I've recieved a lot of tells from people saying my familiar can't talk. Why the farkin not?? Come on, he's a magical beast in a magical world. Take the rakashas as an example, they can talk. And in the hordes of the underdark there's freakin' talking golems! Now, if a golem can talk, why shouldn't a familiar be able to do so? An intellect devourer for example. Instead of a head, it's got nuthin else but a friggin brain! I really don't think it lacks the intelligence to talk. Edit: Intellect devourer = telepathic abilities! Hellu =P

Like i said... This ain't about sience, it's about the fact that we're in the middle of a magical world where your imaginary friend have become visible and is at your desposal!

Edit 2: It's not just the bat, my good 'ol doggie can talk =D

You're asking about the Bat Koli? I would assume? Well first off, it's not just intelligence... they have to have vocal chords capable of producing sound that's audible and not just a screech. Humankinds closest relative, Chimpanzees irl are very smart and can communicate via sign language if trained... they still can't talk. Just because we want it, doesn't mean it always happens. Being a familiar doesn't make it more than it's species, while it may have a not little rapport with the mage in question, it can't just start writting scrolls and talking out loud. That's not to mention the fact that most people in the Underdark would probably rather smush a bat than see it... and if it talks... that would mean one thing... it's a vampire...

Seldorn An intellect devourer for example. Instead of a head, it's got nuthin else but a friggin brain! I really don't think it lacks the intelligence to talk.

The issue, I'd say, isn't so much about intelligence, as about having the physical means necessary to produce the sounds we call speech. Thus, a creature without a mouth could never speak. A creature with a beak, could not speak. A mephit could likely speak, as could a pixie, but there's no way a ball of fuzzy light could do more than tingle cutely.

And, even if your familiar is capable of producing the sounds necessary, I'd check with a DM first, to make sure. Perhaps via the newly added, horribly fancy DM Q&A forum!

Why is it so much of an issue?

I mean...it's rather fun that a bat can talk. I really can't see the problem.

Maybe that's because i'm a nwb RPer, but I would call myself just more liberal.

Well... if we were to suspend game mechanics, the basic theories of gravity and such because I think it'd be fun, we could all have flying monkeys of doom with +100 AB and 250 AC just because. For that matter we could just throw the rule book out the window and have a blast. It doesn't have anything to do with being a relatively new RPer or not, there are basic rules and tenants of the game which we all have to follow... otherwise it's not the same game. Basic physical lack of a vocal chord or a mouth capable of producing audible and intelligible sound isn't just something we can disregard just because it'll be cooler that way. Or if we did, I'm the first to get the Flying Chimpanzee of Doom with Power Word Death and DR +100/100 cause I'd like to pwn a dragon. :P

Blanthis and Wrex are correct, if the familiar is a beast that can't physically verbalize, it can't.

who's to say that creatures cannot send messages to those around them telepathically or through a form of empathy.

When rangers talk to animals they get a 'sense' of what the animal is feeling and even visions of what they feel. If an animal has the ability to project these feelings (empathy) or thoughts (telepathy) outward with any force, I'm sure that other sentient beings could pick up on it.

Now as far as physically forming the words with their mouth, yes that would be a problem. But there are other more creative ways of getting your familiar to talk.

Plus lets not forget that we have weapons and items that are 'intelligent'. An axe definately doesn't have lips, lungs or vocal cords to make noise, but that's never stopped from people from believing that they could talk! Hell those enchanted weapons even MOVE of their own accord through magical means sometimes!

My thoughts are that if a sword or axe can talk, a bat, wolf or twinkle of light can too.

Wrexsoul A creature with a beak, could not speak.

Parrots, mynah birds and even crows can imitate human speech quite convincingly. When I was a kids my neighbors had an African Gray parrot that would reproduce the voices of the family it lived with so well that it could fool them into thinking they heard their parents' or siblings' voices in the other room. However, that's just mimicking often heard sounds and phrases, the bird didn't have the intelligence to actually express thoughts of it's own. It was still entertaining to hear it mimic precisely an exasperated teenager's voice saying, "Mo-om!"

Not even druids can speka to animals. They can communicate by sending pictures. If you want to emote *you see a forest, you see a gnome, you see a fire* to a pc druid okay. But outright talking is a no no.

Actually even a druid won't always understand what he's being shown by the animal and here's always room for misconceptions.

But as said before non talking familiars should'nt talk. Oh and ONLY animals and certain magic beasts (animal like beasts) can be empathied with and as said before its only images which can be confusing even to druids depending on the content.

outcrowd1

Wrexsoul A creature with a beak, could not speak.

Parrots, mynah birds and even crows can imitate human speech quite convincingly. When I was a kids my neighbors had an African Gray parrot that would reproduce the voices of the family it lived with so well that it could fool them into thinking they heard their parents' or siblings' voices in the other room. However, that's just mimicking often heard sounds and phrases, the bird didn't have the intelligence to actually express thoughts of it's own. It was still entertaining to hear it mimic precisely an exasperated teenager's voice saying, "Mo-om!"

But I bet that parrot could'nt say "Hey you over there my master is located in X, would you be interested in working with him to earn one thousand gold if so please meet him at X"

Allow me to change that to "cannot speak more than single, or perhaps double syllables in a coeherent enough way to form proper sentences".

There is quite a large gap between accepting a bat that talks and changing some monkey doom stuff that affects far more important part of the games than pc to pc communication

Let's not extrapolate, it never helps a discussion.

Otherwise, allowing one bat to talk isn't changing the rules as long as there is a valid explanation to its abilities ( I agree that there must be some rationale)

I think that one could say that that particular bat had a magic experiment made on it, thus allowing it to talk. It isn't that hard to believe in something like that, if beforehand you don't mind believing in some of the things the OC's put through.

If the familiar is a Mephit it's alright to have them talk.

I caught alot of flak for talking in giant spider form when I had shift, when the idea that I wouldn't add vocal chords during the spell didn't even register as anything but laughable to people who just saw a mage fundamentally change his own dna in like three seconds.

who's to say that creatures cannot send messages to those around them telepathically or through a form of empathy.

I am.

Familiars aren't telepathic.

Now as far as physically forming the words with their mouth, yes that would be a problem. But there are other more creative ways of getting your familiar to talk.

It's perfectly fine to creatively emote ways to communicate with the familiar while being possessed by a wizard. It is the wizard's mind entering the creature's body. It just can't -talk- if it's not an animal capable of speech, just like it can't fly if the animal is not capable of flight.

I agree with the speaking bit, but I thought there was a link between familiar and mage:

The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated.

Taken from D20...is this just something that happens "to be" in our non-canon enviroment?

The familiar can communicate empathetically on a low level with it's master, to indicate that they're hungry, afraid, angry, etc.

They can -not- chat it up telepathically with whoever is around like was suggested earlier.

Seeing through your familiar, and communicating with things like movement or squeeks, which are delivered back to the master as if he was there, are a no then?

I'll recall an event: Our party was split into two, across a large area, and a certain mage used the familiar to 'stay in touch' with the other party. We roleplayed it by directly asking the mage a question by speaking to the familiar, and the familiar would respond in squeeks, etc. (it was possessed) as if the mage was directly replying.

Should we lay off that?

No, that is fine.

Bats just can't talk, there's no need to confuse the issue and I believe everything has been clear up until this point. Scroll back and read page one!

Metro_Pack It's perfectly fine to creatively emote ways to communicate with the familiar while being possessed by a wizard. It is the wizard's mind entering the creature's body.

Opps!

Metro_Pack The familiar can communicate empathetically on a low level with it's master, to indicate that they're hungry, afraid, angry, etc.

They can -not- chat it up telepathically with whoever is around like was suggested earlier.

(The italics are from the Rules of the Game Archive on the WOTC site.)

This particular module changes the rules somewhat, since familiars are supposed to be normal animals, that are magically enhanced, when they become a familiar. Why wouldn't outsiders be able to communicate more than a normal animal?

Some familiars (such as ravens and some improved familiars) have the ability to speak a language. Such familiars can use their empathic link power, but it still carries only basic emotions. The familiar can converse in the language the familiar knows (provided that the master also knows that language), but the two must be within normal speaking range to do so.

At 5th lvl, they can speak with their master correct?

The familiar and master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication. In effect, the master and familiar have their own private language.

Eavesdroppers can use spells such as tongues to understand a conversation between a master and familiar.

Speaking with the master is an extraordinary ability; using it usually is a free action, just as speaking is.

Familiars that can speak a language (or several languages) can converse with their masters normally if they choose. If they do so, anyone who overhears the conversation understands it, provided that the listener speaks the language used, just as with any other normal conversation.

Now I myself used the "ball of light" to chat up an attractive female. This being IC, for me. However, my character was doing this as a ventriloquist act. If that individual, or any other witness, thought otherwise, that is their fault. Do I really need to contact a DM when I want to RP a little? (Of course now this little trick is ruined for me, with anyone that reads this forum.)

Tabley

Familiar Special Bat Master gains a +3 bonus on Listen checks Cat Master gains a +3 bonus on Move Silently checks Hawk Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in bright light Lizard Master gains a +3 bonus on Climb checks Owl Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadows Rat Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves Raven1 Master gains a +3 bonus on Appraise checks Snake2 Master gains a +3 bonus on Bluff checks Toad Master gains +3 hit points Weasel Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves 1 A raven familiar can speak one language of its master’s choice as a supernatural ability. 2 Tiny viper.

Master Class Level Natural Armor Adj. Int Special 1st–2nd +1 6 Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link 3rd–4th +2 7 Deliver touch spells 5th–6th +3 8 Speak with master 7th–8th +4 9 Speak with animals of its kind 9th–10th +5 10 — 11th–12th +6 11 Spell resistance 13th–14th +7 12 Scry on familiar 15th–16th +8 13 — 17th–18th +9 14 — 19th–20th +10 15 — 19th–20th +10 15 —

Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast). Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated. Because of this empathic link, the master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does. Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help. Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, rats with rodents, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, toads with amphibians, weasels with similar creatures (weasels, minks, polecats, ermines, skunks, wolverines, and badgers). Such communication is limited by the intelligence of the conversing creatures. Spell Resistance (Ex): If the master is 11th level or higher, a familiar gains spell resistance equal to the master’s level + 5. To affect the familiar with a spell, another spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the familiar’s spell resistance. Scry on Familiar (Sp): If the master is 13th level or higher, he may scry on his familiar (as if casting the scrying spell) once per day.

Taken from: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ClassesII.rtf

Tell me... is this DnD? I thought it was Neverwinter Nights, A game that have used "some" of the DnD rules. Can i become an arcane trickster? or a duelist? No.

Seldorn Tell me... is this DnD? I thought it was Neverwinter Nights, A game that have used "some" of the DnD rules. Can i become an arcane trickster? or a duelist? No.

Actually this is D&D. Where do you think the DM's get their rules from? And although, you can't be those classes now, NWN2 is planning on having them.

The DM did quote the guide. I was just asking for a little more clarification. This is EFU, not NWN, if you want to be technical.

Anyway if you want to have a talking familiar that no one would object to, I would go with an imp, memphit or raven

Yeah they cant talk most of the familiar but they are quite capable of behaving in very un-animalike ways, and acting out things possibly. Drawing diagrams in the sand with their little noses etc.

Anyone who's ever had a dog or cat will know that they sometimes seem like they're trying to talk to you, you just arent understanding them, and these arent familiars.

I was under the impression most familiars had a massive increase in intelligence (in addition to them becoming magical creatures) over their natural forms. And although they might not be able to speak since their larynx's dont have that ability/complexity they're still more than capable to communicating things to people other than their master.

(at least thats what I thought, shoot me down if i'm wrong)

It also begs the question what's happening when a druid or ranger is "communicating" with their animal companions/other animals.

A druid can always cast Awaken on their animals in later levels. Familiars increase more and more in intelligence as their master's level increases. At some point they are smarter then your average commoner and at level 15 (I think) they have an IQ of 150. Anyway, the second table I posted shows familiar's intelligence in relation to the master's level.

Vifur Smalterk I caught alot of flak for talking in giant spider form when I had shift, when the idea that I wouldn't add vocal chords during the spell didn't even register as anything but laughable to people who just saw a mage fundamentally change his own dna in like three seconds.

Seldorn Tell me... is this DnD? I thought it was Neverwinter Nights, A game that have used "some" of the DnD rules. Can i become an arcane trickster? or a duelist? No.

Tristan A druid can always cast Awaken on their animals in later levels. Familiars increase more and more in intelligence as their master's level increases.

If you meant to increase int of animal with awaken, it doesn't. It increases animals wisdom, not intelligence.

*nudges discussion back in the general area of the topic at hand*

It's been explained and duly noted by a DM. In EfU, no, they don't talk in the sense of having a nice little dialogue. It's a familiar, it's not a PC, it's not a brilliant scientist trapped in the body of a bat, it's not uber magic, totally unique to it's species and therefore possessing abilities that no other member of it's species possesses. Simple, easy and to the point.

Be creative and have the bat snoop around in your pocket searching for food, yes, perfectly acceptable. Have the raven squawk something resembling "crakah" when it wants food. But it's immenently clear (according to the DMs of EfU) that no familiar that doesn't actually possess vocal chords or inherent ability to speak and rationalize like people... simply can't in this setting, let alone have nice little original and creative conversations. Sorry, no matter how creative we get with our neat little stories and ideas, some things just don't happen. I'm sure if I really wanted to, I could make up some really long drawn out story about why I became a flying monkey who could talk too... but it's simply not going to happen. It's just a familiar, not Tr0m incarnate, not Einstein in a bat, not a Nobel peace prize winner trapped in a raven, it's a being that has a connection or relationship with a mage or sorcerer.

Just a tought to all of this, with due respect what the DMs said earlier.

I simply laughed my a** off, when I first met (both IC and OOC) Nebbel and Koli on this server. It was hilarious. :D

I had fun with it as -I'm sure- almost everyone else. And we didn't think about vocal cords, or DnD rules. We RPed, and had a good time.

It's all about RP, that's why we are on this server, and not on battle.net, playing Diablo 2. Rules are not written in stone. A lot of basic rules are changed in EfU. This can be changed as well.

I have been DMing myself in pen&pencil RPGs since more than 10 years. I totally understand, that letting the familiars and companions speak like a human can lead to abuses, so it's right it have some filter in the process. But to negating it entirely -well, we loose some excellent RP potential here.

Basically making familiars non-speakers is fine. But I suggest to keep this possibility open by applications to DMs, or by having a quest specifically to enable speech ability in the familiars as a reward.

Just my 0.2 pence tough...

Yeah but as long as you don't apply for non-conform things like speaking bat familiars, I think they should be treated like standard (moon)elves that just happen to have obsidian skin (and thus are "supposed" to be drow). They just shouldn't exist.

I agree with nagy, theres many many stories that can bring about the interactions In general familiars that ARE playing their stats cant speak, but this is a world of magic and there may well be ways to make a bat speak normally through it.(in fact it may not even BE a bat, it might be a quasit with a permanent illusion around it etc) They are the exceptions to the rule but this is exactly what makes things interesting and worth playing. I simply cant see why boring run o' the mill has to be the flavour of the month (and millenium). The d.ms allow applications through for exceptions all the time and as long as the player makes it worth it to the server they get in. Having said that the "general" rule should sit but the exceptions must be allowed when they improve the enjoyment of people on the server.

Even linelles example could have an exception, just off the top of my head the moon elf could have been affected by magic that permanently changed the shade of their skin as some sort of cruel trick. You could probably make up quite a decent story about the life of that moon elf, how they go to where the are and what they had to put up with before the time they found themselves in sanctuary (probably the worst place for any drow appearing elf)

I find it hard to believe that the only way someone can have fun in EfU is by making things that do not exist... exist. Sure maybe I'd have a blast playing a flying monkey of doom that was somehow the spawn of a monkey and an angel or a flying elf or something, but that's beside the point. I, or any creative player who has the ability to entertain others and RP well can do so within the realm of the rules and the exceptions they choose to make. Have I thought up an idea before and been told no, it's not feasible or acceptable? Absolutely... was I somehow stopped in my enjoyment of the server? Hell no... I moved on and used what little creative juices I have to think of another concept that did fit into the setting and rules and promptly began having fun. It's not about twisting every little nuance and rule so I can do whatever I want however I want simply because someone's creative enough to imagine anything... someone who is creative and RPs so very well will do very well here or on any RPing server, otherwise if DMs have to start changing the rules for everyone who thinks of something funny and neato, we'll all start having such groovy ideas that'd be just swell, that we should just stop having DMs or rules... since it'll further the RP to have talking bats and flying monkeys and sun elves with really really dark sun tans that look and act like drow, so they should get the racial bonuses of drow, and halflings who really act like goblins or kobolds and should get those benefits too. I find it hard to imagine that simply because anyone is told sorry, that one thing/idea isn't acceptable or realistic will somehow be unable to use their excellent RP or creative energy in other ways to both get enjoyment out of the server and provide a great time to everyone here.

"I find it hard to believe that the only way someone can have fun in EfU is by making things that do not exist... exist."

We all doing this. What, did you saw an elf ever on a street at your neighbourhood? :)

"it'll further the RP to have talking bats and flying monkeys and sun elves with really really dark sun tans that look and act like drow, so they should get the racial bonuses of drow, and halflings who really act like goblins or kobolds and should get those benefits too."

Speaking familiars can be great fun, and have RP potential. All the rest you mention is powergaming and abusing category. Not the same leauge, I'm not even sure how they are got into this.

Nagypapi Speaking familiars can be great fun, and have RP potential. All the rest you mention is powergaming and abusing category. Not the same leauge, I'm not even sure how they are got into this.

IIRC, this wasn't about talking familiars as much as a talking bat. It's already been settled that certain familiars do speak (mephits, imps, ravens, etc.), but fact of the matter is, bats do not, nor will they ever. If someone wants a talking familiar, fine, then pick a type that can speak. It's not like there isn't enough of them already.

It's true that talking familiars can add greatly to roleplaying, but familiars that shouldn't be able to, yet still do it, can detract just as much from it. I don't even think something like this should be open for applications, simply because of the complications a(nother) talking bat would lead to (and complications that would rise for each can't-talk-but-does-it-anyways-familiar).

chaosprism Even linelles example could have an exception, just off the top of my head the moon elf could have been affected by magic that permanently changed the shade of their skin as some sort of cruel trick. You could probably make up quite a decent story about the life of that moon elf, how they go to where the are and what they had to put up with before the time they found themselves in sanctuary (probably the worst place for any drow appearing elf)

Yes... I can also justify playing a Sandwich. You have to take a regular sandwich, then you polymorph-others it into any creature, then there's some kind of spell or ritual that lets you change your body with that of some creature and then there's a way to make it permanent, so you do it with the polymorphed sandwich (let's assume it is a rothe, for the time being), destroy your real body, and wait until the polymorph duration ran out.. and voila! You will be a sandwich.

But that is all besides the point.. playing a dark-skinned "non-drow" elf without any application and things is just against server rules, and a "mute" yet talking familiar is just on the same level if you ask me! Things tend to get out of control easily, and even while Forgotten Realms is a high-magic setting, EfU on the other hand, is not. Just look at the level range. Why would a level 2 - 7 wizard have any sort of mephit with a permanent illusion around it? I always said if you have to go outside the rules to create something, then you aren't doing a good job. That's all, thanks for reading :P