I dont think it's reasonable for a character to be able to rest once in every 40 minutes. Personally, I don't see why this restriction has been implimented at all. It's not like there's some awful crafting system that tracks progress by the amount of times you've rested. What if you forgot to memorize a spell critical to the success of the mission that you're about to undertake, now you're going to have to wait to fix that mistake and for 40 minutes none the less! I don't think said mages will be too popular with parties. This unneeded restriction frustrates gameplay more than adds to it. Please don't tell me it's there to stop powergaming, because it would be a prime example of building a server to stop lamers instead of building one to promote the enjoyment of RPers.

I concur!

Dash I concur!

If resting restrictions are removed, then healing should no longer happen when resting, since I believe that healing is intended to represent a full day's slow recuperation.

Although I agree, nothing would prevent a priest from praying for spells or a wizard from memorizing them more than once every eight hours.

Sturmer What if you forgot to memorize a spell critical to the success of the mission that you're about to undertake?

Removing restrictions would also give faction members unlimited healing and spell recuperation.

Roll with it, that's half the fun.

Removing restrictions would also give faction members unlimited healing and spell recuperation.

You'll be rolling in the fugue if you forget the death wards against something that has death gaze/rays.

The length of time between rests will be considered, since an hour in game is five minutes of real time, and adjusted as felt appropriate. However, unlimited resting will most likely not be implemented on the server.

I agree that that 8 hours (with 5 minutes per hour) is too long. I completely disagree that we should remove the restrictions altogether.

Going with imperfect spells can make a quest a lot more fun.

I'd say 5 hours (25 minutes) would be about right for resting restrictions.

Without a resting-based crafting system, I'm uncertain why anything more than a token five/ten minute restriction (to prevent unlimited rapid healing) is really necessary. I may be missing something, though. :)

Here here arkov! I support the five minute resting period!

I agree that 40 minutes to rest is too much, but so is unlimited rest.

I believe that spellcasters should expect the unexpected when they memorize their spells, and memorize a generic set of spells for every situation, changing slightly when they know beforehand what they will be facing, like bless weapon when they will go somewhere they KNOW there is undead.

Some players tend to metagame what they will be facing and memorize spells accordingly. This happened 90% of the time on Arabel, intentionally or not (best example being memorizing death wards for pilgrims quest).

However, with rest limitation or not, this doesn't prevent that. They always wait for rest to memorize the 'right' spells, or by the time they finish a scripted quest, they can already rest again anyway.

That's one of the reasons I don't like scripted quests much, DM quests are much more fun as they are unpredictable and it's impossible to metagame what you will encounter.

That said, I believe that 10-20 minutes per rest should be enough. That would compensate the fact that you don't actually spend 8 hours memorizing spells (the wait would be enough to make about enough time dependant mission to be "too late"), and the unlimited source of healing.

I concur with Arkov.

I have a slightly side suggestion with resting too which is currently driving me nuts as it's costing me a fortune.

On server up, any chance we can have full spells. Not after relog, or so, but after a server up. This means...

When im on a DM quest in this instance, I rest prior to going on it. Then I use three of my buffs on the quest. Server crash. I am still 3 buffs down from spell loss script and am due to return to the quest. 10gp.

It's happened twice so far and is proving to be quite costly :-/. I can't think how this is a particular negative in relation to resting, and saves everyone logging on and dashing to the inns for spells.

Some players tend to metagame what they will be facing and memorize spells accordingly. This happened 90% of the time on Arabel, intentionally or not (best example being memorizing death wards for pilgrims quest).

That's actually not a good example at all, because it's a perfect example of a poorly designed quest. That brings me to a fundamental rule of quests (and D&D overall): Always make sure the PCs have a chance to succeed or flee. The quest in question made no mention of creatures that kill with a simply gaze, which would usually result in a TPK (total party kill). Even if you did scout ahead, spotted, and then passed an obscure lore check to know what the creature was there was no way to add a cleric to your party. As a player on CoA since early V2, I've seen this actually happen on a few occasion. A party that's never experienced the quest before attempted it, and TPK'ed. A second rescue party (of veterans) was created to go revive them.

Scouting ahead and identifying such creatures is exactly why there shouldn't be a lengthy rest timer. Let's say you've rested and selected your spells, but chose only one deathward. Then you proceed to the quest and your scout comes back with reports of creatures with a death attack. How long are you to wait before you can rest to rememorize your spells? 40 minutes? 25? 10? I think 5 is just about right as you've probably taken that long to get to the quest and discover the creatures.

Yeah, 40 minutes seems too much.

Resting restrictions are a good thing.

25 mins sounds better than 40 mins, but it makes little difference to me.

Sturmer How long are you to wait before you can rest to rememorize your spells? 40 minutes? 25? 10? I think 5 is just about right as you've probably taken that long to get to the quest and discover the creatures.

If it's desired, there could be a way to dettach memorizing spells from resting, allowing wizards to change their spell selection without actually sleeping, and doing it anytime they want. But I think that'd just kill one of their few flaws.

Then again it's a game, and making things really annoying typically doesn't keep people attached to it.

I know I'm not going to wait 40 minutes to rest, and I'm not going to wait 25 minutes either, just my opinion :)

If resting restrictions are removed, then healing should no longer happen when resting, since I believe that healing is intended to represent a full day's slow recuperation.

You can get healing for cheaper then the inn's price and better then the inn rest in certain places, so I disagree. People rest to cure disease, prepare spells or just for whatever other reason.

I also support a 5 minute wait, but more then 15 minutes and I'd say it's more of a nuisance.

I'd be happy with 20-25, if it's too low, people eventually will quest rest. I.e. do some quest, run off, rest, come back, rinse, repeat. I Despise that.

My only and fairly minor concern is that when the server goes "live", a rest timer as short as 25 minutes will HEAVILY balance the server, towards clerics.

Now *I*don't give a rats ass about class equality heh, classes are not equal nor are they meant to be, and the solution in PnP is if someone is a power gaming tweaker, you punish them IC.

But a rest timer that short may result in many people being clerics so they can power game to their hearts content.

I've been playing a spellcaster and I've not really seen rest times as a problem. Currently we can rest every fourty minutes. If a quest was so easy that you blew through it in under that ammount of time then you probally did not need to use all your spells. I've even strung a few quests togeather without resting, allways trying to ration my spells untill they were -really- needed.

I'd say that they could stand to be a little bit shorter. Thirty minutes maby. Any less and your characters can begin using their powerful defensive spells around the clock and have no real periods of weakness. I can just imagine spying on people with invis and being able to go quickly for a rest and then come back every five minutes. Or the futility of trying to spy while invisible because everyone can have true seeing up nearly all the time. When they want to quest, they just rest and get there questing spells. It would just be too much.

I was also under the impression that clerics could only pray for there spells once per day. I allways thought there was similer limitations on wizards and other spellcasting classes.

As a fellow spellcaster I must agree with LaBrea. What with our overwhelming intelligence this hasn't popped up as a problem for us. I've even gone through a whole 5-6hour playsession without resting, only one rest when I joined the server. You just have to pay some fools to fight for you, hang in the back and shout profanities at them for not fighting well enough.

Then when they turn around to beat you up for being a jerk, it's time to use those spells.

So, generally speaking. You shouldn't have to cast alot of spells if you choose your companions wisely which a high-intelligence character should be doing anyways and thus I see no need to minimize the time needed to rest. :)

Just my 2 cents.

The suggestion isn't about resting multiple times to complete the same quest. It's about the possibility of selecting the right spells for the quest. Personally, I don't think that's a problem, but I could see a reason for halving down the time between rests.

DruQks You just have to pay some fools to fight for you, hang in the back and shout profanities at them for not fighting well enough.

Wonder who that came from. :P

This is perhaps the most important point to this discussion:

Then again it's a game, and making things really annoying typically doesn't keep people attached to it.

I know I'm not going to wait 40 minutes to rest, and I'm not going to wait 25 minutes either, just my opinion

I completely agree with him.

A long resting period also gives non-spellcasters far too great of an advantage when it comes to PvP. All a potential assassin has to do is wait until a spellcaster returns from a quest, then they know they have a great deal of time in which they can strike and the spellcaster will be as harmful as a level 1 commoner. Now, I am not one for balancing out the classes, but this is far to great of an embalance to be ignored.

To those who bring up the PnP resting time comparison, I have to remind you that NWN is far different from PnP. Combat in NWN is about four times as frequent as combat in a typical PnP session, requiring more frequent resting. Also, you can not simply advance time 8 hours as you can in a PnP session.

LaBrea ...characters can begin using their powerful defensive spells around the clock and have no real periods of weakness. I can just imagine spying on people with invis and being able to go quickly for a rest and then come back every five minutes. Or the futility of trying to spy while invisible because everyone can have true seeing up nearly all the time.

This is a very important point. With less resting restrictions, spellcasting characters could have defensive spells active all of the time, removing the biggest weakness of some of the strongest classes, and the most important tool of the Spanish Inquisition: The element of surprise.

Thank you all for your input.

I am in agreement that the resting restriction is at present too long.

As others pointed out, the biggest reason to have a semi-substantial rest restriction (25-30 minutes) is not because of quests but because of the PvP and spying/anti-spying dynamic. If you want to go around with permanent buffs on your character, you should take extend spell and sacrifice some flexibility if something comes up.

I, and the other DMs, have played lots of spellcasters and non-spellcasters and you'll just have to trust that we know what we're talking about when it comes to appropriate class balance.

Sassy Storm is a very important point. With less resting restrictions, spellcasting characters could have defensive spells active all of the time, removing the biggest weakness of some of the strongest classes, and the most important tool of the Spanish Inquisition: The element of surprise.

One thing to keep in mind here might be the setting. This is only my personal interpretion on the matter, but if a Spellguard noticed a mage with more magical protections than commander Simms himself, he'd probably do something about it. I am not sure wether or not "pre-cast" magic (i.e. stuff that lingers, protections) would be of any danger to the city, but on the other hand, he might not know either and take the safe route.

Sturmer A long resting period also gives non-spellcasters far too great of an advantage when it comes to PvP. All a potential assassin has to do is wait until a spellcaster returns from a quest, then they know they have a great deal of time in which they can strike and the spellcaster will be as harmful as a level 1 commoner.

I can understand this concern. This is sortuv addressed on the Info for New Players forum, where:

Some guy Try to avoid engaging in PvP when you have a substantial level advantage over the other character. Although there are exceptions to every rule, you should always put the story and fun for all involved over your own personal success.

So would waiting to assassinate a spellcaster when you know, OOCly, that they're out of spells be considered unsportsmanlike or metagaming?

I ask, because while I can see my hypothetical assassin PC figuring out how to kill a spellcaster with minimal harm to self, "I'll kill her when she just gets back from quest #221" wouldn't be a plan.

This is because my spellcasting PCs on other servers have always been attacked / killed when fully rested and capable of self-defense. - I've taken this kind of assassinating to be the gold standard.

So... What's the verdict?

Resting restriction will be reduced to five IG hours (25 RL minutes).

As for this -

So would waiting to assassinate a spellcaster when you know, OOCly, that they're out of spells be considered unsportsmanlike or metagaming?

I ask, because while I can see my hypothetical assassin PC figuring out how to kill a spellcaster with minimal harm to self, "I'll kill her when she just gets back from quest #221" wouldn't be a plan.

This is because my spellcasting PCs on other servers have always been attacked / killed when fully rested and capable of self-defense. - I've taken this kind of assassinating to be the gold standard.

No, no, no. By all means, target a spellcaster at their moment of weakness. Catch them sleeping in the inn. Catch them alone coming back from somewhere dangerous. Find them in that dark alley or out in the wild. Play as many IC dirty tricks as you like -- hire help, frame people, attack from invisibility or stealth. So long as it's IC, it's splendid and fully encouraged. When you start using OOC dirty tricks (sending dishonest tells, intentionally catching people when they're AFK, etc.) that's when we'll get angry. But, for goodness sake, PvP on EfU is not arena PvP. Unless it's IC for you want to impose those kinds of rules (honorable assassin who always gives his target a chance, etc.) Such distinctions are IC though, and not OOC.

As others pointed out, the biggest reason to have a semi-substantial rest restriction (25-30 minutes) is not because of quests but because of the PvP and spying/anti-spying dynamic. If you want to go around with permanent buffs on your character, you should take extend spell and sacrifice some flexibility if something comes up.

I, and the other DMs, have played lots of spellcasters and non-spellcasters and you'll just have to trust that we know what we're talking about when it comes to appropriate class balance.

I'm not sure how this balances the classes. Let us take for example the strongest and weakest classes and see what effect some extended buffs have on them.

Strongest class: High level mage (12 and up) Effect: None at all really, using a few third level spell slots to memorize a few extra extend spells really doesn't hinder a high level caster as they have so many spells. Also, let us not forget that as a caster increases in level, so does the duration of his "buffs." I played a level 15 sorcerer on a server similiar to this for close to 8 months. Believe me when I say he could easily transcend a 25-30 minute period with his usual "buffs" (invis, true sight, and lesser mind blank) with out having any significant impact on his lethality (and those PCs who encountered Vorodor could testify to this).

Weakest class: Low-mid level mage (10 and under) Firstly, a low level mage can't even extend invisibility and see invis. A mid level mage on the other hand can extend them, but it costs them an arm and a leg to do so, sacraficing their more powerful spells.

This attempt to balance the classes has no real effect on the strongest class, but greatly hinders the weakest class.

Now let me use a recent example of how the resting restrictiong greatly hindered my PC (and the group). My PC rested, then went out with a few of her most trusted companions to explore and try some rothe hunting (rothe hunting not being something she would typically do, but she was curious as she's never witnessed this first hand). As they were out beyond the gates, the group heard a message about a lizard attacking the town. The group ran back and fought the lizard. Being a low level wizard she of course spent most of her spells during the battle. Immediately after the battle a npc asked the PCs to go on a mission (a DM quest). My PC tried to go rest, but couldn't because of the restrictions. So, she had to go on the quest with absolutely no spells. The end result of a situation like this is having an XP sponge along with the group instead of someone who actually contributes. It's also exceedingly dangerous to undertake such tasks without the ability to escape or defend one's self.

I had to break your balls, and stuff, but you're just not right on the weakest/strongest class thing. =/ As I have frisbee golfing and stuffing my face to do, I don't really have the time to do this old, boring debate.

I never saw resting restrictions are real ones, anyhow - it's not like you're running around casting tons of spells in-between "active periods" (quests, PVP, etc), each of which will last easily for longer than 25 minutes. What's the beef?

-Cross

I had to break your balls, and stuff, but you're just not right on the weakest/strongest class thing. =/

I suppose this is rather subjective and a matter of personal opinion. I'm sure you'll find many who agree with my assessments.

I never saw resting restrictions are real ones, anyhow - it's not like you're running around casting tons of spells in-between "active periods" (quests, PVP, etc), each of which will last easily for longer than 25 minutes. What's the beef?

Didn't my example convey a real non-hypothetical situation in which the resting restrcition was a rather annoying hinderance?

I think all mages should be given an insta-kill ability, similiar to what DMs get. Crosswind, I'll be waiting in my quarters for you to wand me with it.

Let's not turn this into a "Which cla$$ oWnZ0rz dA Ub3rst" - Thread. We were doing so well.

Resting restrictions limits power gaming and as such should be welcomed in a roleplaying environment.

It's true that 25 mins RR don't really limit a high lvl mage too much, but a 40 mins limit don't either. And the 25 Mins are much kinder on the lowbie than the 40 mins..

I think all mages should be given an insta-kill ability, similiar to what DMs get. Crosswind, I'll be waiting in my quarters for you to wand me with it.

I fail to see how this adds any suggestions, points, or counter points to this discussion. Perhaps I am missing something?

And yes Ibeholder, I do not wish to get into a "which class is the best" arguement. Perhaps I was a bit extreme while submitting my examples. I should rephrase to "one of the strongest classes," and "one of the weakest classes." I am glad you agree to the message in the example however, it won't really effect one of the most powerful classes.

If you play a wizard that exclusively prepares direct damage spells (frost ray, magic missile, etc.) you will likely burn through your spells quickly and may be frustrated with the level of contribution you give to your group. My personal preference for quest design is for challenges that can only easily be vanquished by cooperation between all members of a party. Instead of a single shot of 2d4+2 magic damage to a single target, a wizard could choose to prepare a magic weapon spell that will allow the fighter to easily cut through a monster's Damage Reduction. Buff spells like Protection from Evil or Bull's Strength have long durations and likewise should often last your party through a whole adventure. I've DMed some of our quests where I've really struggled to help the party stay alive (reducing monster strength on the fly, being merciful with my spell-casting, etc.) -- and I know that the party would have had a much easier time if a single one of the three mages had prepared a magic weapon spell instead of magic missile. At least one quest giver does in fact say "rat-men," and with any reasonable lore a character should know that lycanthropes are highly resistant to non-magical blades.

Please don't misunderstand, it is entirely up to the player to choose what spells their wizards prefers and will prepare. Furthermore, although I like and design quests that are challenging and reward cooperation between party members, if you succeed in completing a quest with an all bard party that uses nothing but throwing knives and bad poetry to kill the ogres -- more power to you.

However, a limited amount of spells available to spell-casters (high level, mid level, and low level) is a fundamental and essential aspect to NWN and how I think magic should work on this server. Despite this limitation, my point is that a wizard (if he or she so chooses) can easily prepare spells that will be a major asset to a party throughout a very long period of time. And I won't even get into the issue of supplies (wands, scrolls, potions, etc.) that I also view as a big part of wizarding.

When we reduce the resting restriction to a more reasonable amount of time (25 minutes) I suspect most of these concerns will evaporate, as 25 minutes really isn't all that long of a time.

And back from frisbee and more food preparation, I return with:

Resting restrictions limits power gaming and as such should be welcomed in a roleplaying environment.

As soon as you start implementing rules changes to hinder somebody's play, you're going about things the wrong way.

Now, regarding your example, it takes 25 minutes between rests, and you went and fought a town-threatening lizard for what, 10 minutes maybe? You came back into town, with your (12? 15? 18?) hit points, and were like "I just spent all my spells in 2 minutes of intense PvL (Player...Versus...LIZARD) combat!". And your pals were like "Let's go do this quest!"

Your mage, understandably, went "I'm a bit tired, can you give me a few moments to study?", whereupon your friends waited 15 minutes for you at a local tavern.

I believe that class mechanics do have some effect on RP - wizards are very powerful, but take some time to recover their spells. I don't see what purpose would be served by allowing constant resting, aside from de-emphasizing what is an integral part of a spellcasting character, that of "I'm tired and out of spells. Phew! I have to rest!".

-Cross

I prefer not to rest jumping from one quest to another, though I prefer not to do that either. I do it sometimes anyway but try not to. Spells on login will save quite a bit of "speed resting", which tends to be, you log in, rp, end up on a quest and then go "shit, i need some spells". Which I'll admit, I do speedrest sometimes in login-no-spells-quest situations but I prefer to think of it as mildly, ooc.

I know arkov is changing it anyway so I'm happy.

I think Sturmer just prefers action servers where his character can rock the house and then go rest and come back to do it.

Take those extra minutes and just roleplay the exhaustion. Pull out a crossbow. Take a level of fighter. Log out. There are a ton of options and its almost silly to complain about.

For every player who thinks the restriction is too harsh, you'll find one that disagrees. 25 minutes is likely a good spot, perhaps even short by five minutes from what I'd like to see and I love playing wizards.

As for "balance" you're in the wrong game entirely for balance. DnD isn't balanced between classes, its not meant to be. Its not Civilization where there is a counter to everything, and it was never designed to be like that.

Its a game of cooperation, its a game where you have to cleverly overcome weaknesses of your character. Its a game about portraying a person who has limitations, restrictions, and isn't a god-like alter ego.

So I'm more than thrilled with the situation as it is and think this is turning into a moot argument about "my character isn't rocking the server as well as I'd like it to--so please change this server to fit my character and make him cooler".

If you want to play a character that lasts an entire quest and deals as much damage at the start as in the end, play a fighter. If you want a character that has to carefully regulate his abilities and use them at only the opprotune moments or risk being relegated to nothing more than a spectator until he can "reload" play a wizard. Its all in what you choose to play and how you choose to play it.

Thank you all for your comments and feedback on this topic. Resting restrictions have been reduced to 25 minutes (five game hours) and this should be in effect as soon as the server is next up.

So I'm more than thrilled with the situation as it is and think this is turning into a moot argument about "my character isn't rocking the server as well as I'd like it to--so please change this server to fit my character and make him cooler".

It's amazing to see that some people never change. Moloch was the reason I (along with scores of others - PM if you're interested in stories) left a similiar server, lets not make it this one as well. Do you think it is possible to respond to a post without using the elitist attitude you so frequently used in the past: "omg stfu you stupid noob powergamer, I r awesome rper and know best!" If you even played with my character more than 30 minutes you would know she is not even close to what you describe.

The reasons I want the RR lessened are quite numerous and have been clearly stated. First and for most, I've worked on two servers that have tried to impliment such restrictions, and they frequently have 0/0 players playing. I'm not saying that this is likely on this server, but it's sure fire way to get there. As crosswind agreed with me:

As soon as you start implementing rules changes to hinder somebody's play, you're going about things the wrong way.

The most imprtant reason why I want the restrictions lessened:

Then again it's a game, and making things really annoying typically doesn't keep people attached to it.

I know I'm not going to wait 40 minutes to rest, and I'm not going to wait 25 minutes either, just my opinion Smile

There's a lot of truth in that statement. People won't play if things get to annoying and restrictive.

Arkov Thank you all for your comments and feedback on this topic. Resting restrictions have been reduced to 25 minutes (five game hours) and this should be in effect as soon as the server is next up.

As a reminder, these forums are not a place to express personal displeasures or grievances with another player. Furthermore, they are not a place to discuss other servers or their dungeon masters.

This thread was beginning to get out of hand, but if anyone is still concerned about this issue I am prepared to discuss it over IRC.

The fact of the matter is, there is a limitation to how much magic a spellcaster should be casting every 25 minutes.

Consider a druid or cleric with tinder and oil going through the wilderness, resting after each confrontation. A wizard defending the front gate spamming isaac's missile storm on the enemies, running back inside to rest, running back out. The absence of resting requirements can easily change the challenge of playing a spell-caster into something more akin to a diablo sorceress.