1). Anyone can go through the transition right now, probably will want to change that.

2). No journal entry when you take the quest.

3). Bloated Sac Spiders have no nourishing bellies, but they are supposedly breed for food. They should either give a belly or have the description changed. Considering the danger they pose honestly, they should have an extra big belly that Fears pays double for.

4). Bloated Sac Spiders supposedly slowly crawl along leaving a trail of ooze. So why can they nearly outrun a barbarian? I'd again adjust the speed or the description.

5). Allow a chance to persuade/intim/bluff Fears into paying double for the sacs. 2 gold is pretty cheap since you get 55 for delivering a pie and a single beetle can kill you. Perhaps 4 gold, with double if you win a per/int/blu roll.

6). Perhaps some ambient "beetle gland" loot? Like "Fire Beetle Gland: Sprays Burning Hands one use", "Acid Gland: Sprays Acid Burst", "Egg Sac; Summons a small beetle to aid you.", "Silk Gland: fires a web bolt".

seconded.

too much danger, not enough reward for a low level character.

Oroborous 1). Anyone can go through the transition right now, probably will want to change that.

Oroborous 2). No journal entry when you take the quest.

Oroborous 5). Allow a chance to persuade/intim/bluff Fears into paying double for the sacs. 2 gold is pretty cheap since you get 55 for delivering a pie and a single beetle can kill you. Perhaps 4 gold, with double if you win a per/int/blu roll.

Oroborous 6). Perhaps some ambient "beetle gland" loot? Like "Fire Beetle Gland: Sprays Burning Hands one use", "Acid Gland: Sprays Acid Burst", "Egg Sac; Summons a small beetle to aid you.", "Silk Gland: fires a web bolt".

--

Just my take on matters.

Coldburn

Oroborous 1). Anyone can go through the transition right now, probably will want to change that.

It's like Gobblers 'Collect-Rat-Meat' Quest. Anyone can go into the sewers to get it.

Oroborous 2). No journal entry when you take the quest.

Coldburn No update is needed, since like Gobbler's Rat Meat and Hans' Rothe Meat, it's a collect, deliver and payment quest.

Oroborous 5). Allow a chance to persuade/intim/bluff Fears into paying double for the sacs. 2 gold is pretty cheap since you get 55 for delivering a pie and a single beetle can kill you. Perhaps 4 gold, with double if you win a per/int/blu roll.

Coldburn Not in favour off. Her low payment gets compensated with 8 xp per belly. It evens out Gobbler's reward, which is 4/4.

Oroborous 6). Perhaps some ambient "beetle gland" loot? Like "Fire Beetle Gland: Sprays Burning Hands one use", "Acid Gland: Sprays Acid Burst", "Egg Sac; Summons a small beetle to aid you.", "Silk Gland: fires a web bolt".

Coldburn Already is available. Rare Glands are Remove Disease (single use), and more common glands are Cure Light Wounds (single use).

I wouldn't mind seeing more type of beetle glands. Since some of the beetles can use Acid Splash (or Monster Ability "Acid Bolt"?) perhaps an "Acid Gland" could be a drop. The spiders spawn less than the beetles, and are a slightly greater challenge, and could perhaps have a spider-summoning "Egg Sac" as a rare drop. Because these creatures are capable of using their own glands, the chance of recovering them is lower and the risk while fighting them higher, as well.

As for higher-level characters entering the caves, as long as there is an IC reason for accompanying new characters (introduction to Sanctuary, "Your First Job", "Wizards need to learn how to fight, too!") then I think this would be acceptable, especially if there's an agreement that the higher level character gets a majority, or all, of the glands for research, or a little bit of the pay.

Fears could also encourage characters to travel with others (not necessarily experienced adventurers) through the beetle caves for safety, as well, to avoid beetle-related deaths.

Eh, come to think of it, the gland could even have something like "Acid flask, single use" as far as I know. I know you can add those grenade like weapon proerties to items. Maybe that'd be something?

I am in favor of a Higher Level character ebing able to go through and help a lower level character - this quest and the rat quest are the only two where that can happen.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to limit what is dropped based on the level of the character killing the rat or beetle.

nestek I am in favor of a Higher Level character ebing able to go through and help a lower level character - this quest and the rat quest are the only two where that can happen.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to limit what is dropped based on the level of the character killing the rat or beetle.

Because a level 8 can easily level a buddy up to level 3 or 4 using this as an exploit. Which I'm sure happens and strikes me as rather unsporting.

First time i did the quest, that happened. A lvl 7 showed me it, simply killed everything, i got massive gp and exp for nothing.

Oroborous Which is a problem with Gobbler I've pointed out in the past too. A level 8 can go through and kill every bug, then allow a level 2 friend to go collect the bellies. Both need to be fixed. When high level PCs kill a rat, it shouldn't drop meat. An OnDeath script could fix that. As it is, there are things in the sewers everyone no matter what level will want to explore and see; I'm not sure if that applies to the Fears quest, maybe it does in which case--great but it still won't prevent people killing bugs for their friends to get free xp/gold.

I fail to see how this is a serious balance issue - getting a little help from your high level buddy can actually prove disadvantageous to you in the long run.

First off, the powerlevelling new PC will be short on cash and have substandard gear when passes L4 and there's no more high-paying fedex quests to be had. Heading into a gobbo frotress attack and wearing chainmail isn't a lot of fun for the powerlevelled character. And a mage that has gone to town levelling quickly will have a very thin spellbook to support the party with. Very few classes actually benefit from what you are suggesting - perhaps low-gear classes like sorcerers or bards. But with the number of them on the server, and their relative power in relation to other classes - I think it's a trivial balance issue.

Second, the char being powerlevelled will be lacking in contacts and questing partners. All the time he's spending chopping bits out of bugs and rats will mean less time RP'ing with his peers. So he will have less contacts than someone else who actually makes an attempt to socialize with those on his own level.

Third, it has its risks for the L8 to be in the sewers killing rats for his low level buddy. Any L8 has a list of personal enemies out to give him a weight-loss treatment (loss depending on the weight of the individual's head). Going into the sewers or beetle caves with a L2 for support isn't something to be taken all that lightly. Have you taken this into account? Hey, I see that holier than thou paladin wandering around the sewers with some L2, I'm getting my buddies! What more could an up and coming mugger ask for?

I see it as a minor balance issue which could be seen as slightly imbalancing either way. Boost the payment or lower it - who cares? There are many other issues for the DMs to contend with. It's a trivial point that should be added to the list of things to do - somewhere mixed in with the grammar mistakes in books and the odd spelling mistake in item descriptions.

Oroborous 6). Perhaps some ambient "beetle gland" loot? Like "Fire Beetle Gland: Sprays Burning Hands one use", "Acid Gland: Sprays Acid Burst", "Egg Sac; Summons a small beetle to aid you.", "Silk Gland: fires a web bolt".

Have you considered the potential imbalances these would cause? Burning hands is quite handy in a certain rat-infested house, and can turn their flying relatives in a certain storage area into ashes in short order. I think balance issues need to be given priority in this over the "it's a cool drop to add" desire.

Increase payment, make drops more powerful. It seems you want to make it even easier to get to the mid-levels than it already is. Maybe it's just me, but I find the balance to be quite nice at the low levels. It ain't broke, don't fix it.

Icky First off, the powerlevelling new PC will be short on cash and have substandard gear when passes L4 and there's no more high-paying fedex quests to be had.

A level 2 character has 1,000 XP. If they're powerleveled all the way to level 4 by some highbie buddies killing rats for them -- unlikely, but this is just the kind of scenario you're suggesting -- they'd have gained 5,000 XP/gp. Five thousand gold pieces. And it only gets better if they do some of those fedex quests between resets.

And you say they'd be wearing Chainmail to the goblin fortress?

Icky, no offense but I don't think you grasp how balance works.

1) if your buddy powerlevels you, as Anthee said on those quests--they have the best gold/exp ratio overall from any quest. You'll be fine for gear, oh and you have a high level buddy who is probably gifting you a lot of gear too. I also can't see a high level character being found killing rats by his enemies--who are also high level and really don't have too much reason to go kill rats/beetles anyway. They'll kill him somewhere else, that's essentially the norm of assassinations. They get you alone, not with a bunch of friends-normally somewhere they choose to fight--not in a random location.

2) you won't miss having contacts and allies because--you have a high level buddy, who likely has high level friends. Who will all be your friends too, likely immediately upon you making a freshly escaped slave.

3) ambient loot won't make it "easier" to level up. This same ambient loot exists already, just with different names. I was suggesting adding a little more flavor to a quest and that was about it.

My suggestion won't make it "easier" to get to the mid-levels. It'll make it harder for a player to level up his good friend to get to the mid-levels. Its based on knowing for a fact that this is happening. A level 7 or 8 logs in, meets up with a brand new level 2. Takes him on these quests, earns him two-three-maybe four hundred gold--possibly more.

Anthee but this is just the kind of scenario you're suggesting -- they'd have gained 5,000 XP/gp. Five thousand gold pieces. And it only gets better if they do some of those fedex quests between resets.

How many rats are you suggesting they hunt?!?! I believe a full sewer is 40-50 rats, so what's that... 20-25 runs through the sewers - assuming nobody else is engaging in rat-hunting, and that is not including the costs of herb bags, tonics, nights at the inn, etc - which raises the number of runs you would have to make to achieve the 5000g you are suggesting.

How long will one have to dedicate to rat-hunting to wait for 20-25 rat spawns? Oh, I suppose it could be cut down by alternating between sewers and the bug cave... though bugs are limited to L3, so it's a very temporary solution.

With that much time in the sewers, I think it can be taken as guaranteed that anyone in Lower will be aware of the rat-hunting - any number of whom may not be fond of the high level individual. Add that to the calculation.

A level 2 character has 1,000 XP. If they're powerleveled all the way to level 4 by some highbie buddies killing rats for them -- unlikely, but this is just the kind of scenario you're suggesting -- they'd have gained 5,000 XP/gp. Five thousand gold pieces. And it only gets better if they do some of those fedex quests between resets.

The quests have limits. 30 rats for Gobbler is his limit I think.

Oroborous 1) if your buddy powerlevels you, as Anthee said on those quests--they have the best gold/exp ratio overall from any quest. You'll be fine for gear, oh and you have a high level buddy who is probably gifting you a lot of gear too.

I'm not sure how much you know about high-level quests, but most high levels are rather poor in comparison to low/mid levels. A L8, unless being showered with loot and gold by a loving DM, will not have the cash to kit out his low level buddy in the manner you are suggesting. Additionally the resources he is gifting to his low level buddy will mean he has less to expend in the case of the inevitable emergencies that arise (be it DM attention, random uber spawns or PvP). As this is a question of balance, the weakening effect on the high level has to be taken into account.

Oroborous I also can't see a high level character being found killing rats by his enemies--who are also high level and really don't have too much reason to go kill rats/beetles anyway. They'll kill him somewhere else, that's essentially the norm of assassinations. They get you alone, not with a bunch of friends-normally somewhere they choose to fight--not in a random location.

The word is "opportunity". That many trips to the sewer is BOUND to attract the notice of others. An assassination in the caves or sewers cannot thus be seen as "random".

http://www.m-w.com/

Please feel free to make use of the online dictionary, should English not be your first language and you have difficulty with your vocabulary.

Oroborous 2) you won't miss having contacts and allies because--you have a high level buddy, who likely has high level friends. Who will all be your friends too, likely immediately upon you making a freshly escaped slave.

Quite incorrect - many of his high level buddies will be less than welcoming of the freshly-escaped slave, and have no desire to extend their friendship to the newcomer on the sole basis that he's the long lost brother/companion/lover of the high-level. Perhaps you deal with different players than I, but most I know will be less than welcoming to an obvioulsy powerlevelled lowbie. DMs may have the ultimate decision on whether or not it is appropriate, but most players will express their dislike for it by using every IC excuse available to reject the newcomer.

But hey, maybe I hang with the wrong crowd, who aren't pure powergamers and solely interested in obtaining a new questing partner who's custom-built to enhance his high-level buddy.

Oroborous 3) ambient loot won't make it "easier" to level up. This same ambient loot exists already, just with different names. I was suggesting adding a little more flavor to a quest and that was about it.

My suggestion won't make it "easier" to get to the mid-levels. It'll make it harder for a player to level up his good friend to get to the mid-levels. Its based on knowing for a fact that this is happening.

The loot drops you are suggesting are not carried by bugs that are of no real threat to a L8 - burning hands items, for example are a common drop for animatrons - which can troublesome or dangerous for a L8 to handle. Adding them to the loot table of bugs presents a significant balance issue, as it dramatically increases the value of a run through the bug cave.

Yes, it happens that some people with a high-level meet their freshly escaped L2 buddy and help him out with his first quests. It also happens that a high-level does the same thing, with no OOC buddy agreements - purely because, for example, the new PC is (or claims to be) a cleric of the same god. Each situation needs to be looked at individually - that's one of the things DMs do - policing this sort of thing. It's not your place as a player to make assumptions on the motivations of others. Have you considered that it may have been a random meeting?

Hell, I've met new PCs and given them half-plate for no other reasons than IC ones - allied dieties or same barbarian tribe. With no previous OOC knowlegde or planning. You'd pick up your torch and pitchfork to rally the mob of witch-hunters purely because my character did something that was IC?

You're not a DM - it's THEIR decision to determine what is allowable and what is not. If they see it and decide to drop an uber spawn on the pair, or simply hit the DM kill button - that's their right. It's not yours to accuse others of unfair play because of your misconstrued perceptions.

Oroborous A level 7 or 8 logs in, meets up with a brand new level 2. Takes him on these quests, earns him two-three-maybe four hundred gold--possibly more.

5000 gp before, and now you're complaing about 200-400? Which is it? As I said before, I've given away far more than that to new PCs for purely IC reasons. Are you suggesting I've gone against the desires of the DMs and server balance by playing my character as I feel he would normally greet a newcomer?

Your attitude is very similar to those that make airport guards sieze nail-clippers and childrens safety scissors. Sure, bad things happen - but laying down new rules and restrictions on players purely because of your paranoia and the bad actions of a few, can hardly be seen as beneficial to the server.

Let's not be hostile here, people. Debate is all well and good, and I'm perfectly willing to engage in it-but let's not call into question the dedication of others to making EfU a better place, or to begin assaulting someone's character. That just isn't right.

On the topic, I think things are fine as they are. The system has worked very well, and we just need to keep levelling like we do.

Mockery and sarcasm is all.

Icky I fail to see how this is a serious balance issue - getting a little help from your high level buddy can actually prove disadvantageous to you in the long run.

First off, the powerlevelling new PC will be short on cash and have substandard gear when passes L4 and there's no more high-paying fedex quests to be had. Heading into a gobbo frotress attack and wearing chainmail isn't a lot of fun for the powerlevelled character.

Anthee A level 2 character has 1,000 XP. If they're powerleveled all the way to level 4 by some highbie buddies killing rats for them -- unlikely, but this is just the kind of scenario you're suggesting -- they'd have gained 5,000 XP/gp. Five thousand gold pieces. And it only gets better if they do some of those fedex quests between resets.

Icky How many rats are you suggesting they hunt?!?! I believe a full sewer is 40-50 rats, so what's that... 20-25 runs through the sewers - assuming nobody else is engaging in rat-hunting, and that is not including the costs of herb bags, tonics, nights at the inn, etc - which raises the number of runs you would have to make to achieve the 5000g you are suggesting.

(1) Icky claims that a highbie powerleveling a lowbie in the sewers would be disadvantageous to the lowbie because said lowbie would then have a shortage of cash with which to buy decent equipment. This presupposes that the XP/gp ratio of Gobbler's quest is not good enough gp-wise to provide enough gold for such equipment when said lowbie reaches levels 4-5, or in other words, when the easy-money fedex quests are no longer available.

(2) Anthee then notes that even in the theoretical situation where a fresh level 2 PC is powerleveled straight from level 2 to level 4 with the aid of a highbie buddy, the lowbie will have gained 5,000 gp with which to buy equipment. This is vastly more than enough even for a frontliner using full plate and tower shield. It is also noted that this amount only gets better if, as is to be expected, the lowbie also does fedex quests amidst the powerleveling.

(3) Icky retorts by saying that a scenario where a fresh PC is, indeed, leveled straight from level 2 to level 4 is completely unrealistic due to the massive numbers of rats needed for such a feat. He fails to grasp the point of the above scenario, which was to demonstrate the rather generous XP/gp ratio of Gobbler's quest regardless of how many rats one sells to Gobbler -- presupposing that fedex quests are a minor factor in leveling, which everyone can probably agree on.

That is to say, you cannot spam fedex quests all day until you've leveled out of their level range: there are only so many fedex quests per reset. Once they're done, you'll either need to do something else or wait until the next reset. That something else is the crux here: Gobbler's quest has a worse gp payout than what fedex quests have but a much better one than those of ordinary low level quests.

As an aside, it should be entirely possible to spend the entire day hunting rats because by the time you've killed the last spawns in the sewers, new spawns have already appeared. Having done a fair bit of rat-hunting with one of my characters while he was still level 4-5, I know this from experience. There were always rats to kill.

So to wrap things up, you're simply wrong, Icky, when you say that extensive powerleveling by rat-hunting with the aid of a highbie would leave a lowbie financially disadvantaged. (Herb bags and tonics aren't even an issue because the supposed scenario has all along this debate been one where a highbie is doing all the job, and a highbie certainly has good enough gear to wade through the rats without getting more than a few scratches.) The truth is very much on the contrary, and like Oro says, it is a problem that may need addressing.

Anthee,

Before I address those points, I'd like you to clarify something.

It seems you are suggesting a high level can spend ALL day in the sewers and not be noticed by the DMs or their IC enemies.

Is that correct?

The DMs already have a policy against spawn-farming, which covers this situation quite adequately. Perhaps I have an inflated view of the DMs voyeurish nature, but I am quite confident they'd see it and spank the rat-farmers. You are suggesting that this confidence is misplaced?

I suppose I am guilty of this confidence in the players as well - a L8 in the sewers alone for extended periods of time will, I am quite confident, get noticed by their IC enemies (or someone who'd squeal at least) as well. Very few people can get a character to L8 without making a fair number of IC rivals/enemies/people after his gear. All day in the sewers is not a wise thing to do for pretty much any PC I am aware of. Again, you are suggesting that my confidence in the assassins/vigilantes/professional muggers is misplaced?

Please clarify before we continue.

i support you on the subjext of enemies.

i got only to lvls 5-6 and yet, already have enemies. May Nightwind, for example.

yesterday, on the war between lower and upper, she actually felt more safe in some unknown place with two about-same-level friends. not lvl 2 character in the sewers (in case she was in lower) or the beetle caves (in case of upper).

moreover, just a few days ago, may found someone she wish to help him leveling (reach a closer circle, and be closer to his beloved god, corellon). she did not brought him to sewers, or went to low level monsters areas for xp. she kept him alive, and guided him in battle.

this server is for RolePlayers, and im sure the players here roleplay, even the so-told-leveling by higher lvl charcters.

i may be naive, but i trust the players here. :) (obviously the dms as well, heh)

Icky The DMs already have a policy against spawn-farming, which covers this situation quite adequately. Perhaps I have an inflated view of the DMs voyeurish nature, but I am quite confident they'd see it and spank the rat-farmers. You are suggesting that this confidence is misplaced?

If they see a highbie deliberately killing all the rats for a lowbie, that might be a different case. But if that is a problem, then please tell me already, why not do as Oro suggested and do something about highbies being able to farm the rats for lowbies in the first place? Are you suggesting that it's a better use for the DMs' time to spank rat-farmers whenever they see someone doing that in the sewers, instead of preventing the problem altogether? I'm wholly confident that if the DMs do, indeed, perceive that kind of behaviour as a problem, they'd much rather spend their IG time more effectively than policing the rat economy of Lower Sanctuary.

Icky I suppose I am guilty of this confidence in the players as well - a L8 in the sewers alone for extended periods of time will, I am quite confident, get noticed by their IC enemies (or someone who'd squeal at least) as well. Very few people can get a character to L8 without making a fair number of IC rivals/enemies/people after his gear. All day in the sewers is not a wise thing to do for pretty much any PC I am aware of. Again, you are suggesting that my confidence in the assassins/vigilantes/professional muggers is misplaced?

The thing is that powerleveling, by definition, isn't IC behaviour at all, so we shouldn't be relying on IC deterrents in the first place. When someone engages in an OOC activity like powerleveling, they're not following the rules of the server, so they can for instance check the player list to see if any scary people -- or DMs -- are logged in. Therefore, to answer your question: yes, your confidence in assassins/vigilantes/professional muggers is misplaced because you've mistaken this debate for one where we should be looking at the characters' IC motivations, although in truth there don't have to be any. You've the wrong set of rules laid out before you, Icky.

Anthee "Spawn-farming" refers to repeatedly going to the same monster-spawn to kill the monster(s) for XP or loot. It would seem kind of odd to call hunting rats for Gobbler "spawn-farming" because killing rats is precisely what Gobbler asks you to do! If a DM sees someone killing rats in the sewers, I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't give it a second thought. After all, it's a quest that they themselves have put in the module, for crying out loud.

Indeed correct - Gobbler DOES ask for rats to be collected from the sewers. But he asks only those of L2-5, not a L8. The L8 has no business being in the sewers stomping on rats for his lowbie friend. By your own statement, the L8's actions are in question.

Let's look at your defintion of "spawn-farming":

Anthee repeatedly going to the same monster-spawn to kill the monster(s) for XP or loot

XP? Yep, Gobbler awards that per rat meat. Loot? Yep, covered as well. Now the term repeatedly needs to be examined - as it's not defined anywhere - how much is "repeatedly"? Twice? Thrice? A score of trips through the sewers? It's a judgement call that the DMs can and (I hope) will make.

I think you're looking at the whole issue like a lawyer - trying to say that because something is not specifically disallowed, it is fine and dandy to do it. But that's not, I believe, how the DMs see things. They will, I believe, stomp on anything they consider to be unfair, unbalancing or exploitative behaviour. Buffing a friend going into a QA, for example, isn't specifically disallowed anywhere. Indeed there may be some situations where it is permissible or expected to do so. Invissing the survivors so they can recover the gear of the fallen, or a party that has taken a heavy beating by the spawns due to not being prepared for were-rats, and ask that their swords be enchanted to help them deal with the lycanthropes. In these cases, I believe a DM wouldn't mind. But buffing your buddy with everything from PfA to stoneskin so he can clear out some bats in town hall - that is quite another issue.

It's a judgement call, I believe, that the DMs have to make. You seem to feel that this isn't their place, and they will overlook the rat-collection on the basis that it isn't specifically disallowed.

Anthee If they see a highbie deliberately killing all the rats for a lowbie, that might be a different case. But if that is a problem, then please tell me already, why not do as Oro suggested and do something about highbies being able to farm the rats for lowbies in the first place?

Because it's fixing something that isn't broken. If this sort of behaviour turns out to be a problem - then sure, the DMs should address the issue. But from what I can see, it's NOT an issue, and the DMs are perfectly capable of dealing with those isolated incidents where it is being exploited.

Anthee This whole issue about being afraid of IC enemies is a matter of confusion on your behalf. Even if said highbie did have enough enemies to be afraid of going to the sewers to help his lowbie buddy powerlevel and get rich, is this the correct kind of motivation to keep him away from doing that? Surely you aren't saying that for PCs who don't have such enemies, it's okay to powerlevel people in the sewers?

I was addressing the statement that spending all day in the sewers stomping on 20-25 rat spawns and considering it to be without risk. There is indeed a risk, as I have stated - something you obviously fail to comprehend. May I direct you to:

1: My previous statement where I said quite clearly that it is NOT OK to do this by the policies as I have read them and seen them enforced by the DMs. 2. "enemies" includes opportunitistic muggers after some easy L8 gear - so unless your high level has nothing more than slave rags (and known to have such), I believe your "no enemies" hypothesis is invalidated. 3. There are all sorts of things you can do to exploit the engine and scripts - some of which the DMs can do nothing to stop without their constant presence. Keeping the server enjoyable and fair for players requires a certain level of maturity and sportsmanship on the part of the players. This works for the most part, and for the exceptions to that, the DMs have many options open to them to discourage that behaviour.

Anthee The thing is that powerleveling, by definition, isn't IC behaviour at all

Please define "powerlevelling".

From what I can see, it isn't defined. It's my observation that it's the DMs call on when a PC is levelling too quickly or doing things that are unacceptable. DMs, from what I have seen, have, do, and will continue to do what they can to discourage this sort of behaviour. Adding more rules and restrictions on players adds nothing to improve the server environment.

Anthee check the player list to see if any scary people -- or DMs -- are logged in. Therefore, to answer your question: yes, your confidence in assassins/vigilantes/professional muggers is misplaced because you've mistaken this debate for one where we should be looking at the characters' IC motivations, although in truth there don't have to be any. You've the wrong set of rules laid out before you, Icky.

I guess I'm naiive then. I'm a fool for trusting that the DMs will call into question the fact that some of the necrophiliac crowd never logs in unless their fellow corpse molesters are online. If the gang isn't there, none of the gang are - and I suppose it's foolish for me to assume that the DMs will make note of this. I'm a sad dreamer for believing that the DMs will eventually get around to giving those who do it a kick.

But hey - I suppose that my confidence is misplaced in the DMs ability to police behaviour that is unsporting or unfair - be it rat-hunters making a fortune from Gobbler, or PvP fans whose only real purpose on the server seems to be to PK others.

DMs have options on how to police unfair behavior.

1) They can sit around watching for it all day.

2) They can say "Please don't do it" and hope it works.

3) They can script in solutions so it can't happen on some of those areas where it is happening and its worth the effort.

4) They can ban people who cheat, grief, lie, cause trouble--AFTER they catch them and these people have hurt their community.

Some arguments here seem to be "DMs are omnicient, they can catch/fix any problem without influence or help from the players". This is a very optimistic argument, but the DMs run the server with help from the players; with suggestions from the players; and this is why they put up a suggestion forum. Its hard to say "Don't make suggestions about balancing the server, only DMs can make those decisions" when you're on a forum the DMs made to give such suggestions so they can read the arguments and make their decisions based on the arguments presented.

As for the four ways to control a problem player.

1. Watching all day, just isn't an option. You'll never catch all the cheaters just by watching. Unless you build a special code to watch for you, which is more work than just fixing the potential exploit. DMs run quests, update the server, try to have fun. Watching for cheaters isn't fun, nor is it that easy to catch with 1 DM and 39 players.

2) Saying "Please don't" won't work either. DMs say "Please don't cheat" all the time, people do it. In fact, the kind of people who cheat are the kind of people who are least likely to respect a request not to cheat.

3) In this case, scripting a solution takes about one minute and the problem is gone.

4) Banning is reserved for only the worst offenses. People who contribute nothing but grief and headaches to your DM team. A guy trying to help level up his friends isn't *that* bad; but its still a behavior that should not occur on a fair server especially one were PvP is open to everyone. On top of that, you still need to use plan 1) to catch the guy.

All in all, that tends to make it easier to stop this exploit than let it go on and potentially cause troubles that take a lot longer than 1 minute to fix.

No one plans to turn the server into a Nazi regime. We can all respect the DMs enough to know they will resist efforts by Hitler to make it impossible to have fun here. This isn't a suggestion like that, its a suggestion saying:

1) "Some players are unfairly going on a quest designed for level 2-5s to help them gain extra gold and experience on it and this should be stopped." It is no different than saying "Level 9s can go on the Zhurkwood factory quest and kill all the zombies for a level 2, and this should be stopped."

2) There is a scripting error, please fix it.

3) The reward seems a little on the small side. (Pretty much the opposite of a Nazi suggestion, its asking for the quest to give MORE to the people who do it fairly.)

4) It looks like either a description or a monster is incorrect; since the monster's behavior is different from what it should be like in the description.

5). Still in our anti-Nazi vein, I'm saying the rewards look a little stingy on this quest.

6). I have some ideas for more ambient loot, NOT JUST on this one beetle quest, but for any beetles anywhere because it fits the setting and will add some fun and flavor. The loot isn't terribly overpowered since it gives level one abilities on a server where you start at level 2.

So it'll be highly appreciated if you stopped calling Anthee and I Nazi-Lawyers and look at the suggestions in the big picture. Most of the suggestion taken together is INCREASING rewards for the players rather than the opposite. The one point that decreases anything, decreases the ability of someone to cheat on the quest (by our minds, and you are entirely right its up to the DMs and majority of the community to agree that this is cheating but that's why we brought it up with them for discussion), and the last point which increases loot, fun, ability of the players to defeat their enemies you rejected entirely as "too powerful" in a line of reasoning that sounds very similar to what you used when you said Anthee and I were in danger of restarting the Holocaust. That could be because I phrased the suggestion poorly and didn't make it clear I thought the ambient loot suggestions could be used with all beetles; as well as including a reminder that the beetles CAN use this loot themselves before the players get to it--sometimes making them slightly more dangerous/unpredictable while still giving you good rewards if you're fast.

a. i would have to ask any of you not to use the owrd nazy in that contest, im a jew and i find that offensive.

b. i cant see the problem, take a person who just came, it is easy to meet one who is willing, and watch him fight, im sure, that watching a character fight will give you some exprience and help you understand and thus lvl.

you say its a good thing? think again, i ask any of the palyers here, did any of you never died? i bet not... doing the fighting yourself, and not by someone else, helps you understand your char better, else it will die over and over, wizard or a fighter.

i dont beleive someone will take a paladin to aid an evil char, even though the players are friends. (or im just naive;) )

The number one fix that needs to be done is that gobbler shouldn't be taking unlimited rats. He should limit the rats he buys per reset.

I agree. I have been guilty of killing rats solely to reach the next level. You can figure out exactly how many rats you need to kill in order to level, which I believe is against the basis of this server. A limit on how much rat-meat is bought by Gobbler is not only fair, but far more realistic. I mean, how much money does this little goblin have? Low levels need ways to gain levels and gold (although before the Sanctuary split there were and still are a ridiculous amount of low-level, high treasure quests available), but come on. By the way, I have since become far more story-driven and would no longer exploit such an issue.

Orob,

I really don't know where you're getting the Nazi-lawyer statement from. I don't think it's necessary to flame someone with Hitler-related titles. Lawyers are bad enough as they are.

*edit* I'm not sure which are worse - Nazis or lawyers - a subject of much debate and contention

Well, Thrawn cut to the bone of the issue - number of rats Gobbler will buy. A simple, quick and elegant solution to the problem.

You may note, Orob, that for all your and and Anathee's arguments - you did not ONCE suggest this as a solution. Should you have, I would have heartily supported it. Instead, you argued for increasing payout, increasing loot drop value, and boosting potential XP payout - all of which would imbalance the reward of the quest.

Indeed, you are correct - forums are for discussion. Supporting ideas you agree with and challenging those you feel are detremental to the server. If you feel incapable of defending your suggestion and take any challenge to it as a personal insult - perhaps it would be best if you avoided posting.

It seems the discussion has run its course with Thrawn's change. Time to lock the thread, I say.