What is the current legal system? What happens when someone breaks the law?

I have a particular interest in this topic because when I am not playing NWN I do the law school thang. It would really satisfy the law geek / DnD nerd in me to see a legal system at EfU that was not only effective at dealing out appropriate retribution and incarceration, but that offered some opportunities for further roleplay like: a model penal code with standards for punishment, evidence, legal excuse, potential for escape / rescue, and the chance that creative advocacy could have an effect on sentence and verdict (maybe tied into a skill like persuasion?) (all trimmed down and simple for efficiency).

I was bored in the library the other day and worked out a model penal code a la NWN / EfU just for kicks, if anyone is interested. I will not be offended if I am the only one that thinks this is a neat idea or if there is something else already in the works that is more workable.

Great job so far guys. Thanks.

We're still working out the kinks in our system, so I'd be interested in seeing your suggestions if you have them.

Essentially, the elected Council hands down the major punishments and arresting officer/highest ranking officer determine minor punishments.

Of course it gets complicated when you have three factions (Watch, Spellguard, Tigereye Mercenary Company) all of whom have some degree of involvement in protecting the town and keeping the peace.

However, I expect our system to change -- if a player so pleased, their Garagos worshipping barbarian councilmember could work to impose a system in which trials are determined by whoever wins a fight (or drinking contest). Or instead institute some hideously complicated law school legal system that is so confusing an entire profession of PCs is needed to interpret it.

Yup, we were talking about it the other day - I think the legal system should be subtly constructed to have gaps and inconsistencies for the players either to exploit them or to try to fix them, via the council politics.

I heard about a corrupt guard last night, so I guess that shows that there are delightful inconsistencies to say the least.

"Drow, of course, do have quite a bit of RP disadvantages (and advantages), and I would fully expect and encourage Drow PCs to be targeted by other PCs." - Howland

Here are some questions that run through my mind just on this one issue that make me think that we need at least some basic rules accessible to the public representing how legal issues are addressed, no matter what it is or who it is determined by or how often it changes.

Does that statement mean that characters can slay drow in the streets and not suffer any legal consequences under the likely initial legal system? Does it matter whether we do it in or outside of town? Does it matter how many times we do it or the circumstances? What about killing the same drow over and over? An ex slave that sees a drow, a member of a race that has enslaved / tormented him / her could be contrary to his manner if he did not kill every drow he sees on sight, regardless of who or how many times. Will drow have any legal protection at all or are they part of a non-protected class whose presence is tolerated only minimally (I hope so)? Does every major crime require a vote by the council to determine punishment? What about due process? What are valid forms and methods of presentation of evidence?

If all similar questions on all issues are to be dertimined solely and entirely by the council, then what is the starting point? If there is no statute on the books addressing these issues, then what about a common law record for how things have been handled in the past?

If not then at the very least it seems reasonable that there is a generally known outlook and sentiment of the towns people historically in regards to certain issues. It does not seem practical that a governing body would not want to let people know how some fundamental issues for governing the community will likely be handled. To say that a community that has been around for 150 years has not answered these types of questions and others for many crimes by example, or spoken or written announcement in a way that is available for understanding by the public at large would create some absence of reasonable factors that would help us determine how our characters will act. At the very least, it seems like a lack of law in this setting stretches the willing suspension of disbelief and hampers the feeling of immersion.

Just raising some issues for discussion. I am not by any means trying to give anyone a hard time and realize the server is in a state of testing and flux at the moment and that a "we'll deal with it when it comes up" perspective might be the most practical.

PS - Are the current council members PCs? How many people are on the council? Who decides how many people are on the council and if it can be changed? When are the next elections? How often are elections held? Can a council member lose his/her post? Do you have to apply to be a council member before you can be elected?

Some broad issues that I would consider are whether we want:

1) an independent judiciary branch of the council or community government,

2) different classes (more than minor / major) of crime that have sentencing guidelines,

3) a forum for determining guilt or innocence for major crimes and processing complaints by the public or reports of crime by officials that a) sets down basic guidelines for who will be charged, b) allows for argument affecting verdict and sentencing (perhaps partially based on a skill like persuasion) and c) the availability of a plea bargain, or

4) a police state where guards and officials have absolute authority only checked by more senior guards and officials, and eventually the council.

Good ideas! I recommend that you consider these issues ICly, not here in an OOC forum. ;)

We've got a basic legal system that we'll start from. It's rudimentary and flexible and has served Sanctuary for most of its existence. Information on it will be available in-game.

Arkov

Information on it will be available in-game.

Where / how / who / what / when? Glad to hear it.

ETA on next server availability?

Thanks.

Please disregard my previous questions re: town council. I just saw the thread. Good stuff.

The basic laws and punishments of Sanctuary are currently in the module, which should be up again hopefully sometime this weekend. At the moment we're working on stabilizing our major systems and converting our quests to our Quest System.

You've asked a lot of specific questions, some of which may best be determined IC, but here's a brief response to some of them:

The IC legal code of our town does not allow for the unsupervised execution of drow on sight in the streets. Putting aside that drow traders/mercenaries/good-aligned or neutral drow do exist, such an act would be considered unwise. Killing drow may attract the attention of Traensyr, and "willfully endangering Sanctuary" is actually the most serious crime in our struggling settlement. On the other hand, drow are feared and hated with an intensity by many citizens of the town. A drow walking undisguised in Upper Sanctuary (the more lawful district) would probably be brought in for questioning and ejected. Helmed drows skulking about in the shadowy corners of Lower Sanctuary, a distinctly more chaotic area, would be unlikely to be harassed by NPCs.

OOC, a perfectly possible and good concept is that of a PC that hates drow so much that he seeks to hunt out any he can find and murder them all.

If PCs want to change the laws to say that Drow are to be killed on sight, that is certainly perfectly possible. If a PC wants to establish a secret brotherhood to annhilate as many drow as he can, that is also perfectly possible.

The legal system, as it is, is not utopian. It is subjective, and very much bound to the whim of the Council -- at this moment, made up of NPCs. Generally punishments are determined by an individual Councilmember, and if there's a disagreement with the proposed punishment then it is resolved by a vote.

The Council is presently entirely NPCs, but soon as we go live we'll start having elections (monthly? every two months? I forget what we decided). You do not have to apply OOC to join the Council, everything is handled IG. Council can change any law, including laws that govern the Council. Councilmembers can lose their post. Being "presumed dead" (i.e. not playing for a while) is one easy way to lose your post, Councilmembers should definitely be active players.

Thanks for taking the time to provide some more information. Much appreciated.

Elections will occur once every two months after the first election. The first election may be delayed until we've gotten certain history/charters written up; getting those completed is secondary to scripting at the moment, but will be a high priority once our major systems are working.

What happens if we destroy Sanctuary through the bizarre world we are likely to create? Do we start over? Sanctuary 2.0?

I'd be interested in seeing your Model Penal Code, socialmisfit, even though I'm not a DM. I'm a law student as well, and my concentration and jobs have been in criminal law. Criminal statutory drafting is one of my top interests, but I've never tried it in a fantasy environment before, so bring it. :)