https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/26/2612/ecl/index.html

In response to that last post, and I'm just looking over the player list but once again the highest level players are ECl players.

Two level 8 players both with ECL of 3 at least making them level 11. At a time when no other player is level 9 even.

I tend to think ECL players should be dropping off in XP sooner than non-ECL. Nothing major, like a ECL player being unable to hit level 6 because the highest players on the server are level 9. However, I don't think the highest level players should have ECL, they should be the non-ECL players.

Looking at the list right now, we have 3 level 8 PCs at the highest level. Two of them have ECL making them over level 10 technically. It still seems rather imbalanced from the little I can currently gather.

If I might make a observation here, I think the biggest problem (excluding rothe, which I have allready posted about) is DM xp. At lvl 7 was still getting 250-750 slugs for RP and DM quests. Which is fair for most characters, but hardly for mine with ECL. That is about 10-15 statics worth of xp. Lately I have been getting much less, but I dont know if that is because my RP has lowered in quality, my in game goals are not being achived, or the DMs are have noticed a problem and are fixing it. All three are probably the case.

educate me here what is ECL?

Effective Character Level.

Certain character races have an ECL due to the amount of inherent benefits that they receive. What the ECL does it make it so that characters of these certain races require more XP to gain a level. Thus, it evens the playing field a tad.

For example, a Drow has an ECL of +2, meaning that your standard level 2 Drow will have an effective level of 4.

I'd go into it more, but I am a lazy.

I think there's a point to be made here, but on the other hand:

(1) Our ECL players are generally very good (which why they have an ECL in the first place) (2) DM XP is unmodified by ECL (3) Quest availability in terms of finding other people to do quests with is probably the biggest cap. Even if you gain half the XP other people do from a medium level quest, it's still a lot easier to find a group doing that quest than it is to find a group doing some of the high level quests. (4) Although our ECL correctly decreases the amount of XP an ECL PC gets from a monster or end of quest reward, it does not actually require more XP to advance in levels than any other PC (so in some ways it's incorrect to compare a level 6 +2 ECL PC to a level 8 PC)

Although we'll continue to monitor this, I have to be honest that I prefer ECL subraces to be a real perk and not just something that produces Pcs that are impossible to level and end up just scurrying around and hiding. I want PC drow to be feared and poweful, svirfneblin to be beyond your average lost adventurer, etc.

This would be a huge issue if ECL races were available to everyone, but they're not and actually really rare given that we're an Underdark server.

I think I'm coming from the angle of "your good characters should all be in the high, high level range through perks" not just the ones that got ECL characters.

I don't mind the feared drow, cause yes, them never getting past level six makes them a joke. On the other hand, as feared as a drow is--you should have a few other characters feared just as much. Yet if you've got one guy with ECL 3 at level 8--everyone fears him, even your other level 8s.

And this is coming from me, who knows full well that some DMs go WAY OUT of their way to reward players who are doing a good job telling stories and keeping plots moving, or even just to give a motivational push to a player feeling down on his luck. So its not an isolated incident, its more of a general view I have of how I'd like to see things handled.

Whoops, missed the point on my first reply there.

Yeah, 250 RP xp given to an ECL 3 character is probably really worth 1-2k numerically - we have to watch that i guess.

I like the subrace system as things are, really - they can "brute force" their way through the lexicon of quests, and do them easily with their increased power, which makes up for them gaining experience at a slower rate, and encourages them to be on more often - a good thing.

I'd be disinclined to give out any DM experience to any character with an effective level higher than the rest of the server though - we do need to watch balance. There's as little fun in being invincible as there is in being brittle.

Perhaps there should be slightly less experience for the subraces in general though... it does seem slightly obscene that the variance between the ECL characters highest levels and the Non-ECL high levels are in quantities of one, two or three entire levels as opposed to maybe players getting 'closer to' those players without ECL.

It would go a long way towards solving the problem if DMs, when giving XP to ECL characters, gave approppriately more XP to non-ECL characters. I guess it might seem a bit tedious to do the number crunching each and every time, but if every DM neglects it, these level 8+3 characters happen too easily like Oro has pointed out.

Howland, I think I'll have to disagree with the main point of your post as I understood it because you don't take into account that not all proven roleplayers, who qualify for "perks", apply for ECL characters. It's not as if everyone here sends an application for some cheesy ECL subrace as soon as they feel that they've a chance of getting it through. In that regard, not making a distinction between ECL and non-ECL characters when handing out rewards manually (or generally doing anything where ECL characters should in actuality be at a disadvantage) does seem unfair.

You could possibly make a special DM widget that becomes the only way DM's can give XP (rather than the standard client ways) This could then filter the amount of xp given if certain races have ECL.

This brings up the point that if you wish to treat ECL characters in the same way as a multiclass character that has their levels askew (ie. -20% xp gained etc) you could do that. (not sure what happens currently)

You could work out a value for the various ECL ratings, even if it's not quite how the standard rules do it. ECL 1 could be -10% xp gained ECL 2 could be -20% xp gained ECL 3 could be -30% xp gained ECL 4 could be -40% xp gained ECL 5 could be -50% xp gained

Or if thats too harsh maybe 5% per ECL level instead of 10%.

[Conservative mode] I like how it is. ECL characters would (and should!) be tougher than non-ECL character. Take a certain high-level Drow, who is feared by almost the entire playerbase. If he had been a 'common' Elf, he'd be nothing more than your average criminal (Statistic-wise, that is - I'm not bitching about roleplay). :)

In short, keep it going the way it is! [/Conservative mode]

I'd say if a character earns one of the more powerful subraces and has an app stellar enough to deserve them in the first place they are not going to break the environment with having a bit more mechanical power. Drow and werecreatures should be feared and respected. Svirf's should be more powerful and accustom to the underdark than a bunch of ex slaves. I'd hate to be in an environment where the local level 4 werecat is little more than a joke that any cleric with magic weapon can beat back with little effort.

Not to point out that you're all off the point entirely.

An ECL character is fine. That they're more powerful than average Joe's is fine.

My entire debate point, one largely being missed is that non-ECL stellar characters are unable to compete in terms of level with the ECL ones.

While certain characters in the level 10+ range are great, I've no quarrel with any of them. My issue is that while we have 10+ ECL characters, we've not a single, not a single non ECL PC in the same range. This implies to me not that the ECL characters are too powerful, but that the non-ECL characters aren't being recognized with the XP, rewards, status they deserve merely because they didn't apply for an ECL subrace.

When all the ECL characters are effectively 5 to 6 levels higher than the average player, and still 2 to 3 levels higher than the most powerful non-ECL players, it tells me that at least a few non-ECL players aren't being given the perks and incentives that encourage them to stick with their characters or to reflect the influence and power they've accumulated through the game.

I can off the top of my head list three or four characters that should be level 10+ and what I'm aiming at here isn't just that the ECL characters are the only ones able to obtain this currently, but that the non-ECL players *should* also be obtaining these levels.

This isn't so a drow PC or were-critter PC isn't feared, its because currently *only* they will be feared in an environment that is limiting the non-ECLs. I'm suggesting upping the non-ECL incentives not nerfing the ECLs in terms of playability. I'm not sure why people think 'nerfs' are the answer to every balance issue that crops up. Don't forget, as it stands a level 1 drow is a level 3 character--their increased power is reflected the entire time they are leveling up, not merely when they hit level 8 and are ECL 11 compared to a server of ECL 8 PCs. The bonus is something they utilized the entire time they got to level to 8, while the non-ECL struggled to reach 8 a little more. He'll still have to struggle to reach a level 11 to match a level 8 drow, and have a much harder time of it because while he gains XP a little faster, he's still a weaker over all character through the entire process of gaining levels.

lol-My bad! All the confusion about what I meant is because I wrote that while tired and wrote almost the opposite suggestion of what my suggestion was.

I blame too much "group think" from previous environments that simply saturated my brain.

Incidentally drow are ECL +2 I believe. We have had a level 10 PC, multiple level 9s, etc. of non-ECL races. Our wererats were actually being counted as ECL +2 too, which we changed. I think technically wererats -are- ECL +2 canon, but in EfU they really are closer to ECL +3.

I agree that rewarding characters appropriately is something we should always be working on.

I may note for the record that a few ECL guys, and higher level PCs have bumped off most of the non- ECL higher level PCs that revolved around plots and politics. There used to be (at least it seemed) more higher level types, but in EFU's unyielding plots for power and might, many of them have perished.

The scales of good and evil are always swaying. One clever coup could cut high level ECL to bits and restore the bell curve. I think it will all balance out in the end.