Lately Iv'e noticed that people from upper sanctuary are going out of their way to go to lower and kill the people with evil subraces.

Generally I wouldn't bothered by this if it wern't for the fact that most of them were level 3 goblins that hadn't provoked anyone.

Cripes, really, if your character would really feel the need to kill goblins or drow or whatever, then have the decency to not kill them off at level 2-4. If you have to cause a confrontation, (maybe your family was killed by goblins or drow or tieflings or something..) then keep in mind that most subraces require applications, and thus a lot of thought, therefore, I beg you to refrain yourselves from killing off subraces because your level 6 and you can, instead, beat them senseless and leave them, believing they are dead. Maybe you can do what Alejandro is doing and cut off their hand... christ, don't kill them, make their character's more interesting. They'll respect you all the more for it, and will probably return the favor when you have a stroke of bad luck and are returned to level 3.

This hasn't happened to me, so I'm not taking it personally, but serioiusly, have some form.

Goblins, Kobolds, tieflings, Drow, any evil sub-race is considered free game at whatever level.

They are evil.

Kill them.

This has been gone over time and time again, and the ruling has always been that they're free game.

While it's nice tolet them level up abit and make it interesting, Some PCs litterally cannot ICly not kill them.

people who play these races know full well they will be hunted, and survival is part of the fun. Plus, the harshness of this makes it all the more amazing then PCs like Ghyrrt come along.

Love the hate.

Merely a strong felt suggestion! It's a risk people take, yes. But they at least deserve good deaths. which requires plot, not random killings.

Petey, I understand and respect your point of view, but on EfU you are absolutely, completely, totally wrong.

Application subrace PCs are in a league of their own. Managing to survive in a hostile, unfriendly environment is part of the appeal and part of the deal. If players are not interested in this, they should not these play these subraces. Other players are fully within their rights to kill these subrace PCs from the moment of creation for no other reason than them being this monster, IF it is IC for them to do so.

If it is not IC for them to do so, then they should not. I don't want characters going OOC either to kill low-level PCs. However, there is ABSOLUTELY no fair-play requirement about not FD'ing low level monster PCs.

lol. I guess I am wrong then.

No hard feelings to anybody that feels like I'm talking to them, really, I was just stating my thoughts on the subject. :P

Tieflings and duergar aren't part of the blanket monster category to be killed on sight, are they? I seem to remember them being obviously more huntable than standard PCs but not in the drow/monster category.

Duergar are actually.

I understand the frustration. i was witness, last night, to the offing of three separate subrace PC's.

While I enjoyed playing with them (and one in particulars frustration with the events and how they unfolded for that particular person), I understood the motivation of the attacking party.

They were monstrous races, they are hard to play. Even harder to get decent levels and EVEN HARDER to become epic villains on the server.

They can be hunted, killed, tortured, et al just for being monsters.

I had a kobold that lasted one day (I did manage to get to level 4) that was subdued by another kobold....only to have both of us killed by a dwarf that happened upon our little skirmish.

it happens.

This applies to all special sub races. Since this was brought up now I want to state for the record that in the past few months, we seem to have experienced a general increase in tolerance of especially monstrous sub races. This is just the kind of tendency that discourages us from approving those applications in the future.

lovethesuit I'd just like to say that I agree with the concerns of the DM team. I noticed a surprising lack of hatred towards my recent lizardfolk character. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't annoy me or bother me, but it seems a little out of place. Anyhow, thank you especially to those people who shunned, attacked, or killed me!

i was pretty surprised that a lot of people accepted my ogre, i was even more suprised that priests of oghma had no quarrel blessing me after i yelled about clubs, and after i bashed him in the face and ran away

Feel free to hunt down and destroy a tiefling for being a freakish monster. Same with duergar.

what about aasimar? Can they be hunted for the freaks they are?

Snoteye This applies to all special sub races.

Aasimar and Svirfneblin are a little different, though it would certainly depend on the character and your motivations. These races are -not- kill on sight.

That said, this is being discussed by the team at the moment.

Well, I'd have to say there's some IC reasoning for the recent lack of monster gankings. Before Ghyrrt died, killing a gobbo at least was a dicey business in case it turned out to be associated with him. Right now though, the tables have turned so far as I can see I saw two get attacked in the last couple of days. And kudos to the sneaky gobbo who pulled that ambush using Chosen yesterday. Nice evil trick.

With kobolds, though, there is IC opinion they can be useful, as with Bunge and Chudax. That had me avoiding a fight with a lone kobold yesterday, as I couldn't see Chudax selling me healing potions after I'd shot another kobold just around the bend. On that note, if you're prepared to go ganking kobold PCs, you should probably organize a raid on Chudax's camp too. Much as it would be annoying if he got killed, it would be interesting to see how many in Lower would defend him out of self-interest about potions.

As for my chars, I tend to put up with monsters in groups as they're handy cannon fodder. Heal just enough to keep them upright, and if possible, let them get killed, so it's one less loot share. In fact, it's my usual attitude to any PC on one of my char's shitlists "keep your friends close, and your enemies within looting distance" :D

Finally, for the lizardfolk guy, it was an 8 foot tall reptile with a HUGE axe The old joke about "what do you call a gorilla with a Kalashnikov" applies. THe answer of course, being "Sir". :D

All PCs are OOCly KOS if you have the IC justification. The only difference is that for monstrous races (duergar, drow, kobolds, goblins, and even tieflings and aasimar with whacky traits), IC justification can simply be that they are in fact monstrous/freakish. If your PC would kill them on sight, do so, if he wouldn't, don't. PvP rules apply in all cases. Nice and straightforward. :)

An aside, but if it is totally ic for say Dwarf PC's to kill on sight, armed grey dwarfs, all that would be needed is a DM to posses said targets correct? (assumeing you can win) Or drow, for that matter..Kuoa toa, et all..?

I guess what really bugs me the most is that no one was this agressive to goblins when Ghyyrt was around. Which is pretty danged convenient.

Because no one wanted to get their ass beat. That was all IC.

True, and that's my point. But thinking back I don't even know why I posted what I posted above, I think it was an attempt to chip in...

Just realise that if you make a monstrous subrace, they come with a free Red Star Trek Shirt, and you should expect PvP.

Actually, no, please don't go 'ganking' Chudax' camp. It's intended to be an area kobolds can rest, and generally speaking the kobolds that live there are incredibly resourceful and great at escaping attacks.

Also remember when making kobolds, that they are not, cute, adorable, yipping little lovebirds.

They are savage, bloodthirsty, hungry beasts that will probably stick a dagger in your back if they get the chance. It is fine if your monster PC is pathetic, groveling, etc, just remember that unless you apply, your monster is EVIL. Not neutral, not good, but evil.

--

Also yes, you will need a DM to supervise the PvP if you are attacking a 'Kill on Sight' race, if it is around NPC's that may react in response, efuincarnates.

I've TRIED attacking Chudax's camp..

They got away.

I wont say who the person was, but I recently witnessed an attack on a drow.

The drow was an application character, and had to have had alot of thought drawn into him, but that isnt the case here.

He had just exited a scripted quest (just got out of the transition)... and a man with a flaming axe lunged at him, and killed him in one hit.

To me, I think that is alittle pathetic. Alteast give the people a fun death.

We all like to have our characters die with a smile on our face, not die so fast, we cannot even type; "Wait!"

If you play an evil race that enslaves, slaughters and kills us surfacers, you deserve a vicious death. A flaming axe to the face is not only reserved for the NPCs that cross our path.

Though I agree subduing these PCs to allow them a few roleplayed last words before you bring the sword down on their neck is cool, it's in no way a rule.

wcsherry Also remember when making kobolds, that they are not, cute, adorable, yipping little lovebirds.

They are savage, bloodthirsty, hungry beasts that will probably stick a dagger in your back if they get the chance. It is fine if your monster PC is pathetic, groveling, etc, just remember that unless you apply, your monster is EVIL. Not neutral, not good, but evil.

Don’t judge a book by its cover comes to mind. Some may put on a cute cuddly face to others and have ulterior motives set in the back of their head. Not all kobolds and goblins are stupid, some may have intelligence scores in the teens and be smarter than one may think. If a cute cuddly facade helps them to obtain power and keeps them alive, they are still evil. An intelligent goblin or kobold can ‘use’ people just like and intelligent human or elf Spellguard can.

Keep your friends close and those that can kill you closer, (until they are no longer a threat or needed :wink: ).

RIPnogarD

wcsherry Also remember when making kobolds, that they are not, cute, adorable, yipping little lovebirds.

They are savage, bloodthirsty, hungry beasts that will probably stick a dagger in your back if they get the chance. It is fine if your monster PC is pathetic, groveling, etc, just remember that unless you apply, your monster is EVIL. Not neutral, not good, but evil.

Don’t judge a book by its cover comes to mind. Some may put on a cute cuddly face to others and have ulterior motives set in the back of their head. Not all kobolds and goblins are stupid, some may have intelligence scores in the teens and be smarter than one may think. If a cute cuddly facade helps them to obtain power and keeps them alive, they are still evil. An intelligent goblin or kobold can ‘use’ people just like and intelligent human or elf Spellguard can.

Keep your friends close and those that can kill you closer, (until they are no longer a treat or needed :wink: ).

Technically said "cute and cuddly facades" only work on people who aren't familiar with how FR works and how monsters ~should~ be treated though, as a result there comes this sect of people who start thinking kobold/goblins/orcs deserve some semblance of respect.

On a scripted quest, if possessed, any of these monsters would likely not be trusted by any PC or NPC understanding the nature of things in the FR. It would be assumed it was a trap, that the monster is being dishonest, and that the PCs lives are at risk for following what the monster may attempt to say or do. Most likely the thing would be killed if everything turned out alright, or, if there are a lot of super lawful characters, may let it go if an oath to not harm it was taken.

Monsters are monsters. You kill them on quests routinely to keep the region free of more monsters. PC monsters are only different in that there is someone actually beind the screen able to interact.

Unless I was playing a monster character, or was attempting to "use" the monster to do my bidding, it would be dead.

When I created Ghyrrt and Goozag, I expected to be killed at any opportunity. It was -why- I created them, so that I could have the thrill of a constant cat and mouse chase game, where it was me against the entire server. That did not happen so much with Ghyrrt, because a PC, through IC actions, chose to punish Ghyrrt by enslaving him instead of killing him. When the DMs say that 'if it's not IC for you to kill them', it isn't a suppository that they cannot think of examples of. Many characters may seek to take on a monster slave for a variety of reasons, with the constant threat of death or mutilations over their head for punishment. DangerousDan had a goblin butler, who I imagine wasn't entirely trusted, but was still along for the wacky ride.

To echo everyone else, treat PC monsters as if they were NPCs. Many players of monsters expect to be hunted, and it is the thrill of playing a non-normal subrace.

Really, I think the main reason for leaving PC monsters alone more is that attacking them is PVP, with all the additional DM req, challenge and risk of permaing that entails. This leads to the situation where players are fully willing to bum-rush an Umberhulk, but steer clear of beating up a cowering kobold in case he's tougher than he looks, has mates around or posts a bounty.

I'm with you on the "getting used to the idea that ganking monster races isn't griefing" thing. It's been tough for me. I've avoided it by never playing crusading type chars that wouldn't turn down the chance to kill one, but more survivor types.

Similarly I've see a new player pull an eyeball familiar out in a QA with no warning, get surprised when I call to kill the thing, and another starts petting it! In that case I held off stabbing it or further threats because I knew that the other two players would actually turn on me for it due to not thinking "this is an evil mind dominating beast and if I've ever encountered one I should suspect IT is controlling HER".

But no, they'd seen it once before, and were treating probably the most blatantly evil and dangerous familiar in the game like it was a puppy. Wary acceptance I'd buy, if it was a condition of having the mage along, but I'd still expect a "you chose to have it serve you, you face the consequences" rather than "DON'T KILL THE PET!"

That said though, the threat of calling in bounty hunters/Big Evil is IMO one of the best IC defenses for monster races.

On a related note: The Onion: "Mob Not Angry with Monster, Just Disappointed".

If you have an abberant Familiar out, I'll kill it after warning you. if I have a DM

I still am not convinced that PCs should just -kill- a monster race.

Yes, they're evil. And yes, they're manipulative and destructive, but there are players behind them. Go ahead and kill them, but atleast make it fun for the player. Camping outside a scripted quest, in my opinion, is the lowest form of a gank squad. It gives the character's no chance to even know whats happening. In my opinion, it isnt even an ambush. If the gank squad cannot justify knowing who the monstrous PCs are, and where they are, then by all means I would think they metagamed the scripted quest information.

Also. If my monstrous PC is to kill a human, or elf, or other common race, I'd definately try to make it fun for the opposing player.

So in short, I think everybody would just appreciate having a fun death to their characters. Not because they put alot of work into their character's, but just so they can atleast have fun rping them to their deaths.

SlarrikVilbiss Camping outside a scripted quest, in my opinion, is the lowest form of a gank squad.

I've seen it happen, twice already in the week that I've been playing my character, Snoteye.

It's an entirely different issue nonetheless.

I have a question that is related to the topic…but yet is different.

Let’s say I am playing a Goblin, now in playing such, I know that I can be killed at any time by anyone. And I must accept this as part of the “fun”.

Now, as a goblin, can I in turn do the same? Do I have the right to kill any PC of any race that I find “monstrous”? Let’s say my Goblin HATES humans, can he / she then go on a killing rampage of any Human he/ she finds?

Basically what I want to know is; is it all right for a monstrous race to kill “Normal” races? Just for the sake of ridding the underdark of X race?

Nope.

Double standard, but yea, you can't do that.

To clarify Snoteye's statement --

It is not against the rules to await someone outside of a QA, if you know ICly they are within. However, you must wait until they have loaded (i.e. spoken, moved, done something to indicate they have fully loaded) before attacking them.

He stated that "camping" is against the rules, which it is. However, camping is literally waiting on the transition (the blue part) and attacking people as they come through.

Awaiting someone, a bit aways, is not.

Snoteye Whichever it is, please try and formulate questions, especially those pertaining to server rules, as unambiguously as possible. It makes Santa's life much easier.

Inaccuracies and overdramatizations yield further inaccuracies and grumpiness. Apologies for any inconviences this misunderstanding may have caused.

I've also wondered this, by the way.

Why is it that application characters are required to give a non-application character a good, rped death?

But in turn, non-application characters dont need to give application characters a good death?

It seems extremely backwards.

petey512 I guess what really bugs me the most is that no one was this agressive to goblins when Ghyyrt was around. Which is pretty danged convenient.

Requiem Because no one wanted to get their ass beat. That was all IC.

If a monster is attacked, and repels his attacker, he can do whatever is in character. It's not always in character to kill when the monster is successful, sometimes it is. Either is fine.

And we understand many are not comfortable with the way monster PC's are handled. No one is saying you shouldn't roleplay or be creative with how you handle them though, SlarrikVibiss. Feel free to handle it as you see fit, however, those that sign up to play monsters are generally aware of these consequences and are cool with it. You may find it backwards, though some find it rewarding. It's all up to personal preference, I guess.

If someone jumps you with the intent to kill you, ...well the answer seems obvious, but is up to the player behind the Monsterous race. Do you want to let them live, to hunt you another day, because it furthers conflict and storytelling? Or do you prefer to do as any Monsterous or not, character would do, and kill off its attackers to end a threat to it's existance. I would think the answer would differ, and should differ for every player out there. Also, the PVP faq makes it clear that if you are attacked, you have every right to defend yourself, regardless of race. It is always up to the attacking party to have a DM if needed. And you always need one if an NPC could even hear the combat!!: ..this debate flairs up every few months. If you play a Monsterous Race, you will die. It may be quick, almost directly after creation, or it may take awhile, but unless you are incredibley lucky, it wont be more then a few weeks. Except that, it is part of the character. If you do not wish a sudden and perhaps less then satisfying death, do not play a monsterous race.

I definately agree with what efuincarnate is saying. If you play an monstrous race, be willing to die. I've been around about a week, and almost died three times. What reasons I've lived, escapes me.

I personally, understand and am content with how monsters are treated, but I think that they could be better, definately. That doesnt mean I am against them, or disatisfied.

Just lock this. The DMs have clearly stated that the status quo is fine, if not it could be a bit harsher with people treating monsters all cuddly and whatnot.

Lock plz.

Yeah I can comfortably say this forum has fulfilled it's purpose. Locking would A-OK with me.

Aasimars are people with divine blood. They are liked and usually accepted in upper I would think. Some might not like them or call them weird if people did not know about him. Aasimars are a good version of thieflings. Thieflings are evil aasimar that btrayed their celestial heritage.

Thieflings are evil aasimar that btrayed their celestial heritage.

Tieflings are beings with demonic blood, very very different from celestials, imo.

Also. Lock.

Lock.

Lock.

Lock.

Lock.

Lock.

lock..

Lock this thread.

You are both technically incorrect. Tieflings and aasimar have a predominantly human heritage and LA+1 in common, that's about it. Being an aasimar also does not mean you're going to be liked more by people, just that you're likely to get out of tight spots in ways that will generally improve the average citizen's opinion of you. You'll still stand out in a crowd and you'll still be on the receiving end of racial prejudice.

Also, lawk.