Sure, its neat. You cast it and a Tyrantfog Zombie appears. I'd really like to see something of an added benefit to casting it upon the corpse of a PC though. Something stronger perhaps. Make it worthwhile for those of us with a Necromantic bent to actually try to find *cough* a body to raise.

Definitely. I think RD has worked on something previously, but he's such a flake that he never got around to finishing it.

You'd think that with our illustrious Leader's character history we'd already have something in place!

9lives You'd think that with our illustrious Leader's character history we'd already have something in place!

//:://///////////////////////////////////////////// 
//:: Animate Dead 
//:: NW_S0_AnimDead.nss 
//:: Copyright (c) 2006 Chult - DVL 
//::////////////////////////////////////////////// 
/* 
    Summons undead depending 
    on caster level. 
*/ 
//::////////////////////////////////////////////// 
//:: Created By: Merc_Artax 
//:: Created On: March 07, 2006 
//::////////////////////////////////////////////// 
 
#include "x2_inc_spellhook" 
 
int GetControlledCreaturesHD(object oPC, int nSpellID, int nRacialType) 
{ 
    object oCreature = GetFirstFactionMember(oPC, FALSE); 
    int    nHitDice; 
 
    while (GetIsObjectValid(oCreature)) 
    { 
        if (GetRacialType(oCreature) == nRacialType) 
        { 
            effect eLoop = GetFirstEffect(oCreature); 
 
            while (GetIsEffectValid(eLoop)) 
            { 
                if (GetEffectSpellId(eLoop) == nSpellID && GetEffectCreator(eLoop) == oPC) 
                    nHitDice += GetHitDice(oCreature); 
 
                eLoop = GetNextEffect(oCreature); 
            } 
        } 
 
        oCreature = GetNextFactionMember(oPC, FALSE); 
    } 
 
    return nHitDice; 
} 
 
void SetCreatureLevel(object oCreature, int nLevelUpTo, int nClass=CLASS_TYPE_INVALID, int bReadyAllSpells=FALSE, int nPackage=PACKAGE_INVALID) 
{ 
    int nCurLevel = GetHitDice(oCreature); 
 
    if (nCurLevel >= nLevelUpTo) 
        return; 
 
    int nLevel = LevelUpHenchman(oCreature); 
 
    while (nLevel < (nLevelUpTo) && nLevel != 0) 
    { 
        nLevel = LevelUpHenchman(oCreature); 
    } 
} 
 
void main() 
{ 
 
    // SpawnScriptDebugger(); 
/* 
  Spellcast Hook Code 
  Added 2003-06-23 by GeorgZ 
  If you want to make changes to all spells, 
  check x2_inc_spellhook.nss to find out more 
 
*/ 
 
    if (!X2PreSpellCastCode()) 
    { 
    // If code within the PreSpellCastHook (i.e. UMD) reports FALSE, do not run this spell 
        return; 
    } 
 
// End of Spell Cast Hook 
 
    object oCaster      = GetLastSpellCaster(); 
    int    nCasterLevel = GetCasterLevel(oCaster); 
    int    nMaxUndeadHD = nCasterLevel * 2; 
    int    nMaxCtrlHD   = nCasterLevel * 4; 
    int    nMetaMagic   = GetMetaMagicFeat(); 
    float  fMultiplier  = 1.0; 
 
    if (nMetaMagic == METAMAGIC_EMPOWER || nMetaMagic == METAMAGIC_EXTEND) 
        fMultiplier     = 1.5; 
    if (nMetaMagic == METAMAGIC_MAXIMIZE) 
        fMultiplier     = 2.0; 
 
           nMaxUndeadHD = FloatToInt(nMaxUndeadHD * fMultiplier); 
           nMaxCtrlHD   = FloatToInt(nMaxCtrlHD * fMultiplier); 
 
    effect   eAnimate     = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_FNF_SUMMON_UNDEAD); 
    effect   eAura        = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_FNF_LOS_EVIL_20); 
    effect   eFailure     = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_COM_CHUNK_BONE_MEDIUM); 
    effect   eDominate    = SupernaturalEffect(EffectCutsceneDominated()); 
    int      nCount       = 1; 
 
    ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eAura, oCaster); 
 
    object oTarget = GetNearestCreature(CREATURE_TYPE_IS_ALIVE, FALSE, oCaster, nCount, CREATURE_TYPE_PLAYER_CHAR, FALSE); 
 
    while (GetIsObjectValid(oTarget)) 
    { 
        int   bDead       = GetIsDead(oTarget); 
        int   nRacialType = GetRacialType(oTarget); 
        float fDistance   = GetDistanceBetween(oCaster, oTarget); 
 
        if (bDead && fDistance <= 20.0 
                  && nRacialType != RACIAL_TYPE_UNDEAD 
                  && nRacialType != RACIAL_TYPE_CONSTRUCT 
                  && nRacialType != RACIAL_TYPE_OOZE 
                  && nRacialType != RACIAL_TYPE_ELEMENTAL 
                  && nRacialType != RACIAL_TYPE_INVALID) 
        { 
            location lTarget     = GetLocation(oTarget); 
            int      nTargetHD   = GetHitDice(oTarget); 
            int      nCurCtrlHD  = GetControlledCreaturesHD(oCaster, SPELL_ANIMATE_DEAD, RACIAL_TYPE_UNDEAD); 
                     nCurCtrlHD  = nCurCtrlHD + nTargetHD; 
 
            if (nTargetHD <= nMaxUndeadHD && nCurCtrlHD <= nMaxCtrlHD) 
            { 
                object oUndead = CreateObject(OBJECT_TYPE_CREATURE, "skeleton_02", lTarget); 
 
                ApplyEffectAtLocation(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eAnimate, lTarget); 
                SetCreatureLevel(oUndead, nTargetHD, CLASS_TYPE_UNDEAD, TRUE, PACKAGE_UNDEAD); 
                ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_PERMANENT, eDominate, oUndead); 
            } 
            else 
                ApplyEffectAtLocation(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eFailure, lTarget); 
 
            // don't know why I put this in anymore
            if (GetLootable(oTarget)) 
                SetLootable(oTarget, FALSE); 
 
            DestroyObject(oTarget); 
        } 
 
        nCount++; 
        oTarget = GetNearestCreature(CREATURE_TYPE_IS_ALIVE, FALSE, oCaster, nCount, CREATURE_TYPE_PLAYER_CHAR, FALSE); 
    } 
} 

Last version of an animate undead script I wrote quite some time ago but that actually was never put to use. To use it one has to prepare the module somewhat: a) create a blueprint for a lvl 1 undead (skeleton) b) create a conversation for this undead with several commands for the skeleton (most important: release binding command) c) most importantly the bodies of dead creatures must be visible and not despawn (which may be circumventable by rewriting the script)

edit: Forgot to tell you what it does. The script itself tries to get as close to the original rules of summoning undead via Animate Dead as stated in the SRD which reads...

Animate Dead Necromancy [Evil] Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Targets: One or more corpses touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.) Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit) The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit. Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones. Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy. Material Component: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.

The original idea was that the spell would consume the body of a PC -- I don't think it's as desirable for it to just work on NPCs, as that script does. RealityDevoid is currently in the process of writing a rather nifty Animate Dead script that will hook into our death system (where most of the complications crop up).

I am aware of the "animate a dead PC"-wish. The reason I never wrote a script for that was the roleplay situation which might emerge from using this spell on a PC ... he would never be able to respawn as his dead body was consumed by the spell (still talking about the roleplay aspect, from a technical point of view aka scripting this won't be any problem). The script above was just posted to give an inspiration. Nothing more to it then this.

This looks really interesting. Would this system allow people who have taken skill focus: necromancy to summon more than one *coughs* companion?

This sounds like a really interesting idea. However, if this is used on PC's what would happen to the character?

Would it work similar to a raise dead spell (without the benefits), where a character respawns where they died, at full HP, with the status effects of an undead creature? (Harmed by healing, can't be crit hit, can be turned, etc.) However, if that were to happen, what happens if they die yet again? Could Animate Dead be used on their corpse again? What happens to their soul? Can they be raised if they are Undead?

IMO, it would be interesting if someone who died and then was raised as an undead creature received all the benefits (and penalties) of an undead creature. If he died again, the only two ways to be brought to life would be Resurrection (Raise Dead wouldn't be powerful enough) or to be re-animated with Animate Undead. If you are Animated you respawn where you died with full health, but you receive full experience loss.

Just my thoughts and a possible suggestion on how it could work.

Merc_Artax he would never be able to respawn as his dead body was consumed by the spell

I hope this is not how it is planned to be implemented. I am thirty thousand percent against a scripted method to force a character to quit.

It could be possible to script it so that when the created undead creature dies, it produces the same corpse used to create it in the first place, no?

And from there, it could still be possible to resurrect said character.

Guess you necromancers out there will have to wait for RealityDevoid's solution. And there's always a way to circumvent or avoid final character death with a well planned system of explanations... Just keep in mind that PvP has never been a strong part of the P&P rules of DnD. Animating dead NPC hurts no one ... except perhaps the DM whose pet this NPC might have been before ;)

My interpretation of DnD as to PvP and Animate Dead: I would think that the PC won't be able to play as long as his undead body is walking the prime plane. After the necromantic magic leaves his body (because he got "killed" again or released from his master's binding) there might be enough organic material left to cause a resurrection thus combining body and soul again.

RealityDevoid's interpretation might look completely different as he knows the death system of EfU in detail (including workarounds and caveats I am not aware of).

I'm definitely of mind that people shouldn't be able to play the animated person. But yes, while the corpse is animated people would be consigned to the fugue, or perhaps a specific planar area to represent their soul and body being enthralled?

Time spent there, or the fugue, wouldn't likely be too long though. I don't imagine it would be much of a hinderance as the average zombie doesn't have much of a lifespan. I think the hard thing would be getting this system to work in tandem with the existing death/respawn/corpse system. What would happen to a dead, but animated character after a server reset, or after people log off?

Maybe let the player see what is happening to his characters defunct corpse would be interesting - a normal zombie is spawned, but the player character is given the cutscene invisibility effects, and follows the zombie, but the PC isnt visible to the player or anyone else. ( I'm thinking partly about the cutscenes of HotU where the pc is actually invisible). There is also a cutscene function which stops the player having any control over his PC - and the PC is set to immortal and on force follow with the zombie.

When the zombie dies/is destroyed etc, part of the death script is that the given player is returned to the fugue, the cutscene effects are removed and he is now able to do what a normal fugue character is able to do.

Just an idea.

Sounds like a great idea, Aekula. :) I wonder how difficult it would be to implement, though. If it's possible, I think it would be fun to watch your reanimated PC for a bit, especially with all the RP that would go along with it (the Necromancer ordering you along, your friends disgusted / thrilled at what became of you, the extra RP if you do come back to life).

Godspeed, Delron

If anything it lets the player have fun in seeing what his happening to his character as an undead.

Maybe a small room called Undead Room or something with a device that lets you look at your body in Aekulas way, and maybe something for Cleric/Paladins only where every five minutes you can see if your God frees you from Necromancy. Maybe random roll. Of course, if that's done the person would either have to go back to their body immedeatly (No exp loss so they're not forced to lose exp) or the Necromancer could just Animate them again. Both plans are flawed (the first being a cheap way for no exp loss, the second making it useless).

Unless you could make them unanimatable after they've been freed...

Well my concern with this is the role-playing aspect of things. If your body becomes reanimated - then what happens to the character? The Player Character isn't supposed to remember anything that happened in the Fugue, at least to my understanding, and from a role-play aspect of things your character wouldn't automatically assume that he/she would be allowed to return to life.

Would the character know he or she was animated as an undead creature for a time? More importantly, what happens if the PC logs off while their corpse is animated? What happens when the "Zombie Character" is killed? That's my major question. I am under the impression that you can't raise an undead creature back to life - at least not through the normal means of raise dead.

Also, what about scripting issues with the Zombie PC? Not every character that would be raised would be a fighter, what of Cleric Zombies, Wizard/Sorcerer Zombies or even Rogue and Monk Zombies? Would they have the correct scripts to function as Undead Henchmen?

There are also other issues involved such as the power level of a Necromancer. He'd essentially be able to carry on a quest even after his entire party was killed, with his party gaining the status effects of Undead.

I'm not trying to knock the idea, but there are a lot of different variables to consider. Such as if you can raise dead on a PC who died, why can't you use raise dead on Boggs to question him about what happened in the warehouse? (Role-playing consistency issues.) What happens to a Paladin who is raised as an Undead? What about a Cleric - do they keep their divine powers?

This is actually the reason I suggested allowing the player to take control over their undead body. It allows them to react and role-play the situation out, most would probably react in horror, but there may be some who prefer being Undead. Death as an Undead creature is also certain, because the PC wouldn't be able to be healed through normal means. Herbs might work, but anything that gives a spike heal wouldn't. There are also a host of spells in the game which specifically target Undead creatures, some of the most powerful killing them instantly, all of which the PC would be vulnerable to - in addition to being vulnerable to a Cleric and Paladin's turning ability. The only way to "cure" the Undead status would be to have Resurrection cast on you or your corpse, which costs 5k. That would lead to an interesting quest for the player, who would have been turned Undead against his/her will.

Magic_Salesman_Shadow where every five minutes you can see if your God frees you from Necromancy.

Meldread Well my concern with this is the role-playing aspect of things. If your body becomes reanimated - then what happens to the character? The Player Character isn't supposed to remember anything that happened in the Fugue, at least to my understanding, and from a role-play aspect of things your character wouldn't automatically assume that he/she would be allowed to return to life.

Animate Dead doesn't "bind the soul" of the character in any way. You're not "trapped" inside your reanimated corpse, and you certainly aren't "returned to life". What happens is that your corpse simply becomes an extension of the necromancer's will, like a puppet. I doubt you'd even know that your decaying body was being used in such a way, wherever your soul (that is, you) happened to be in afterlife. To better illustrate the case, I'd say it's perfectly possible to animate the body of someone whose soul has somehow been destroyed.

After all, the spell is called Animate Dead. Not "Raise Dead" or "Summon Soul To Corpse Then Animate It Against Its Will". An animated skeleton is just a pile of bones powered by negative energy that the necromancer makes do things by exerting his will.

For "anti-undead" talents/spells to be effective against animated PC they must have their racial type changed to RACIAL_TYPE_UNDEAD. Else the scripts involved won't identify the PC as being undead. Might be possible via polymorph or a custom flag (involving rewriting of spell scripts etc.), not sure though. It's a hell load of work which needs to go into such a system. So when it's done - give RD a mug of coffee a big hug and some hair dye to color all those grey strands :D

Ah, I see. I was thinking in terms of something similar to how a Lich works. It's soul is trapped within its phylactery, but it is still sentient and capable of freewill. (Mostly unless someone else controls the phylactery.) A vampire might be similar in that regard as well.

I was imagining an animated Player Character being something in-between a Zombie and a Vampire/Lich - wherein he'd basically have the status effects and powers (their benefits and drawbacks) of a Zombie, but the sentient nature of a Vampire/Lich.

Actually, I might have to take back some of what I said, since undead spellcasters (for instance) do exist. That would imply that animated dead do share some kind of a connection to the actual person, or as they were in life.

The metaphysical status of that connection is unclear, though. Clearly even the simplest undead should have some manner of sentience if they can "remember" how to cast spells or fight well. (Hence Skeleton Mages and Skeleton Warriors/Chieftains/etc.) But the sourcebooks make it quite clear that skeletons and zombies are mindless. Since they're powered by negative energy, I'm left to assume that it is precisely negative energy that grants them a sort of a quasi-sentience, even though they'd technically still be mindless.

To make that quasi-sentience resemble and gain some of the abilities and memories of the deceased creature, the negative energy would apparently have to "steal", "leech" or "copy" a part of the creature's soul. I'm still of the opinion that the actual soul isn't bound to the corpse in any way, though, since there is the mindless-requirement. But this would imply that the creature's soul knew something was "wrong", however.

Skeleton clerics remain a question mark since I cannot fathom how someone would be granted spells by a deity against their will, never mind if they had no will to speak of.

(Disclaimer: This is all just freely associative D&D metaphysics that is based on no official source. I'm only trying to make sense of the senselessly contradictory source material that the dolts in WotC have published.)

Another option is that it is in fact the necromancer who is linked to the creature's memories in some manner: upon casting Animate Dead, he would gain knowledge of how the creature in question cast arcane spells or fought well, for instance, and would then use that knowledge and the animating power of negative energy to make the undead perform such complicated tasks.

This would solve the mindlessness-problem but would create some others in return, such as why can't the necromancer use or keep that knowledge, himself, or how some necromancers are seemingly capable of commanding dozens or hundreds of mindless undead without some autonomous semblance of sentience "taking the reins" when the necromancer isn't directly controlling the creature. (Surely he can't divide his will to dozens or hundreds of fragments and then simultaneously command all those undead, all the while being free to coordinate his own actions as well!)

Some DM input on our blind speculation would be cool :D

this idea is nice, though, if a cropse being raised as undead, the soul is trapped, and wont come back. no chance for getting back, and its like parma death. this islike murder and therefore should be dealt as one. this solves the scripting.

later you could ask a dm to create/replace a zombie after you cast the spell.

Metaphysically speaking, the "trapped soul" option would be the best solution if we want to directly override what the sourcebooks say about the mindlessness of these undead. There wouldn't have to be any wild speculation about quasi-sentient negative energy.

But there's an even greater problem than simply overriding canon material, and that is the spell's power. A third level spell that can trap a soul from another plane for eternal torment (or 24 hours, whatever it is in EfU), and apparently allowing no chance of resisting the effect, is around the power level of an 8th or 9th level spell. Not a measly 3rd level Animate Dead. The reason you can't respawn when the spell is in effect is because you obviously can't inhabit a body that is being moved around by negative energy, not because you'd be trapped inside it.

in that case, your saying there is no real strong connection between soul and body. (jeez its getting philosophic here, heh), its like, you cant feel this glass of water with water, someone just putted there cofee powder.

To link my suggestion with what is now being said, the fact that the PC is invisible and follows the spawned in Zombie Character (ZC henceforth) could reflect the fact that the ZC has some form of awareness, but no will of its own to intervene ( hence the separation between ZC and PC)

Also - having the Player see what is happening is a way of letting him partake passively in the fun of what is happening to HIS character as an undead. It also avoids having to change the PC himself - no need for scripting race changes, weakness to turn undead, alignement changes, etc... you just get a regular undead from the palette who "embodies" the character's corpse. It also avoids the fact that if the Player logs, then this won't affect the ZC which should be independent of wherever or not the player is around.

Imagine that you choose to make the PC get alignement change, race change, appearance change etc, to become like a normal undead - and suddenly the player logs : the necromancer probably wouldn't be able to use the undead he summoned. Also, if the system is made as a way of permakilling characters - then the new way to avoid this would be to log once you fugue. Having a ZC which is different from the PC would mean that doing such would become impossible.

people, i've read some more threads, and, perhaps im being to general, for im using many sources else the WoTC.

in the "death gate" serie (of books) by margaret wise, and traysi hikman(excuse me for spell errors, i translate it from hebrew :P ) they were, in the third book, reanimating undead. it was some twisted try, as i recall, to revive (ressurect). reanimating do calls the soul.

i remember a form in which the soul was going in and out the body, in an eternal phase. the soul is trapped, to the body. and there IS self will to the creature.

when one reanimates a body, (in PnP, atleast), the body could not be ressurected back. the body gets corrupted, and the soul destroyed after killing the undead. perhaps there is a will check needed, when casting it on a PC corpse. like domination, only harder, as the soul will be trapped and commanded by the necro who did it.

liches do have will, btw, there are wizards who turn themselfs as to liches in order to protect places, items etc.

What i meant was that the Gods takes pity upon it's servant being used as a mindless puppet and stops it from being an Undead, making it a normal corpse.

In the Forgotten Realms all animation of the dead is EVIL.

If the soul was not harmed, then there isn't a lot of logical reason to assume that animating a piece of meat is evil.

I'd take the guess that even with a mindless undead, the soul is still incapable of being at peace in the afterlife.

Either the soul is trapped within the animated shell, unable to control its own body which is now enslaved to the will of the necromancer or the soul is unable to move past the Fugue state to the true afterlife promised by its diety.

I don't confuse the soul with the brain. A skeleton or zombie doesn't have a working brain, that doesn't mean a 'soul' isn't connected to it still. It may simply be that the soul is now trapped in a rotting, uncontrollable vessel struggling weakly against its imprisonment.

Its a big metaphysical querry here of course, but any option that people want to use is way open. The only canon aspect that is widely published is that animating the dead is evil; so there must be a reason.

1) Its taboo to treat a dead body with discourtesy or infuse it with negative energy.

2) The soul can never truly leave the Fugue while the corpse is ambling about.

3) The soul, whether the undead is mindless or not, is still trapped in the rotting corpse unable to influence its own body.

4) Negative energy is inherently evil to use -- except this doesn't work since that isn't the canon rule since Negative Energy Ray isn't an Evil spell.

Just like someone decided to re animate this topic, something evil must be at work here :twisted:

On a serious note though, perhaps this is something best left for the dm's to fiddle about with. Am sure they more or less have a general idea of what they want to include and not include.

alogen when one reanimates a body, (in PnP, atleast), the body could not be ressurected back. the body gets corrupted, and the soul destroyed after killing the undead. perhaps there is a will check needed, when casting it on a PC corpse. like domination, only harder, as the soul will be trapped and commanded by the necro who did it.

liches do have will, btw, there are wizards who turn themselfs as to liches in order to protect places, items etc.

Furthermore, a character can only be brought back to life if the soul is willing. I sincerely doubt you're going to find many souls willing to return as a mindless servant, and so it would be foolish to think anything other than that the soul is indeed not trapped inside the body if animated (making it more in tune with Animate Dead being a 3rd level spell).

Finally, liches can in no way be compared to animated dead, save from the fact that both are undead, simply because liches aren't animated. One can also not make liches, as the process of becoming a lich can only be undertaken by a willing character (mind you, at least one character has been made a lich against his will, but let's consider him the exception that proves the rule).

Oroborous I don't confuse the soul with the brain. A skeleton or zombie doesn't have a working brain, that doesn't mean a 'soul' isn't connected to it still. It may simply be that the soul is now trapped in a rotting, uncontrollable vessel struggling weakly against its imprisonment.

Oroborous 4) Negative energy is inherently evil to use -- except this doesn't work since that isn't the canon rule since Negative Energy Ray isn't an Evil spell.

There may of course be canon spells that manipulate negative energy but don't have the evil descriptor. If you can find me one, post it here so I'll know. Otherwise I'm of the opinion that manipulation of negative energy is, in fact, evil.

Have you dissected a vampire or a lich? How do you know their brains aren't functional? Although, in the case of a lich it is known that their brains do slowly decompose which is why liches eventually go insane or evolve into demiliches. Vampires have functional hearts, and likely functional brains; especially since they don't rot but are preserved as they were shortly after death. I've actually looked this stuff up in fantasy and occult lore although of course you can find a source book to say anything. Its rather a non-issue; I was just making the point that its easy enough to explain how something can be undead, still have a soul trapped within it, but remain mindless. To demonstrate there are explanations.

As for negative energy, the spells you cited are canon spells from a source book other than Player's Handbook. They're in Tome of Blood, and probably reprinted for 3.5 in Complete Wizard or something similar somewhere. Neither have the Evil descriptor. Same applies for Dread Blast on page 186 of Lords of Darkness.

Book of Vile Darkness page 85 reminds us, Spells are only Evil IF:

1) The cause undue suffering or negative emotions.

2) They call upon evil gods or goddesses (which is what all spells in the Evil Domain do, which is why Bioware is not contradicting anything; the power isn't evil, the source granting it is).

3) They create, summon, or improve undead or other evil beings.

4) They harm souls.

5) They involve unsavory practices such as cannibalism or drug use.

Now animating undead according to this book is evil, primarily for "creating a mockery of life" which supports Anthee and additionally bringing "negative energy" into the Material world which makes it "darker" and "evil" but at no point is negative energy defined as clearly evil but rather as something that is used to bring darkness and evil into the world. Rather like a gun can be used to protect the innocent but most often is used to kill is how I choose to interpret this especially based on the five requirements of an evil spell.

Not even Libre Mortis explains why some undead are mindless or others aren't, or why liches can think when zombies can't. What it suggests in a dialogue on negative energy is that 'such energy is often used by evil' but itself it is merely a 'drain, greedy and hungry' for other forms of energy which it absorbs. While negative energy seems to 'fuel' most undead, those better at protecting themselves from its influences tend to show greater sentience.

i would consider murder as an evil act, even if it is for good. for example, in israel one assasinated our presidant. its obviously an evil act, though the person beleive he did good (i dont put my believes here, though) same with negetive energy, i tihnk. one can use it for good purposes, though it is evil to use that rather then other spells. the spell is the murder. it could be done by other ways, yes (political ways) like magic missile, or frost ray. the purpose might be good at the eyes of the beholder (dont play the, what's the beholder has to do with it? its rays? :P ) yet, it leads to the dark path. i think, alteast :D

Sorry I read this a bit late...It's a very interesting read, so I decided to cast "Donds dead post necromancy on it"...

Oroborous had some very insightful and well thought out responses here, which I would like to add to a bit. Regardless of where the soul goes/ gets trapped/ or other it is really the body we need be concerned with.

In order to return to life, in all spell instances detailed below, the character must be willing to return. Raise dead -can not- be used to return a character to life. Ressurection can be used to bring you back, provided one thing is capable of being produced: So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death (from the SRD). Lastly, if all else fails, and you can find a cleric capable of casting it, true ressurection is an option as well. Often the cost of a TR is what is prohibitive for most.

So, as we can see, regardless of what torturous pit of fire your sould burns in, there is still hope!

Sorry..that was me posting above. Forgot to log in :oops:

Actually Snoteye one can be forced into lichdom. There are a few artifacts that do such in the realms as well as if you are in possesion of the lich's soul keeping device you can fall under it's spell and be transformed into a lich yourself and you share bodies.

On a side note, I really think this spells needs work. So many possibilities for the Underdark. Go Thrawn, go!

This is presently on Arkov's gigantinormomungous "To Do" list.

Patience, I'm frequently told, is a virtue.

9lives This is presently on Arkov's gigantinormomungous "To Do" list.

Patience, I'm frequently told, is a virtue.

How would planned modifications to Animate Dead affect Pale Masters? I am pretty sure that their 'Animate Dead' feat does not allow the caster to select a target. Will this disadvantage the class when the changes come out?

Well palemaster is a prestige, and though it's not impossible to have , you'd need a pretty good application to be one. Also be a player with a proven track record in playing these sort of things right.

So I dont think it's going to make much of a difference unless we suddenly see a prelude with X palemasters that suddenly hit the city :) Not many preludes would accept starting level 6 characters anyway :D let along prestiges at starting point.

From what i've seen as soon as you achieve a prestige, you'll get permakilled in a d.m event ;)

It's no coincidence that you only see a few characters beyond 7-8, it's hard to stay alive that long. Character wise the longer you are around the more DEATH dice you're throwing. eventually it happens. The way D&D works too the higher level you get the more chance of SUDDEN DEATH. This is because of saves against extremely powerful spells (long paralysis, stoning, instant death etc) that will take you out. Having a fixed -10 death limit is the other reason, often you'll get hit for a LOT of damage in one lump taking you easily from positive hitpoints to less than -10. This is how the rules work, and only a d.m can save you from the rules (and they may not wish to). Another reason you dont see many characters beyond 7-8 is that theres much less scripted stuff up there , you need to get a group of characters the same range as you, (harder and harder the higher you go) Because theres less scripted stuff you end up playing the character during d.m times to get interaction so the only times you're likely in combat is in a d.m quest, where permadeath is more possible (and acceptable)

I think he was merely presenting a possible issue to the scripts that Arkov is implementing. Though not widespread in the least, it could still prove to be a problem.

alogen the purpose might be good at the eyes of the beholder (dont play the, what's the beholder has to do with it? its rays? :P )