I mentioned this in IRC and someone said I should mention it on the boards so here we go.

When I first played EFU in the Alpha, it felt very survivalistic. You had shit for equipment, the people were more desperate and people were scared shitless walking out into the Underdark.

Now I feel that everyone has become a little too comfortable in the dreaded Underdark. Though this is where I kind of feel guilty suggesting this because I don't know how to make a more survivalistic feel. EFU still has it, but it's -very, very weak- compared to what I remember way back when.

I do think that the Underdark spawns are fine, they're very tough for low levels, tough enough for middle and still pretty tough for the high guys.

So yes, I'm just addressing this. If anybody has an idea as to how to make the server have that more survivalistic feeling, shout it out, because that survivalistic feeling was badass.

Well, you can't have the survivalist feel at the same time as everything is being done to make new players feel as cozy and comfortable as possible.

Since the DMs have apparently decided for the latter, I don't think much can be done in favor of this suggestion without some agenda conflicts. Indeed, I don't know how many players even think that something should be done.

I'd be in favor of making the Underdark a wee bit tougher place than it is now, too, but I have a feeling we're in the minority here.

Maybe the increased confidence is a product of having come to terms with the harsh and unforgiving environment? Learning from it, working within its confines to gain an increase in power? Its logical that the survivalist aspect of the atmosphere will eventually decrease as people master, slowly, their environment.

But, I think there is -heaps- of the survival-mentality in EfU still. Murder and intrigue are rife, no one is ever at any time absolutely safe. Drow threaten to invade, still might. Beset on all sides by powerful enemies, including illithid and beholders, as well as the customary goblins and kobolds. People -know- they are ****ed if they make even small mistakes, and thats good.

I don't think there needs to be any amendments to increase the survivalist atmosphere. Its still going strong.

MadCaddies Maybe the increased confidence is a product of having come to terms with the harsh and unforgiving environment? Learning from it, working within its confines to gain an increase in power? Its logical that the survivalist aspect of the atmosphere will eventually decrease as people master, slowly, their environment.

This is true, which is why I pretty much think nothing can be done to increase it significantly, but hey.

There are still plenty of areas that are terrifying, if you're in the mood for survival horror. The difference is now you more or less have to seek it out, rather than it being everywhere - which I'm in favor of entirely. Oh.. I have a feeling that nostalgia is taking over a bit, as it wasn't really all that fun to be limited to the very little amount of content that there was around to do in Alpha, which is really what was creating the shortage of gold and supplies available that made things feel so desperate. Though-I'm all for more scary-make-me-shit-myself areas being put into the module!

It occurred to me that if you really want life to be tough, maybe you should apply for a drow/orc/goblin/kobold :)

You can get killed any time and no one will give a shit!

If I may add my experience: I am playing since a few months on EfU, and so far I was scared like hell from go into the wilderness, didn't even risked a walk to Fort Mur. Admittably the character is not a mighty warrior or mage, but the feel of the Underdark wilderness should not to be taken lightly is still there, at least for me.

So Najara remains a city girl mostly. :)

I am still scared to go out to the Underdark. :wink: And my characters still don't have loads of money, or equipment either.

I guess it is how you play the game, as well. If EfU would be more survivalistic for me, I think that might be a bit too much even.

yeah I think there is certainly an element of ooc-ly getting to know the server really well etc. that causes a drop in the fear factor. Even when you start a new character, you retain that ooc knowledge.

BUT there is also a distinct lack of people willing to do the more dangerous tasks. Which perhaps is actually evidence of that fear. Otherwise people would be wandering out and doing the fort mur quests etc willy nilly.

And having recently survived Nuclear Catastrophe's bodaks... I can say the DMs do a pretty fine job of making that sense of borderline existence pretty clear to those players who happen upon such danger.

I must really say I think only those feel safe that do not go outside much or not too far.. Have you ever taken a look around there? Wow. I've seen a whole lot of zones, and there's things that are extremely scary. Also I notice some zones get changed around to make travel there more dangerous or, without a well equipped group even impossible.

But on the other hand I am grateful that Sanctuary's adjacent areas are not crammed with 60-damage-crit-hit true seeing with haste potions monsters so that a new player who is just fresh from the HotU campaign has a chance to realize her mistake and flee.

What I'm trying to say is, I really think it's as fine as it is. I haven't played here since the alpha but I was there in a rather early beta and I know how it used to be, but that was a little different since the whole server tended to be in the same party and the same spot and had almost constant DM attention, so they could subtly influence the chances of survival. Not sure if it's happened or not, we have done some silly stuff :)

I would just like to pipe in and say, as a new player, that the first thing Inoticed was how I felt the survival instinct kick in. It was very tense at first, and there is still that cloud of doubt that hovers over me endlessly.

So, in terms of a low level character newbie, I feel plenty afraid, lol!

I am very scared of the under dark. I went to Mur for the first time yesterday, ever.

The difference between then and now and the survival feel is that now I can metagame where everything is and all the supposed "mysteries" that were left to be discovered during Beta.

Sounds like the newer players especially still have it. As already mentioned, for me its probably because my previous character knew the Underdark in and out since he scouted the area alone often, so OOCly I'm more comfortable, even if my character is scared shitless anyways. But hey it's not making EFU less fun. I'm very happy with where I'm at now. :)

I'm glad the way between Sanctuary and pretty much anywhere else isn't always a cakewalk.

If memory serves, "Underdark Guide" is actually a prestige class in D&D.

To everyone too nervous to send their character bouncing out to Fort Mur wearing nothing but a set of leathers, an invisibility spell and a smile, I ask:

What would be wrong with strolling into your watering hole of choice and hiring a guide to take you to Fort Mur? Such an act smacks of the gritty "reality" of surviving in the Underdark. During the recent *spoiler* encursion, most guide-types were able to spot the *spoilers* from a safe distance, take a head count and proceed from there.

Don't want a rogue? There are some pretty amazing rangers and druids around. The choices are hardly limited.

I mean, cripes. There are quests well beyond Sanctuary, way out in the Underdark. The only trick is, you gotta have a party to do them.

:shock:

Whoopsie doodle.

That was me.

Carry on!

I think the feeling is comming back with much of what recenty has been done ingame. The gate still being down, only barrels up as a sort of half @$$ed baracade, the city being half beat up by goblins...I think that that presents some great survivalistic feel to the module recently.

MadCaddies Maybe the increased confidence is a product of having come to terms with the harsh and unforgiving environment? Learning from it, working within its confines to gain an increase in power?

Nah, it's obviously too much loot.

Well, i'm still pretty scared of the Underdark when playing anything but a rogue. As a rogue, i feel invincible though. I've snuck past Formians, Beholders, Ilithid, Umberhulks, Draghazars, Drow, Driders, and most other things. Not sure what this contributes, but hey, just saying what i think.

Still, it makes me now what trouble i could be into if i didn't have such a devilishly high h/ms :wink:

Mixture of an absurd amount of loot and (in the most benign sense) metagaming.

If the loot level was dropped and the Underdark areas changed frequently and radically, you'd all be pooping yourselves still! I think that's just too much of an ask though, not to mention pretty unrealistic and problematic!

I'm not sure there is a practical solution to this problem.

yes the metagaming aspect is almost unintentional. The first time you play EfU, most people send their characters off to do Boggs or catch rats for Gobbler alone as a lvl 2. Most of these characters will die.

However its unlikely many people do this on their 2nd or 3rd characters, because of the OOC knowledge that rats and very slow zombies are actually hard on your own.

I think it is possible to "live on the edge" so to speak in EfU. Going out to Fort Mur, doing Orogs, doing Hooks without buffs (O.o), or whatever. But you need to have a character concept that suits this behaviour. I for one, have a character who really enjoys the comforts of the cushions at the Rock, and prefers to send someone else through the abandoned mines in front of her... and she's lvl 6! But the way I play her means I feel relatively safe most of the time.

Nagypapi If I may add my experience: I am playing since a few months on EfU, and so far I was scared like hell from go into the wilderness, didn't even risked a walk to Fort Mur. Admittably the character is not a mighty warrior or mage, but the feel of the Underdark wilderness should not to be taken lightly is still there, at least for me.

So Najara remains a city girl mostly. :)

I'm not really afraid of the underdark, just takes a bit of haste, and you can get past almost any obsticle and critter, because by the time you get to where you're going, the guard npc'll kill whats tailing you.

So yeah, I'm not afraid to cop a feel of the wilderness.

so you 'run' 20km ;) with an armor i imagine and equipment. I assume you have the 39 of constitution to match that ;)

Jazzy Be

I'm not really afraid of the underdark, just takes a bit of haste, and you can get past almost any obsticle and critter, because by the time you get to where you're going, the guard npc'll kill whats tailing you.

So yeah, I'm not afraid to cop a feel of the wilderness.

Just note that guards will often kill people who lead monsters to civilized places too. This is really a bad way to do things.

(ignore this)

Get a DM to teleport you to a vulcano and leave you there to walk your way back. :P

Oroborous Get a DM to teleport you to a vulcano and leave you there to walk your way back. :P

Sounds hot!

maybe if there was athreat on Sanctuary it would bring a feeling of "omg if i go out there im screwed". We already have monsters that can see invisability so maybe uber drow scouting groups that u cant detect untill they r right next to you :twisted:

... That already happened. There was a threat about being slaughtered by Drow at every turn (unless you tab spammed). Really gave the server a nice feel, sad that my char wasn't the sort to go outside. But hey, it's happened.

I don't know why people keep saying that the server doesn't have a survivalist feel. Maybe it's because a lot of you have been around for a long time, but for me, who first started playing on August 20th, 2006 the server is pretty "survivalist" to me. I'm scared as crap when I go out into the Underdark. I RARELY leave the surrounding areas around Sanctuary, but if I do - you can bet I'm leaving with as many damn people as I can find.

My biggest fear in the Underdark is not so much of what I run into, it's the fear of not being able to find my way back! Of getting lost and THEN running into something. Some of the people who designed some of these areas have a twisted sense of humor, but got the feel of the Underdark just right. I can travel in one direction, pretty confident that I'm heading the right way, only to suddenly realize that I'm lost... and what is more not remember how to get back where I had just come from. The minimap, aside from a few locations, is total crap.

I loathe leaving the safety of Sanctuary. I loathe straying far from the city with people I don't know.

I can only assume that people think the server has "lost" it's survivalist feel because they already OOCly know what to expect. They know their way around. They know what spawns where. They know where the traps are, and if their character is old enough - they probably have some pretty good stuff too.

From my prospective EfU is just about right. The Underdark is dangerous enough where you FEAR it, and that you are constantly wondering what is going to happen, but not so dangerous that no one is ever willing to leave to explore it. After all, half the fun is exploring what is out there.

And really, I think if serious uber mobs were added to the game (Aren't the Deep Lizards bad enough!?) people would complain if there was no hope of survival. The fun is when you are put up against a challenge, and struggle to pull through - the fun is in being successful not in failing. That's the difference between "survivalist" and "suicidal".

Maybe it's just me, but I think it is probably the feeling of most people who are relatively new to the server.

Most people fear the unkown or unexpected. The more you get to know the server, the more you know where each danger spot is, where each enemy will spawn, where each safe area to run to, etc... the more the survivalist feel will where off. I completely agree with what was said before: ooc knowledge of the server impacts your experience.

Unfortrunately this is one of the major draw backs of NWN PWs (or any game). As soon as you've explored every little nook and cranny of the world it becomes somewhat less appealing.

I was thinking of an idea, which lurks in my head for quite a time...

why not having several maps for the same quest? (example: trog cave, have several caves, and when taking the quest, the party will randomly get one of them, this gives you the opportunity to set things "random" up to kind of monster on quest :D )

oh i like that idea...

The unknown is what makes a great part of the adventure, and this could make some of the more used adventure maps verry exiting.

but what about in-building quests, if 2 ppl who have both been in the same building at different times discribe a different builind im likely to scream.

I said, 1 party = 1 area.... means, the moment you take the quest... not something like beetle quest (which, most likely, be the same shape, atleast every reset... :D )

comming to think about it, it could be changed per reset... but the dms are the ones to decide

I didn't feel like reading this whole thread, but my input on the subject is that I totally agree with the author. Things were way more awesome with chills running down your spine everytime you did something back in the time. I don't know if it has anything to do with me losing the fear of IC death, or the fact that there's more magic stuff around, and that the monsters have gotten soft. :P

Anyways, I must say I really liked the very low presence of magical stuff in the past.

I'm not going to bother quoting parts of the original post for this thread, it's up there by _Nightfire_, and I'm replying to it. I'm newly back to EfU after some summer work; thinking it would be awkward to bring an old character on after my several months of absence, I wrote up a new human to play! He was eaten, rather abruptly, by some roaming terrors in an undisclosed location within lower sanctuary tonight *grumbles*. Not sure what you're smoking, but the survivalist feel for EfU is still strong for me, like it was when I joined awhile back. Turning to despair slightly though, due to all of the random character death heh heh. Only builds I've seen that have problems dieing are the Cleric, and Druid of mine -- both of which, mind you, are fairly powerful in the D&D ruleset *grins*. After being backstabbed in town over an insult.. jumped by drow in the sewers, and followed into a building by assassins.. well, the game keeps my attention heh. Mind you, I enjoy EfU, if it wasn't clear. Having a hard time resisting the urge to power-build though, so a character of mine lives long enough to make some ties in Sanctuary.

kassan_rift: If it helps any, I might suggest trying to make ties in the city before you go to dangerous places by yourself at low levels, because then you're just looking for trouble.

It's true, EfU is extremely difficult to survive with most classes, but it is absolutely possible to do so.

Ultimately, the key is to keep trying, and, I guess, respawning, when it comes down to it. Don't let a well-thought out concept be ended before its time because you're still new to the server.

And praise Talona. *noddles*

Sounds like most of the people summed it up. When a player metagames, even unknowingly, quests he tried or places he's been to - it's less difficult and lacks the survival feel. The only thing that disables this is DM events and player-involved quests.

Plus, Sanctuary is basically a huge, fortified, adventurer-field city. Even with certain happenings making it smaller, it still doesn't feel unsafe. It's like living in a dwarven fort. If you leave it, you do have monsters and problems - sometimes - but you can easily avoid most of them. It is difficult to find monsters or NPCs that aren't controlled by DMs that have See Invisibility, high spot/listen checks and so on.

It doesn't feel like Underdark, exactly. All just leave you alone for the most part. Evil doesn't feel evil.

Part of the issue, I think players have the belief that Sanctuary can't be destroyed. Even as weak as the city is right now, few really understand that any real concerted effort could wipe out the city.

I agree here with Oro, a goblin fart could wipe out the city right now. The amount of teetering on the edge of destruction that Sanctuary does amounts to perpetual, and I don't think a lot of players have a feel of that.

I agree with Oroborous and The Beggar. I do not think MOST people, dare I say - the MAJORITY of the people, really have the feeling of eminent destruction. They take the city for granted because OOCly, they feel that the city will always be there, it will always be safe and it will always be protected. That something will ultimately repel any threat launched against the city.

People seem to still have this same rationality even after the fall of Lower Sanctuary.

I even admit I am guilty of this, and it comes through in my role-playing. Sanctuary just feels like a place that is "safe". That while you are within its walls - there are dangers yes, but ultimately at the end of the day you are "safe". If there is one place where the survivability feeling is lacking it would be here.