I see a lot of 'doctor' characters. I'm starting to be baffled because I've never imagined 'doctors' in the Forgotten Realms. Lore Masters yes, Sages yes, Engineers of course, Bards definitly--but not once have I heard of 'doctors'.

I'd imagine the title seems pretty hollow too, what makes you a 'doctor' in a world that lacks major universities granting 'doctoral' degrees. In our world, a doctor is someone who graduates from a university or theological program in a church. The Realms largely lacks universities, education is small and handled by the church of Oghma. The graduates of Oghman education typically are called Lore Masters or Sages though--not doctors. Priests who 'graduate' a seminarian program typically would be called just that--priests or clerics or theologists at best.

I just find the term is pretty emersion breaking, smacking too much of our world and less of the fantasy world and keeping in character with it.

The term itself is kind of distanced from the FR, but I see no problem in PCs that specialize in studying and treating the human anatomy, diseases, and so forth, whether they're a cleric or not.

I don't either. Just the term grates on me. Its too modern real world.

Its seeing five or six 'doctors' running around in game that baffles me when its not a term I'd expect in the Realms.

I also couldn't see anyone who stitches folks up, cuts them open, and basically engages in 'surgery' as being respected at all in the Forgotten Realms. Priests merely chant and wounds heal through faith, while a 'doctor/surgeon' cuts them open, stitches parts together, rubs foul smelling ungeants on them. It seems barbaric I'd imagine to a world with magical healing readily available.

I'm also not sure about 'mental health' as that's entirely a 20th century modern world term. No one studied 'mental health' even in our scientific world until the last 125 years or so. The Realms has a few nut houses, run not by 'doctors' but again by priests of Ilmater or Oghma so its people are again called Lore Masters or Sages or Acolytes--terms steeped in religion not 'science' which is considered a strange and obscure practice entirely in the Realms.

I see no problem in letting people have some artistic license with their roles. It doesn't ruin my immersion one bit that people call themselves doctors.

Artistic liscense is fine. Never said it wasn't.

I'm pointing out that they're just using a term that has no apparent bearing on the world.

It would be as if I started calling the Watch "police officers" instead of watchmen. Its a term that largely doesn't fit.

I think "Healers" would be a more fitting term. I feel "Doctors" and "Physicians" are too comtemporary.

I don't find the term or concept to be immersion breaking, although I do concede that "physician" is better than doctor. There is (after all) a heal skill, and people who specialize in this heal skill are really good at healing wounds and administering tonics and antitoxins to the point that they'd take pride in their skills. I guess my basic instinct (and this is admittedly contrary to some aspects of the setting) is for magic to be relatively rare in the lives of most people, and for there to be room for people who focus in mundane/surgical healing as well as divine healing.

Mental health is something else altogether, and although mental health asylums may be rare on the surface I think it'd be a reasonable project in Sanctuary given the extremely harsh environment. There are other details regarding the place you may be thinking of, also, that'd be more of a find-out-in-game, but it was a project that would have (and may still) turn out to be pretty interesting I think.

Never thought about that, but good point. As some of you know, I have been introducing my character as "Dr. Razvanul". Now it is kinda hard to change the whole term, because half of the people who he knows, calls him "Doc." [I love it btw ;)]

Those who know my character are free to PM for better term, I will maybe start to use that.

I totally agree Oro. "Doctors" would probably not exist, and using the term does kind of clash with the language of our game.

What would exist would be people who practiced physics (physicians), healers, or I'm sure there are other such titles. In the FR you might also find specialized sages and whatnot.

About magic being readily available, I agree to an extent. Yes there are a lot of clerics running around our city who could patch you up in an instant- but what about the NPCs? Magic, arcane or divine, is rare among commoners from what I can tell, and seeing a physician or healer is a lot more probable than gaining access to the divine powers of a deity through its clergy.

Just my take on it all.

I don't think the concepts themselves don't fit, just that the term "doctor" hardly fits at all. I'd also expect people to view it as a less admirable pursuit than going to a priest to be healed.

Just like here in our world we visit doctors and tend to look dimly upon faith healers. Even though some science gives some 'traditional remedies' support and credence, people still tend to look poorly on it--even when it works.

Compared to the inexcusable dropping of the F-bomb every third word by even some of our very best roleplayers, "Doctor" is the least of my worries.

I've asked Arkov to code up something for me which will just replace f--- with "I have a lack of creativity", but he's being slow about it.

-Cross

Why not give us a list of FR style slang words to use to show some form of ignorance or the characters lack of creativity in his words! (actually I've heard dm possessed npcs speak in a similiar manner also) :P

Fuck is a good old word.

They used an equivalent word in ancient Sumeria. Its scrawled on the insides of the pyramids in Egyptian. Its universal.

Naga Why not give us a list of FR style slang words to use to show some form of ignorance or the characters lack of creativity in his words! (actually I've heard dm possessed npcs speak in a similiar manner also) :P

Actually, source books that cover language oftentimes give examples of common phrases and swearwords. :)

Fuck may, in fact, be a good old word, but that doesn't change the fact that it, far more often than any other word, covers for lack of effort and creativity on the part of the speaker. Though I may be alone in this opinion. =)

-Cross

Buttons and Barndoors!

I'd love to see these, but don't own any sourcebooks. Also, due our unique setting, we could just as easily make our own, though I think the DMs would be best left to do that... just my opinion.

Buttons and Barndoors!

Crosswind Fuck may, in fact, be a good old word, but that doesn't change the fact that it, far more often than any other word, covers for lack of effort and creativity on the part of the speaker. Though I may be alone in this opinion. =)

-Cross

I don't have any source reference... however!

I give to you...

Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue Or A Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit, And Pickpocket Eloquence Unabridged From The Original 1811 Edition

Here.

Thief cant is appropriately marked as "cant." Contains such lovely terms as - *randomly picks a few*

AIR AND EXERCISE. He has had air and exercise, i.e. he has been whipped at the cart's tail; or, as it is generally, though more vulgarly, expressed, at the cart's arse.

BLACK ART. The art of picking a lock. Cant.

CACKLING CHEATS. Fowls. CANT.

CACKLING FARTS. Eggs. CANT.

DANCE UPON NOTHING. To be hanged.

TO DOCK. To lie with a woman. The cull docked the dell all the darkmans; the fellow laid with the wench all night.

Etc. :P

Crosswind Fuck may, in fact, be a good old word, but that doesn't change the fact that it, far more often than any other word, covers for lack of effort and creativity on the part of the speaker. Though I may be alone in this opinion. =)

-Cross

George R. R. Martin uses it!

You lose. :(

- Kia

I am quite fond of the word "bugger" which is a good old term I like to use, and slightly softer than the F- version. Bloody hell, also is a nice phrase too, which I prefer.

Fish I am quite fond of the word "bugger" which is a good old term I like to use, and slightly softer than the F- version. Bloody hell, also is a nice phrase too, which I prefer.

And the literal meaning seems to be lost on many. Bugger is a fine word though, and used often here in the great southern land. :wink:

I'll admit to dropping the F-Bomb far more than I should on Cail. It's really difficult not to though, seeing as he's a vulgar, offensive jerk. It's part of him to say shocking and offensive things, and saying "Bloody hell you idiot" isn't quite as powerful as "You fucking dumbass", is it?

I think I would feel almost hypocritical, or at least like I'm not playing him properly if I stopped using the F-bomb altogether. Though reducing the frequency, I might do.

This is not meant as an insult whatsoever to the way you play your character Kotenku, but I think Crosswind is suggesting that there are alternative ways to making your character seem powerful, intimidating and offensive other than just using a certain offensive word in every sentence. But then again, you probably do those things too, and its not really my place to critique your style unless you ask. :)

PS - If you want creative and yet offensive cursing, look at Alstro's character Mbizi. "Blex!"

Kiaring

Crosswind Fuck may, in fact, be a good old word, but that doesn't change the fact that it, far more often than any other word, covers for lack of effort and creativity on the part of the speaker. Though I may be alone in this opinion. =)

-Cross

George R. R. Martin uses it!

You lose. :(

- Kia

That's a lack of creativity on his part, too. But I understand, since apparently using "fuck" all the time is the only way he'll get the next book out before 2010.

-Cross

I've had three characters.

The first was a soldier in an army before the Underdark gobbled him up. He used fuck a fair few times.

The second was a priest who considered himself learned and above the petty masses. He didnt use fuck once.

My current is a halfling rogue who doesn't give a shit about many things, and was bought up on the streets of Calimport, where hins are considered little better than slaves. He uses fuck alot.

It depends on the character and his background and personality, as to if he swears and when he does, what exactly he says, and how often. Unless it becomes a DM rule to outlaw swearing, I'm going to play my characters as they should be.

I believe if you use a word from our times that probably could have not find a way to reach Faerun, you could at least change it to "Feck" and "Shite".

Note that Shit actually existed in the seas, where it had something to do with the person standing on the tallest stand over the ship and looking for shore. I don't remember the exact meaning, but it did exist. But nevermind, I digress. ; )

Personally, using clean swears and something more original, in my humble opinion, is better. Even if you're playing a nasty character. "Bane's Balls" is a common cuss in certain places, for exemple.

Maybe the character isn't creative in his vocabulary?

Crosswind Fuck may, in fact, be a good old word, but that doesn't change the fact that it, far more often than any other word, covers for lack of effort and creativity on the part of the speaker. Though I may be alone in this opinion. =)

-Cross

Totally 100% agree

I'm happy with people to think of themself as a doctor, it''s more immersion breaking to me to have people swearing constantly. A medieval warrior clad in breastplate calling another guy an "asshole" is worse to me than a guy introducing himself as a doctor.

As far as George R.R. Martin goes, i'm really disappointed that he wasn't more creative with his swearwords especially considering that he is a fan of Blackadder, the ULTIMATE putdown show. For instance, such classics as -

Blackadder "He's got a brain the size of a weasel's wedding tackle....A master with all the intellect of a jugged walrus and all the social graces of a potty."

"Your brain's so minute, Baldrick, that if a hungry cannibal cracked your head open, there wouldn't be enough to cover a small water biscuit"

"Percy, far from being a fit consort for a Prince of the Realm, you would bore the leggings off a village idiot. You ride a horse rather less well than another horse would, your brain would make a grain of sand look large and ungainly and the part of you that can't be mentioned, I am reliably informed by women around the court, wouldn't be worth mentioning even if it could be. If you put on a floppy hat and a furry cod-piece you might just get by as a fool, but, since you wouldn't know a joke if it got up and gave you a hair-cut, I doubt it."

- are all part of the show. Why not replace 'shit' with 'Rothe-dung' here? Still works, doesn't break the immersion.

I especially don't people telling other to "Fuck off" in character, it riles me OOCly now, and i might start cracking down on it.

Original Topic: Doctors - yeah, I'd have to agree that the whole doctor term seems a little too current day, all that's missing is a stethascope, and him running around yelling "I need a Chem 7 and a rapid infuser stat!" :P My thoughts are that PCs go to a healer in DnD because it's accepted as a divine blessing or they used herbs or help from a druid, etc because it's natural and fairly understood that a herb or bandage could help. A doctor/physician in my opinion is all about science and the like tests and procedures that in this setting would be viewed very very suspiciously since the only way they'd learn some of the things they do would be through disection and corpse study, which I can imagine most PCs should percieve as akin to necromancy and thus on the very lowest rung of any healing arts. The term doctor especially and even physician seem to evoke a much more current (non-immersive) feel IMHO. I'd think something akin to a medicine man, shaman, practicioner, scientist, or something might more accurately reflect both the title and the role in society. To me, a doctor is someone you go to precisely because they have hundreds of years of research and years and years of training to become one, not to mention the sophistocated medical equipment and medical journals to rely on, none of which would exist in EfU.

Side topic: F-bomb - Personally I think not using the f-bomb every other word is an opportunity for even more immersive RP, precisely because it's sort of a crutch and lacks creativity. I know I tend to think of someone I overhear that's just ranting and cussing up a blue streak that they are either drunk, not very bright or just so mad they can't think straight if all they do is use it every sentence. I think you can be vulgar and offensive and even more intimidating without using it as a crutch. I think of some of the Vietnam movies with drill sergeants that may cuss once in a whole paragraph but mainly intimidate and scare the crap out of people by getting in their face and bellittling them very creatively. "You little yellow bellied, piece of cow dung... I wouldn't walk across the street to spit on your sorry hide... did your mother not teach you to dress or are you such a miserable little piece of manure that ..." you get the idea :D

I've found ways around the f-bomb, in a black adderish sort of way. Though not nearly as well executed. The one I struggle with is, sometimes I find myself saying "AH Christ" and I want an equivalant for my character. I've struggled with this for a long time. Obviously "sweet zombie jesus!" would have no place in game. Nor would "Christ on a cracker", "Fucking christ" etc. I've tried supplementing other deities in but it doesnt have the same punch. And saying "hells" (which is usually used when I'm struggling not to blaspheme) is wearing thin and not the same.

Allow me to interject with a utile little link here, specifically for the aspiring herbalists and apothecaries:

Medieval Medicine

Very useful if you want to dig into the medical nomenclature of the era.

Maybe they should be named "Medicus".. I played another PnP for a long long time that had a class named like this, it was some sort of field medic, with great mundane healing skills and a little fighting, also herbalogy and all that.

Scarrow wins.

[Middle English, attested in pseudo-Latin fuccant, (they) fuck, deciphered from gxddbov.]

Word History: The obscenity fuck is a very old word and has been considered shocking from the first, though it is seen in print much more often now than in the past. Its first known occurrence, in code because of its unacceptability, is in a poem composed in a mixture of Latin and English sometime before 1500. The poem, which satirizes the Carmelite friars of Cambridge, England, takes its title, “Flen flyys,” from the first words of its opening line, “Flen, flyys, and freris,” that is, “fleas, flies, and friars.” The line that contains fuck reads “Non sunt in coeli, quia gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk.” The Latin words “Non sunt in coeli, quia,” mean “they [the friars] are not in heaven, since.” The code “gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk” is easily broken by simply substituting the preceding letter in the alphabet, keeping in mind differences in the alphabet and in spelling between then and now: i was then used for both i and j; v was used for both u and v; and vv was used for w. This yields “fvccant [a fake Latin form] vvivys of heli.” The whole thus reads in translation: “They are not in heaven because they fuck wives of Ely [a town near Cambridge].”

I guess my thought on the phrase is a bit round about.

So there are us exceptional people in Sanctuary. We were all slaves. Why were we captured? albiet because we either were easily subdued OR we possessed a skill that the slaver races wanted. having a doctor or healer around would be a good thing for damn near all races.

So while we may call them one thing in game, keep in mind that the slaver races -might- have called them doctor. Maybe it's just their word for healer or stitcher or whatever.

So I say we let it slide for now will 10000000000000 clerics show up and call themselves doctors all day long.

I dunno...doctor just sounds odd. Doctor is too skilled a term for our setting I think. Hell in the civil war we were still doing tho ol' :[gives a swig of whiskey] Now bite down on this leather strap while I just saw that pesky arm off with this rusty hacksaw.

As for Crosswind and his fucking predicament [grins]. Fuck sounds a bit human to me. I don't mind humans using it. Hell, even "feck" for some hins or "fark" for dwarves can be funny if used well. But nothing takes the cake like an insult that strikes at the very heart of the matter. One so pointed and clever that the opponent of the verbal assault is left looking like an ass as he vainly struggles for a comeback.

"In a duel of the minds my good [target ommited to protect the innocent], I fear I would decline. [Grins slightly] After all, it wouldn't be very sporting to duel an unarmed man."

I think there would definitely be non-magical healers around, given Magic is sometimes expensive, and not all people want to go visit the kind ol' Cleric of Bane on the hill for all their ills.

"Chirgeon" is an old word for a sort of battlefield Surgeon that was used in Medieval times, and they were definitely a sort of doctor.

you're entirely correct nine.

It goes a little bit with the argument "Should clerics walk around healing anyone that looks wounded or not" argument too.

There would definately be non-cleric healers. Clerics are devoted to the service of their God, and most Gods don't have healing in their portfolio unless I'm dreadfully mistaken. Sure, patching up a stranger with the power of your god every once and a while, that's fine especially if you can spread the word of your deity while you're at it. But short of Ilmateri clergymen, commoners would go to a non-magical healer. Also, factor in that magic is expensive and it makes a whole lot of sense for there to be non-magical healers.

This has all fallen dreadfully off-topic. :roll:

Do doctors exist? The answer seems to be a resounding YES.

Do "doctors" exist? Well, most people seem to think they would not, and a DM was included in that bunch so it's safe to assume NO. What would exist:

-Physician -Surgeon* -Chirurgeon* -Healer -Medicine Man (for a tribal non-cleric) -Anyone know of others?

*Bear in mind, VERY rudimentary practices. With the knowledge aquired from being able to heal people magically, I've always assumed surgical know-how of the era to be late 1800's. Anesthesia would be known of, though mostly uncommon and not well-understood for quite some time. Amputation would be fairly common for most very serious injuries, though magical aid would be the obviousm albeit expensive alternative.