I've noticed a few quirks with my AC that came into effect yesterday.

Randomly, my bracers (+1 Armour modifier) dont stack anymore, even though I dont have any other items which give an armour mofifier bonus. Also, mage armour doesnt work anymore. I get some message saying that the spell wont work on heavily armoured creatures, or something to that effect.

Also, I used to receive non-stacking messages from magic vestment, but, since yesterday, I dont.

I've talked to a fair few players in tells about this, and all of us have no idea...so like, what the?

Yes, AC system has been changed.

As of a few days ago, magic vestment has been decreased in power somewhat (+1 levels 1-6, +2 7-12, +3 13+).

Bracers of AC now only work on people not wearing armor.

Mage Armor now gives +4 AC on people not wearing armor.

The stacking bug has been fixed.

I'd suggest that you include this fact in the item description so that characters don't spend over 1000 gold for an item that is essentially worthless if they wear armor.

Any chance we can DM cash this item OOCly at sale price to balance this "bug fixing"?

And perhaps a heads up here on the forum when you make such changes so that you aren't bombarded by pesky tells and forum questions of this nature.

Thanks.

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/11/1155/ac-skill-stacking-issues/index.html?amp;highlight=armor+armour+stacking

It was clearly noted and regularly updated on the forum since December.

Sorry, but if you think that thread clearly explains that Bracers of Armor +1 that you can buy from a merchant and are equippable won't work with armor - I beg to disagree.

Spell scrolls are clearly marked in their description as to who can use them. Items that are class-specific are clearly marked and usually unequippable (red) on top of that.

As almost all fighters and clerics wear some type of armor, this "bug fixing" makes this expensive magical item completely worthless for them. Why you don't think that a new player spending 1200+ gold on an apparently valuable that actually doesn't help them is a problem is confusing to me.

Since my charater has blown hundreds of gold experimenting with coloring his armor and how to make scrolls and potions, the devaluation of an item that cost a signficant amount doesn't bother me all that much.

But if it's easily avoidable, I'd think it would be a good thing to prevent this from occuring in the future.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

I guess my question was, why can't we stack AC (armor) bonus'?

My character wears only light armor (halfing rogue) and has one of the lowest AC's usually on a given team. My armor gives a +2 AC (armor bonus) and the bracers would boost that by +1 so I'd end up with only a +3 total, which is still less than medium grade armor.

My other bonuses work they way they should such as deflection and natural.

Just curious.

I actually think the thread metropakt referred you to, Gwydion, is quite clear for those of us familiar with the technical jargon of DnD. In any case, your problem shouldn't be too much of an issue, since the item in question is now useless to Clerics, Fighters and other armored classes, but is still quite in favor with unarmored classes, such as mages, monks (these, especially) and any other unusual concepts that may have space for a +1 Armor AC bonus in their stats sheet.

- Kiaring

djspectre I guess my question was, why can't we stack AC (armor) bonus'?

My character wears only light armor (halfing rogue) and has one of the lowest AC's usually on a given team. My armor gives a +2 AC (armor bonus) and the bracers would boost that by +1 so I'd end up with only a +3 total, which is still less than medium grade armor.

My other bonuses work they way they should such as deflection and natural.

Just curious.

The fact that a halfling rogue with light armor has less AC reflects his placement in combat. Surely, you're nowhere near the specialized monk or fighter in terms of AC, but that shouldn't technically matter, seeing as your job is to sneak attack folks, for maximum combat efficiency, not frontline. Sure, extra AC is nice, but for fighters and frontliners it's utterly necessary. For range rogues, it's just a perk. Melee rogues have many ways at their disposal to enhance their AC to compete with that of a fighter. Really, it all comes down to how different classes have different roles.

- Kiaring

I'm glad these items have finally been reduced in power accordingly. I never used them because they were never intend to work in armour. Finally not wasting that gold pays off!

I consider myself moderately versed in rules and such. I understand the concept of stacking.

Did bracers AC +1 stack on the Official Campaign? I can't recall, but I thought it did.

So for future Newbs to avoid spending 1200+ gold they have to do an exhaustive forum search AND understand that the jargon of that thread?

Excuse me if I think that's a unnecessarily nasty lesson to people that weren't here a year ago and/or aren't experts on the technical aspects of the latest version of the rules.

As a matter of fact, I think it's hypocritical to look down on people that focus too much on stats because its RP based server, then turn around and say, "Sorry newb, tough shit on that huge amount of wasted gold. You need to understand the technical jargon of DnD better."

I just thought that if there was an easy way to clue in the less "expert" players that happen to wander over to this server just to have fun role-playing - that it was worth discussion.

Isn't a theme of this server to "help the newbs?".

Be it NWN or PnP D&D, I always thought AC enhanced Bracers were stackable and useable by anyone, except for those who could not wear metal (if metal bracers) or unless otherwise noted. So this is news to me.

For something that costs that much in EfU, I don't see why not have it be used by all classes in general. Because front-line fighters already have high AC is not a good reason to me. That is part of what defines their class. They need that to stay alive and if AC modifiers are hard to find anyway, a +1 added bonus at a high cost in gold is not much of a game breaker. It is a reward for gathering and being able to save that much gold over what probably took many levels of surviving.

If the reason it does not work is because you wear METAL, then that is reasonable and should be stated. But because you wear ARMOR, just doesn't make sense.

Changes will be made to better advertise the change/correction. You're quite right that some people will be confused, and thanks for making the suggestion.

For all of you who have been using bracers of armor for all this time, I'm sorry, but the value of the item has decreased, however there are still people out there who would use them.

Hey I think it is all cool. i wish I had looked to this thread a bit earlier as in 15 minutes earlier before buying a bracer then selling it. But its just a game and it makes sense to me. I do remember I long debate some where on the forums or irc. And if newbs end up spending 1000 something gold it will be a mistake they will never forget. Like me... Its all a learning process and just take it with a grain of sand/salt/sugar/whatever-the-damn-thing-is.

This bites... understandable and forwarned (although I had read the stacking thread and did not understand the implications in this case), but still, it bites.

My rogue has range capabilities but I have always focused on the melee, especially because I am frequently the scout for parties I am a part of.

I don't own any elaborately enchanted armor, and the only AC modifier I get besides Dex and Leather armor is from the Bracers I was wearing. Even with the +1 stacking from my expensive bracers, I have on several ocasions been crit-fugued from maximum health.... once by a ranged attack.

Short of finding the improbably rare enchanted armors (I have yet to see any) is there any other method of increasing my AC?

*edit* I assume that any AC improving jewelry or items besides armor will not stack with armor now?

*edit* Can we get a list of what will and won't work with one another so rogues and rangers can find ways of improving their AC?

*edit* I assume that any AC improving jewelry or items besides armor will not stack with armor now?

AC types don't stack with themselves, other than dodge. So, only Armor AC does not stack with armor, because worn armor also uses Armor type AC. Deflection and natural armor types of AC will still stack with Armor AC, but not with themselves (they never did).

*edit* Can we get a list of what will and won't work with one another so rogues and rangers can find ways of improving their AC?

See above.

For example, if you have a chainshirt (AC4-armor), Ring of protection +1 (AC1 Deflection) and amulet of natural armor +1 (AC1 Natural Armor), you will have +SIX AC.

If you have a chainshirt (AC4-armor), bracers of armor+1 (AC1 armor), a ring of protection +1 (1 AC deflection), and a ring of protection +2 (2AC deflection), you will have +SIX AC also, since it takes the higher value when multiple items of the same type are worn.

Leurnid *edit* I assume that any AC improving jewelry or items besides armor will not stack with armor now?

*edit* Can we get a list of what will and won't work with one another so rogues and rangers can find ways of improving their AC?

• Deflection - Acquired through AC bonuses on staves, rings, melee weapons, helmets, cloaks, belts, gloves, and ranged weapons that use ammunition.
• Armor - Acquired through wearing armor and the AC bonuses on bracers.
• Natural Armor - Acquired through the AC bonuses on amulets.
• Shield - Acquired through holding shields.
• Dodge - Acquired through AC bonuses on boots.

Great post Arkov...thank you. That certainly rings a bell.

Maybe those who bought bracers thinking otherwise can just contact you DMs in game and get a replacement flavor? I hear the chocolate is really good...as always.

I just sold mine, easily done, and doesnt take up any DM time.

great post arkov. Wish I had read a post like this back when I first bought the game, since I was a fan of fantasy games but at the time knew nothing about the D&D specifics.

Armor Classes (AC) are somewhat of a tough topic to conquer for the new D&D or NWN player because they have so many ways to modify them.

Something Arkov left off was that you get boosts to your AC the higher your dexterity goes and for every 5 ranks in the tumble skill.

These bonus's work like this: (someone correct me on these next statements if I'm wrong any of it)

You are completely naked (no items of any kind equiped) and your AC is 9 and your Dexterity is 10. If you increased your Dex to 12, which would give you +1 bonus to that ability, that bonus ALSO is applied to your AC giving you now an AC of 10 instead of 9. HOWEVER, this +1 bonus is a DODGE bonus, not a NATURAL bonus, even though it may look like a natural one because it boosted your AC when you were naked.

As far as the Tumble skill goes, for every 5 skill points you put into this skill you also get a +1 bonus to your AC, and again, I believe, this is a DODGE bonus, not a Natural one. So if you have 10 ranks in Tumble, you would gain a +2 bonus to your AC

Like Arkov said, dodge bonuses can stack on top of one another so you can have a dex of 20 (granting a +5 dodge) and a Tumble of 10 (granting a +2 dodge) and you get a +7 AC bonus to top of whatever other armor your and items you have.

Just to give you an example of how this would look, lets say a rogue has: 20 dex (+5 dodge) 10 tumble (+2 dodge) wears light armor (+2 armor) Has a cloack (+1 deflection) has an amulet (+1 Natural) and a base AC of 9 (natural) to start with at character creation

Giving this rogue an ac of 21. Not too shabby. Lets also not forget then that Halflings also get a dodge bonus (inherent bonus feat called 'small stature') on top of all that, when fighting anything bigger than they are (including dwarves). so a halfing rogue is damn hard to hit.

Anyway, I hope this completes the AC picture for anyone not sure about it all.

The above is good, but note that base AC in NWN is 10 not 9 as stated.

His example would yield an AC of 22.

Also, your armor type will allow only a certain amount of Dex bonus to be used. A chain shirt allows up to a 4 Dex bonus total. So a 17 Dex character would get +3 AC bonus and would only get 1 more improvement to his AC when using Dex improving potions, even if his overall Dex bonus is improved to +5.

djspectre As far as the Tumble skill goes, for every 5 skill points you put into this skill you also get a +1 bonus to your AC, and again, I believe, this is a DODGE bonus, not a Natural one. So if you have 10 ranks in Tumble, you would gain a +2 bonus to your AC

Presently, if you have put 10 ranks in Tumble, you will get a +2 bonus to your AC even if your actual effective Tumble score is negative (due to, for example, wearing full plate, or using a tower shield). Do not expect this to remain the case forever. At some point, this will be changed so that the AC bonus from Tumble only applies when you have the effective skill ranks to back it up -- so a Fighter/Rogue wearing full plate and carrying a tower shield, and thus having a large penalty to Tumble putting him below zero effective ranks, will no longer get an AC bonus from his base ranks in Tumble.

Bindragon Also, your armor type will allow only a certain amount of Dex bonus to be used. A chain shirt allows up to a 4 Dex bonus total. So a 17 Dex character would get +3 AC bonus and would only get 1 more improvement to his AC when using Dex improving potions, even if his overall Dex bonus is improved to +5.

Yes I totally forgot about this.

The larger and heartier the armor is the less effect your dexterity has on your Armor class.

So if you are considering upgrading from: "medium armor" (+4 AC, limit of +4 dex bonus) to Full plate (+8 AC, limit of +1 dex bonus) keep in mind that any abilities, saves or skills that rely on dexerity WILL ALSO BE REDUCED IN EFFECTIVENESS.

So when picking armor make sure that you're not also impeding your ability to do some other more important tasks......like stealthing for a rogue.

So if you are considering upgrading from: "medium armor" (+4 AC, limit of +4 dex bonus) to Full plate (+8 AC, limit of +1 dex bonus) keep in mind that any abilities, saves or skills that rely on dexerity WILL ALSO BE REDUCED IN EFFECTIVENESS.

Incidentally, ranged weapon AB/reflex saving throws are an exception to this rule.

One way would be to actually make these bracers, bracers of deflection. That would give +1 deflection Ac which would stack with armor. (but then it wouldnt stack with shield spell which the class bracers were meant to be used withm but then again rings are normall deflection AC as well) And given how they're used (and enchanted) it's not that much of a long shot for them to be DEFLECTING things as they get near.

The other option I think is even better is SHIELD Ac.. so if you wear no shield then the bracers will be like a small shield AC wise. If you're wearing a medium shield or above they give no benefit. (keep in mind you're paying a lot more money for this than a small shield :D)

Given that unarmed, 2-handed and two-weapon combatant are often DEPICTED (in a fantasy sense) to wear bracers to help deflect weapon blows it's not that far fetched for enchanted bracers to do exactly that.. act like a small shield or buckler.

Anyway thats just an option.

p.s. I'm very happy mage armor is doing what it should do now well done arkov :)

The AC "flavors" for objects in NWN are actually hard-coded, so bracers can't easily be switched over to Deflection or Shield; this goes for other things as well, so staves can never give Natural, boots can never give Armor, etc.

Yeah a bit silly design wise, I wont ever know why they did it that way.

It's like having DC's on to hit items that are specfic numbers of their choice 16,18,20,24 etc. not being able to set it yourself to your own value , it didnt make sense back then and it doesnt now.

They compartmentalised somethings that made no sense to be treated that way. Bioware have a bit of legacy of simplifying complex systems when implementing them and condensing and simplifying the parts that didnt need to be for no good reason. Then adding options that are meaningless. Separate entry lines for different values of the same thing in a 2da, instead of qualifier values, 40 versions of a familiar rather than one version with information saying what will get added at what level. I really could go on and on but theres no point; we work with what we have.