Most Escape from Underdark players do not need to hear this, but I've run into this problem enough times that, for the few who do, I submit a gentle reminder:

Death is bad.

Death means the end. It is a door slamming shut, forever. It is a permanent parting of ways. It is the cause of much agony, sadness, and grief. And as if the in-character reasons weren't enough to convince you that death is bad, Escape from Underdark provides one of the most severe respawn penalties on the internet short of full permadeath, and mark you well! Permadeath can and does occur on EfU.

Death is something to be avoided at all costs. Literally, at all costs, because there is no reward in the game that outweighs the jeopardy of your entire inventory, the loss of one third of your experience, and possibly even the total loss of a character.

It therefore stands to reason that if you do something dangerously foolish, like oh, I don't know, run into a room where the mobs outnumber your party ten to one and proceed to hack away at the nearest enemy, that you will be treated, in character, like a dangerous fool. Through the agency of your character, you, as a player, just put the lives of all of your comrades in jeopardy, for absolutely no reason other than to satisfy your itching trigger finger.

Every character has a will to live. This is not mitigated by a low wisdom score, a low intelligence, or an evil disposition. Even the most reckless barbarian or foolhardy paladin will not attack an enemy just because it's there. The same thing that stops you from walking in front of an oncoming truck should keep your characters from attacking everything in sight. It stretches the imagination to the breaking point to consider that a character so foolish and suicidal would have ever made it to Sanctuary in the first place.

In other words, this isn't like any other NWN server where you can just walk around and hack away at anything that is marked as an enemy. If you approach EfU in that way, you run the risk of ruining the game experience of other players, not to mention getting their characters killed in the process. Not only that, but you are cheating yourself out of one of the most challenging, immersive, and engaging NWN experiences out there.

You don't have to be a griefer in order to cause grief. Please, consider the safety of your fellow gamers' characters, not to mention your own, role-play death as if it really meant something, and don't be a Leeroy Jenkins.

Hear hear.

While some of your points are generalizations, and generalizations are almost never completely correct - I'm inclined to agree with them.

What's with people who are immune to pain and death? This is especially annoying in the Watch, you wouldn't believe how many people we arrest who completely refuse to divulge any information on threat of pain and death. Have you ever been whipped or hit with a sword in real life? Can you at least imagine what it feels like? Your character is feeling that, repeatedly! I can understand getting used to it to some degree, but it still will cause pain, having flesh torn from muscles and muscles from bone, or worse, limbs nearly chopped off.

Those hook horrors aren't poking you with needles, they're trying to murder you with limbs designed explicitly for causing pain and death.

Think about it, the bravest man in the world can be unafraid of death, but I bet he wouldn't measure up in the slightest faced with an aberrant monster that defies the very laws of nature.

>.> EfU should have sanity rules. <.<

Halflings are fearless. Paladins have an Aura of courage. Barbarians Rage. They are adventurers trying their fortunes by steel and fate. They are new to the underdark, they don't know if a deep lizard is just an overgrown slug or a house of pain. There's no magical challenge rating you can look up.

They are heroes who gamble with any odds because they seek the chalice of awesome.

Courage counts, roll initative, lead the charge you bold and brave player's of Efu.

Edited at Howland's request, i'll try to be a bit more curt with this post

Death means the end. It is a door slamming shut, forever. It is a permanent parting of ways. It is the cause of much agony, sadness, and grief. And as if the in-character reasons weren't enough to convince you that death is bad, Escape from Underdark provides one of the most severe respawn penalties on the internet short of full permadeath, and mark you well! Permadeath can and does occur on EfU.

Death and permadeath -are- a bit part of EfU, and I like this. It encourages people to not get too attached OOC to their characters and to unrderstand when it is a good time in their story for them to end.

Death is something to be avoided at all costs. Literally, at all costs, because there is no reward in the game that outweighs the jeopardy of your entire inventory, the loss of one third of your experience, and possibly even the total loss of a character.

There are plenty of rewards. Let's take some examples:

1. Paladin A, B and C standing fiercly and stalewart against the invading Orog hoards set to rape, murder, pillage. Paladin A, B and C all die, but they all stick to character and i'd say if I were one of their players I would think such a thing an awesome death.

2. Barbarian A rushing recklessly against any enemy he encounters. So very devout in his belief that his crazy barbarian god will protect him. He puts other characters in jeopardy by doing this, but deals with their disdain for him IC and is frequently shunned until one day he picks on something far too big for him. Yet he stuck to character, and had a relativly enjoyable death

It therefore stands to reason that if you do something dangerously foolish, like oh, I don't know, run into a room where the mobs outnumber your party ten to one and proceed to hack away at the nearest enemy, that you will be treated, in character, like a dangerous fool. Through the agency of your character, you, as a player, just put the lives of all of your comrades in jeopardy, for absolutely no reason other than to satisfy your itching trigger finger.

Perhaps that room contained some monsters that a certain character holds a murderous hate against, who evoke such a rage that they -do- rush ahead, perhaps they do put other people in jeopardy. Perhaps it's simply in their character to be so very fearless and devout. What they do -not- do is do these things just to satisfy some OOC desire for a slash fest. If they want that, they'd go play an action server. If they are treated IC like a dangerous fool, this is fine. So long as these feelings don't spill OOC.

Every character has a will to live. This is not mitigated by a low wisdom score, a low intelligence, or an evil disposition. Even the most reckless barbarian or foolhardy paladin will not attack an enemy just because it's there. The same thing that stops you from walking in front of an oncoming truck should keep your characters from attacking everything in sight. It stretches the imagination to the breaking point to consider that a character so foolish and suicidal would have ever made it to Sanctuary in the first place.

Why are you telling us how to play our characters? With all due respect, perhaps that reckless barbarian or foolhardy paladin WOULD attack an evil enemy just because it is there. Perhaps they will die, perhaps they put your character in danger as well. Yet, I imagine, it is the only way they will learn from their mistakes. I think you should stop finding reasons to OOC condemn others and instead work IC to solve issues like these as they come up.

In other words, this isn't like any other NWN server where you can just walk around and hack away at anything that is marked as an enemy. If you approach EfU in that way, you run the risk of ruining the game experience of other players, not to mention getting their characters killed in the process. Not only that, but you are cheating yourself out of one of the most challenging, immersive, and engaging NWN experiences out there.

They are ruining nothing. They are going to produce a lot of conflict with their own party if they put them in danger, which could lead to some enjoyable RP. Perhaps they get your best friend killed in their rushing and mindless killing. Perhaps this leads to some interesting, charged situations. They're there to play a character. You don't like that character, deal with it IC, or avoid them IC. Don't complain OOC that they ruin your experience.

You don't have to be a griefer in order to cause grief. Please, consider the safety of your fellow gamers' characters, not to mention your own, role-play death as if it really meant something, and don't be a Leeroy Jenkins.

To call this griefing is, I would say, border line insulting to a lot of characters. I've personally played a character like you've described. Utterly fearless, who refused to back down. It eventually led to that characters death, and a thouroughly enjoyed it. I would hope that others enjoyed him as well. What I would not hope is that I was griefing the server population by playing this character.

An interesting read, and while I do agree with some of the comments you made, I think it'd be boring if everyone played high wisdom, high intelligence characters who thought every situation through thoroughly. Carefully laying out plans is well and good, but honestly, different and interesting characters is what keeps this place going! I like to see brave characters crashing through the chaos of overwhelming odds and come out living. Maybe I'm a quest masochist. . . Anyhow!

Treat IC situations with IC punishments (like the situation you seemingly have presented) and a terrific, and likely fierce character rivalry looks as if it's entirely plausible in game.

Treating death seriously is important. Staying IC to your character is also important.

What's even more important is maintaining a sense of OOC courtesy with your fellow players. I've no idea what this is about but if there's an issue work it out privately or contact the DMs.

The discussion can continue, I would request that references to a specific incident be edited out and any further discussion on the thread stay on topic and not resort to discussion about specific incidents or the RP of other players. Otherwise we had probably better lock the thread.

I would like to offer up another opinion here on Death in DnD and EFU.

One of the hardest things about playing a Role Play game of any type is to shed the preconceptions we are brought up with in the Real World - here Death is a one way ticket - in DnD it can and in a lot of cases is a temporary state.

With at least two places in Sanctuary that can raise the dead for a sum of gold - the biggest fear should not be death itself but death in a place or a way that means the body cannot be recovered and so the friend or loved one cannot come back.

I once saw Ando, I think it was Ando, strolling towards the Hold whistling carrying the body of a friend and I thought to myself that is the attitude that a seasoned adventurer should have - a friend has fallen but we'll get you back.

Just a different perspective.

I admire RP [pauses for effect] ...Good RP. I have witnessed crazed characters who have endangered the group because it was IC. I have witnessed a chaotic tiefling who would endanger the party, drifting into the shadows and watching...and waiting. She was deadly and efficient, and admirable for doing what she did with such skill and grace. I have watched evil strike at the most inopportune of moments, cutting down a hated foe while the battle continued all about them, heedless of the danger, focused only on the task at hand. I have watched a paladin scream his last warcry as he hurled himself into a battle he would never return from, falling a hero rather than watch a coward.

We do what we do IC for a reason, be it fool, hero, villain or something else not readily apparent. I hear what you are saying and at times have felt your pain, but never forget there can be 39 other ideas on that server at any given moment. Not all we will see eye to eye with. So...in the words of many a wise adventurer, carry an invis..or five, a few of retreat and a sharp watch on your way out. ;)

My last character was a cleric of Garagos, with decent Wisdom. One of the tenets of being a Garagosian is that you never run from battle, and indeed place yourself in the middle of it and go crazy with bloodlust and slaughter. I tried to play him as epitomizing the tenets of his god and faith, which were very important to him (obviously). Despite his 15 or 16 Wisdom, he would *always* engage in battle as soon as it was offered or known of, regardless of the risk. In this way he embodied what his god teaches: to fight with fury, never run, and always trust in Garagos as you do so.

There were *numerous* occasions where this got both him, and people in his party killed. People who would have lived if he didnt charge in. But charging in was the most, no, the only, IC thing for him to do.

When this happened the first few times, I felt OOC really bad. To compensate, ICly, when he travelled with new people, he would tell them things like "There will be no running from battle, be assured of that. If you do, you'll die by my own hand. Now, to the slaughter! [maniacal grin]" before a quest was taken. Now, that lets people know that he is a raving lunatic, who is probably dangerous to travel with. After others were killed, even after I had done things like that, I was questioned OOC about my character's actions, by people who shared similar views to PlayerCharacter.

This was fine. I could see where they were coming from. Yes, dying sucks. More so when its obviously someone else's fault. So, before quests afterward, I started sending tells to people I was questing with who didnt know my character, along the lines of "My character is a lunatic. He will always charge in at the first sight of an enemy, press on when wounded, and kill you himself if you run from the fight. Just so you know."

Even after this, people joined up, and people died, and I received more of the tells (which were not offensive, but admittedly were quite annoying). So I thought stuff it! I'm keeping it IC, to hell with everyone else! Why should I OOC warn people of what I make more than evident ICly? The answer is that nobody should question how another player's character is played. Ever.

So, to recap. Even characters with high Wisdom might still charge recklessly into battle. Characters are individuals, and they may or may not be immune to fear, and they may or may not be reckless, or they may or may not care about anyone in their party. To reverberate Wiggyboy and Sedarine above: keep it IC.

Howland The discussion can continue, I would request that references to a specific incident be edited out and any further discussion on the thread stay on topic and not resort to discussion about specific incidents or the RP of other players. Otherwise we had probably better lock the thread.

I agree with all of the comments here. I am not trying to tell anyone how to role play their character, I only wish to point out that there is a shared hallucination under which we labor, and which sets the conditions for our play. All of the examples of fearlessness cited here are entirely valid. But, without going into too much detail, I am reasonably sure that in the incidents which prompted this post, the cause of my frustration was not due to role-play. Since I can't go into detail without going personal, please take my word for it.

I take no issue with heroics, courage, or even with in-character stupidity. I am simply pointing out that no one anywhere commits suicide as a matter of habit, and that should apply equally to characters. For players who have developed long-established habits of play on so many different NWN servers, all of which are much more forgiving of death than is even justified by the planar make-up of the FRCS, it is easy to forget that, and it reflects on their IC behavior.

Being the other player in that unmentioned incident I can tell you that was due to Roleplaying not wanting spells to run out so we'll die for sure. Oh and it was'nt as sucidal as you thought since with just the two of us we actually made it out and odds were againt it. :)

Guys, guys. It's indeed an interested read, designed to make us think. He isn't trying to force anything onto us, he merely wishes for us to see a different side of things. Furthermore, this information may be old stuff for ... Well, mostly anyone who has posted comments here, but the newer (and sometimes less experienced) players may surely benefit from this to see that their character shouldn't be played as bits of pixels, but as characters of flesh and blood, that do feel pain, and that can die.

I applaud his initiative to educate some of us.