There's a small problem on EfU I find needs to be talked about; life expectancy of characters.

It's hard to manage big plots especially if the people you're sharing the plot with dies after a month or two. I think people should consider that PvP doesn't always have to end in death.

I understand the setting calls for harsh and unforgiving, but for the sake of the plots and players, sometimes it maybe better, if not more fun in the long run, to live and let live.

I know it's a touchy subject, hence why I'm posting this. Please share your thoughts. I really want to see a DM's opinion on this.

p/s - This topic has nothing to do with me protecting my personal character. It's just a subject I've discussed with other players before and decided to put this up for all to have their say.

I personally dislike it when people always resort to PvP murder to end a problem. I'm not just saying this because my first main character was the target of countless assassinations, I've been in similiar spots where it would be easiest to simply murder another. In fact, I had the most fun when Mandarin, whih I would say was my character's biggest rival would simply work against him without direct combat. These sort of rivalries encourage role play, creativity, they're intense and they bring more depth to a character.

PvP doesn't have to end in murder. It can end with a harsh beating and a threat. It can end with only a beating and an obvious message. Think about it, how often do characters enter combat in stories, movies and books to just have their adversary escape alive? It makes for more excitement, it cuts the victim some slack (Especially if the level difference is obvious).

I know for a fact a lot of awesome characters and plots have been cut short by PvP that probably or couldn't of happened.

I do think people resort to killing much too quickly, but I also think that people often bring it on themselves. When you get beat down and keep going back, you leave the other party little choice on how to deal with you.

As for plots. I divide plots into two types when designing them. Active plots and inactive plots.

Active plots often revolve around certain characters and can be greatly affected by someone disappearing. I try to always keep these plots to a few weeks, as it limits the player turnover I have to deal with.

Inactive plots are ones I generally script things into and don't care who finds things to uncover the clues of the plot. These are more background information on areas and such. As it doesn't matter who works on them, and they pace based on interest from PC's, these go longer.

Players need to think in terms of active plots mostly, since they seem to build around certain characters. Try stories too long term if they depend on a lot of people being around.

But I don't think attitudes will change when it comes to beatings.

It's always going to be the case that people who get beaten up really badly or tortured will only see it as more of an incentive to plan the assassination of their enemies. People will never see it as "This guy can rough me up so bad. I won't mess with them in future."

Death is the only thing that works, really. People can't feel the unpleasantness of the pain of being beaten. They only feel the pain of losing exp on death. I'm doubtful that will change.

Thrawn and Lado nailed it. I, for one, enjoy the level of PVP here. Its seems fitting to the atmosphere. Often people do bringit on themselves. One can only tolerate so much meddling by others before you have to just remove them from the equation. Now, sure, you could tie them up and throw them down a well, and they could return at an inoppurtune time, and there would be a musical score appropriate for the moment, but we dont really have a soap opera here. Not that much any way. Lado is right in that if you beat a person, it only fuels them. They get more people, or hire someone to kill you, etc. You can take all the points in intimidate you want, the only message people get is a corpse. Some people dont even get that. There are some characters that have been around for some time now. Some not so much. I'm all for alternative methods and I'd love to see how we can expand that. Mostly it takes cooperation from all parties involved. Thats both the problem and the solution

Make love, not war, is my motto in regards to PvP.

Ladocicea But I don't think attitudes will change when it comes to beatings.

It's always going to be the case that people who get beaten up really badly or tortured will only see it as more of an incentive to plan the assassination of their enemies. People will never see it as "This guy can rough me up so bad. I won't mess with them in future."

Death is the only thing that works, really. People can't feel the unpleasantness of the pain of being beaten. They only feel the pain of losing exp on death. I'm doubtful that will change.

Lad hit the nail on the head. This has been my experience in this and other servers. You beat the guy up and that only fuels him to return. Like Lad said, the "This guy can rough me up so bad that I won't mess with him in the future" mentality does not exist.

I try to let people live in PvP if I think the person will actually fear me or if I don't think its absolutely necessary, but sometimes the other party struggles so bad that you have little other choice without jeopardizing yourself.

If I get beat in PvP, I never go back and fight the person again willingly. Most of the time it's happened, Cail has retreated with his tail between his legs, trying to keep his dignity, and blatantly refusing to fight again in the future.

That said, he tends to attempt revenge in other ways.

When Zerelde beat his ass, he ended up getting her exiled from Upper Sanctuary

Ladocicea But I don't think attitudes will change when it comes to beatings.

I could not agree with you more Ladocicea.

It's always going to be the case that people who get beaten up really badly or tortured will only see it as more of an incentive to plan the assassination of their enemies. People will never see it as "This guy can rough me up so bad. I won't mess with them in future."

Death is the only thing that works, really. People can't feel the unpleasantness of the pain of being beaten. They only feel the pain of losing exp on death. I'm doubtful that will change.

I shy away from FD killing, but it can still be frustrating.

Latley i've been copying something I saw Kiaring do once, where in once the person is subjugated beyond belief, take their gold and laugh as you pour most of it over their face. That was one of the nicer methods I've seen when the next step should be a decapitation, instead of a decapitation.

People almost *NEVER* take the IC fear that goes along with a massive beating or torture, all they plan to do is kill the person later or harm them. Now to be fair a majority of these plans do not come to fruition but they happen often enough, to be frustrating. While the would be beater is being nice by not FD killing the victim, this is as often as not not taken into consideration.

I totally agree that people should respond alot more to a severe beat-down. Unless your character is completely and utterly stupid, absolutely fearless, or has an all-consuming penchant for revenge (all of which are certainly possible), then you should really think about whether going after the guy that just dusted you with ease is a good idea. Characters are people: they get scared, intimidated, consumed with fear for their own life. Remember that!

Sure, he took your gold and potions. So what? Be thankful the guy didnt kill you when he obviously could of. Be thankful he enacted some OOC courtesy on a server which (for me) of late has seen little. This is a pretty basic concept:

You and another guy fight. He wins. Instead of killing you, he threatens you and everything you hold dear. However, you choose to ignore all that and come back for him with a few mates and some more levels under your belt. You PK his arse straight up.

The above scenario is all too common. We've all done it, or know someone who has. Really, I think we need alot less of this. This is because the guy who ended up getting killed only died because, essentially, he chose to be OOCly courteous. Now, what is he to think? His next PC will be predisposed to kill instead, ensuring his survival. And that choice is completely warranted, given the demise of his last PC! The result is a spiralling one, with more and more people doing the same. More PC deaths over things which might not warrant a killing ICly.

In saying that, I also have to say it sometimes is up to the guy who beat the other guy down as well. You have to work hard to give the impression to the guy who is on the floor bleeding to death that you could make sure he is in that position again whenever you want him to be. Take his most prized possession and tell him he'll get it back if he cooperates. Tell him you know who his loved ones are and that they'll all die if only one of your many informants spies him ploting against you in the future. Follow him with invis or stealth a few times afterward, coming out behind him when he is alone, your weapon poised on his throat, then utter a subtle warning. Leave him without a trace of doubt that should he so much as even -think- of revenge, if only for an instant, that you'll be there to end him without mercy. All this is really fun to do, and usually equally as awesome to react to, in the case of the other guy. And fun is the reason we all play this game!

Even if I do think there should be more realistic reactions to a beat down on the part of the beatee (for lack of a better/real word), there are definetly guys out there who do it. I could name a few, but Michael De La Rey is probably the most prominent (for me). He was a no-bullshit Spellguard wizard. Arrogant and powerful. But after a series of encounters with one of my PCs, he learned that there were others who could take his life whenever they wanted to. And he reacted to that like almost anyone in his position should have, which, for me, is something that should be celebrated alot more on this server. Well done to those guys who do it!

Which brings me to my next point. Sometimes other factors develop after a beatdown which pretty much leave the beatee no choice but to go after the guy who kicked his arse after all. In keeping with the example above, De La Rey was actually -ordered- by his superior to continue on with hostilities against my PC. Things like that, which change the beatee's stance, happen all the time. And thats a good thing.

This may sound a little strange considering what I've said so far, but death is an often necessary thing which may even continue, expand or even create new plots. It can even be fun! All my PCs have died to PvP (I kind of suck at it :x ) and their deaths have been totally awesome, a product of the sheer intensity of it all. You also have to remember that there are character concepts who depend on PC death to advance, in particular assasin-types. But, in the end, and as always the case, its a case of the few bringing down the many.

To recap, just think about what your character would -feel- in any situation he is in. Don't worry about XP/item loss. Worry about plots, stories, your character, other players' characters. Ultimately its your own choice what your PC does in any situation, and no one (except DMs 'o course) can tell you how you should or shouldnt have played your character. All I'm saying is think. :wink:

-MadCads

My own two cents.

I don't personally enjoy FD RP PvP, especially on low-magic, high-death-penalty servers. (In non-RP games, I'm all for it. I love the thrill.)

However... for better or for worse, the high risk of unpleasant death and subsequent (relatively) humongous xp loss is a large part of what makes EfU's atmosphere so compelling.

Because the whole setting has pretty much been built and balanced around the 'living on the edge' theme, it would be unwise to do away with the constant threat of a game-mechanics-painful death for IC actions.

Will this mean the server will repel certain players? Certainly. Me, for one. I only log on once in a while and don't really quest, because I can't stand the death penalties. These days, I do most of my RPing on another, high-magic/levels low death server, and on an MMORPG with trivial death penalties.

However... when I DO log on, I appreciate the atmosphere of risk and instability, as, I'm sure, do those who log on regularly. I see it as one of the key characteristics of the world, and part of the reason the type of RP that takes place here is as good as it is.

On yet another server I no longer play on, my main character was a prolific assassin. After the first career kill, though, I decided to do all further kills on subdual, sending a *please RP this as a death* tell to the victim. It worked just fine. Every time I've suggested this elsewhere, I've been flamed to heck and back, so I assume it's not a viable option for anyone else on any other server. Still, I thought I'd toss it out there.

Freit After the first career kill, though, I decided to do all further kills on subdual, sending a *please RP this as a death* tell to the victim. It worked just fine. Every time I've suggested this elsewhere, I've been flamed to heck and back, so I assume it's not a viable option for anyone else on any other server. Still, I thought I'd toss it out there.

Actually, Freit, that's a very courteous thing for you to do as a player. If my PC hired your assassin to threaten or seriously rough up another PC, I'd be pleased as punchhimintheneck. And I think that might work with a handful of rolelplayers here.

However, after watching the reactions to a not-so-recent string of assassinations, I question whether many of the player base even know how how they should roleplay their reaction to PvP.

But not every assassin is paid to deal out Noogies of Doom. Some of them are expected to actually kill their targets. And if they don't, there's always another assassin ready + willing to finish their job before finishing them. That's part of an assassin's story.

PvP should broaden the spectrum of available stories we can tell with our characters.

This is a tough issue. I'd say as a general rule of thumb, it's often good to give an opponent at least one chance to talk their way out of a situation (beat down/warning/etc.). I think PvP is an important part of the server but it's certainly often bitter-sweet, especially when engaged between two totally awesome characters that add a lot to the server. Ultimately, though, I think a character dying in a worthy battle with an opponent often enhances that character that much more rather than the player just getting bored with the PC and ending him on a scripted quest.

I'm not sure I think that PvP is the reason that there's character turn-around. Most characters don't get ended by PvP, most just stop after a while because the player decides they want to play something else. I agree long-term plots are a challenge because of the rapid turn-around, though.

I think the main issue here is not so much with the amount of PvP, but as has been pointed out, the RP of the "beatee". I think responding IC for your character is the best thing you can do in pretty much ANY situation. Yes, assassinations should happen, but I doubt 100% of characters who take revenge on someone are really IC.

Most good aligned characters would not seek revenge unless its appropriate for a cause of greater good. And most evil characters DO feel fear, so I don't think overt self-interest is a universal reason for revenge. The atmosphere of fear and survival should not just be felt on scripted quests or adventuring in the Underdark, it should be felt in PvP as well. If your character fears wandering the Underdark alone because they might get pwned by an Elemental, then they sure as hell would fear facing a PC who brought them to the brink of death alone.

I really like what MadCaddies had to say. I'm all for giving people a chance. Your love of your character is a fine line. You should care about your character, but dont get too attached. Characters themselves are really important to remember. The concept that is. For this world we are dealing with a few different types. Mainly though, we are slaves. Recently freed slaves in most cases. I would find it hard to believe that said slave then uses his new found freedom to become the underdarks most feared assassin. Of course there are always exceptions. As time has gone on I think a lot of the slave mentality has dissipatted. Of course then you have your natives, and unfortunate happenings like falling seven miles down into this back water. It is believable for your hostility from ebing a slave to manifest into a bad person or a sadist. What MadCaddies wrote about putting the fear of you into a person and then tracking them and popping up next to them with a dagger to their kidney is great. Crosswind once had a monk on another server who was an accomplished assassin. I can recall seeing him materialize out of no where (from being stealthed) glaring at someone he had history with, and then slipping into the shadows. It scared the hell out of me, and my character didnt even have anything to do with his. That was brilliant. Like the Sword of Damocles. Unfortunatly, we cant always spare life. I've seen skilled killers give people more than enough chance to walk out, or to buy their way out. I once saw Zau give a handful of people more than enough chance to bugger out. After giving several chances, he gave a three count, and then it was on. Many died that day. Did they have to? No. He gave them a chance, and the opposing characters stayed. Why? One of two reasons most likely. 1) Because it was IC to stand their ground or 2) They could earn their 15 minutes of fame by taking down the scary Zau monster. I myself, have killed based on not only IC reasons, but because of how I designed my character and how his stats read. I have also killed because I didnt realize I was on FD :oops: . Make a checklist whe you get in PVP, and make sure checking your setting is on said checklist. All cases were extreme and the other party was given plenty of less painful options. Again, I like the level of PVP and the outcomes here. On another server I played on, people always talked big but little ever came of it. If someone actually engaged in a lot of FD PVP they became public enemy number one on everyone's list. A FD PVP situation should be the end of your character. But, your character should live on and create plots for others. If you have close friend that care for you, your death should generate a plot for your commrades. A "Who done it" in which justice or revenge is saught.

Hookswords If you have close friend that care for you, your death should generate a plot for your commrades. A "Who done it" in which justice or revenge is saught.

I remember staying down in just such a situation. Sometimes, OOC/RL/WTF reasons prevent players from picking up on Whodunnit threads. :cry:

However, Whodunnit threads are wonderful to play out. And town of ex-slaves or not, we're not playing townsfolk, we're playing adventurers. We're the exceptional ex-slaves who have the nerve to walk around the Underdark making short work of stone lizards and doin' other heroic stuff.

I wonder how many players lose interest in a character because they don't consider direct conflict (not necessarily PvP ending in death) an option for their characters? What happened to The Awesome?

Killing someone has pretty much always been an admission of a lack of uncreativity on the part of the killer. And with it being so commonplace, it hardly distinguishes the killer any more. So why not try for something a bit more creative?

-Cross

Ladocicea But I don't think attitudes will change when it comes to beatings.

It's always going to be the case that people who get beaten up really badly or tortured will only see it as more of an incentive to plan the assassination of their enemies. People will never see it as "This guy can rough me up so bad. I won't mess with them in future."

Death is the only thing that works, really. People can't feel the unpleasantness of the pain of being beaten. They only feel the pain of losing exp on death. I'm doubtful that will change.

Yeah this is my point of veiw as well and is the main reason that occasionally killing is the best option. I try to avoid it when possible but unfortunatly it usually comes back to end my character.

BUT in the past when I've found ways to let people live with only beatdowns or maybe an item taken or some such its usually rewarded so its always worth considering.

As has been pointed out. If I kill you 9/10 I will give you a chance to get away or I will express some sort of hefty aggitation with you ic'ly with most characters.

Theres nearly always an out when it comes to these things sometimes its more obvious than others.

Ladocicea But I don't think attitudes will change when it comes to beatings.

It's always going to be the case that people who get beaten up really badly or tortured will only see it as more of an incentive to plan the assassination of their enemies. People will never see it as "This guy can rough me up so bad. I won't mess with them in future."

Death is the only thing that works, really. People can't feel the unpleasantness of the pain of being beaten. They only feel the pain of losing exp on death. I'm doubtful that will change.

We must each begin the change ourselves. If beatings don't change the way your character looks at something, maybe you don't deserve the relative freebie of a beating. Maybe they should have killed you, dumped you somewhere unfindable and split your loot between them.

It always starts when a player decides that they're okay with losing for a while.

- Kiaring

Kiaring has hit the proverbial nail upon the head.

While I agree with most of what's been said here, about giving people a chance and avoiding killing unless it's really necessary et cetera, I can't agree with subdual kills.

If you subdual them, they're not dead. They're subdualed. Beating someone down and then telling them to *RP it as death* is no better than killing someone and then telling them to *RP it as life*. It makes zero sense. If you do want them dead, the game does provide rather effective mechanical support for such a state.

The main problem with "subdual kills" is that you're assuming without a second thought that the player would respawn once you've killed them. I thought respawning is strongly discouraged after a PvP death? Sometimes people are just supposed to stay dead. Like after you've assassinated them and dumped their body to some god-forsaken corner of the Underdark.

So, in conclusion, while killing should not be your first and only option to take care of a bothersome PC, when it does become necessary you shouldn't try to pretend that it didn't happen.

(Note: Freit, I realize you were talking of another server were respawning after death was apparently something everyone did without a second thought. So don't take this personally, this was more of a general rant now that the subject came up.)

Agreed, Anthee. To be honest, this idea of 'subdual killing' is one I have never even heard of, until this thread was made. What is the go with it? It doesn't make much sense at all to me. As Anthee said, if you want someone dead, kill them.

I did not read all the posts in the thread (simple because at the moment I am too tired to do so), but wanted to express how I feel about PvP nonetheless.

I dislike PvP ending to the death of a character. I think people really should learn to roleplay PvP better, also the victims. It should not be a competition, where the prize is who wins and gets to stay alive. It should be more like co-operation, where both parties would get something out of it. I can only emphasize the fact that the victim should also roleplay, not just think how to get away from it and how to get back to the one that attacked.

I suppose sometimes a death is inevitable. But still, even though how much the roleplay would demand it, I think ooc courtesy is in place. I would even go so far, that even if I would be playing a character that would kill someone outright in some situations, I would still consider every PvP situation oocly, because the main reason we play this game is to have fun, and I don't want to ruin the fun for another player.

What comes to plots, and them being hard to carry out because of PvP, I agree with Thrawn basicly. People end their characters in many other ways too, mostly probably, because they get tired with them. Though many characters seem to have been killed in PvP before they could have ended what they were doing, and this is of course difficult for other players who counted on such characters.

But how to change this, I don't really know. PvP raises emotions in people, and in the heat of a moment it is difficult to think clearly.

PvP runs a fine line between being enjoyable and possibly ruining a players enjoyment. Personally, I think that the amount of enjoyment one gains from the PvP is directly proportional to the amount of RP strife and conflict between the characters that occurs before the attack and the death. The longer it's drawn out the better in my book, and for the following reasons:

1. It's easy to kill: It is all to easy to kill someone in PvP with a little preparation. When it's so easy, where is the real challenge. This is an RP server and PvP important, but can more be done.

2. Longer conflicts create enemies: Yes a beating does little to invoke the fear of the Gods, but a beating can be a good start to conflict. It also allows the opposing team to talk about how bad ass you are and what a threat you might become. You have not only just involved more people and created more conflict perhaps than a death alone, you may just have that real true enemy on the server people keep talking about wanting to see more of.

3. Allows time to play: A well rp'd beating allows the opposing player to continue rping their character for a while longer. It creates a climax and crescendo to the conflict that when the PvP occurs, it's all that much better. It's no longer "yeah, Bane Darkheartdragonblade I died because I got mugged in a back ally", it's "Yeah, I died because my evil guy ended up in a turf war in lower sanctuary against a rival evil dude"

I admit there are drawbacks to this, some OOC and some IC. Players who get the beat down may go into the survival mode, buff up, and come and kill you because they know they don't want to be in the heat in the future.

And sometimes there are firm IC reasons to PvP to death and not have much conflict time, such as with an assassination. I would just offer to sit back and think out a plot you could weave out of the conflict you want, and make it that much more enjoyable for everyone. Evil especially I think, has that onus.

I agree with begger, though I'd stress that its very important for good aligned characters to see things the same ways.

Problems can arise where baron von dark heart kills somebody straight up and everybody decides "that sucks" but when Lightsword von Shiningheart smites him dead instantly in a reversed scenario nobody bats an eyelash.

I actually have a sort of memorized list of people who are fair when it comes to these things, people who are'nt very fair and people who I don't know about.

If I know they will act fairly I'll usually find a way to let them live.

If I don't know for sure I'll usually roleplay for a bit guage thier reaction and let them live.

If they've been unfair in the past regarding similiar issues I'll usually just kill them.

Naga kind of hit how I dealt with it as a player. Only other thing that put them on my kill list is that if they go around FDing people, then they went on my FD list as well.

What is FDing?

Another word for killing. "FD=Full Damage"

Personally I feel death should be last possible option one should think about. It ends a character in most cases, as respawning after a raise is a rarity, and players often get rid of the body in such a way no one will be able to recover it. I've noticed it more than once where people decide to kill someone after being offended, or humiliated, which shouldn't result in such a waste of characters IMO. As previously noted, people tend to "quit" their character after a Full Damage, but I feel that's mostly because they feel forced to, knowing any other option would seriously damage the one who killed him/her.

However, the typical stereotype Half-Orc or the psycho-Human seem to feel they "have" to kill someone after getting beaten at, or even mugged, which leaves the 'criminal' in a harsh position. "Risk my character's life, or expect a bit of compassion, since I've shown him such."

All and all, I think people should consider who they're dealing with. Is it someone who isn't known for solving everything with a one-way trip to the Fugue, than please, try and keep in mind that he's very much enjoying his character as well, for as long as he can.

Let me preface this by saying EfU has one of the best communities out there when it comes to serious roleplaying. Maybe I’m being naïve, but on EfU I’ve never had to worry about an action being interpreted as anything but IC.

I absolutely love the PVP rules here. The low level “cap” and lack of challenge ratings create uncertainty, which goes a long way toward facilitating realistic reactions between established characters and those fresh out of bondage.

That being said, I’ve all but stopped playing on this server because characters have the lifespan of fruit flies. While it’s possible to have a character survive the trials and tribulations of the Underdark for more than a few months, most don’t, and as a player it becomes next to impossible weave interesting plots when most of the participants disappear in the midst of them. That, and it’s no fun for me playing a character who’s constantly grieving the latest loved one to die. Perma-killing has unintended consequences that affect a lot of characters, not just those directly involved in the conflict.

I think pretty much everyone here is just agreeing with everyone else at this point.

FD'ing shouldn't be done except as a last resort.

So what can be done instead?

Maybe coming to an OOC agreement at the time of PvP, saying "If I let you live, are you going to powerlevel and come back and FD me in revenge?"

I think that's the sort of thing I'd do if I were in that situation, anyhow.

Instead of dealing with it OOC, which is typically a lousy workaround, why not find other ways of accomplishing your goals? Murder is passe. Everybody does it, its easy to do, blah blah blah. If you're playing a character with a modicum of intelligence, your character ought to consider other ways to deal with problems. Bribery, blackmail, coercion, threats, maybe? All that good stuff you read in those Drizzt books.

-Cross

I hate FD PVP. No really, I despise it. No matter how cool it looks like it’s going to shape out, it always seems to burn one of the players. Usually the dead one. This is in part due to the fact that we live in an environment where any and every character is one will save away from death.

I always try to get feedback after lethal PvP, and I have never once got a positive response. I'm just bad at making it interesting. Conversely I’ve been killed in PvP, and no one has ever made it fun for me, even when I bent over backwards to give them the space and time to make it so.

However, all that having been said, I hope the PvP rules or etiquette don't change. Even though the actual moment of death sucks proverbial, it is the potential for this death that makes every other living moment on the server so sharp, and so fresh. I have played two medium duration characters on this server. The first one was part of some awesome plots and character interactions, and was killed in PvP. The second one was also killed in PvP once, and beaten up half a dozen times. As the second character became enmeshed in a dizzying nightmare of player interactions and DM plots, I was very, very acutely aware that it could permanently end at any moment, and this gave playing him real zest.

I think the threat of real death makes all the characters more interesting, and more realistic. It is also much more fun, provided it hasn’t just happened to you.

I like a lot of what has been said here. A lack of fear seems to be the motivating force behind the lack of beatings/ clever antics vs just killing the guy and being done with it.

Have I seen this fear? Sure, but not on the level one ought to. I think it takes a talented player to lay aside the "must win at all costs" attitude and figure out they were beaten. Don't be afraid to do it, have fun with the RP..bust out your best Ah-nold voice and say "Ahl be bach". Build that rivalry and next time, if you have your adversary, remember that time he let you live...dangle the fact you have bested him in his face and stoke the fires. One day if it comes down to FD, don't cheapen it: Walk up to him, draw your [insert favored weapon here] and tell him his time has come.

I think an unmentioned variable here is the consensus that FD = the end of your character. -Were you- to stay the hell away after a beating I bet the death rate would see a dramatic decline. In fact if after you had been FDed multiple times...sometimes by the same character(s), were you to stay a way a while I bet the death rate would go down as well. If your character is harder to kill than a damn weed because you keep respawning after PvP you aren't going to get the same cosideration from some players as you will with others. In fact you'll just be more likely to be FDed because we know you'll be back anyway..why not minus a level to lessen your ability to be a pain?

all of you have really great points of view but i have to say that having people trying to hurt you, stalking you etc. etc. etc. is not fun at all! i have been in EFU for about two weeks, and it is my first server, i love my character, i am nice and i dont hurt people in any way, still i have one guy after me for no reason. the only reason i keep logging is because i have made good friends in here, but i have to say that if it wasnt for that i would never ever entered into any server again! that was a very bad experience for me really. my boyfriend told me it is a game and all but after the guy attacked me i was really scared i didnt even knew him! it is exiting seeing complots and all but maybe the bad guys should just be bad with more bad people that is why bad aligment was created, or with people that really deserved it. i havent done anything to anyone in this server and i have been attacked 3 times! what is that about? EFU is really great and i love NWN i have been playing it almost 2 years now, and i really have a lot of fun playing here but as soon as i see that guy the fun goes away and that i think its not very nice. i dont know maybe this RP thing is about killing other people but i think it would be nicer to just play and stop being bad to people that you dont even know. but anyway that is just my opinion thanks.

laura

How many real criminals prey on the innocent and weak who thy don't know? I think you may be taking whoever was attacking your character as an attack on you.

Maybe you said something inadvertently maybe you saw something you should'nt have or maybe you were in a deserted area where you would be an easy target to a mugging.

It could be any of these things. It varies from situation to situation. When in doubt ask a dm or the player of the character who attacked yours.

Laura's perspective on things really shows how excessive violence during PvP can turn away new players. Something everyone should take note of and take into consideration. Not everyone is hardcore.

I think Crosswind pretty much nailed it with this:

Crosswind Murder is passe. Everybody does it, its easy to do, blah blah blah. If you're playing a character with a modicum of intelligence, your character ought to consider other ways to deal with problems. Bribery, blackmail, coercion, threats, maybe? All that good stuff you read in those Drizzt books.

Lets all try to be creative and come up with more fun ways of keeping people on the edge of their seats. :)

colinpoh I think Crosswind pretty much nailed it with this:

Crosswind Murder is passe. Everybody does it, its easy to do, blah blah blah. If you're playing a character with a modicum of intelligence, your character ought to consider other ways to deal with problems. Bribery, blackmail, coercion, threats, maybe? All that good stuff you read in those Drizzt books.

Lets all try to be creative and come up with more fun ways of keeping people on the edge of their seats. :)

Yes and lets not run off and kill the people who are attempting to blackmail, threat, coerce, maybe? Would encorouge it to be done more

Someone's blackmailing you? Get dirt on them. Coercing you? Find something they care about. Wanting you trussed up? Get a group of mates together, beat him senseless, tattoo interesting words on his forehead (with a DM to alter his description) and then promise next time, it's his nuts and a pair of sissors (and a DM to change his voice to a female one).

You can do a lot before going FD.

all of you have really great points of view but i have to say that having people trying to hurt you, stalking you etc. etc. etc. is not fun at all!

I'm not sure who you play Laura (welcome to the server), but if you feel like you're being griefed (picked on for OOC reasons) then you should feel free to contact the DM team at escapefromunderdark@gmail.com If you're completely clueless about why you've been attacked, then it may well have been a situation of griefing and we as DMs are around to investigate things like that. It's worth noting that from time to time completely new players logon with a min maxed half-orc and run around trying to find someone low level to beat up on, situations like this are totally unacceptable and result in banning.

That being said, from your post I'm going to be honest here and say that this server may not be suitable for you. EfU is a gritty, conflict-based server. I do not want the characters or groups in the town to just get along and be nice to each other -- I do want the players to get along and be nice, but the stories that are being told in this server are entirely dependent upon interesting, flavorful RP conflict.

There are plenty of situations where FD (full damage kill) is completely appropriate. If your character warns another character of something multiple times to do something, and the other character doesn't even listen, then a FD may be appropriate. If you beat someone up, and they keep coming after you, a FD may be appropriate. If you know another character just killed an ally of your character, a FD may be appropriate. If you subdual someone, and they still threaten you, a FD may be appropriate. I could go on at great length about appropriate FD situations. However, I do think it is good to give other characters at least one chance in a nicely role-played subdual situation before you kill them.

Howland EfU is a gritty, conflict-based server. I do not want the characters or groups in the town to just get along and be nice to each other -- I do want the players to get along and be nice, but the stories that are being told in this server are entirely dependent upon interesting, flavorful RP conflict.

There are plenty of situations where FD (full damage kill) is completely appropriate.

I don't believe this has been mentioned in this thread (if it has, PM me + I'll delete this post, thereby saving us 0.000036% bandwidth), but Bad Guys have a responsibility on the server to make roleplay + conflict entertaining.

To that end, before engaging in conflict - anything from passe assassinations to subdual beat-downs to blackmail + all other assorted nastiness - spending a couple of hours stalking a potential mark can save us all hours + days of grief.

After a small time investment, it's easy enough to figure out if a player is OOCly up to the challenge of gritty conflict.

Granted, that might be a bit OOC for your character, but it's good sportsmanship. And it spares you from post-conflict tells like "omg y r u so meen?" + the agony of being metagamed.

Giving a player a couple of weeks to get used to the server can make the difference between a disgruntled player who leaves after a week of angst-ridden PvP + a player who learns to take risks in RP + contributes to the server's storytelling.

i know that EFU is confictive and have many problems with the drow and other grups and i am glad to have that kind of story for RP in it but that is one thing, the other is about people out of no were attacking other people in this case me, and i mean its ok in the game i supouse but you were talking about your points of view here so i thougt maybe i could do the same, and it is not like -oh i am special and nobody do anything to me. i was just saying that maybe the bad guys in the game should really have a acceptable reason IC for attacks dont you think? and maybe RP it right and let know the other person what is the problem. and by the way i wasnt alone when he attacked me i was with a lot of people.

thanks

laura

the other is about people out of no were attacking other people in this case me, and i mean its ok in the game i supouse but you were talking about your points of view here so i thougt maybe i could do the same, and it is not like -oh i am special and nobody do anything to me. i was just saying that maybe the bad guys in the game should really have a acceptable reason IC for attacks dont you think? and maybe RP it right and let know the other person what is the problem. and by the way i wasnt alone when he attacked me i was with a lot of people.

If someone attacks you out of nowhere for no real IC reason, you should contact a DM to investigate the possibility of griefing. Random attacks like that are quite clearly against the rules, and not a part of the desired RP-based conflict.

I believe i may have been one of the people who was there when she was randomly attcked for no reason but i think it was just some newbe who wanted to make a big a pain of themselves as possible. After all the charecter was called lady Death. Oh and Laurarocha if your the charecter i think you are i was the dwarf that magic missiled her off you.

oh really? thaks for helping me! for that wasnt the first time someone attacked me out of no were, the other two time ive been attacked by a guy one in front of many people too and the other alone trying to rest in the inn but i really dont want to make a really big deal about this i love EFU my character name is Galing and i am having a really good time she is getting married and all the only thing i was trying to say is that yes we need bad guys to make this exiting but try to find a good IC reason to be bad =) not just be a bad guy that attacks people that you dont even know but again just my opinion =)

thanks!

laura

Having played along side Galing I want to offer you are doing well. Please continue to enjoy yourself and don't get down becasue a player or two has not understood what this server is set up to be. I hope to see you stick around.

I second the Beggar. Stick around laura, and make sure you report possible griefings like Howland has said.

yeah a few of my charactors have spotted you around a few times but any way on to what i was building up on from reading from the start...

alright some one mentioned the Drizzt books. yeah there is some pretty sweet alternatives to permakills in them books. now i dont know if any one has read the cleric quintet by R.A Salvatore (if you dont know he also writes all the Drizzt based books aswell) in the cleric quintet (not saying what book or who is involved cause that would be spoiling it) there is a very very cool alternative using magical items a charactor was able to make a slave out of a very strong and good charactor and keep them enslaved out of fear and a sence of hopelessness now thats something that could be done given alot of OOC cooperation but to get the maximum fun out of it if any one decidces to RP that sort of thing dont start your charactors with that in mind it would be alot more rewarding for both. basically the good charactor was forced into doing evil deeds. there is alot of room for play and honestly if i saw a really inventive alternative to a perma death than they would get far greater respect from myself and depending on how it went my charactors aswell but yeah as everyone says try and keep it IC think about it as if you were that charactor you have no idea what the other person is going to say makes it alot more rewarding if it works. (the above example the attacker would have to take the first move)

Now i personaly dont have any problem with pvp as long as it is done for a good reason. However i am against it when its just random stabbings or trying to loot someone for there stuff. That just annoys me

true enough kale the downside is that theivery is a reasonable IC reason for PVP though yeah it sucks none the less

True but what i meant was the type of charecters people usually try to mug it just seams a bit odd that a small halfling rogue would go for a 6 foot tall,built like a tank half ork barbarian but they do why? because Ooc they now that half orc is only lvl 4 whilst the rogue is lvl7. thats what i mean.

Dilandau Kale because Ooc they now that half orc is only lvl 4 whilst the rogue is lvl7. thats what i mean.

No they don't. This was fixed in 1.67.

If you see it happen, more likely than not, the halfling is that ballsy.

Or that halfling checks the player list when he logs in.... or is able to equate armor quality with the players rough level, which also is usually correct.

Thats what i basically meant

This is kind of beating a dead horse now.

Should people use PvP less, and resort to more clever, fun ways to do stuff? Sure.

Is it likely to happen? Maybe the PvP will staunch a bit, but it will pick up again, and then drop off again, as it always does.

The bottom line is that PvP means someone loses. Most people don't like to lose. When you do lose, just suck it up and be a good sport. If someone FDs you, they typically have a decent reason. It's not fun to lose and die, but sometimes you just have to do it. Asking people to pull their punches is cool, but it's not likely going to happen.

If someone is FDing you for no reason, it's griefing, and you can talk to a DM about it.

As for metagaming the player list, big deal. The person who attacks first typically wins, regardless of level imbalance. If someone else is metagaming other stuff to smack down your character, talk to a DM.

In short-yes, it sucks to lose. But sometimes you just have to suck it up. PvP is not fun for the losing party. It's not mean to be. Hopefully the RP you had with the character before that was, though, and hopefully future RP, either with the same character, or with a new character, will be.

After all, if you never lost, would winning really be anything special?

I agree with Dilanduau kale, if theres good reason for Pvp thens its fun for both sides.

A few days ago, i played my half-orc barberian, he was approched by some drunk who pretty much just came up and started a fight, despite winning the event wasn't particulerly enjoyful.

An attempted assasination on Kaddaz though in his room, despite having the crap kicked out my character, I thought the PvP was brilliant.

The difference between the two is, one was a simple brawl started from an over-active drunk while the other was a planned attempt at murder, one has more reason to happen than the other, and thats whats makes it better.

Appears we all pretty much agree on being more creative in PvP and are just rehashing what has been said earlier.

*cues the DM*

This may be slightly off the topic but another thing that slightly annoys me is the way that the ones running about muggibg try to justify what theyve done as okay. An example of this is what happend to my dwarf quite a while back where he was jumped and beaten unconcious in the sewers where the person who did it told me it was okay because he dident kill me which may well be true but the if the rats in the sewers had come across my guy then he would be dead. Another thing is intentionaly going on a quest to mug someone that annoys me as well because your essentially beating the guy up tacking his stuff and leaving him for dead hell youd be just as well finishing him yourself. Sorry if this seems like a bit of a rant but i wanted to get that off my chest.

colinpoh Appears we all pretty much agree on being more creative in PvP and are just rehashing what has been said earlier.

*cues the DM*

Creativity is awesome.