I think I can put this all here without too much of a spoiler.

This involves a recently added foe that is sitting in the Underdark waiting for players.

I'm missing the purpose of them beyond six or seven +16 AB attacks which can wipe out a party in a round or two unless it had good forwarning and even then--will still wipe you out.

The underdark is dangerous, I appreciate that. This is likely part of a plot, I appreciate this.

I can't say I appreciate three characters deaths in two days coupled partially to an earlier suggestion about Dispel Triggers and this particular band of nasties. I'm writing this in the Fugue with one of my characters I was pretty fond of until a nasty unexpected death involving +16 ABs and Dispel Triggers.

With an average party level of 6 on this server, this is a little past the point of reason if the goal is to challenge players without openly slaughtering them. However, this encounter openly slaughters--my first death involved a 50 point crit from an *spoiler* that I think had a spear but it was hard to say since I died in one hit before I even got a good look at the foe.

The second death involved walking through a transition over a Dispel Trigger and into six shots of +16 AB.

The third death, same thing only without the transition--I opened a door and walked through noticing the +16 AB *spoilers* a second before the Dispel Trigger.

I don't tend to think I whine over EVERY death, and I am pretty sure I'm not cursed/stupid/unlucky so I'm not likely the only person saying these things need to be rebalanced slightly.

I agree completely. One of those spoilers is at LEAST level 9 in a class that requires being at least level 14 to get the appropriete levels and it does'nt even have a proper name. Sort of crazy really. Especialy since they also have other abilities that makes avoiding them pretty hard.

I too have encountered these spoilers. I got really lucky though, but others in my party did not.

If this is some sort of plot, I can handle that, but if it's just a way to make the module harder I'm going to have to say that this may have perhaps gone a step too far.

And those dispelling triggers are elsewhere in the module as well. I've seen them at least 2 other locales that don't involve said spoilers.

In terms of normal <spoiler> soldiers, they're well-balanced.

The problem is that EfU is a really, really low-magic setting, and normal <spoiler> soldiers against our PCs... are ridiculously excessive and overpowered.

I'm sure people could tolerate these at the gates of <spoiler city>. Dropping overpowered, mid-level PCs in certain areas that PCs transit frequently, without a DM controlling them, however, is a recipe for disaster, and just ends with players being frustrated that they got slapped around in the face with something they had zero chance against.

These things are overkill, and the normal spawns of them need to be toned down.

These spawns are definitely part of a plot.

That said, I don't think there's intended to be any chance of survival, outside of avoiding them entirely.

Everything mentioned is an IC issue. Rock out with it.

Sure, it's all an IC issue.

That being said, people are running into overpowered, yet entirely IC and appropriate <spoilers>, and getting slaughtered ridiculously.

I'm sure it's all IC, but some OOC efforts to make them less ridiculous, or at least move them away from transitions so they don't pepper people right away, would be nice.

If slaughtering PCs with zero chance for them to do much is the purpose of these <spoilers>, then cool, rock out.

You could possibly give them a defensive AI so they sort of stamp foot and go "boo" and if you run off, wander back to their group. If you're stupid and try to fight them, well, you die.

They are easily avoidable if you want to avoid them.

The only issue is other players dragging them around, if you leave something nasty on a transition (in any case, not just this) please send a /dm message explaining.

I’m going to go out on a limb and support said *spoilers* for one reason that I am glad to see happening. But before that I will say that I have been taken to 1 hp due to a crit on the first swing from said *spoiler*, so I have intimately come in contact with what is out there.

Over the past few month Sanctuary has fought off and gotten out of gate assaults from various different things. Along with those I think came the hubris and a sense of safety in Sanctuary, something that I have been getting from a lot of the characters that I have interacted with in the form of a feeling that “we are bad@$$”. The hate against *spoilers* was perhaps role played, but certainly not the fear of them. Nor was the fear and anxiety of living in an extremely tenuous situation as the one that Sanctaury finds itself. People had free run of the underdark up until the gates of all three main superpower cities with almost no repercussions. And all this from a bunch of upstart ex-slave fodder that any of those cities could grind into dust on a whim. I mean, do any remember how much trouble the goblins had given the city in times not long ago? That this fear is now accurately portrayed, that people are now realizing that Sanctuary exists at the whim of anything out there, I think is long overdue.

I will agree, however, that popping out of a transition onto that is nasty.

I'm delighted to see *spoilers* holding bridges + other trails.

I know this makes fetch quests a bummer, but listen to the catfish!

Now, why, oh why would it ever be IC for any non-sneaky character class to not hire a guide for any journey throughout the Underdark?

It's the freaking Underdark!

Metro_Pack Everything mentioned is an IC issue. Rock out with it.

I'm actually pointing out the OOC fact that overpowering, extremely lethal, random encounters that can wipe out entire parties is a disappointment to me as a player.

I may not know exactly what the plot is, but I've got to go on record as saying I don't like the way its been implemented and think a less hammer-ish way to get the point that the drow are riled up and angry could have been accomplished without the erradication of many characters by encounters they don't stand a chance against.

Specifically one of these routes would have left less of a sour taste in my mouth as a player logging into enjoy a game:

1) The drow could issue threats, warning people IC so they know to avoid these drow patrols and just how incredibly lethal they are.

2) The encounters could be non-hostile NPCs who engage you in a dialogue and if you don't say what they want to hear--which may mean nothing you say is going to help you--then they attack but it gives a player a chance to try to escape.

3) The encounters could be toned down to present a "threat" to a party but not an entire annihilation of most parties through the Triggers, +16 AB enemies, and 50+ damage criticals.

I'm sorry you died, Oro, but I'm pretty sure that unless someone had dragged them all over the place, it should have been something avoidable if you chose so.

I think a lot of it might be time zone issues for you, since most of what you suggest has already happened IG. Lots of people have been warned, and if the PCs choose not to warn the rest of the city, it's an IC issue.

No more spoilers though.

Thanks for the offer of sympathy metro. It actually helps to hear.

My ultimate point isn't necessarily that I and several other players died.

Its the method in which those deaths occurred and the overall lack of fun or entertainment gleaned from getting the floor wiped with you by an overpowering encounter that did nothing to involve your character in the plot since by the time you see the drow, you die.

As for the one: it was right near a transition and exactly where it was placed. I walked through, I took three hits and just barely survived with 1 hp.

The second death, I had exactly 1 second to react as a door opened and I set off a trigger. That's not honestly easily avoided unless you were expecting an ambush of insurmountable lethality.

Nothing more to say to this, but I think it is a timezone issue. I have not yet heard of these *spoilers* IG at all. I admit I don't play that much, but still.

Stop being babies, it's the underdark. It's hard and you die sometimes. They are basicly the rulers of the underdark and some human with a surplus pos sword should not stand a chance agasint them and their magical gear. I died to them and I think it was rather hilarious.

But this isn't the real Underdark. If you feel fine having a 5% chance of survival each time you leave Sanctuary, go ahead and look up those patrols. On the other hands, there are players who'd feel better not having to die constantly.

They are easily avoidable, the hyperbolic statements in this thread *coughcoldburn* are beginning to render it useless.

Just my 0.2 cent to this, and let it be said that I write this with all due respect to the DM team on EfU, as they are really rock:

I'm DMing P&P RPGs since 15 years, and having an obviously uberpower, invincible enemy is -altough can be realistic- never good for players moral in a game. I had my share of bad experiences with that from both player and DM side.

The DM can always kill any player if he wants. Period. Players are not happy if they get reminded on this on a blunt way. They put a certain trust in the DM that he won't abuse his priviliged position, and things like that tend to erode that trust. Actually it is a very fine line to walk, needs a lot of finesse. I think this is the point which frustrates Oro the most in this.

The trick is in perception. DM can make the enemy seeming very very tought instead of uberpower, and the situation becomes not so blunt at the moment.

Like toning down their individual power, lessening their level some, and giving them a bit less powerful magic items -but increase their numbers 1.5 times.

If a party finds them, and manages to kill one, or having some longer fight with them before they wipe the floor clean with the party the number of player complains reduce dramatically. Heck, the fools can even regroup, get some reinforcement and try their luck with them again, getting again buttock-whumped and killed for their stupidity. :twisted: But it is their own fault from than on, no one can say a word.

It is okay to create a deadly situation for the players, but there are more than one way to do it. The trick is -as usual- not WHAT you do but HOW you do it.

Saying all that, all of my characters are currently sitting in the city, and there is no friggin way they would move outside in the next week. :D

I have always found it more interesting, in the long-term, to have the common perception be that the enemy is invincible, when he is, in fact, not. Then, the players who find the weakness, or find a creative way to combat the enemy, are set apart.

-Cross

Crosswind I have always found it more interesting, in the long-term, to have the common perception be that the enemy is invincible, when he is, in fact, not. Then, the players who find the weakness, or find a creative way to combat the enemy, are set apart.

-Cross

Because they're alive. Everyone else died and made a new character. There is a difference between "invincible" and "immediately lethal" that hardly needs to be explained.

IE: Luke couldn't beat Vader. Vader seemed invincible, but Vader also didn't kill Luke during any of there first three or four encounters even though he could have done so. It made the story a lot more interesting for the long-term that Luke was able to escape/flee/avoid Vader's first assaults. This is a situation of putting Luke riding a tomtom up against Vader in the Super Star Destroyer Executer.

See, I log on the forums to check them and answer the question... 'should I log on? maybe it isn't as bad as I remember it...'

Then I see threads like this and decide to stay the heck away.

IC or not, this sort of situation is doubleplusunfun for players when any death (read: slight mistake) will send them back to the dark ages of their character progression.

It would be a lot MORE fun for players who already KNOW they're as good as swiss cheese if they step outside Sanctuary to do something like Oro suggested earlier, involving interaction and IC choice.

Does anyone else find strong parallels between this thread and the 'live and let live' one? Sure, ganking players is one way of getting the 'tread carefully about these NPCs' point across... but it results in a heck of a lot of ooc grief.

Creative options can achieve the same result in a more entertaining, involved fashion for everyone. If Jimmy the Barbarian makes tasteless jokes about the spoilers' mothers, by all means, he's rothe food. If the paladin asks the spoilers to change their evil ways, she's not even rothe food, more like pixie dust. But these are the results of IC actions. And don't these spoilers usually take slaves instead of wasting good working humanoids, anyway?

Thank you all for your suggestions. Although this is not a plot I have thus far been involved in as a DM, some of the commentary here is out of control.

There was a brief period of a day or two in which the fact that these drow had moved in was not well known to many characters. During this time I understand that low level characters could have run out to somewhere dangerous and been killed in a way that wasn't very fun for them. For that, I apologize. If there was an issue where the NPCs were in some way attacking right at a transition, I am particularly sympathetic, as that is not fun.

At this stage, there is ample IC warning about the dangers these drow represent (including large signs at both gates).

I do know that a number of the drow forces were taken on by well prepared groups and defeated by Sanctuary adventurers, so I do not think it is accurate to say that they are completely impossible.

I also know that many of these drow were possessed and interacted with adventurers when a DM was watching, unfortunately a DM can not be around at all times.

I do not believe that EfU's death penalties are in anyway unreasonable or unsurmountable. I would be happy to expand upon this in a separate thread, but I feel very strongly about this issue.

I also think it's wildly inaccurate to say that EfU has tons of inappropriate PvP going on, it doesn't happen all that often but when it does it is overwhelmingly to the mutual satisfaction of both parties.

If anyone has any specific suggestions to make, feel free to open a new thread. If anyone has any lingering questions or concerns, they can PM me.