(Note in advance: While spurned by recent events, this is in -no- way meant as criticism of the people involved in previous events. You acted in an utterly, and completely IC way. It is instead meant as an honest discussion. I want to see what EfU's general consensus is. )

Well, As some of you may know, I usually avoid FD. I find it sloppy, ugly, and generally leaves bad feeling on both sides. It ends plots, ends conflict, ends a character, and will even sometimes chase someone away from EfU. But: at the same time, I see that it is Vital. Evil people kill other people, Good people actually seem to FD more then evil.

But my question is, what is your personal "Check-list" for FD?

Mine:

[] Has known for atleast a week [] Has Subdued once [] Has warned IC 3 times, or more [] None of these will work (thx to everyone who helped make that list. I still use it)

Now, Admittedly, Mine is a little, perhaps, overly strict. And I want to correct that. So what is a "fair" check list in your opinion?

I have only in the history of my time here FD'd a total of 3 characters. All three have either had a long history with my characters, or I've had quite large IC reasons to kill them.

For instance; we are mortal enemies. I FD.

He is a kobold in lower, where Ghyrrt's law states no kobolds may roam. I FD, but subdue before the FD to give him room to RP his death.

I am EB0L and my character hates that character. I FD.

There really is no way to make a checklist, rather one should decide on a case-by-case basis.

To quote the great sage Crosswind,

When you are killing someone, especially if hired to do so, then you do not have to subdue then RP then kill them, or RP with them 50 times before you kill them. Yes, in a perfect world it would be nice, but keep in mind that not all villains monologue.

The RP comes in, in the events leading up to the FD. Someone is mad at you, you're a rival of a god and they're a zealot, etc.

Some people hire assassins to do "Practice" missions on annoying people, others it is through grudges.

If it warrants IC death, then it is followed through. Having a checklist really doesn't seem like that much of an IC thing, unless your character does it.

Also, telling people you're about to kill them, Never fun. It takes all the surprise out of it, and even the best of people will alter their character behavior when they know someone OOC is gonna kill them. Alot of folks still follow through, but I feel there is some subtle, unconsious preperation that they as victims go through.

Listen in Silence He is a kobold in lower, where Ghyrrt's law states no kobolds may roam. I FD, but subdue before the FD to give him room to RP his death.

Actually, you killed me before I could finish typing.

I've always had a bad experience with PvP deaths, since they always seem to happen about an hour after I make a new character, and regardless I find it pretty distasteful. It just seems like a power trip to me.

It makes sense for well-established characters who have already had at least a decent run to die this way, but it seems to me like a lot of this is directed at characters who've barely finished doing all the fed-ex quests for the first time.

Don't play a Kobold, then, or hide better. Just because Montezzi let them live happily doesn't mean that's always the case! They're monsters, and will be hunted and despised forever, by everything that doesn't see a practical use for them!

If it's gotten to the point where kobold PC's need to be stealthed 24/7, then I don't see why we still have kobold as an available race.

EDIT: And you know I wasn't even referring to kobolds, I was talking about new PC's.

I have only one rule.

Make sure there's no other way. Make sure that only through their death can your character advance his goals. Make sure that even though you've considered a million other alternatives, their death still seems like the most viable IC course of action.

IE, do it when it makes IC sense, as a last resort.

I don't have a hard and fast rule. I do what makes the most IC sense based on the situation and the other person. I can begin an encounter with no intention of FDing someone, and then RP with that person, only to turn around and FD them.

Dying sucks. Most of my PC's weren't retired, but were killed in one fashion or another. It happens and it happens often.

However, I don't FD without reason. If I'm a bad guy, I might give you a chance to serve me in exchange for living. You can refuse - and then I'll kill you - but if you accept, then hey - welcome aboard. If you have something I want / need, and won't hand it over, I might kill you.

Generally speaking, if I go out of my way to PvP you, and you refuse to give into whatever demands my PC has for you, or if you act in a way that is obviously putting you in further danger then I'll probably kill you. For example, if I subdue you and demand that you give me information, and your PC is refusing to give into my demand, I may decide to torture your character. If your character, throughout the torture, still refuses to yield - even an inch - to give me what my PC desires, I am very likely to kill you.

The best way to survive MOST PvP encounters with me, is just to cooperate.

There are exceptions where no matter what happens you'll likely die. For example, you've been captured to be sacrificed to some dark deity. My PC has been hired or asked to kill your PC by another PC or (especially) an NPC.

I feel that, over all, my method is the best fit for EfU. We are playing in the Underdark, and while it may suck to die, death is inevitable. When I create a PC I often try to imagine what type of death they'll have - because I know it will come, eventually.

[tangent]

Kobold, goblin, and other monster PCs are an exception to any rule about PvP courtesy. Since half the fun in playing them is struggling to survive, it is fully acceptable to FD them just for being what they are regardless of what level they are you. This is a key point to playing these subrace PCs, and if you do not enjoy this, you should not play them.

Other rules (such as having a DM to witness if the PvP occurs around NPCs), still apply.

FD'ing new characters of standard races is not acceptable without extremely just cause, and should be brought to the attention of the DMs.

[/tangent]

Howland [tangent]

Kobold, goblin, and other monster PCs are an exception to any rule about PvP courtesy. Since half the fun in playing them is struggling to survive, it is fully acceptable to FD them just for being what they are regardless of what level they are you. This is a key point to playing these subrace PCs, and if you do not enjoy this, you should not play them.

Other rules (such as having a DM to witness if the PvP occurs around NPCs), still apply.

FD'ing new characters of standard races is not acceptable without extremely just cause, and should be brought to the attention of the DMs.

[/tangent]

That was no Tangent. That was barely a lecture. Work harder on your Rants, my good sir.

But, seriously, Even with monstrous races, I try to have an IC reason other then "he is a monster". For example: Kirix is walking down the street, emoting, RPing, and continuing to rock out. Then min-max barbarian #126 walks along, grabs DM, kills Kirix, takes his stuff. It would be lame beyond any mortal bounds, despite the fact it is utterly IC.

Ive mugged upwards of 9 kobolds and goblins in my time, and never FD'ed a single one. Nwn is not Ut3000. It isn't a "Kill to win" server. EfU is all about one thing, at least for me, conflict. And while it generates OOC conflict, FD kills IC conflict, even more so since the majority of it is unwitnessed.

Tbh, I subdue whenever possible, first. If I intend to kill them, the person may offer me something More beneficial than their death, be it their begging, or something Actually usable. Generally speaking I avoid FDing whenever possible, but at times it is not always the case that you can just ICly let someone go anymore.

Generally speaking, I attempt to make sure the death is as fun as possible for the other person. After FDing and after being FDed, I always take the time as soon as I can to express the fun I had interacting with the PC, give them kudos, etc. To me, If you can't end a PC after PVP with a friendly tell saying "That was awesome" Then somebody did something wrong. It does suck to lose a PC, especially when they got a lot going on. But really, as long as you and others had a chance to have fun, PVP can be rewarding too. Your friends tryign to figure out how you died/get revenge, etc. Playing a new PC and seeing how your friends were affected by your PC and his/her death, etc.

It all comes down to how much fun you have playing the PC, to me. If you make enemies, and they kill you - Great. If you make friends, they defend you - Also great. If your PC provokes a reaction either way from any PC, You've already won, at least in my eyes. Knowing that even if I'm not a part of it, if I start or influence something that leads to others having fun, I consider it a success, and have no regrets about it.

Done well, FD can be fun, or it can not. On EFU, I have never seen the latter.

I rarely let 'OOC courtesy' cloud what I would do IC. There is no 'formula for FD' for me.

The more often you die, the more often you get a chance to make a better character.

Hammerfist0 But, seriously, Even with monstrous races, I try to have an IC reason other then "he is a monster". For example: Kirix is walking down the street, emoting, RPing, and continuing to rock out. Then min-max barbarian #126 walks along, grabs DM, kills Kirix, takes his stuff. It would be lame beyond any mortal bounds, despite the fact it is utterly IC.

This bothers me a little. While if this is the attitude you want to have about it, that's fine, but I would not recommend it for the rest of the server. Of course, you're extremely right about one thing, and I wish people would be more critical of min-maxing-- it's a very poor way to play EfU and is generally (not always) in very poor taste.

That aside, it's grossly inappropriate for the server to be widely tolerant of monster races. Most of the server should have the attitude that "he is a monster" and then go to FD PvP (although I can certainly understand Subdual first, then monologuing or emoting the brutal/swift/agonizing death that he's receiving for fun!).

The DMs will probably never say anything like this. I wish they would. So I'm going to make a brief list of people who SHOULD NEVER tolerate monsters, quickly going into "Kill on Sight" mode:

- Good and Neutral Dwarves (particularly goblinoids)

- Good and Neutral Elves (particularly goblinoids)

- Good and Neutral Gnomes (particularly kobolds)

- Pretty much ALL Good PCs who have not met the creature through a strange event (Kirix wiping tables). Still, it makes little sense for ANYONE to ever trust one.

- Most Neutral and Evil humans without a very specific reason for not doing so (like wanting to turn them into shock troops against a team of umberhulks and killing them afterwards). Still shouldn't trust them.

Someone's silly thought... Why are you so strong for mistreating monsters? People just want to have fun as evil little monsters, and don't want to get all involved in PvP!

Monsters are fun BECAUSE they are hunted, BECAUSE they are challenging, BECAUSE nobody trusts you, BECAUSE you are an evil, conniving little twerp and BECAUSE everyone can assume all of these things without even knowing you diabolical plans. Treat them otherwise, and you're STEALING the pleasure of playing these races from those that choose to do so for the right reasons.

If you want to play a monster but have no interest in the thought of getting into PvP without warning, you're playing monsters for the WRONG reason and you should reconsider the purpose for playing a monster.

Ending thoughts:

Monsters are evil. They don't mind eating humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, or hell, sometimes even each other. They are NATURALLY this way, they are not just products of their environment (although it certainly plays a significant role). Kobolds, specifically, do NOT KNOW the emotion of love, at least towards other beings. They do not marry, have families (aside from tribal loyalty, which is unique considering the lack of being able to love!) As far as I am aware, kobolds also cannot be taught to love- meaning that it is a pyschological barrier, making them more like animals than humans in this regard. Goblins, even those that have been members of their native tribe for over a decade, are ALWAYS distrustful towards each other, and live very public lives (even the leaders!) because they know if they don't keep an eye on their conniving "friends", then they'll be backstabbed (and likely will!) in a moment of weakness. As I just showed, the thought of "friends" is very, very shallow in goblin culture. Trust is virtually non-existant.

Please, play goblins and kobolds to reflect this.

*None of this is directed at anyone in particular, which is obvious since the only monster I interact with regularly is doing awesome. It's merely focused towards a trend that I have seen since my days of monstering (just prior to the free-allowance of monster PCs) to now.*

Garem Kobolds, specifically, do NOT KNOW the emotion of love, at least towards other beings. They do not marry, have families...

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/39/39945/grimhamster-gets-hitched/index.html

You don't understand us at all... :wink:

But yes, I totally agree with Garem.

Each potential FD should be considered on a case-by-case, IC basis. I find arguments otherwise (such as subduing someone beforehand, warning them before the PvP, knowing them a week, etc.) to be nearly as damaging as people who resort to FD all the time for weak, opportunistic reasons.

Okay, so we now know Garem was the real-life inspiration for Mischa. Nowhere in the Monster Manuel does it say "Kobolds do not love." What is this claptrap about marriage? There's been a kobold marriage ceremony on this server!

Goblins and kobolds are not, by cultural inclination, nice people, but they are not animals. They can think, reason, speak, and create and utilize advanced tools. Do you remember Deekin? He develops a strong attachment to the player character, something a species that is biologically unable to love couldn't do.

This is the kind of thinking your average PC should have in-character, but for an actual player to subscribe to this disgusts me.

On a non-subjective note, there's a fine line between making it difficult for monster PCs, which they should expect, and punishing them for playing that race. There are real people behind those monsters who are trying to play a fun and interesting character, and killing them without any real role-playing other than "Arrg, monster!" is unfair.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too emotionally attached to kobolds in general, but when Elves and Goblins are listed as having the exact same battle strategy with elves being called 'cunning' and goblins 'cowardly' there's something wrong.

I KILL EVERYONE!!!!!!!!

Viashino_wizard Nowhere in the Monster Manuel does it say "Kobolds do not love."

It's not in the Monster Manual, it's in Races of the Dragon. It's true: kobolds can't feel love, according to canon.

I'm not really one to talk, though, as I played a kobold whose primary goal was to learn how to feel love and compassion the way a human might.

Back to the main topic ... I've never actually FD'ed somebody (one time I really should have but got mowed down by the character's friends because I was trying to subdue first - mistake). I always feel bad when I lose a character I really liked, but it's also part of the reason I play here, and not somewhere where all characters live forever. Here, PvP matters. People can become real villains or real heroes; you get a chance to become emotionally connected with your fictional characters the way you really can't in a game like WoW. With the high stakes comes higher degrees of fear, sympathy, joy, the sense of triumph in victory, grief over loss and all the rest. The possibility of permanent death makes it that much sweeter when you do succeed.

That said, there is nothing wrong with avoiding death. After all, avoiding death, for most creatures, would be a very in-character thing to do.

EFU is not canon.

Kobolds and goblins are generally murderous, vicious beasts who are massively reviled by all other races, and this should be reflected in any related RP on EFU.

I've always viewed FD as a case by case basis...100%. For example:

You are a chaotic evil zealot and a party of 10 PC's attacks you and your best friend, killing him. You make it your goal to avenge his death, wanting to murder everyone that took part in the assassination, blah blah blah. You post notices telling them they are all going to die, etc, etc.

I feel that this is completely IC and acceptable in this scenario. You've even warned them that they are going to die (or at least, that you are going to TRY to kill them). I think the fun part is instilling that fear in those particular PCs, having them watch their backs, all the hoopla that ensues, etc...especially if you have followed through on a few of your "hits" already.

That's how it would really happen IC. You killed his friend, he wants to kill you, you watch your back, or aren't scared, etc.

On the other hand...FDing someone because you are a level 8 fighter and he is a level 4 rogue who's been doing deliveries all day and has accumulated a fair amount of gp. That sort of unprovoked FD is pretty lame, in my opinion...but I've seen it happen.

I think IC FD is what helps to make this server more dangerous and fun. You can't go around mouthing off to villains or starting trouble with everyone, for example, you just might get burned.

Anyways...just thought I'd submit my take on this whole FD discussion.

FD is a case by case basis for me, and varies by the character and situation.

Alyssara never killed anyone outright. Ever. She subdued plenty of people for the Watch, but never even took part in an execution.

Shayleigh also preferred never to Full Death anyone. The several situations she was in where PvP was involved, she always subdued, and wanted to go with a roleplay end to the characters, however, someone that was with her decided to go for a full death to said characters.

Isania, I'd rather not say until she retires, but I still always prefer to give a character a roleplay death unless its a situation where it is absolutely required.

Hmm... I've only been on here 2 months, and I've seen 2 FDs, and been subdued twice on one char. Never FDed a char, but a few subduals. Winnie beat Egon down mid-quest once, and I'm considering that fair warning the little psycho's likely to kill me if I badmouth her like that again, and am RPing that level of fear masquerading as respect. Subduals like that develop a character as opposed to ending them.

Both the FDs I saw were on chars who could reasonably expect it. One loud do-gooder looking to kill a particular evil guy, and one goblin I was questing with. For the first, I was surprised it took that long, the amount of evil chars I'd seen him wind up.

I'd be pissed if someone randomly FDs PCs, but not if the'd got a chance to back down or I was in a contentious plot where I was aiming to annoy a char or faction. On the other hand, a good end to a char's worth it.

As for myself, I'd FD someone if I knew they or their faction were likely to FD me for delivering a beating if I got identified, or if it'd have a big impact. If I ever get a shot at a faction leader, that's an FD situation for the amount it'd change the politics of the server. I would reckon that an easy FD on a known lower level is lame though. If you're going for wiping out a char, you should be willing to risk your own.

I have to disagree with something here. The kobold and goblin killing for no reason other than that of their race, is wrong. Either we kill all of them, including NPC’s! Or we give them the benefit of the doubt like we do with the NPC’s that are everywhere! Don’t walk past the kobolds in Chudax’s camp, climb back up to Lower and kill the first PC kobold you see yelling “It’s an evil kobold! Kill it!” This is called player killing. Either you hate all kobolds and want them dead or you don’t. If you walk past the NPC’s kobolds and goblins without confrontation and then attack the PC’s you’re taking advantage of the system to kill a PC simply because you can tell it’s a player.

After all, isn’t there a shaky alliance with the Shadow tribe? Wouldn’t accidentally killing one of them cause a political incident? Who here can tell the difference between a shadow tribe kobold and a PC kobold without using the game mechanics of PC name and description?

I do have a solution to this dilemma. Let the players name their kobolds and goblins things like “Kobold” and “Goblin”. By doing this they could park near an NPC kobold or goblin camp and not be recognized without extra effort. They could blend in better. You would have to role-play things like is that Kirix or Prince Ghyrrt or some other kobold or goblin? The players could RP with others of their race to give names and whatnots, and a simple [tell] to let them be able to recognize each other without mishap would be easy enough. And those that get involved with other PC races would force the PC’s to role-play things like, “Is that you Kirix? All you kobolds look the same to me.” You would also have to be more careful when adventuring with them so you don’t accidentally attack the wrong one on a kobold or goblin quest.

But then again, what do I know... :?

Yeah, that's a good point. I remember I was in a group that ICly suspected the kobold merchants in the tunnels of robbing someone until we counted them and realised they were too few.

That said, I do wonder why the Chudax's camp hasn't been wiped out by Ghyrrt or gnomes as they never mention any affilation with the Shadow Tribe.

Also, since even though you can attack goblin/kobold chars for no reason, you still need a DM I thought, and if you started on a goblin in Goblintown, you'd be in a bit of trouble...

Along on those lines, it'd be nice if the DMs put a load of armed kobold guards around the Canal Ward if the Shadow Tribe's claiming it.

Only reason bunge exists is that he doesn't read up as evil on the paladin horoscope- and loads of folks would defend him for his potions.

Chudax- well, I actually have tried killing him before, he's a sneaky little bugger.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Only reason bunge exists is that he doesn't read up as evil on the paladin horoscope- and loads of folks would defend him for his potions.

Good point Thomas, I can go for saying that at least one of the many guards at the Upper gate and in Middle is a paladin and can detect evil. But then how do you explain all the other evil PC’s running around Upper? Or are these guards racist and only detect evil on goblins and kobolds and not on any other race? Hell I think the spellguard and associates would all be exiled from Upper if NPC paladin guards started detecting evil on them.

Well, sure they'd be able to say "this person has evil intentions" but that's not a crime in itself and evil characters like Morva operate and preach the dogma of evil deities openly. The Watch can't just arrest you for being evil if they can't actually pin a crime on you.

One: Paladins know that evil is an undeniable fact of life, paladins don't run around FDing evil folks, they give them what is called, 'A second chance of redemption.' If I saw a Paladin smiting every evil player, I would smack them a Spell failure. Paladins uphold -law- and -order- as well as the concept of -good.- They cannot touch these -evil- people because they did nothing -wrong- yet.

Just because they are -evil- doesn't mean they are to be -punished- on crimes you cannot -prove-

I rest my case.

Paladins smite evil that requires smiting. All evil isn't smite worthy. You can't smite somebody just because they have an overwhelming evil aura. You can however smite them if you know they are evil and have heard many accounts of their evil deeds.

Okay, I’m not really debating to get kobolds or goblins into Upper. I agree if you want your kobold or goblin in Upper, work for it IG.

Back on topic... I’m debating PvP (FD or subdual) against kobolds and goblins simply due to their race.

If you feel this way;

derflaro I KILL EVERYONE!!!!!!!!

RIPnogarD you forget the very BASIC description on both goblin AND kobolds, which reads;

Dangerous in LARGE NUMBERS. One kobold on his own or one goblin on his own is not much and I can see many opportunist characters willing to cash in on a lone goblin, especially in the wilds. Tell me you've never killed a Starving Kobold Bandit?

I didn’t miss anything. I can read just fine. As a matter of fact I also read the Sancturay law that states endangering Sanctuary is a crime. If anybody inadvertently kills a messenger kobold of the Shadow tribe I hope you’re prepared to face the consequences of being eaten by a dragon for your effort.

And oh yeah! Isn’t Ghyrrt a lone goblin walking around Lower? Yes… Well go get em tough guys! :roll: