Anonymous If its IC for him/her to do it, despite the tiger eyes/watch being present why should he/she have to act in a way that is enormously out of character? I always try to give the heads up to a dm, and to all of your credit, most of the time someone shows up as a tiger/watch and tosses him back into upper.

I'd be happy to except that any shit started in front of NPC's would equal a lose and would actually prefer the IC punishments to having to play my character so wildly differently.

Does anybody else feel this way?

I guess I understand what the guy is saying. Supposedly, his PC would have done whatever he did whether the NPCs were there or not, and taken the IC consequences for it on board. But, since no DM could get there at that time, he did it anyway, because it was IC for him to do so.

The problem with this is that he's making an assumption on what the NPCs who saw it would do. Thats something only the DMs can make a certainty. Additionally, it creates OOC conflict or dissatisfaction on the part of the target of the PvP, who knows that the guidelines/rules have been broken.

So I guess his problem was that if he didn't do what he did because no DMs could possess the NPCs, it would leave a bitter OOC taste in his mouth, and maybe wrongfully portray his character to other PCs around.

The answer to that is just to bite the bullet and refrain from the PvP if no DM is present. DMs arent always available. Thats a fact which no server can refute. As it is, I think the DM coverage on EfU is second to none. But it has its limits. You just need to work within them.

If someone is mocking your hardass thug, and you call on DMs to oversee the PvP and none are available, then you refrain from it. Make something up (like 'Your lucky theres another guy I want to kill before you, I'll see you afterward but' etc.), insult him, ignore him...theres alot of options. Whatever one you take, it CAN'T be worse than the effects of initiating PvP in front of non-DM possesed NPCs.

And this also means that the "insulting" party should not abuse DM's abscence, and doing it knowing that the target can't strike back before the eyes of the NPC, as DM is not present.

I know it is pretty obvious, just thought worth to mention the other side of the coin as well.

That note was from me. I understand the arguements behind it, just wanted to plead my case a bit.

In the particular case that probably brought all of this up, things were made especially difficult because of circumstance. As a member of law enforcement, resisting arrest leaves me with few choices but force. Additionally, a violent beating is often considered, by my character, adequete punishment that no longer constitues the need for a fine and jail time. However, there is also a larger issue to contend with.

Lockwood is not a nice guy, and PC's, NPC's and DM's alike watch him beat on people all time. This -has- effected the reputation of the watch, as well as his standing in it (having faced a number of formal inquires for his behavior and dealt with punishments handed out by his superiors, including a rather tastey one coming up).

I guess my point is that Rodney King like beatings happen all the time and the dudes holding the cameras (NPC's) usually don't interfere until afterwards, when they change public opinion, leading to outcry, demands for justice, and sometimes riots, all of which are, in my mind, fun for the server on a whole.

Let me make it clear though, that I agree with the DM's decision on this, as I understand the difficulties dealing with these kinds of issues. I don't want to create any OOC tension, so I'll make certain to try to avoid these kinds of things in the future.

For people that are in the law organizations, when things begin to escalate where there are no DM's around, what should we do?

I'll put this simply, I hate it when people initiate PVP with not dms around, alot of RP fights would be intterupted and even stopped by NPCs should they get a chance to.

I do have way to deal with this though, I will not deal subduel damage to anyone who does this to me without a dm present, after all, whats to stop me killing them if no NPC will stop me, and reporting it to watch or tigereyes won't do any good as self-defence is not a crime. This way, anyone who decides to break the rules and attack anyway will find that their characters have a short life expectency.

And if anyone feeds me the "i was trying to get a dm but none responded" line, I'll still do it, you should get the dm BEFORE you even intiate the rp that initiates PVP

Didn't mean for this to sound like a one-man tirade against any particular incident, the only reason i mention this is the full-scale riots which i've been dragged ingame to deal with lately. Makes me the jaded, bitter, cynical DM that i am.

Well, let's put it like this.

I've seen PCs start stupid things in front of NPCs. This comes from regular PCs to PCs playing guards. While some guards may torture a PC, I'm pretty sure that not all guards will idly watch in the hallway as it happens in front of a door.

What it comes down to is a certain level of OOC cooperation. If you plan to start shit in front of an NPC work it out with the other player so there aren't hard feelings. Just like with everything else.

I've fought in front of guards with another player, we both agreed a few hits would get exchanged and that the instigator would then run away "before the guard could notice".

I had one instance on another server where I started fights in front of the guards, and then attacked the NPC guard so he'd come after me. If I escaped great, if he killed me being an NPC--oh well guess the arrest was a little rough.

The point though is to have fun and play your character. If it takes a little OOC discussion with someone great, and that is preferable to me than having to wait for a DM or a faction PC to show up so I can hit someone or be hit by them.

On the other hand, you should realize a 30 minute running battle through the main streets isn't happening. A couple people scuffling a short distance from an NPC will happen, and then both may run off. A guard may punch an inmate three or four times in the head with a sap, but he won't spend twenty minutes breaking his fingers with three NPC guards watching on doing nothing.

Eventually it turns into a "now kids, if you can't PvP nicely, you can only do it when mommy is watching." I'd like to think our server is mature enough we can work out how to play while it happens and not always have to wait for a DM to oversee it.

I've fought in front of guards with another player, we both agreed a few hits would get exchanged and that the instigator would then run away "before the guard could notice".

I disagree, Oro. From what I gathered, small-time PvP in front of NPCs is fine with no DM-possession?

I may of misread, but if I didn't, if you or anyone were to ask me OOC to have some PvP infront of non-possessed NPCs anyway, I'd definetely say 'No.'

Eventually it turns into a "now kids, if you can't PvP nicely, you can only do it when mommy is watching." I'd like to think our server is mature enough we can work out how to play while it happens and not always have to wait for a DM to oversee it.

I don't understand. The entire premise of making sure DMs oversee PvP in front of NPCs is so that they can ensure the NPCs act accordingly. And only a DM can say how an NPC might act at any time.

Working out to PvP in front of non-possessed NPCs, if even for a short while, isn't maturity. The rules have been set in place, they are -very- clear, and they are there for a reason. If everyone (most already do) follow these rules, everything will be fine!

Seriously, who cares if its the perfect opportunity to enact on the PvP against someone you've been planning? If there is no DM, don't do it. I've put off planty of things like that, living in the Australian timezone, but its just so simple. Don't PvP, at all, unless there are DMs KNOWN to be watching. A single tell to the DM channel a few minutes or seconds before you lash out just doesn't cut it. You need a -response-.

I would even propose taking a few more npc guards out of the joint *for good* or even perhaps when there are more pc guards, that way this cant be a major problem and if a guard would see it would most likely be a pc guard, im not saying take all the npc guards out just some I am sure the PCs would not mind patrolling a little more/further it is their job afterall.

I think it is really pointed towards guards, if you were in lower and some citizens were around and you say attack a watchman thats down there they most likely would not do much on the contray most likely throw rocks at the watchman/cheer for the attacker.

hrm. I think MGS is favouring the behaviour of a certain new character he has.

The main issue here is ONLY THE DMS can judge how NPCs will react. Not all Lower residents would hate the watch, just like not all people below the poverty line think the police are pigs.

My issue is that we're here to play. If everyone who is present is okay with how something works out--I can't see a problem. I'm not saying 'PvP in front of Adelia' but 'pvp not far from random guard x' who's reaction can be anything at all. As long as the players are all fine with it, no DM can be reached, why not?

Its not a case of "Random Guard G would have done XXX" because he is random guard. He could have run away, interfered, arrested you both, whatever.

What MadCaddies says fits for him. I've always been happy if someone says "A guard is not within immediate sight of us, do you mind if my character attacks yours and then runs away?" I usually say "Sure, go for it." Its about being mature enough to not always need a DM to referee when one isn't absolutely necessary. Now if he said "My character wants to try to assassinate you in front of Tyrell but no DM is on is that okay?" then I'd probably have to say "no because we really need a DM for that". I personally would even wait for one or see if one is in IRC to run the scene.

I also tend to be a lot more open to PvP, and more willing to work with other people to tell a story. DMs want to see PvP as I understand it to 1) make sure NPCs react accordingly and 2) so players aren't angry about how it goes.

In my experience, players are always angry about how PvP goes when they're not talked to OOC about how it'll go. Its nice to have the DM there to keep the peace and mediate if you can't work it out with the other player.

If, in a given PVP event, both players are content OOC with how it went...I would imagine it very unlikely that the DMs will object. We're just here to make sure that everybody plays fair.

-Cross (And to make rhyming ogre dance lines.)