulty of the challenge), but it is also very much about their enjoyment. DMs aren't your butlers, nor actually intelligent AI who are here simply to make your game more interesting. It is their reward to see your characters pull through risky and unpredictable situations, to see how you and your team manuvre something dangerous and unconsidered. Sometimes they don't see you pull through, and you flounder. Players must take this time to remeber that "life isn't fair". If you were pointe and just got crushed while your buddies escaped, don't consider the 1/6th exp drain a loss which outwieghs what you just did. It builds your character, and griping about the immediate loss has effects on others. I've seen this happen. First, the whole party gets bitter, or regretful. Then the DM overhears it and get's bitter as well, because it's not the DM's job to spice the module up, its the DM's fun. And when the result and reward of that fun, the whole purpose of the play is ruined by griping it can put a guy down, or it can really boil a guy's blood.

DMs almost always correct their mistakes (goblin sharks killing you wish vorpal crits; thank you Bioware monster templates), and help you with problems, but when they present to you a challenge and you piss on it, it cramps the whole system of DM/player harmony. I don't think it would be a problem to walk away from the challenge though if you feel your character will not be up to it. Potions of Retreat, Invisibility, tumble skill, cloak or rod of sanctuary, and more can get you out if you feel the heat and are a perfectly good way of just saying "no thanks" politely and IC. DMs will back off if they see this, they aren't -trying- to kill you, no matter what prejudice you may think is being inflicted upon you. Though, if you look like you and your party is regrouping, they may press their attack :P .

It's been said, "this is a game, take it lightly." There is almost nothing irreplaceable in the server, and those special things that you earned (custom or rare items) which are, won't be taken from you permanently because of DM spice gone awry. You can always get more exp, you can always find troll cape and underhelm drops, but you can't always regain the trust of a DM that is through playing with you when you put a stick in their wheel, nor recover a character you wantonly threw away out of grief of a "poor" death.

That's mostly all I have to say. Keep up the good work team, and stay on your toes and keep your cool, players.

I'm normally ok with more challenge. But when I go from level 5 to level 3 and lose all my eq, it's very frustrating to be ambushed by a large group of enemies unplanned while I'm still struggling to recover.

My takes on spice:

What I like: I usually divide spice into two sorts. The first, when a DM possesses a monster/s and uses different tactics then what one would usually be accustomed to encountering on a scripted quest. The second is when a DM does this, but also uses the possession to interact verbally with the party. I like both, but the latter significantly more. Conversing with monsters is always more fun than simply fighting them. And usually, when a DM does this, it proves to be funny and engaging- it also usually serves as an impetus for showcasing your character's personality further. For example, if an Ogre during that quest broke down and made a plea for his life, promising to do no ill-deeds ever again, this would open up some good RP avenues for the party. The haughty Gold Dwarf might just walk up and mash it brains with his warhammer. The rogue elf might sneak behind it and put a dagger to its throat, and demand information on where the secret treasure hoard is. The goodly knight might decide to let him go. And- when the party is mixed, you then get the interactions which spurn off these decisions..disgreements, conflict etc etc. Additionally, people get an insight into how your character works and deals with situations.

What I don't like: Sometimes, a DM merely possesse the creatures on the quest, looking to, as I said, introduce some different elements to the fighting...some variety and challenge. Before a DM does this (I hope!) he/she would check the levels of the party and their skills etc. to determine what would be challenging, yet still entirely possible. They usually compensate this additional risk and challenge with some bonus loot. This is, personally, a good thing to do, though maybe not as enjoyable as the added interaction mentioned above. What bugs me? People who die and whine incessantly about it. Everyone dies. Everyone dies lame deaths at some point. Everyone has lost their inventory to a crash. We play online, its not a perfect system. Just because a DM is obviously spicing the quest, it doesn't mean they are trying to 'kill you off' or anything. I've heard numerous accounts of 'DMs targetting me' and it kind of pisses me off: DMs are here to support your character and his/her development, not 'kill them off' because they don't like you. Sometimes DMs -do- overpower it, I imagine a perfect balance is hard to attain, but DMs will raise you if an encounter of theirs is obviously overpowered. Getting angry and abusive about it solves nothing- somtimes they might of missed your particular death, having been observing another part of the fight etc. A polite tell is all it takes, to ask if maybe your death was a bit hard. You should only do this if you are certain it was overpowered.

Not-so-great experiences: I'll start with the bad! I was playing Skret once, and him Gruff and Hraf'n went to do Ogres. We are all solid enough, in the 6-8 range I think, with decent gear etc. We strolled in and killed a few, but then got swamped as the DMs (MCI and Metro I think) possessed an Ogre who called up for reinforcements. We got hit pretty hard, pretty quickly. Hraf'n and Skret went down. Gruff in the meantime managed to bail, and the Ogre group chased him outside. We got TR'd, and played it as having been knocked out. Gruff snuck back in. Then we made our mistake- we started talking in a leisurely fashion, and I myself was quickslotting unimportant things etc. when the Ogre posse trundled back in. We got minced. I was a little sullen about it at first, but then I thought about it: if we just got knocked out, why the hell didn't we buff up ASAP and prepare for the Ogre's inevitable return? We stuffed up majorly, and paid for it. As we should of.

Great experiences: Well this tirade better come to a closur soon so I'll keep it to one of the -very- many cool spices I've enjoyed. I was playing Avoun, and him and Ismail were doing the Child in the Ruins quest. We pwned it pretty hard, and cawila spawed a bloated *spoiler* which was really tough, but doable. We killed it, then he possessed one of the few remaining *spoilers*. What ensued was a conversation with the monster, which was pretty damn funny. On top of that, we learned a bit about the server history and quirks through the conversation as it progressed. It wasn't a huge amount of spice or anything, but the immersion was great.

I have really enjoyed the extra attention I've gotten at the goblin fort recently (thanks Orpheus and whoever else was there). I much prefer it that when several dangerous people attack another group, usually in their home, the defenders react intelligently.

The setting is supposed to be one of the most inhospitable in FR. There is a learning curve to surviving and doing well in EFU.

There are certain books ingame whos sole reason is to aid in surviving.

My favourite DM Spice would straight out be the portal Quest. Upon getting to the end, some stuff happened (cutting out any spoilers in case the DMs want to use it again) and in the end i was playing dice over mine and someone elses life so a Kobold could go free. Didn't work out in the end, we got away and he decided to keep the Kobold. Very, very fun, and i do so like it when the spice is extra RP with none or only a small amount of extra combat.

One of my favorite things about D&D is the high adventure aspect that one can experience while raiding a tomb, crypt, or otherwise dangerous and terrifying place. Though mechanical challenge boosts can make things more dramatic, exciting, and make one's heart race, the best spice I've yet to see has had little to do with actual challenge. The second best experience combined the two.. to great effect.

Event 1:

To elaborate on my favorite spiced event, it was simply an added chamber with a ghost of an old general that lived in the Hoaran Temple. He gave us a long winded story, as one would imagine a general would tell of a glorious battle he remembered fondly. He continued on, telling us the story of his nemesis, and longtime rival who's name I forget (Something equally as longwinded as his story was) The event finished by the ghost of the General facing his long time hated rival in the Hoaran Crypts - though he was too weak, and this was where we came in. His death resulted in some neat artefacts being found on his body, and a rather creative means of finding the value in them was issued. Well, we found paintings, artwork, decorative daggers. Stuff that wasn't really useful, but valuable to some people, NPC's who lived in Sanctuary.

While there was some added challenge to the scripted quest, the emphasis of the spice was telling a story, and implementing some terrific artefacts related to the story. I'm sure this takes more time than the average spice, but this one ranks much higher than most things I've seen.

Event 2:

Though at first I despised this event, it began as any normal Orog Fortress quest would. BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF LOLZ TIME TO PWN. Though this time would be different. This time, due to security concerns, the Orogs of Fortress Kuhn had seen fit to hire mercenaries to protect them and their weakly tribe. Meet the Orog Mage Hunters of the Silent Spear Tribe. High Stealth + SR + Perma See Invis + Greatsword death attack. Moving along - we danced several times. I was able to make a few very narrow escapes (Doors opening and closing were the only means I had of knowing if one was around!), and other times my heroic group was able to save me within inches of the fugue's embrace. Eventually, my character's hubris got the best of him, and he was chopped into two pieces. They had wanted my wizard's stave. Anyone who has played a wizard knows.. these things are rare, a mark of vanity, and usually an accomplished wizard.

So where was the fun in this? It was a bittersweet death filled with irony, and a small plot hook. Embedded in the intense mechanical challenge, and new NPC monsters in the quest was a chance for redemption, to retreive what was stolen, and a small story about the tribe that we had encountered.

To conclude, I've always loved spice that manages to incorporate more than just a mechanical thrill and challenge. The most memorable events that have involved my characters and are spiced scripted quests have involved a small story likely created in just a few minutes, and a few unique pieces of loot.

I remember that spice that magic_salesman mentioned. It was very early on in my NWN online career (all of a few months ago), and I REALLY enjoyed the RP this spice played out.

Sometimes DM quests and spice in scripted quests can be a little too hard... but yes. as has already been mentioned, I've always had the supportive experience of being given a second chance by the DMs through a true resurrection or the like.

I'd also like to reiterate what someone else has said about the book shop's MANY books on survival, tactics and layout/threats of the local area. they are GOLD to new arrivals to sanctuary.

I have tasted a lot of spice here, and I'm happy to say that by far the greater part of it has been sweet and dandy.

That said, I have also seen all baddies in the neighbourhood brought down on the heads of the would-be heroes without obvious cause, warning or any explanation whatsoever (or loot for that matter, but that's not a major thing to me). In some of the scripted quests, this is a sure way of transporting one or more characters to fugue town. Guarantied.

I can understand how this can make some players become disgruntled or far worse, make them begin to lose faith in the DMs. Trust is important in all areas off life, including EfU, and it must be nurtured, by those with power and by those without.

So, I think I shall use this post to issue a plea to the DMs, to try and make it obvious, or at least present some clue to what's arround the next bend, if they want to bring down the house on a party.

Ibe

I'm going to go with the group consensus.

1) Spice is great. Repeating the same scripted quest is as dull as hell the sixteenth time around. I want something to change when I do the quests.

1b) DM quests are far better. There are some ways to speed them up to less than two hours. One of the best systems I saw on Arabel when I DM'ed there was a creation by Agrafes that let us persistantly store DM quest data--monsters, placeables, and all we had to do was put treasure back in a placeable, replace traps, and reconnect the transitions. It took out 50% of the wretched set up time on a quest (an hour or half hour typically); AND even better it let me run the same DM quests for multiple parties adjusting each time to their strengths and weaknesses--and I noticed each time I ran the quest, the length of time it took to run it went down.

Plus, as Gygax brags--once one party did it the next got afraid/eager--"I hear there is a huge cat beast down there!" and it was fun to watch that and look forward to the first party to find and kill the cat beast which the first time was a Diretiger, but for the next weaker party was a buffed up tiger, and the third party faced a werecat.

2) I've been on DM quests that ultimately just did nothing more than challenge me with no rewards-at all. At the very end, that's not that much fun because part of DnD really is the rewards. Even past that, as much as a good challenge is still rewarding in some ways, one that ultimately drains your character of supplies also makes it harder to even do scripted quests for awhile. I've survived extremely hard DM spice, only to wind up dying on a normal scripted quest later because I simply had run out of supplies finally.

Players use a prodigious amount of potions on DM events, and oddly potions are not always an item a DM is thinking about in terms of rewards later. You may get five hundred gold, or a 1000 even--and often this barely replaces the potions you got. Sometimes it still doesn't come close.

2b) One tool I've begged for, and I mean begged for when I use to DM was a device that would determine the gold cost of a player's items-in gold, weapons, potions, miscellaneous. Before a DM quest, I could examine the player to see where they stood; and afterwards ensure they stood higher than they did before. Lacking that tool, I tried--often failed--but tried to make it a habit to just ask one or two people I trusted in the party (hey, was the xp and reward worth the risk?)

3) Sometimes, I know DM spice has saved my life though. I can think of one quest where all Metropakt did was ensure our party wasn't slaughtered-and at the end he still gave us a great reward. Generosity counts for something.

What I find myself enjoying the most is when a DM takes possession of an NPC character of a quest and initiates a dialogue with the party, possibly allowing the party to come up with alternate solutions to the quest rather than just hacking and slashing their way through, depending on how they interact with the NPC. This is especially entertaining when the group consists of characters with conflicting interests and a very different sets of morals, or a lack of them altogether, causing some major conflicts between the players while trying to reach a conclusion on how to proceed.

In short; When you create situations that allows the players to use their skills at diplomacy, intimidation and/or subterfuge in order to get through a quest.

These situations are also good opportunities for the characters to earn some positive or negative alignment modifiers.

Howland Wrote:

EfU is a challenging server, and that is made clear numerous places in the introduction and description of the server. It is intended to have a survivalist feel. Some players embrace the challenge, learn from their mistakes, and do fine. Others have an extremely hard time with the slighest set-back and take it personally when they die. The first kind of players will (hopefully) have a lot of fun on EfU, the second would simply be happier if they found a different server out there. We're not for everyone!

So very true(IMO) to both the NWN game, and more specifically a PW RP based server such as EFU. My first true experience on a RP server was some time back. During that time, death was treated with a shrug because the concept of RP was very new to me vs 'hack-slash' gameplay. It was only once my gaming began to evolve and I became more familiar with RP that the death of my characters via Spice began to irritate me. Only once a player matures and understands the concepts and mechanics of RP/DM Spice(I eventually learned) will they then be able to cope with, and accept, death through DM intervention. It boils down to maturity lvl-some have it, some don't, some will get it, others never will. Just that simple.

When a DM creates a unique quest or tag along on a scripted one with you and your party, my advice is to enjoy it. Don't get the sick idea in your head that just because a DM is watching or is present, your chances for any kind of success whatsoever are doomed from the start. That first off drowns out the RP of the situation on a whole, dragging other players down with you and it also creates a false perception of the player/DM on the other end of the screen. DM Spice is something that you should enjoy-even if the final outcome is your death.

If you think DM Spice is all about the loot, then again you're wrong. I used to get very frustrated and just plain angry when I would die per DM Spice and lose all my wonderfull hard earned sacks of goodies. Heres a hint: Don't get attached to any of it. I found it much easier to deal with item loss from death on quests with Spice, if I carried a basic longsword vs a longsword with stacked abilities. That way, while I was still adjusting to Spice and DM intervention(which caused me to die many many times over) I didnt get so angry because I lost all my sweet gear. Losing a plain jane longsword is much easier to deal with and through that, I found it a better way to focus on the RP, the situation I was involved in at hand, and thus hopefully, become a better player.

Of course as far as EFU goes, I have found that if the monsters are so much harder than you or your group could possibly contain, the DMs WILL and HAVE at times, raised me. They aren't here to make my life hell(Bear tries his hardest). I prefer interactions from all aspects be it player or DM. And some DMs like Mr. Arkov(who is now an Ancient Dire Arkov) have been around long before when DnD was PnP. The DMs have alot to offer via Spice be it RP, loot, a different twist to an otherwise "groundhogs day scripted quest".

Bottom line is enjoy what they bring, good and the bad. Life's a bitch we already know this so why let something like Spice make you think otherwise.

Today, a very interesting and unexpected DM spice appeared, on the clowns quest. I hope we didn't annoy the DM by turning down what could have been a DM quest he had been preparing for a while, but we had IC reasons to do so. I also find it great that at a certain point, the DM decided that the "uninvited guest" had done enough damage, and left. The strange thing though was that some NPC characters seem impossible to beat, whereas the "elite" of sanctuary will never match them : is this something normal?

whee that was my first dm involved quest today -thought it was really good!

Spice: Great when done with finesse and style, but can get out of hand when the dm thinks of what he or she can/has overcome in the past with a good party and perhaps directly relates those experiences onto the perhaps less capable party in game. When it gets down to it the more game mechanically/tactically inclined players will always have an easier time at larger spawns. However, I feel that spice that you can overcome in novel ways is by far the best. An example:

One of my first characters on EfU was a pally of Lathander, and doing the original lost child in Dunwarren quest a few extra mephits were added, and they were dm controlled. The actually fairly well equiped party was quickly soundly beaten back out due to traps and the added/controlled spawns. What made it great was after recovering and entering a dm allowed me to 1) roll after attempting to rp persuading the mephits to leave (which occured by the way by rolling a twenty for a combined score of over 30) 2) allowing him to then attempt to raise the dead characters by performing dagger surgery, whith permadeath occuring for them if I failed. (again actually I got extremely lucky and rolled -very- high.) We then finished the quest and I was able to hammer a dagger into the mechanism to secure it from opening the portal again. This is the spice that brings the online game experience closest to that of PnP. This was by far the best quest experience I have had to date, either in spice or in a fully planned dm quest. Big kudos again to whoever ran that, exceptional DMing.

DM quests are great as well, and can be a bit mpre personalized to a particular player and or group. I really enjoy quests that come out of in game action and that really mean something to the character.

One complaint from many I have heard here already is the sometimes the payout does not cover the expense. Sometimes I don't mind that, it's nice to get away from the norm (for me at least) of always gettting a beefy payout for completing something. That said, it is rather hard sometimes on the fighters, who especially use a ton of potions in healing. They tend to spend the majority of their cash on recovery potions/healing bags to survive a later adventure. Of course, who says the split has to be the same for everyone.

When it comes to DM interaction, what I love the most is a variety of options. When in a special situation, why fight when you can negotiate, sacrifice a teammate to slavery, donate some items, find an escape route that might have been more dangerous then the original obstacle, etc. etc.

If a DM can make me think on the situation, I am a very happy camper.

What I dislike is general spawn additions where a DM might possess a random spawn, such as a wizard or boss figure and make things generally harder. Yes, it's challenging but I don't see it as adding to roleplay or general interest all too much, and quite honestly PVP doesn't make me really utilize my thought processes.

Though if it DID add to roleplay value (say a group of bandits appear on the quest and demand something or else), then that's all gravy.

I'll reply without having read the above responses so that my response is somewhat pure in nature.

DM spice for the most part has been fun. I've had the luxury of having experienced pretty much all of the DM's adding something to some quest I've been on. (the exception being maybe arkov and Cawila simply because they're more 'the man behind the man' sorta involved).

I've had some really lame boring spice all the way up to the 'OMFG! What in the ******* Hells was he thinking?!' sorta spice.

Case in point involved a Banshee showing up in the Hoaran Temple - casting Death Magic almost every round. Hell half our party died in the first casting. My paladin (even with a high fort. save) still died after the 4th casting. Only strategy was to run like hell.

Othertimes, the Spice has been needed to simply survive a given quest. I embarked on a Portal Quest. There was only 3 of us since we didn't metagame the quest beforehand. We had a tough time. There came a point where we realized that we could not feesibly finish the quest, but we couldn't turn back either. I politely asked a DM to allow us to RP our way out of the dungeon. He agreed and the sacrifice was that each had to give up a powerful artifact in our possession to the NPC's that the DM played.

Yes getting the XP from killing the monsters would have been fun...as would have keeping our really good treasure, but in the end the DM spice was the only way to survive it.

I'd have to say that it's a 50/50 ratio of enjoyment to frustration when it comes to DM spice. Yes, I've been killed by swarms of monsters that suddenly attack when there is no way to retreat in a quest, and yes I've been that one high level character occasionally surviving and subsequently 'cleaning up the mess' caused by the swath of destruction DM spice has caused.

It takes a strong willed person to play EFU and, at times, DM spice only tests that resolve that much further.

I think DM spice is best complemented with PC decision. In OOC discussion with another player, I heard that they were given one of two options, with consequences for each. That gives players a feeling of fairness and justification when things pan out one way or another.

Some quick examples that I liked: Early in my career, my mid-level F/C was taking a group of newbs through Mary's quest. On the way out, several Chosen appeared and our magic weapon spells were wearing off. After holding off the Chosen for a while and listening to their DM interjected comments, it became apparent that no one could really harm the monsters and my character took the initiative and called for a retreat. The newbs wisely followed my character's lead, and everyone survived what was quickly turning into a disaster. I got my first DM XP for that, and it was quite a thrill.

It was a simple, non-plot intensive bit of spice, but that as much as anything hooked me on EfU. Immersion was MANY times more effective and it was huge fun.

Recently a high level barbarian challenged the Stoutheart Clan to offer a champion a duel for the right to meet in the Arena. After he whomped our 9th level fighter soundly - which was obviously the DMs intent - we were a bit humbled but no one died and the RP was quite memorable on both the DMs and our part.

I'm not going to comment on the negative things I've heard, but in each case it appears that if the players had been given subtle or even obvious indication that they were about to take some very high risks, that they wouldn't have minded character death so much.

This is just a suggestion, but if the DM can give clues/hints that the players may be biting off more than they can chew, then it's only the players' fault if their 6th level pally attacks the Balor that just threatened to destroy their party if they didn't leave immediately. It's an extreme example, but it appears that players are the most bitter when they feel like they had no RP way to avoid death other than to imbibe a INVIS potion and run like a little girl.

If you are playing a proud, fearless fighter that hates magic and potions, being surrounded by DM placed Troll Beserkers on the way out of a dungeon after a quest will seem like the DMs have decided to waste your character. Again, if that 8th level dwarf barbarian has some other way to survive than drinking an invis potion, it will make for some great RP. Maybe a Troll Beserker's female mate runs up and cries, "Stop this fighting Grok! Don't you see that fighting these small ones is wiping our people out?"

The trolls pause, and the dwarf has an opportunity to RP his way out now. Back up slowly, bribe them, whatever. If the player decides that Ungrimm the Stupid will smash Grok in the back of the head when he turns and will likely go down under a swarm of angry trolls, that's his call.

I'm sometimes floored by the creativity of the DMs in similiar situations. Illuminaughty played the Grunstubhle foreman in such a vulgar, repulsive manner that my character obviously would have been disgusted and left ASAP. That's the stuff we remember and enjoy, and why we play EfU.

Lastly, even a little DM XP shows a player that his RP efforts are appreciated and noticed. This is not to suggest that I am a XP whore and that's all I care about, but even 50 XP to an 8th level character shows that the DM approves and enjoys their character. When that 8th level character can die and lose 9000 XP over a couple bad die rolls, what's 50-100 points in the big scheme of things?

If no XP is warranted, a polite suggestion via Tell or a later PM might help to elevate the players RP and thus the RP of the server.

Don't intend to step on DM toes here, but if I get even a snippet of DM XP, it goes a long way to reinforcing that what I am doing is adding to the server as a whole - and also invigorating and inspiring me to keep it up or to improve.

Great thread idea!

I've had a few days to think about how to address a few of these points made, and here's the best I can do (chat on IRC sometime if you want anything further, or to talk about specific incidents)

Challenge

It's so hard to balance a quest. Players sometimes think that a DM is going to save their characters if they decide to charge the fifteen umber hulks you'd placed down a corridor. Having said that, sometimes we mess up (we're human beings!) and make things too hard or too easy, and we alter things on the fly. Sometimes, of course, we just crash out. I crashed out before in the middle of making some extra hard monsters, who went on to wipe out a party.

The important thing to remember though is that we (the DM's) are not out to get you, though the characters we possess may well be. We have to try to kill your characters, while secretly hoping that we 'lose' when we fight! It's a crazy situation, but that's the way it is. Sometimes, people can't take this - they think that we purposefully 'picked' on their character when we get a few criticals and down their characters but not another players, but it's honestly, honestly never the case. We were all players before we were DM's and the chances are we went through what you've been through too. If you really feel hard done by, talk to us, but if you're angry, it's best to wait a while so you can speak rationally, and not turn any constructive criticism or dialogue into a vitriolic flame-fest.

Reward

Fair points made, I always try to reward parties (though sometimes I get distracted and get driven elsewhere) with gold, and loads of potions too, but people sometimes don't notice that the chests at the end of a quest contained twice as much loot as they normally do. I'm running out of items on my avatar at the moment, though.

In my opinion, however - the server is overflowing with gold and items as it is. You'll always get excellent experience for a DM quest. Think of it as a conversion of gold into experience. Or, a chance to use those amazing items you've been saving to look like a hero for a minute or two.

I'll write some more maybe later, but my energies gone now for the time being.

I'm gonna yack for a moment, then quote myself.

From a loot and levels perspective: There is a limited amount of high-level loot on EfU. If you bought all your loot at the vendors, you could legitimately only spend about $10,000 gold before you'd run out of things to buy. This is why most of our characters with level greater than six are running around with gold to spare.

Random DM Spice presents you, who desire Loot/Levels, the chance to get the first one of those. In random spice, there may be one or two pieces of loot that you can never get anywhere else - that are not buyable.

Further, it presents you with the opportunity to impress a DM by your roleplaying...which can lead to -targetted- DM spice, where a DM is like "Damn, that guy is awesome. I'm going to go whip up an item perfectly suited for him, and then run a quest where he gets it.". This is not uncommon - we do it all the time.

-Cross (Not going to quote myself, go read the DM Q+A board)

This has been a good thread, I like what I've read here. I will say briefly that sometimes pure combat toughness and enhanced monster spawns can be pretty exciting, memorable, and a real opportunity to show off how much of a badass your character is to both your party and the DM.

Being a hero, kicking ass, and doing it with style is a particular pleasure that NWN offers that I would not deny the playerbase. Doing so may at times not even seem suitably rewarding at the the end of the quest (I know how much of a pain it is to keep a character well supplied), but it does earn the respect of the DM team that may manifest itself in other ways.

I so happen to enjoy DM spice, to a certain level, which is currently sky high. DM's possesing NPCs who emote/talk through them really gives a kick, and I really do enjoy it.

As well, living through an ambush at moderate expense, without losing much to any group members is really, really great, expecially when you find a small reward, as a small "Good job." A couple of potions always casts a big whooping smile on my face.

I, however, feel it's a bit edgy to posses NPC Spell Casters, as they are often above avarage PC level, thus having access to Spells which PCs (Or rather, NPCs when unpossesed) Caster's spells are pre-set, for a good reason, I feel. A simple example, which, thankfully, never occured to me:

A single possesed NPC Ogre Mage, spamming his strongest spells upon us: *Spoiler of Spoiler* PC warriors are, when OOC unprepared, are very much unable to live through this. There's of course tactics one may apply, such as sending 2 Rogues ahead to deal with the Mage; though this is often impossible as the next group is not too far ahead, counting more Mages and Berserkers. What I'm trying to say here is; please, when possesing NPC Mages which arn't DM Custom made, take it a bit easy with your spell choise.

Last but not least, something which I feel that 'should' be mentioned:

Adding traps to scipted quests: Fine, forces you to always bring a rogue, though there's a "but."

But :roll: I feel the Electricity Traps are far too often used, and far too strong. Why not place a moderate Spike Trap instead? Or a nice Blob trap, or perhaps a Sonic trap -- things which may, or may not paralize a PC.

I find the amount of Electicity Traps far too much, Far too strong, Far too uncounted for, and it adds so few, appart from a trip to the fugue, as it's a trap invented for but one reason: Kill.

Now! There's that, and there's this. I'll talk a bit more about the "this" now.

IMO there's no problem whatsoever adding a moderate (30-80 dmg or so?) to protect a nice added lewt box. 8)

DM spices are alot of fun from all the experience I've had, but you have to always have 2 backup items/spells/etc to fall back on to escape when it gets a bit hairy. This always makes it in with the survivalist theme because it can get dangerous and sometimes you have to leave. You can't be a hero Every day.

The only times its not been fun have been electric trap days. I've had two of these, ever I think, maybe 3 and they are one hit kill things. Traps can be good but these, due to their design should probably never be used because they are beyond the control of a DM usually once sprung. The Dm can't say "the eletricity arcs through one person and earths itself on a little metal statue" or something if they think it's going to go bad like in pnp.

Sometimes quests can fail due to too many people trying to be the "hero" and thus running off on their own. If you're going to run, run together or not at all. That doesn't mean dillying around until your fighter has used his sixth medbag, but it does mean taking a Little forethought and then going.

Also, the Dms are getting crafty with siege weapons now. If someone's dropping catapult rocks on your head..don't stay there! There will usually be a little hiding spot you can take cover in.

Howland did a good job with catapults yesterday, it got a bit hairy at times. Howland, if you don't mind me saying, when using grease bombs, I personally wouldn't follow it with a fire bomb immediately, it toasts anyone without a reflex save and they're stuck to taking another two or so catapult rounds before they can hide. Caltrops and grease go well together, or caltrops and fire.

The grease ammunition makes an excellent challenge for low levels trying to assault something without actually hurting them. Maybe a caltrop mix for some low pain too.

Just wanted to mention a fun experience I had some time ago.

This was before the clownland quest, and me and Dagam were romping through the portal quest. Occassionally if you go off into a little side room you are greeted with a welcoming party on the way back. This time, it happened to be about a dozen clowns or so. I believe the whole party froze for a second or so, just thinking "Are those f*cking clowns?" before *someone did something* and everyone ran off in seperate directions. It was great fun, and completely unexpected, and of course, no one knew what any of the clowns did in particular to make them so dangerous. The *something that someone did* made us gather plenty more of the usual playmates for that quest. Turned out pretty deadly.

Turns out we could have gotten some sort of warning if we investigated one of the areas we figured was empty early on. Apparently a kobold had stenciled in something on the walls about "Boring. Waiting here for stupid fools to trick." That was a blast.

Had my first DM spice experience and it was awesome. Not to spoil it for anyone else but we had a fairly experienced group doing a quest defending a certain place. When the typical battle was over and we were talking some post battle RP banter, a new threat appeared very unexpectedly. It caught us off guard and we had to scramble to regroup and develop some tactics on the fly. Not to mention the fact that because certain characters were with us we had to argue what course of action to take and who the threat was.

It was great on the fly RP-ing with the characters scrambling and arguing. Then to make it even better we left the place we were defending and the threat reappeared where we least expected.

It was a great twist to keep us on our toes and it spawned some great RP dialogue and character interaction.

Thanks DM's!

here is a big complaint and i hope it is adressed, though in all good spirit, there is a serious lack of criminals in sanctuary and the surrounding area, monsters are plentiful but actual bandits, outlaws, theives, muggers, murderers, etc, are never to be seen. I think (dms) randomly throwing a balanced outlaw party at PC party would be fun to do if possible, i would imagine its not hard or time consuming to do... im really surprised i have no had one give me your money or else encounter so far... my 2 cents. If you dms did this 2-3 times a week, it would get around fast, and people would know, hey the bandits and smugglers have been getting really outragous, and would create plenty of fun RP and counter RP and branching story (ie the defense force is assigned to patrol certain hot areas, and it starts turning into a mini iraq, stuff like that would be immersive rp fun...)

btw the game is great, spice is great, dms know what to do and how to make the game fun,

im copying this into suggestions, perhaps it would be best adressed there

I play a bandit character, who along with some other bandit characters have mugged and conducted outlawery.

I've also come across highway robbers on the roads.

So its already done, you just aren't stumbling across it.

i once had a half orc that was uber at lvl 4 ((took out 5 imps by himmself 8) )) But Some players thought i was possesed sense i was so strong. being half dead at the time ((may char was a dumbass and kept touching the cold book in the child in warrens mission)) i Was totalled. a dm came along started a few earthquakes and sent a few imps in. well my char ran for it ((thinking that he wasns't supposed to but Oh well)).

Another time was with my sari ((popular among the highly spirited gnomes and hins)) Did portal quest and had a mindflayer popup. We ran. but had a blast

Nice with the boggs quest ((forgot the dm's name)) my anirin quick-fingers had a blast and some nice loot.

As for d.m spice, it's one of the best things to enhance enjoyment in the game.

The bits I really like are the things that arent related to extra challenges. (though this definitely makes things more enjoyable if the party is overpowered for the area).

1) Like entering an area you've been before and meeting an NPC d.m controlled party already in there fighting the mission :)

2) Having an NPC actually JOIN the party (this was done a lot in PnP) but doesnt seem to have made the move to NWN much yet. Ideally 2 d.m's could to this.. one controlling the NPC thats on the parties side.. the other doing the normal monster control.

3) Entering a zone and finding the quest inhabitants in a serious war with some other rival/opponent group/race. The players can then choose to join in on one side or the other, watch the battle (or flee especially if spells are being thrown) - related to point (1).

4) Having npc's around sanctuary go about normal things, or even talk to other NPC's (not always the players) as an ambient effect.

5) D.m Controlled Bar tenders giving tips, hints, gossip to people at the bar, which may or may not be useful; especially after a little coin has passed their way. (or a few drinks being bought etc)

But I feel the Electricity Traps are far too often used, and far too strong. Why not place a moderate Spike Trap instead? Or a nice Blob trap, or perhaps a Sonic trap -- things which may, or may not paralize a PC.

I find the amount of Electicity Traps far too much, Far too strong, Far too uncounted for, and it adds so few, appart from a trip to the fugue, as it's a trap invented for but one reason: Kill.

I have to agree here. I don't believe the problem I've had with traps in the past is one that the DMs have perpetuated by "spicing," but I feel that several traps are simply devastating rather than interesting or challenging.

Most of the time people tend to avoid the regular traps on the scripted quest. Who can blame them for not stepping on a 30-40 damage trap that they know is there? Especially when it isn't the barbarian with 80 HP running over them but the Sorcerer with 30?

A low damage trap (5-10) that hits multiple party members becomes a real drain on resources, but almost always does not kill. A trap that dispels buffs eats up spells but does not kill. Poison gas that dazes or eats a few stat points, that's fine too. I'm not a scripter person but if you could just have traps set to cast a spell when triggered you've a nearly endless array of effects that teach a non-fatal lesson. You can add enough traps so that the quest eventually becomes undoable without a rogue and no one has to die to figure that out.

i agree with chaos on basically every point, particularly,

"2) Having an NPC actually JOIN the party (this was done a lot in PnP) but doesnt seem to have made the move to NWN much yet. Ideally 2 d.m's could to this.. one controlling the NPC thats on the parties side.. the other doing the normal monster control."

indeed can be great IC and OOC fun, and gret for RP and immersion... i know the DM's are fully capable of thinking of some creative ideas.

derek1289 i agree with chaos on basically every point, particularly,

"2) Having an NPC actually JOIN the party (this was done a lot in PnP) but doesnt seem to have made the move to NWN much yet. Ideally 2 d.m's could to this.. one controlling the NPC thats on the parties side.. the other doing the normal monster control."

indeed can be great IC and OOC fun, and gret for RP and immersion... i know the DM's are fully capable of thinking of some creative ideas.

I know madcaddies did this for me at one point, and we do it from time to time. There're technical issues though! NwN is funny when it comes to factions!

I'll second the above NC certified answer. Had it done a few times early on in the server history and all three times the NPC ended up dead after combat due to an errant arrow due to a faction conflict. Or ran into combat. Or attacked a PC and got an AoO as the dm tried to possess and move away.

As for the traps, bring them on. It's one way to ensure a party is kept on their toes and actually lets the scour do their work. Instead of following two steps behind and spamming "Hurry up", and "Scout faster".

I've only browsed the responses. I'll read everyone's master thesis soon, I promise. That being said...

I am a fan of the little spices given to standard quests. They come without warning, and can prove a challenge that was unexpected. Often they can be something that is not combat based, which is fun for RP too. There is often a fine reward for what occurs and then you have a story to tell or even a little plot to look into. Some of my favorites have been cause and effect spice. The DMs are often very willing to let you use your own creativity to solve things. But your own creativity always has a price. I remember a scout friend finding a hidden door in the sewers. We went to investigate but we could only get so far. We remebered seeing a battering ram placable in our fortress so we went and got it. After some pounding, we were able to get past. In another instance, I used the same trick. It took awhile to get through the door, and wouldnt you know it, there were some things waiting for us. Then I get the DM tell: You did make a bit of noise after all XD. Things like that are great. Full blown DM quests are tons of fun, but usually are limited to a handfull of people here and there. I'm sure much more goes on than any of us think. The little spice here and there is a nice way to make things interesting. Some people bitch about not getting enough reward. Whatever. There is more reward than what is tangable for you character.

I always like anything a DM decides to throw at me. Granted, it's not that fun to face a Balor Lord in the town hall bat quest, but it seems most of the DMs have figured it out by now. Being a DM is hard in this respect, because challenge is different for every group, even of the same levels and loot. They can consider what they can see, but player combat intelligence also goes into it, as well as the character. Traps are good, but they shouldn't be used to punish people, but add more of a challenge, whether it be light traps that get in the way that you are able to walk over if you don't have the proper tools, or heavy traps that guard an optional loot/room/whathaveyou, where you do need the proper tools to get through, but don't necesarily need to get through.

Some encounters may be too hard, some may be too easy. As has been said to death by some people, I like all DM spice, and if it's too hard, they'll usually correct it. If it's too easy, they'll usually make it harder as it goes. Since I don't fight a lot, and haven't been on a quest proper in a while, most of my DM spice comes from roleplaying with a possessed person. This isn't the point of the topic, but some of my most rewarding moments have come from an NPC talking about how much they like my character, which can be applied to combat: I prefer anything with this, extra combat is nice, but convincing that bandit that he's wrong, and after a while have him turn to a different life is a nice twist, but having him also run off and mug someone else is a cooler twist. My thoughts on the matter, though they might be off-center.

Once, on a different server, me and a ragtag group of adventurers were coming back through a cave system after dealing with an angry Orc Warband at the end, only to find the caves we cleared out on the way in filled with goblins, bugbears and orcs. They'd set up ballistas and barricades and they lay siege to our position for almost an hour before someone got the bright idea to sneak past and get aid from a nearby city. It's nice when a standard quest takes a sudden and unexpected turn, and it's especially nice to have to fight for your life when there's nowhere to run.

IF this threat includes other servers I have only thing to say

Demonic chicken....picture standing in the town square minding your own buisness...then a chicken walks up...and meows...

wasn't too bad, got 100 RP XP for RPing fleeing for my life from the thing (which was harmless) meanwhile my halfling buddy was trying to convince the chicken's friend, the buffolo, that is shouldn't bark...man it was funny finally finding the gnome that made those things...he words were all slured together, the dm not putting ANY spaces in his speach.

Coincidently its also the last time I buy a clock of one, it exploded just as I left the room. I never once suspected that ticking noise...

Nuclear Catastrophe

derek1289 i agree with chaos on basically every point, particularly,

"2) Having an NPC actually JOIN the party (this was done a lot in PnP) but doesnt seem to have made the move to NWN much yet. Ideally 2 d.m's could to this.. one controlling the NPC thats on the parties side.. the other doing the normal monster control."

indeed can be great IC and OOC fun, and gret for RP and immersion... i know the DM's are fully capable of thinking of some creative ideas.

I know madcaddies did this for me at one point, and we do it from time to time. There're technical issues though! NwN is funny when it comes to factions!

Well you could do it by simply having the other d.m make a normal character and get given X xp to make them to whatever level is needed for the story. Then join them through the normal means. This character could be given an undropable special wand to initiate some stuff d.m like if thats needed. This way the character comes up on the player roster, looks like a player (because they are) but is actually a plant for the story. The character may die or simply wander somewhere never to return after the story is over.

Sounds pretty convoluted to me! There are loads of PC's, we don't like using NPC's sometimes, because they then tend to become the centre of everything - people stop thinking for themselves and assume that they're going to be led by the hand. An NPC guide, sure. An NPC being possessed by a DM for 2 hours to help them on a quest? Naw. It's moot, really, this, because as we've said, we do do this from time to time, and there's plenty of past examples to draw upon. Sometimes people just slaughter their potential 'guides' of course, without considering their actions, and then wonder why they didn't get informed about the drow patrol in the coming tunnels :P

The d.m plays a normal PC character to play some part in a story, they may not be the guide, and the story may lead elsewhere anyway. It's just a tool. And this way the collusion of the assistant d.m is almost invisible because apart from the fact the party may NOT have seen this other character before. They wouldnt know.

I know as a character i've led parties places that havent been d.m quests.. a d.m has popped in later, am I a plant? They dont know that, I may or may not be one, just because d.m activity suddenly appears doesnt mean one thing or the other.

This to me is the way to PLAY npc's how they're playing in PnP. and in fact it's better because in PnP you always KNOW their npc;s, in NWN you cant.

The d.m plays a normal PC character to play some part in a story, they may not be the guide, and the story may lead elsewhere anyway. It's just a tool. And this way the collusion of the assistant d.m is almost invisible because apart from the fact the party may NOT have seen this other character before. They wouldnt know.

That creates a problem though, it works better for NPC since characters interact with them on a regualr basis, having Spencer from the Rock Bottom join your party for five mins, sounds like good RP, having a random character you have never met though doesn't sound too good to me "Hi, we're about to embark on this dangerous mission to go to X but we have drow patrolling in between us there our target. You are a complete stranger and we have no knowledge of your skills abilites or even if you can be trusted, but want to come with us anyway?"

I didnt like Boggs casting spells on me but i DID like still being able to kill him with expertice mode on :twisted:

Also, the Deadly Spike Trap that was still there after i died on it, causing me t die a second time because of a keybord misclick just made me wanted to hunt down the person who put it there a little bit :)

It's okay now, the char is perma-dead and the world keeps spining

I just get the feeling that plenty of the players think "Oh no, not DM spice" rather than "yay, a DM - maybe a challange and some reward".

The morepart of "spiced" scripted quest have left me with an empty healing pack and depleted potion box. And with little to show for. I am not saying you need to drop a "treasure" on every party you make a challange for, but sometime it seems some thinking need to be done before making a quest more challanging for the already struggeling party?

The nature of EfU can sometimes produce rather silly parties - maybe 12 people are online. You have to team up with something not really fit for any adventure. I love more the DM mercy than the DM spice.

Voular I just get the feeling that plenty of the players think "Oh no, not DM spice" rather than "yay, a DM - maybe a challange and some reward".

The morepart of "spiced" scripted quest have left me with an empty healing pack and depleted potion box. And with little to show for.

I think it stems from the mindset that the only form of quest or conflict of any sort is one in which guts spray the floor.

While I too appreciate the BUFF BUFF BUFF LOL TIME TO PWN school of questing, I find approaching every form of DM interaction (or PvP conflict) with it to be myopic. I mean, how many pop quizzes on how well we OOCly understand the game's mechanics do we really need?

Much of the DM spice I've seen has favoured figuring out puzzles ICly. Such spice challenges our RP skills. I don't think this is something the DM team needs to bother warning us about. I think it's something we just need to bear in mind.

As with all 'spice', it works best when subtlely applied.

(One day the top fell off my oregano shaker and the whole lot fell into my pasta sauce, I tried to rescue it.. but the damage was done.)

If a d.m shows up on an adventure, I expect something interesting, something different and off the wall, something to think about, not as you said just a way to deplete my health potions.

Coming across a locked door (thats normally open) with a strange message in runes written below it for example.

A provocative thought : it seems to me that nobody minds DM spice so long as its their teammates who are targetted by the spawns.

Quite valid argument, Aekula. :)

Thanks to Hellkast for the spice yesterday on the pig farm quest. It was good to participate! Even better, it was an RP spice, not monster galore, which is a big plus to any spice.