Touchy subject... ask 5 people get 10^28 answers. Precisley WHEN is it fair game to say you visibly see a person you see/hear in "ghost mode" who is sneaking?

What is the guide line?

Saying "as long as they are sneaking, you can't see them" is ridiculous because if you see them with spot... they are seen, just because they are sneaking, does not mean they are not seen.

Likewise if you consistantly hear someone, you would turn your head and see them.

Lets clear it up a bit if we can with a general rule, if there is one lol.

As far as I know, if the character is shaded, whether heard from a sneak or "heard" from invisibility, your character has heard something. You probably have no real idea who or what it is, it's akin to a "what was that?" reaction where most people would probably stare at the area they just heard the noise come from, but then go back to doing whatever they were doing.

It's acceptable to quaff a See Invisibility potion, especially if you're playing a up-tight, nervous character, or you might even physically lash out at the air you heard the noise come from. It is however, frowned upon to say things like, "I hear a mage! / I hear a sneak!" or "I smell a mage! / I smell a sneak!", for unless you have a good reason to know who it is, you don't at all.

Past here, I like it when players advance this a little beyond the basic rule and apply a little bit of common sense to the 'heard' aspect. If a character is following you invisibly and is too close, you are much more likely to pick up the sound of footprints and have much more of a reason to be aware of something's presence than if you happen to walk by a invisible person who's pressed up against a corner of the wall standing completely still. That though, is up to the players. It's beyond how the DM's expect players to interpret what the engine shows.

Like Strife says-

If you see them you see them. (steathed character appears normal) If you hear them you hear them. (stealth character appears opaque)

It is feasible that you hear something and cannot tell what made that noise. Any incharacter response for the situation is appropriate.

If you continuosly hear a character in a quasi closed, or well lit enviroment.... eventually you WILL "see" them just by looking at the frequent noises. The problem is, when is that fair to say?

There are too many situations to just have a sort of "set rule", though if you see a stealther, it's safe to assume you heard something. This does not mean you have identified them, as Strife pointed out, but you do notice something probably.

Everything I am about to write can be summed up like this:

If you don't know if you would hear them or not, use common sense, and as a last resort, send the sneak a tell.

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I'd like to make a note: You don't have to be in stealth mode to be sneaking! This goes especially for NPCs who technically NEVER sneak. What you DO have to do is check a few things...

A) Do they have cover? Then unless you can see through walls, you probably don't see them. Chances are you won't hear them either unless they're making noise for some reason.

B) Are they in armor, or are they talking? Then you might send them a tell asking them about it. Also, if they aren't moving, you PROBABLY don't hear them unless you have some rediculous Listen score. In that case, just send a tell asking if it's reasonable you heard them. Be reasonable, especially if they've put points into Move Silently and your Listen is still set to a whopping +2. "Being too busy IG" or "Not having time" to send a tell doesn't work, because if you're that busy, then you certainly aren't paying enough attention to hear someone stepping on the soft dirt roads, which leads to...

C) VERY important: Where are you? In the middle of Town Hall? If it's an invisible person running, then you can probably hear them. If it's a thief in stealth mode with invisibility during a fiery campaign speech, you're not going to hear it. In the streets? You probably won't HEAR them, but seeing them is probable, as long as they're walking down the middle of the road, again, for some strange reason.

D) Smelling someone is pretty crazy. Of course, some characters make special note that they smell bad. If that's the case, the sneaker should probably whisper an emote detailing that stench. *emits a rancid odor, something akin to Mandarin Dreagle mixed with dead rothe*

Just my deux cents.

~Garem

ADDENDUM TO VESA: It sounds like you're describing a tunnel. Is there anything to hide behind? If not, after the first is probably fair. If so, it just depends on the corridor and/or size of the sneak, I'd say. And you can always ask them if they'll make a roll for you, you can counter with a Listen.

The problem is, when is that fair to say?

Never, ever, ever, ever. So long as they remain fuzzy, you don't see them. This is clearly explained on both our rules IG and on the website.

Vesa If you continuosly hear a character in a quasi closed, or well lit enviroment.... eventually you WILL "see" them just by looking at the frequent noises. The problem is, when is that fair to say?

When you make a successful spot roll, and they are no longer shaded. However, you are able to swing wildly at them and such to get them to reveal themselves, just be ready to face consequences for such actions.

Howland

The problem is, when is that fair to say?

Never, ever, ever, ever. So long as they remain fuzzy, you don't see them. This is clearly explained on both our rules IG and on the website.

Well that clears it up, lol, in defence of my question though, after re-reading the in game rules just now for the Xth time to confirm... I don't see it mentioned clearly, the closest is #11-the no meta gaming rule, but clearly by some of the other responses in this thread at least, other people did not think it was meta gaming.

Perhaps add to that rule, or a new one specifically saying how spot/listen work?

On a similar note, I've had total random strangers who've either spotted me or heard me and come up to me and make a public emote like *nods to [character name]*. If I was spotted, I don't mind that kind of response, but if I was heard, it's really annoys me.

Mechanics changes:

Stealth is more effective in some areas (such as dark caves) than it is in brightly lit rooms. A PC that is transluscent has been heard only, not spotted (this is default, but bears repeating: although difficult to enforce, we ask that people do not definitively identify characters who have only been "heard").

That's actually the only mention, so you're right that it definitely isn't "clearly" mentioned. Apologies, it's just an issue I feel strongly about! Stealth and spying is an important of EfU, and I just very much hope that people get it right.

I'll see about adding it to the IG journal entries, the problem is that it can be easy to overload players with so many trivial rules and guidelines that they rapidly get overwhelmed and end up not reading anything.

Well, as far as I see it, the engine is fairly limited when it comes to this, and it's very hard to use any other way of defining these things than playing by how Howland mentioned it.

The only thing I find annoying with this, are people sneaking in the middle of a near empty street, and me hearing them, possibly turning around them and still not spotting them even if they stand almost next to me. Not many luckily do this, but I'd just like to use this opportunity to ask people to use some OOC sense with this too.

There's no way you could sneak in the -middle- of a -well lit- inn hall, even if the mechanics say so. I'd like to see at least some effort made with this by the sneaking person standing in the corner, possibly next to a bookshelf, behind a door, etc. As I said though, not many luckily act according to the first case. (Or then my listen&spot are just too poor ;))

Of course, this is not the DM ruling on this, just my personal rambling once again. If I've gotten it all wrong, I deserve a good spanking.

Yeah... I have actually been stalked by a guy in full plate walking along about 2 feet behind me. When i turned around and said "What?" He had a go at me for seeing him in stealth. I dunno, but it's kinda impossible not to see someoen doing that, especially along Upper with a 8 Listen/Spot Halfing.

Would that be considered acceptable?

Depends if he was shaded (you only heard footsteps or the clunck of metal etc.) or if he was clearly visible (meaning you have spotted him). If he was surrounded by a white light, thats invisibility, which you cannot pierce without the appropriate spell. But the fact he came on your screen if he was invisible means you only heard him.

Ah, kk. Got it now. Yeah, he was shaded, no white shinyness.

For those of you who think it's smart to make a point of the fact that you have spotted someone sneaking with a suggestive emote such as "Looks closely at <name>", it's not. It just gives away the fact that you have only heard the person and can't see them but you're making out as if you have.

If you'd have spotted them properly, there's no graphical difference between them and someone walking normally so you wouldn't have realised they'd have been sneaking. So in other words, to have decided that they were sneaking, you'd have to have only heard them.

I know a lot of people do this to people that sneak around as a sort of "Aha! I've got one over on you, sneaker!" style statement. I've played a rogue on EfU before. Little do they know, jokes on them, because walking into a room to incur three or four "Narrows eyes at <name>" emotes is tantamount to them saying "I'm a metagamer!"

I have a suggestion.

Since NWN doesn't ever tell you HOW you revealed a hidden creature (was it by a spot check or a listen check or both?) maybe we could get a status message above our heads letting us know if we A.) spotted or heard someone and/or B.) were spotted or were heard by someone. Kinda like when you enter stealth mode the text "Stealth Mode Enabled (Run Disabled)" that appears above our head when we enter it.

Is it possible to have something like that but it says "Steath Breached: Spot Check" or Stealth Breach: Listen Check"

Or maybe show us in the combat log box when we are being spot or listen checked?

I have a feeling Arkov is going to chime in here and say "that would be nice, but the game doesn't allow for it", but still thought I'd suggest it.

It might help players know whether they saw something or heard something. If I hear something scratching on the floor, it could be my feet or it could be an animal running beneath the building. But if I SEE something move, and it's a bright room, then I could probably tell if it was an animal or person and thus say "who goes there?" Where as the listen scenario would be "what was that noise?"

If they're transparent, you heard them.

If they're not transparent, you saw them.

It's not complicated.

Since NWN doesn't ever tell you HOW you revealed a hidden creature (was it by a spot check or a listen check or both?) maybe we could get a status message above our heads letting us know if we A.) spotted or heard someone and/or B.) were spotted or were heard by someone. Kinda like when you enter stealth mode the text "Stealth Mode Enabled (Run Disabled)" that appears above our head when we enter it.

NWN -does- tell you how. :roll:

This thread was pretty much over after the second post!

Ladocicea For those of you who think it's smart to make a point of the fact that you have spotted someone sneaking with a suggestive emote such as "Looks closely at <name>", it's not. It just gives away the fact that you have only heard the person and can't see them but you're making out as if you have.

If you'd have spotted them properly, there's no graphical difference between them and someone walking normally so you wouldn't have realised they'd have been sneaking. So in other words, to have decided that they were sneaking, you'd have to have only heard them.

I know a lot of people do this to people that sneak around as a sort of "Aha! I've got one over on you, sneaker!" style statement. I've played a rogue on EfU before. Little do they know, jokes on them, because walking into a room to incur three or four "Narrows eyes at <name>" emotes is tantamount to them saying "I'm a metagamer!"

Actually lado sometimes you spot them straight off, they go from fadded to unfadded while still walking this either indicates a mode switch into detect mode or a spot check. Though I don't bother with this myself though I feel it should be accounted for before a finger is pointed.

I second Naga.

Also, I think you get regular check rolls to see if you spot - so you might hear someone (faded but visible) but only see them some time later (totally visible).

The rule is set but i'll point out the obvious. If you consistantly hear someone in a confined or bright place and have reason to suspect someone is there anyway, you WILL see them. Except a succesful listen check has no effect on a succesfull spot check which means mechanically someone could walk around in a circle for an hour and you hear them the whole time, but evenif they are a foot from your face, you don't see them. I doubt any sort of scriptable solution can be done, or that anyone would be willing if it was possible heh, it sounds like a lot of work.

I'm not sure how many times I need to say this.

If someone is fuzzy, that means you haven't spotted them. I don't care if they are right next to you in a brightly lit room.

Areas that are brightly lit in EfU are harder to hide in. We have stealth modifiers on almost every area. When a character starts to get very high stealth (which is quite challenging in EfU!) you can assume it's becoming a semi-magical ability, and not simply hiding around a corner.

f you consistantly hear someone in a confined or bright place and have reason to suspect someone is there anyway, you WILL see them.

No, no, no. You do not see them until the engine makes you see them. I ask that players please accept the rules that the DM team have put into place and not overrule us.

If you hear someone sneaking around, then use spells/demand to know who is there/drink potions/try to smack whatever you hear... but you do not spot them!

I meant if EFU was real life... or PnP heh. Of course the rule on EFU, is the rule on EFU.

Why is this still open?

Good question.