Hi There,

I htink it is a shame that Metro lowered the boom on the Quadra thread. It may be that general discussions was not the right place for such threads.

Personally I think it is a great idea to be able to discuss OOC what people think and feel about various characters as this will help to stimulate depth of characters and also can be used wake style after a character has died to give insights into who and what the character was about.

We all appreciate the time and energy the DMs put in on EFU but likewise a lot of players put in a lot of time and energy as well to bring their characters to life. This is one way in which those players can be rewarded as well by seeing just how wide an impactthey have had.

Off the top of my head I would love to know more about Delgardo, Mylin, Dell, Quadra, Delvak, Patrick etc

My Suggestion is to setup a new forum that is dedicated to discussing character building etc.

Cheers, Nestek

I concur. I think it's a darn shame, honestly, that we don't have a place for such things. I kinda thought that General Discussion, you know, would be a good place for discussions of a General sort but gosh... :oops: !

I actually wouldn't wisht to know that much about character like so. I think these things are best find out IC and that's part of the fun. I don't see any reason to discuss of character building any more than we usually now do.

lovethesuit I concur. I think it's a darn shame, honestly, that we don't have a place for such things. I kinda thought that General Discussion, you know, would be a good place for discussions of a General sort but gosh... :oops: !

I like the concept as well. I put a lot of thought and effort into my primary characters (see the Kata/Shauna threads in the journals forum for examples).

If something like this was around, I could post the rest of the stuff I had for Eowung. There was so much about her only one or two characters knew, and some stuff no one found out because of the manner of her death.

This must happen to a lot of characters. It'd be nice to see a place for them here.

Agreed, Poika.

I think that between letters, public notices, and journals, there are plenty of opportunities to get glimpses inside the heads of characters.

But... When a character is perma-dead, posting their bio, background, and motivations as a post-mortum-autobiography would be a nice way to get a little closure and give people a chance to see inside the character's head.

Agreed - it would - also allow people to ask questions etc that they couldn;t get answered in game.

I think its much better, and you learn a hell of a lot more if you find a person you consider a good roleplayer and talk to them about your character. Posts and PMs are a lot less conduscive to building anything skill wise as a roleplayer.

The detractors from this idea are the ones without anything in the way of supporting evidence. The people are clamoring for a Character Discussion forum! HEED OUR CALL!

I would have to say I agree Lovethe suit.

If people do not want to read about other characters then they are free to simply avoid a forum dedicated to such a purpose.

I really like the idea about being able to discuss PKd characters and also agree that it is better to learn about current characters in game. In general each person is diffeent - there are those of us that would like such a thread and to be able to receive feedback on characters. Those that don't want to know and don't want feedback have no need to browse that particular forum.

There is one other aspect that I thnk gets forgotten - in EFU we only have written word and emotes to try and convey thoughts, feelings and ideas for at time very complex issues. A hell of a lot of communication and understadning about a person comes from non-verbal queues - allowing a forum where people can flesh out the personality and traits of a character will go a long way to filling in these non-verbal queues.

Cheers Nestek

I agree with Leurnid. I used to play a MUD where people generally didn't talk about their characters while they were alive, but when they permadied there'd be a forum section where you basically got to look behind the curtain and see their role/background/motivations and comment about them, I thought that was pretty cool.

That does sound good.

Making sure it didnt contain any spoilers on ongoing plots or characters though, would have to be important. Otherwise, opening a section on here where dead characters are revealed would be very sweet.

It's got my vote (not that that's worth much :wink: )

lovethesuit The detractors from this idea are the ones without anything in the way of supporting evidence. The people are clamoring for a Character Discussion forum! HEED OUR CALL!

Crap.

Here, you want support or evidence. Sure. *shrug*

I've got 15 years of DM experience.

I've got 6 years of solid theater experience in acting.

I've read approximately two full books on running roleplaying games, not 'gaming books' but actual books on theory, roleplaying, plot development. The books were printed by gaming companies TSR and WhiteWolf, can't recall either books names.

I spent four years running a 60 player LARP.

I spent three years running City of Arabel as a DM. I was in charge of character development, applications, and guiding roleplaying.

I've written at least one guide to roleplaying that I know is stickied in no less than four PW forums.

I've taken seminars and classes on developing individuals and their talents and have adequetely transfered this skill for management theory to roleplaying games as quirky as it sounds.

So those are my credentials.

Here's the rest to look over.

1. These posts about characters are 90% "your character is great, you're a great roleplayer, I like the way you emote." Some 99% of these posts contain nothing constructive, nothing truly specific and do nothing more than build the ego of the player of that character.

2. Any real growth as a player, the supposed purpose of these posts is only accomplished by constructive feed back. This is a communication wherein the feed back points out the flaws inherent in the player's portrayals as well as thier successes.

3. Most players have room to work. Few wish to really hear it however. I speak again from personal experience. It often takes me four or five conversations with a player who *came* to me looking for advice before they'll admit that I am right when I point out areas for improvement.

4. I've gone over 10 "what about my character" posts on two sets of forums. In each case, nothing negative was said about the person's character. Although, as an observer with a lot of experience to fall back on--I could have said many very productive criticisms on each character.

5. These replies are always impersonal and very vague. They lack some of the things required for good feedback--specific details, specific areas for improvement, lists of strengths and weaknesses, goals on how to obtain required results.

6. Everyone's play style tends to differ, but certain opinions likely matter more. While you can get bland replies on a forum post, if you go to people whose roleplay style you greatly enjoy--you will find you learn and can be challenged by them more.

There are just a few solid examples, backed up by someone with lots of knowledge about roleplaying games. I'm an elitist jerk to an extent in this post, sighting my "cred" and all of that--but really, I honestly do know what I'm talking about here.

If you really want to know what people think of your character, think to ask the people who you are impressed by. Go to specific people who you know the community looks up to as a good roleplayer. Go to the DMs. Don't make a generic "How cool am I?" thread. The only people who will respond will be people who think you're really cool and say so.

If you want to improve as a roleplayer, go to the people who will tell you what to do to improve. Not the people who are just going to be nice and tell you how good you are.

Unless you're just posting to hear how good you are. Which is, essentially silly and doubt anyone would want to do that.

I can see how someone would enjoy getting to read this sort of thing about characters they once knew on the one hand, and that someone might like to explain how their own characters worked on the other.

For my own part, I have to admit it would be nice to be able to peek behind the curtain in some cases. The two concerns I have would be (1) living characters shouldn't give this out, since I feel it diminishes the "magic" of the game, and (2) you have to remember courtesy for still-living characters when it comes to any spoilers.

Personally, I think the best way of doing this is to expand the journal of a dead character. You can add in all the things that you considered too FOIG for a posted journal while the character was around, but again, mind the spoilers and be courteous to still-living characters.

I do agree with Orob that this sort of thing isn't going to be nearly as productive as one-on-one coaching, although if knowledgable people actually decided to put in constructive criticism, it could offer just as many pointers in the right direction. It might be a fun thread in some cases, and worthwhile for different reasons, but it's not the ideal way to go about character improvement.

In summary, non-essential, probably interesting in a few cases.

Oh, and...

Oroborous How awesomely qualified he is.

Oroborous Unless you're just posting to hear how good you are. Which is, essentially silly and doubt anyone would want to do that.

:P *snicker*

*Pure topic pwnage by Oro*

I agree completly. I doubt people would be willing to post anything negative constructive or not for fear of offending people anyway.

I agree that an RIP section could be created, but I'm undecided whether it should be IC or OOC. A place to "pay your respects" or "say your peace" might be better suited and more interesting as IC.

I think the journal section is most suitable for exposing your PCs feelings and characteristics, even though it is oddly and unrealistically voyeuristic.

The heavily credentialled Oro hits it on the button in every way and especially where we should go for advice...in game and through Tells.

MrGrendel

Oh, and...

Oroborous How awesomely qualified he is.

Oroborous Unless you're just posting to hear how good you are. Which is, essentially silly and doubt anyone would want to do that.

:P *snicker*

*flips Mr. Grendel the bird* :oops:

Not many people seem to know this but there is an IRC channel for disscussion of applications which could be used as a place to get info on character ideas and roleplaying suggestions. Not sure exactly what it is #efuapp I think or something like that.

I'd like a froum for it though myself, if you didn't want to read it you don't have to. I enjoyed and felt like I learned a little bit from the topics I've read of this so far.

Zaldar Not many people seem to know this but there is an IRC channel for disscussion of applications which could be used as a place to get info on character ideas and roleplaying suggestions. Not sure exactly what it is #efuapp I think or something like that.

I don't think a specific forum is necessary at all. For the most part, I want to find out about characters IG or if they really pique my interest, by reading journals or fiction about them. If you want us to see your character's motivations, give us some entertaining stories about them. As for criticism and advice, or just friendly discussion about your PCs, in game tells and private chats on IRC have served me pretty well so far. If I want to know more about your PC, I'll ask you, if you want to know what I think of your PC, ask me.

Oroborous wrote:

:lol: Words :lol:

In response, everybody's favourite lovethesuit

Why don't you tell us what you -really- think? ^_^

I sought neither praise nor a teaching position when I made my thread. I am everything that's wrong with roleplaying, and I know it. Anybody thinking to learn from me is certainly going to be disappointed. However; I'm willing to bet that a forum like the one being asked for here is not as doomed as you believe.

We have seen various pats on the back and inside references that belong in PMs, sure, but that's not all that could be posted. Quadra's thread was available for questions in the good faith that people wouldn't metagame. Anybody interested enough in this server to peruse the forums, let alone care about a single character's thread, is probably not the sort to metagame what they learn there.

How about a rule against replying to character threads without contributing? How about restricting it solely to characters who have died? How about removing replies altogether and just making a place for people to say what they want about their specific characters or information that wouldn't fit on a reasonable Description window?

Society and roleplay are less than likely to crumble under the overwhelming maelstrom of OOC information. Metagaming is something that can be resisted, defeated, and enforced. For those interested in it: What is wrong with building somebody's ego? Also, you have to remember that while the inclination may be to just give an indistinct thumbs-up to somebody, it's easy enough to issue guidelines for a forum like this.

No single opinion matters more than any other, and it's a real shame that you think that, Oroo? Certain people may be better able to articulate their opinions, but given enough time and the oppourtunity to do so, they may just surprise you. I will concede that some people (yourself included) may have more experience than others and be in a better position to make such criticisms. You, in turn, should concede that experience can equal bias and that an unprofessional, un-tarnished viewpoint can be just as constructive, if not more so.

It doesn't have to be a place for criticisms, or egos, or learning, or anything like that. It -could- be a place to express the characters you're proud of, maybe even for those who don't get to play with you, and in turn have a bit of a fun read. What's so wrong with that?

crowdout1 If you want us to see your character's motivations, give us some entertaining stories about them.

This could be a place to post those stories, maybe after they were told in person!

I say, if I want to let everybody know that Quadra's first kitty was named Snickles, dangit, I should have a place to do that; don't you think? I explained how I came up with some of my ideas, and I rambled about some of the old quirks that were cut in production. Come on, admit it; secretly, you all want people to know you and your characters, for whatever reasons you may have.

I want to write the Character Creator's Commentary! Won't you please let it be a special feature on this beautiful DVD we call EfU?

^^^^^ whutta n00b amirite?

Ego's are abad thing. If your doing something wrong and you build up an ego about it because everybodies too nice to say. You may continue doing so and make people really just want to alienate you and your characters.

I think a place to discuss the motivations of retired characters is a possibility, but there are a number of issues with RP congratulation avenues (others being RpotW/RpotM awards on other servers). Honest criticism and constructive suggestions is just fine, and so is compliments and encouragement, but in my experience it is best directed to the individual involved or on IRC or another semi-private/informal setting.

The thing is, and this is sort of the nature of the internet, but unfortunately there's a certain percentage of people who will get really upset if people don't voluntarily decide to talk about their characters, or who will notice little things like people complimenting one characters more than their own, or otherwise have issues with projects of this kind. There are also people (particularly new players) who will get a sense from reading forums that there's an "in crowd" of role-players who all congratulate each other, or otherwise feel "out of the loop."

I don't mind discussion of a particular awesome moment of RP in general discussion, but I have to be honest my instincts with things of this kind makes me very cautious.

Everyone can have opinions.

Its silly to think all those opinions are equally valid.

For example, if you're having really bad chest pains, are short of breath, and your vision is blurry--you get the opinion of a doctor, not a historian.

If you want to improve as a roleplayer, you ask an experienced good roleplayer. Not someone brand new to gaming, roleplay, or theater.

Now if you want to express the opinions "Joe's character rocks! I enjoy playing with him". Yes, your opinion is very valid or if you want to say "Joe's character rocks, but he's only got an 8 CHA you could do more to portray that like farting every now and then!" This two is a very valid opinion.

If you want to express the opinion that:

While Joe's character is portrayed very well as a cold and callous, overall powerhungry man who can be charming and yet appears to be too distant from other people to care to use that charm. Yet ultimately, I find Joe's character to be flat dimensionally, lacking in a fully developed and living persona. Joe should consider not just his character's drive for power--but what that power means to his character, how will it be used, what will he sacrifice or not to get it, why? what might he give up his power to obtain that is more important? What caused him to be distant from other characters. I feel that if Joe considered these questions more, his roleplaying would not only develop further and create a more convincing multidimensional character but that that character would also find it easier to contribute towards the over arching multidimensional metaplot of the server.

Then you can't just get the opinion of anyone who says "your character rocks!" Just like that doctor you have to see to hear about heart pains. You'll also likely learn more from those that know more.

I am clearly biased, I favor a very intensive character acting style rather than a motivational or stereotype style of acting. All three 'styles' of roleplaying are equally valid but I'd clearly push anyone coming to me for advice in that direction. Yet, I'm more aware of my bias already than a complete newbie who still doesn't understand terms like "metaplot", "characterization", "motivation (in acting)", "character dynamics" etc.

It doesn't mean other opinions mean less, but it does mean certain opinions probably have more meaning to express. Just like with the chest pain example. If you asked me (a trained historian) I"d say "sounds bad, you should definitly go to the hospital". That's a very valid opinion but doesnt' say much. A doctor would say "You're having an acute agina. Its a very serious medical condition akin to a heart attack but not as life threatening. We'll have you take two tylonol immediately, then you need to be propped up on cushions. We'll get you to the hospital and run some bloodwork and tests just to double check. Afterwards, I suggest taking a few medications to thin your blood and keep your heart strong an dpumping regularly" That opinion is also valid, but does a hell of a lot more to help you know what's going on.

I second what Oro has stated. The threads usually serve only as a superficial I love me section with no true passage of real ideas on plot or character development. Instead it degenerates to an I love your concept / I love your one or two emotes that you perpetually do. Longterm feedback and criticism, atleast to me, are what can shed new light on problems you may be having on your development as a role player or on your developing and playing a character to new levels.

For that to happen you need a dialogue, and usually for that a special IRC chat with the dm's or a player you respect a lot for their character portrayal serves better. One reason is because real dialogue is tough on a forum board, it's a posting and not a conversation, it's a more static form of dialogue and not fluid enough to really discuss/debate issues quickly.

If you want help why not pm a dm or a player you respect and set up an IRC chat time to go over your concerns. The dialogue is better and more fluid, and more can be accomplished.

That said, the most pure way to learn how to be a good roleplayer in my opinion is to apprentice yourself to one of sorts. Nothing will serve you better than seeing a good player portray his/her character well. It allows you to watch what they do over time and then compare/contrast that to yourself and your characterizations. That said, it's a long process, and comes from many often fleeting interactions with good players. Even then, it only works if you are looking for what you can do to take yourself to the next level, not your character.

Just my two cents from an old dixie cup.

edit for this: Just because it broaches a life threatening topic, it's aspirin or nitroglycerin tablets for the angina, or beta-blockers if you are on them to stabalize it. Tylenol may only mask the pain rather than giving a good heart protective response and mess up the exam in the emergency department. Nothing is worse for a physician than when someone comes in with complaints of chest pain/other subjective pain complaints and says "But I took pain killers before I came", because the physical exam on that person is then not valuable as an assesment.

The Beggar

edit for this: Just because it broaches a life threatening topic, it's aspirin or nitroglycerin tablets for the angina, or beta-blockers if you are on them to stabalize it. Tylenol may only mask the pain rather than giving a good heart protective response and mess up the exam in the emergency department. Nothing is worse for a physician than when someone comes in with complaints of chest pain/other subjective pain complaints and says "But I took pain killers before I came", because the physical exam on that person is then not valuable as an assesment.

See! Don't ask a historian!

I have credentials. Too many to even list.

I am an alien from another planet, so no one would even understand my credentials.

Nanu nanu.

/me groks Bindragon

I think this thread just died.

A place to discuss dead characters sounds interesting to me, that's something we can consider.

If you want advice on your current characters roleplay, the best thing you can do, and i mean the best, is go to someone you play with a lot that you respect (but is not too close to you to worry about harming your self esteem by giving honest criticism), and ask their opinion of you. If a DM see's you a lot, they too can offer advice, though it would probably be more general and broad in scope.

Posting even slightly self congratulatory blanket threads will encourage other people to say "Hey, i want to be recognised for my awesome, too!", and however well intentioned, probably serve no purpose.

If you want to talk more about it, ask the DM's first i guess. The dead character thread is a possible avenue to explore if you're dead set on getting things out of your system.

___________________________________________________________

(/me draws a line under the issue. A PINK line)

I have asked someone I respect, and who's roleplay I admire, to give me some general feedback on my character. He advised me to ask myself some questions on my character. Questions everyone should consider for himself.

This is sort of how the conversation went. Some things are cut out.

IRC Conversation <X> I'm curious what your goal is with your character. What does he want to accomplish, what kind of person is he? <Coldburn> He's a powerfreak, mostly. At times it may not always be clear, since he doesn't always use the direct approach. He is mostly very arrogant. <X> Well, you've got that part down pat actually and I can see it easily looking at the character. <X> Let's be a little more specific though, what does he want power for? <X> What does he fear? <X> Is there something he would sacrifice his power for? Something he cares about? <X> How does he feel when he's powerless? What is his most important fear? <X> Why can't he let himself be kind and compassionate, what's holding him back there?

I hope this is helpful.

Although both very long, I can greatly recommend these two threads. Also, there's a 100 questions thread somewhere I was unable to find. It can be quite useful for roughing out a character.

I usually use this for starting off a concept:

1. What country is your Hero from?
2. How would you describe your Hero's physical appearance?
3. Does your Hero have recurring mannerisms?
4. What is your Hero's main motivation?
5. What are your Hero's greatest strengths and greatest weaknesses?
6. What are your Hero's most and least favourite things?
7. What about your Hero's psychology?
8. What is your Hero's single greatest fear?
9. What are your Hero's highest ambitions? Greatest love?
10. What is your Hero's opinion of his country?
11. Does your Hero have any prejudices?
12. Where do your Hero's loyalties lie?
13. Is your Hero in love? Is s/he married or betrothed?
14. What about your Hero's family?
15. How would your Hero be described by his/her parents?
16. Does your Hero attempt to follow the code of chivalry?
17. How religious is your Hero? What religion does s/he follow?
18. What does your Hero think about magic?
19. If you could, what advice would you give your Hero?