A problem that I've seen with other persistent world servers, and which seems to be repeating itself on this one, is that NPC law enforcement is outrageously high powered compared to what players are capable of defeating, or will be in any forseeable future. Level 12 guards are all over the place. Why would such powerful fighters even still be in the Underdark if they wanted to leave? Most creatures could be easily defeated by one, not to mention 20 of them.

I think that the guards and tiger eye mercenaries need to play a less integral role in the defense and law enforcement of the town, so that it makes sense for villains with plenty of power at their disposal to be feared by the guards, and thereby force good adventurers to act against them if they want their reign of terror stopped. Players aren't supposed to be able to rely on free NPC law enforcement and protection, but on their own abilities and will to survive.

CheshireCat A problem that I've seen with other persistent world servers, and which seems to be repeating itself on this one, is that NPC law enforcement is outrageously high powered compared to what players are capable of defeating, or will be in any forseeable future. Level 12 guards are all over the place. Why would such powerful fighters even still be in the Underdark if they wanted to leave? Most creatures could be easily defeated by one, not to mention 20 of them.

I think that the guards and tiger eye mercenaries need to play a less integral role in the defense and law enforcement of the town, so that it makes sense for villains with plenty of power at their disposal to be feared by the guards, and thereby force good adventurers to act against them if they want their reign of terror stopped. Players aren't supposed to be able to rely on free NPC law enforcement and protection, but on their own abilities and will to survive.

I concur, as I said in my post:

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/27/277/level-caps/index.html#post-2596

Also, with lower level guards. "Free standing" sellswords could sell their services easier as guards and whatnot. Hired by both the villans and good.

It all speaks for lower level guards! Yehaa!

This is one of the issues people mention from time to time, and I think is just crazy. If someone could help me explain what the issue is, I'd appreciate it.

Since when is "level" something IC at all? If a DM is there, they can easily adjust the NPC to whatever they want. If a DM is -not- there, I'd rather not have Joe Griefer or a bunch of pulled spawns conquering the town.

And, also, don't make the mistake of thinking a level 12 character would be able to easily leave the Underdark.

EDIT: Believe me, PCs will play an enormously important role in defending the town and the Watch does not lack for challenges. Our guard force is very, very far from all-powerful in a lot of different ways.

Aww.. Pwned by Howland.

For OOC reasons, it makes sense to keep the NPC Guards as relatively powerful.

For IC reasons, I think it still makes sense, if Sanctuary is supposed to be a safe haven against the horrors of the Underdark. A small Drider raiding party would've totally wiped Sanctuary off the map (Yes, I know it's not on it to begin with) long ago if the Tigereyes or Watch were lower level.

Let's make a distinction as it exists in my mind--and coming from someone who may have a little experience with NPC guards and their foibles.

1. Powerful NPC guards are fine, they're necessary to handle griefers attacking commoners when DMs are not online. I'm fine with level 40 NPC guards; provided a single condition--when the NPC guards come after my level 5 villain, I want to face run of the mill grunts (level 1 fighters) and not the level 40 NPC who oversees the destruction of idiots in the public areas of the city.

2. Powerful NPC guard faction should not exist. The PC members really should be the driving force, personality, and power in the guard forces. You may want a powerful NPC leading the guards (at least until a PC can take over realistically)--but ideally I was drawn to this setting because there wouldn't be powerful NPCs who could slam down players who opposed the law.

I recall other servers where this distinction wasn't maintained or didn't exist--and frequently found myself bored while playing a villain. My one PC even with dozens of allies couldn't make a difference against the law when it was composed of a very powerful NPC faction backed up by hordes (limitless seemingly) of level 10+ privates. I'd like to be assured that if I pick a fight with a guard, he's going to be a typical grunt and that by the time some villains/heroes are reaching level 10+ themselves the common foot patrol in the city isn't going to pose a threat to them--meaning the players themselves will have to oppose them.

Part of creating an adaptable flowing world is keeping the central authority weak enough that the players can influence and control the outcome of power struggles. While at the same time, I'd certainly suggest keeping some powerful, mysterious, and unpredictable force on hand that can always rectify a problem villain/hero who gets too powerful and begins to unbalance the story. Yet instead of being a "lawful" organization, its more useful to be chaotic and seemingly whimsical in its intents so a DM is free to utilize this "corrective" power only when absolutely necessary and not as is often the case when forced to do so for reasons of "consistency" and "realism" in the setting.

From experience, I know--its not the way to go.

I think people who are looking for a flavorful, immersive, challenging world (regardless of position) will be quite happy with the way we've designed things.

Oroborous

2. Powerful NPC guard faction should not exist. The PC members really should be the driving force, personality, and power in the guard forces. You may want a powerful NPC leading the guards (at least until a PC can take over realistically)--but ideally I was drawn to this setting because there wouldn't be powerful NPCs who could slam down players who opposed the law.

I recall other servers where this distinction wasn't maintained or didn't exist--and frequently found myself bored while playing a villain. My one PC even with dozens of allies couldn't make a difference against the law when it was composed of a very powerful NPC faction backed up by hordes (limitless seemingly) of level 10+ privates. I'd like to be assured that if I pick a fight with a guard, he's going to be a typical grunt and that by the time some villains/heroes are reaching level 10+ themselves the common foot patrol in the city isn't going to pose a threat to them--meaning the players themselves will have to oppose them.

Oro makes some really good points. And also keep in mind, that guards already have loot better than the average citizen as well - so the fight between a level 5 grunt Private, and a level 5 villian who hasn't even made a name for himself yet is unbalanced.

^ --- (My Post)

And yeah, someone needs to stop me from doing that.

I'm with Oro.

I'm sure there'll be a time when a NPC Watch confronts one of my characters, and it'd really help immensely if they weren't the level 7+ they usually are, As it'd stink very much to pull off a color spray to have their will be higher than the DC.

Of course, I'm pretty sure the DMs would adjust the level's accordingly.

You can't adjust levels accordingly actually. There is no way to adjust levels in the live module, they'd need to have several different NPC guards. Those posted in the module to watch for baffoons, and then several ranged levels to deal with specific leveled "foes". Its not hard to do, just requires a few extra NPC blueprints which luckily don't cause much real module bloat unless you have 60,000 of them.

Oroborous's points are alright, but I've no idea why you want to be able to expect to be facing a grunt.

Why should it work like that? Is it unreasonable to say that there may be some small chance your level 1 troublemaker may come into contact with a high level NPC guard?

In the interest of keeping things sporting, a DM should spawn a guard that is challenging toward your PC. Depending on the situation, it should vary in challenge. A level 9 PC should get a level 9 (or thereabouts, you get the idea) NPC for a regular disturbance, but if he's a major criminal, I don't see why the authorities wouldn't send two or three level 12 Guards.

The point is:

1. If you're a high level villain, the city guard isn't a threat to you. High level members of the guard will be, and they should be portrayed ideally by players. Nothing is more disappointing for a high level villain than to be slain by high level NPCs coming out of the woodwork.

IE: Mr. Villain plans to summon a demon to destroy Town X. Which solution is better.

A. Mr. Hero kills him in a titanic struggle. B. Mr. Villain kills Mr. Hero in a titanic struggle and Town X is destroyed--time for a new kind of campaign. C. Mr. Villain is killed by Town X's legendary NPC mayor Mr. Mayor after a titanic struggle. D. Mr. Villain is killed by Private Parts; generic NPC guard stationed in the town market.

Now, I'm not going to complain if D is the option a module goes for; but its not a satisfactory conclusion for anyone.

C. Is a better option, but still quite disappointing for the other players. Mr. Villain at least can brag that Mr. Mayor personally had to come to stop him; but Mr. Hero the PC is disappointed.

B and A are the best two options by far--and part of the main allure I have for EftU is that I think the DMs are also open to possibility B occuring down here--and too powerful of an NPC faction with powerful grunts at 19th level makes option B impossible.

And you shouldn't find a generic NPC grunt at a challenging level for Mr. Villain. Its silly, he's a major villain and a major figure should stop him not a high level generic no one.

Why should it work like that? Is it unreasonable to say that there may be some small chance your level 1 troublemaker may come into contact with a high level NPC guard?

As a matter of fact, it's quite unreasonable. Guards on average get paid about a gold piece _per week_. I don't think anyone who has the skills to be considered a mid-high level fighter would work for a gold piece per week. There may be one or two acceptions to this rule, but they would be either captains or important benevolent NPCs with real names, not just "city guard."

I completely agree with Oroborous, being on the receiving end of an army of high level grunts chasing my villain. Some of the wizard grunts I recall casting 9th level spells even (but we still beat them).

I think Oroborous has made a much more enlightened portrayal of what was the original idea behind my post. Perhaps brevity isn't such a good thing.

Sturmer

Why should it work like that? Is it unreasonable to say that there may be some small chance your level 1 troublemaker may come into contact with a high level NPC guard?

As a matter of fact, it's quite unreasonable. Guards on average get paid about a gold piece _per week_. I don't think anyone who has the skills to be considered a mid-high level fighter would work for a gold piece per week. There may be one or two acceptions to this rule, but they would be either captains or important benevolent NPCs with real names, not just "city guard."

This post works on so many levels of pointless and irrelevant, it's incredible.

:lol:

Anyway, I'm not saying it's a good thing for a major villain to be killed by generic NPCs, but nor do I think we should take it as a given that we'll be persued by Guards of our level.

Like I said, I think it's best for a DM to keep things sporting. Impossibly overpowered NPCs are fine for Griefers, but they should leave options open to those who role play villainy well.

I think Oroborous and I are in relative agreement, but I'm just uncomfortable with this:

when the NPC guards come after my level 5 villain, I want to face run of the mill grunts (level 1 fighters)

It seems not entirely dissimilar from metagaming CRs.

This post works on so many levels of pointless and irrelevant, it's incredible.

I don't see how the post is irrelevant as you were discussing the plausibility of a high level npc guard in the setting. I simply pointed out that it's rather improbable a high level would work for such little pay. I don't find bringing that point to the table while talking about the structure of city guards irrelevant at all. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

It's irrelevant in the fact that their pay has nothing to do with their level they are, the level of guards and NPCs of that sort is mostly OOC. They're suppose to be a grunt that's content with 1 gp a week.

A lot of this seems elementary, but I suppose it bears repeating.

The focus of this server is on PC story-telling, and our function as DMs is to provide useful, tasteful, and entertaining (perhaps even -- artistic?) conflict for our playerbase. I have no interest in squishing as a DM, I have lots of interest in seeing characters squishing each other.

A lot of thought has gone into our factions, and I'm actually pretty pleased with their design. For those who are concerned that our Watch is unduly powerful, I can only recommend that they stroll through the narrow, desperate streets of our miserable little settlement and and observe that a mercenary company has been contracted to keep order in half the town. Ask around - IC - about what sort of man Sheriff "Walters" really is, or how numerous his men are.

Each faction was designed in such a way according to my preference for how it would it be if I was a player playing in the faction.

For what it's worth, though, the PnP style of NPCs being ultra-low level doesn't really hold true here. You can anticipate a certain degree of martial prowess in the majority of our Watch NPCs, we are after all in the Underdark. However, a long-term character (villainous or otherwise) will almost certainly be more powerful. Furthermore, our Watch is actually pretty small in number so hordes of Privates is exceedingly unlikely.

It's irrelevant in the fact that their pay has nothing to do with their level they are, the level of guards and NPCs of that sort is mostly OOC. They're suppose to be a grunt that's content with 1 gp a week.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference about how much you're willing to take OOC.