I'd like too see a 'Hardcore' option implemented at character generation, which works basically the same was as it does on 'that other server'.

New players to the server and the NWN engine could probably be informed in the OOC Welcome area about it, and be advised to maybe go for the Normal mode. The rest, I think, should probably play on hardcore. I think it gives death an even scarier aspect, thus adding to realism, and will probably lead to two things, which are both great in my opinion:

1) Fewer 'respawn laming' incidents.

2) A slightly higher server level average.

Okay, so...

Is this feasible, or indeed desired, in any way?

1) What respawn laming?

2) I don't mind slightly higher levels, but I think most of the rest of the DM team specifically don't want anyone higher than what it is at current.

Feasible, yes, desirable, no.

Server level is about right, by my reckoning. And I think you overestimate the impact that a change to "Hardcore" would make on average server level. The real cap is that we don't have that many quests with CR 10 monsters as the mooks...means that it's tough to gain a lot of XP around level 10.

-Cross

I think we decided months back that it wasn't necessarily desirable to widen the curve between the people who are good at NWN and those who can RP well but simply can't handle NWN combat very well, and as such we decided against a hardcore option. Self-imposed hardcore options are, of course, fully encouraged.

Although I tend to think the -average- is about right now, I will say that there is no real imposed cap on character levels, although I would anticipate advancement beyond level 12 to be quite slow. So long as your character continues to develop and grow, he will advance in levels.

There are (challenging, but rewarding) quests for our higher level characters, and I am really looking forward to finishing some longer, high level quests that I think will be the best the server has to offer in terms of scripted quests.

1) What respawn laming?

I wasn't pointing to anything in particular. If a hardcore option was implemented though, and most of the server played on it, there would be few incidents which follow this pattern:

Character A kills Character B in worthy PvP. B respawns a few days later, even though A chopped off his head and sacrificed him to Urdlen, after having burnt the body to ashes. B hunts down A and kills him a few weeks later.

I know that doesnt happen everyday, but I must admit I've seen or heard of the like, and, for me at least, that seems wrong.

And I think you overestimate the impact that a change to "Hardcore" would make on average server level.

I said 'slightly'. :wink: Yes, Hardcore would not make people any harder to kill.

I think we decided months back that it wasn't necessarily desirable to widen the curve between the people who are good at NWN and those who can RP well but simply can't handle NWN combat very well, and as such we decided against a hardcore option.

That is a good point, which I must admit I didn't consider. I guess it would ultimately create a level discrepency or maybe even contribute to some 'elitist' attititudes between said groups of players. That really isn't fair, and I concur that Hardcore would lead to this...

Overall though, I think the most awesome aspect of hardcore mode is that it really increases the danger and realism. Presently, it seems that no matter what way you die, you can come back via respawning. That irks me a little. If hardcore was an option, characters would really truly have to think about whether they wanted to give a trusted friend 1500 coins, to put away for a raise in case of an accident or murder, or simply go out and buy Sugriams amulet for another AC point.

Two counter-arguments:

1) Hardcore-mode encourages minmaxing and other less-than-savory means to up your chances of survival.

2) I'd say that most players, when choosing to play on Hardcore, fail to realize that there are also many OOC sources of death. Such as lag or crashes, which just suck majorly but can't be done much about. You will eventually die to one of them and then you'll wonder why you didn't choose to play on Normal mode to prevent frustrations like that. (Yes, I learned that the hard way.) In short, permadeath just isn't meant for online gaming.

I'd rather see a Hard Core Roleplayer mode.

Where everyone can hit a certain level, and after that DMs just feel free to hand levels to good players upon successful completion of plots/storylines etc.

Nothing based on your skill with the NWN engine at all. Rather based on your influence over the story and world.

It avoids the entire "He's a level 10 barbarian. We all fear him."

"How'd he get that powerful and feared?"

"He killed more orcs than anyone around!"

"Oh."

And:

"That's Bob the priest. No one knows his god, but he's level 9. Fear him!"

And replace it with the:

"He's the feared barbarian warrior who leads the Grundin tribe. He slew the halfgiant fiend Xeulo. We all fear him."

"Well duh."

Or

"That's Councilor Starag. He's the living embodiment of his diety in Sanctuary. A force of pure conservatism resisting all change. He's been duly elected to the Council every year for years. What time isn't spent on Counsel business is spent communing with Grumbar himself."

"Wow, scary dude."

I'd actually be in favour of that, Oro, and it -sort- of already works like that.

Powergamers get dick in the ways of DM attention, whereas myself and at least one other DM I know will drop 1k, 2k, or above, exp on people for really good role play.

better roleplayers are also more likly to get involved / create new things for the DM's to run using @areas and thus get more experience that way.

yeha perma death just ruins the fun although something that may be incorperated dont know if it would work is for some of the higher lv quests where if you die in it you perma die ofcourse you have the problem of lag crashes and that but i guess you could have a spiritual side of things where when you die in them you may visit your "Deity" AKA DM in deity discuise and depending on how you RP your "Deity" may chose to revive you but at a steap cost of XP. know what i meen? cause permadeath can be a meens for better charactor building and you can probably RP it alittle better aswell i guess. depends on the player though.

It would be a choice thing. Nothing forced.

But, as Howland mentioned, there is a very good reason why the DM team decided against Hardcore.

As to Oro's suggestion...I like it but I don't. Undecided. Interesting idea though.

I am very much in favour of Oro's proposal. I fully second it.

That is a ~very~ good idea I think. Master mind I tell ya, Master mind! (I may not be helping any but thats my opinion)

Ladocicea I'd actually be in favour of that, Oro, and it -sort- of already works like that.

Powergamers get dick in the ways of DM attention, whereas myself and at least one other DM I know will drop 1k, 2k, or above, exp on people for really good role play.

In the time I could earn 1 or 2 thousand experience for great roleplaying, I could also simply do nothing but quest and hit level 8.

Essentially, the system still rewards the people who do less. Regardless of DM time and obviously hard working efforts to prevent this. Anything you earn in a nine month stint of good enjoyable play and be more or less erradicated by a player who no one's heard about because while you spent an entire night roleplaying and trying to stir things up on the server-they spent a night getting to level 8 and earning better/more gear than you.

The DMs here try hard to prevent this; but it will always happen at a certain stage. It becomes more frequent as time progresses because the server base becomes larger and has less contact with a DM base. Good roleplaying rewards are less tangible effect wise than the reward for simply slashing through quests.

However, the decision on whether a server becomes open to this pit fall or not is reached very early in its life. When a decision is made to bypass a certain ration of DMs to players, to accept that an hour of questing can yield 500 xp and 250-500 gold while a full night of doing nothing but roleplaying *might* garner you 25 xp to 2000 if you're really lucky. The math is still not in the favor of the hardcore roleplayer.

Its even part of why DM plots have trouble getting completed on the metaplot level. Its less rewarding to stay involved than to do a scripted quest ultimately in purely xp/gold terms. While the intangible reward of greater fun and involvement has always motivated me to persue DM plots, the reality is that its easy to just lose out on them entirely when it comes down to a case of my levels can't match this guy who just stumbled in the way levels.

Obviously, this is partially motivated by the situation I was involved in last night-but ultimately this is an argument I presented way back in Alpha when I was maintaining that for the style of gaming world I prefer a slightly smaller more intimate base that engages in active targeted recruitment is preferable to a larger more faceless base that actively recruits anyone who comes by.

Deep down, I think I'd prefer the second option if one existed that I knew about and could get into. The problem I've seen with servers like this that I've tried to get into is that they make far too 'big' of areas for the limited players they have. Everything gets spread out and you log in and can't find anyone.

Although I'm not going to discuss specific incidents in a public thread (happy to do so privately), I will say that as a very general rule I think it's a good thing for the server that a week old character has the possibility of killing a nine month old character.

This thread has gone off topic a bit, but I will say that I appreciate some of the insights here. At some point, probably a few months ago, the server changed from a point where I (or other DMs) were pretty much aware of every character and virtually everything important that happened, to a point now where there's a huge amount I'm simply unaware of. It's gone from the classic DnD campaign, to a beast of its own.

I do, however, think the server is fundamentally better every day that passes. The thing that really keeps me energized about EfU is that there are still tons of new players who join who are just awesome, and whose comments and RP remind me of that feeling of excitement from that first night of DM'ing I had in early alpha.

There is definitely an issue with min-maxed characters, but I do think there is a way to handle it -

(1) Enforce characters playing their stats, and politely and respectfully point out to players when they don't (i.e. low cha/int/wis) (2) Do our best to reward characters who do not min-max and who RP interesting characters (3) If chronic, politely and respectfully talk with the player about why they feel the need to play a totally min-maxed character.

The issue (and this is a separate issue) that really gets me is the occasional player who logs on and just really doesn't seem interested in RP at all, and maybe border-line cheats/metagames, and is just sort of trashy in their play-style in general -- players like these usually get bored and find somewhere else to play, or slip up and end up getting banned. However, it is certainly true that we have more of these type-players now that the server isn't password protected, but I don't know what more we can do about it. That's actually probably the biggest issue for me as a DM, it isn't the blatant griefers/cheaters (I can just ban them) but the players who manage to linger on with their trashy play-style. Anyway, off topic!

As the summer progresses, I do hope to really invest some serious DM energy and time into renewing some of the initial early alpha intimate feel, working on some enjoyable plots, and figuring out ever more ways to help players have their great characters do awesome, memorable things and reward them for it.

There is definitely an issue with min-maxed characters, but I do think there is a way to handle it -

(1) Enforce characters playing their stats, and politely and respectfully point out to players when they don't (i.e. low cha/int/wis) (2) Do our best to reward characters who do not min-max and who RP interesting characters (3) If chronic, politely and respectfully talk with the player about why they feel the need to play a totally min-maxed character.

In regards to that, how much do you feel the we players should be 'enforcing' that policy, how much should we be reporting to the DM's, or how much should we simply hope the DM's notice and handle on their own?

No, players aren't involved in any of that -whatsoever-. You may, IC, react negatively to characters with low charisma of course, but even then I'd be careful, since you don't actually know.

Howland rule I think it's a good thing for the server that a week old character has the possibility of killing a nine month old character.

I entirely disagree there. A one week old character should have to put in a lot of real effort roleplay wise to gain the power of an established nine month character.

Otherwise, why not min/max; powergame; roleplay when convenient; and otherwise just hang in the background? There isn't a reward for really putting signifcant effort into things that can't be revoked by after months of storytelling by someone who just happens to show up?

I've always felt that the best way to avoid the pitfalls of DnD's min/max, powergame highlighting system was to establish very strong and very visible rewards for the people who do well. The dilema at times is that it creates the illusion of favortism, but the way around that is to keep it clear ingame and out why the guy who just pumped out 50 quests this week still can't compete politically, plotwise, or PvP wise with the guy who's done maybe 100 quests over the last six months total but also has a complex series of allies, friends, enemies, goals, influence etc.

If a week old character wants to take out an established character great. It shouldn't be as easy as having quested more than the other guy though. Ultimately, that is the problem with the m/m'er pg'er. With very little effort or time they can overshadow the players who put forth a lot of effort and time and erradicate any influence they had over the server, the story, or the plot.

Nerfing or punishing these players won't work though. It burns out the DMs and creates a sense of elitism from players who want to 'enforce' the roleplay 'rules'. Focusing on praising the players who do well, openly and honestly will inspire everyone else.

In management and parenting classes, its pointed out that for every bad thing a 'leader' points out--he misses ten opprotunities to reward good. In other words, whatever rewards you give in the form of praise, experience, etc is probably 1/10th of what you ideally want to obtain the culture you're trying to build.

Rather than focus on suggestings to punish players who often just haven't learned the roleplaying culture people are establishing here--there should be more suggestions focused on positive reinforcement of what is wanted.

hmm I have yet to make it to level eight so I can't say if it can be done in the time you mention. The fact that the quests can only be repeated once a day makes me think it really can't though. But I am not a hardcore player in that I don't log on every day *shrugs* I was actually surpised to find out the server was reset that often.

This server has BY FAR the most roleplay of any server I have been on. So much in fact that it was to much for the people I invited from the "roleplaying" guild I belong to (though I think the dreary atmosphere was not to their taste as well). Given that the location is in the underdark though it seems resonable to me to assume that you are never safe no matter who you are that at any time someone who you don't know could come out of the woodwork and kill you. (Especially if you are a council member who has enemies rich enough to hire drow assasisns...)

I know it takes 1 week to hit level 8. I'm not even a very good 'quester' so to speak and I could do it in less than a week if I really tried. I know one player who can hit seven in one day of playing. That's without min/maxing even. Its just that easy.

Oroborous

Howland rule I think it's a good thing for the server that a week old character has the possibility of killing a nine month old character.

I entirely disagree there. A one week old character should have to put in a lot of real effort roleplay wise to gain the power of an established nine month character.

Otherwise, why not min/max; powergame; roleplay when convenient; and otherwise just hang in the background? There isn't a reward for really putting signifcant effort into things that can't be revoked by after months of storytelling by someone who just happens to show up?

I think it comes down to wether you want a server that is fixed and static with little change or a server where things can at any time go in a crazy new direction. I perfer the latter myself but in the end it is just a taste issue. The enjoyable roleplay is itself the reward for engaging in it as far as I'm concerned, but then I am in no way a powergamer *shrugs*

I actually agree with much of what you said Oro, and think we're on the same page that the key thing is to focus on positive reinforcement and rewarding characters that perform well in plots in meaningful ways.

I do want to make it very clear that I am just speaking in very broad terms, and really honestly not about specific incidents (and every incident has its own quirks and specific aspects), however as a general rule I think it's important that even characters that have been around for months, and have a network of associates, and are rich, are able to be killed through PvP by the character no one expected (not easy, but the -possibility- is there). It mixes things up, it keeps things fresh. After all, if I was playing an established PC, and initiated PvP on a new character for legitimate reasons, I'd certainly hope that even if I had the IC advantage that there'd be a degree of fairness and a level playing field there that meant that the possibility of failure would be real and serious.

However, the decision on whether a server becomes open to this pit fall or not is reached very early in its life. When a decision is made to bypass a certain ration of DMs to players, to accept that an hour of questing can yield 500 xp and 250-500 gold while a full night of doing nothing but roleplaying *might* garner you 25 xp to 2000 if you're really lucky. The math is still not in the favor of the hardcore roleplayer.

The question really is , is rewarding XP what you actually want to be do?

It's been theorised that you could start everyone at LEVEL X and then make advancement almost non-existant. Everyone would nearly always be on an equal footing (except for items worn etc). Rewarding the roleplayer with items that are BEYOND what you could ever get on a scripted quest DOES happen on here, and it's a good thing. That IS a real reward.. however I'm firmly in the boat with believing that ROLEPLAY itself is it's reward, getting what you give. Not some tallied XP value, bit of loot, status. If you really care about your character you'll give them the honorable meaningful perma-death they deserve. Which erases any monetary, xp, item achievement you may have had with them. The only thing about them that outlives them is their memory in the minds of other characters and the players who play them. (or maybe mummified and placed above the door in a local bar)

As for myself I play bit parts myself, I dont associate strongly with any of my characters, I like the variety that comes with wearing the Mask of many faces. For myself i'm not in it to get any status or reknown, the best reward you can give me is to interact with me, in whatever aspect, avatar or form I reside in.

If you want to have a hardcore character, it is really quite simple. Don't respawn. It is that simple. You can be hardcore if you want.

Agreed Wildcatt, though the general rule of hardcore is that those players who accept it and will consciously play by it, receive a small XP bonus as they level. Reward for risk, kind of.

Actually its not at all small I recall earning up to 500-1000 more xp on certain qeusts with a hardcore character elsewhere.

You hit lvl 8 in a week? I've had rough time staying at lvl 5 for about a month now. But then, to hells with it. I enjoy roleplaying the most.

When you roleplay a character, you begin to love him/her. You want their deaths to have a meaning. Then, you die in vain - no one ever even hears about it. You gotta have the chance to respawn, no matter what, and die fighting beside your friends if nothing else! Sure, hardcore'd be somewhat fun and 'real' at first, but eventually someone will be pissed... Errare humanum est.