I've seen quite a few people shrug off the fact that they had just had the hell beaten out of them. I've always thought subdual was to be considered a near death experience, as opposed to sparring. Perhaps i'm wrong though.

But if i'm not, maybe the equivalent of a death in terms of xp loss might discourage the usual "i just got beaten up but i'm still haughty, try it again anytime" attitude. A lvl loss would also make the victim technically weaker, and thus discourage immediate retaliation. Make this on concussion, so that it's not immediate when the loser hits the ground, and allows rp to eventually wiggle a cool way through.

That's just an idea, pretty harsh maybe, but what's the feedback on this?

If you make Subdual knock a third off your XP, you're going to blur the boundaries, since you'd then need ways of recovering from subdual with a lower penalty, just like for a raise.

Subdual means subduing someone, getting them down and keeping them there. Beat them hard enough they stay down, rather than attempting to cripple them permanently. EfU is already harsh, and subdual's the option to get someone out of your way for a while without doing lasting damage.

However, as opposed to a level LOSS, a level DRAIN could be appropriate for concussion. That would apply an irritating but temporary penalty, since the victim would need to rest and recover before they'd be effective again. It'd stop players intending to get quickly even as they'd be in no shape to fight.

I’ve actually knocked people out before and think you have it backwards. First off when knocked unconscious most people don’t do anything, they don’t moan, spit blood or cough. Mostly they just lay there dead still to the point you think you may have killed them. Then after a few seconds that seem likes many minutes, just about when you think you should check for a pulse, they jump back to their feet fighting and screaming just as loud as they were before they were knocked out. But of course that is in RL, not role-playing.

Of course if you’re talking about beating somebody to within an inch of his or her life that would probably be different, (I’ve never done that before). But I think perhaps your idea would be close to the money on this with one exception. The player being beaten should be able to take your PC off of subdual and let his character get killed. This would turn the so called “beat-down” into murder and make players think twice about this very popular PvP event that some players take advantage of. You want to chance beating somebody down you should be prepared to face the charges when you screw-up and kill somebody.

Just like some players don’t RP the taking of a beat-down by the so-called book. Beating somebody down could very easily result in death and murder charges. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.

Well if you're going to get specific, how precisely do you subdue someone with a fireball, crossbow, battleaxe or acid bomb? :P

And since it's "subdual", I'd assume the character's making an effort to subdue and restrain the the victim once they're knocked out/winded, or that a KO represents them being too effectively pinned down/stuck with a blade at their neck to try anything.

Not a bad idea to let the victim toggle full death on if they keep going beyond that though.

Isn't subdual more or less an OOC courtesy thing to avoid permakilling a pc?

A /c die or something which only functions in subdual, would be nifty. Because sometimes sitting there watching people smash your body over and over, it's just not fun.

I agree with the suggestion that level drain should be applied on subdual, one level when subdued, two levels when blacked out, and at least four under a concussion.

Subdual is here so we can beat someone down without killing someone. The fact we are subdueing them means we beat the living shit out of them. That means they are injured. Now, we are in NWN with magical healing potions and such so this doesn't hold much weight- But injured people can't fight well. Someone who just got their ass handed to them should not be able to fight at their prime, until they have had time to recover.

Ability/level drain which needs restoration (not lesser) is needed imo.

I approach it like this:

If my PC has become so angry to subdue your PC and not out right perma kill them, and you want to act like Master of the Universe and nothing can hurt you, that just increased your chance of death by about twenty percent.

When you're laying face down in a pool of your own blood, it's not the wisest of moves to begin insulting my PC's mother. If they've been willing to take the conflict that far, it's more than likely they're willing to carry it all the way.

After all, let's not forget, almost every PC is an adventurer. They slaughter orcs, duegar, and other sentient beings just about every day of their lives. What difference should it make that this one just happens to have a human face?

My suggestion: If you run into a PC who is unwilling to submit to your will after being subdued is simply to go all the way. But always stay IC no matter what happens.

If your PC for some reason, could never kill another sentient living being (and actually RPed it out on quests and what not) then they probably should not take the life of that PC. Likewise, if you play a badass with no fear of death, who would call my PC's mother a whore while picking up their teeth that my PC just knocked out with their boot, then do that. Just be prepared for the logical conclusion.

However, in the end, no matter what, stay IC. Nobody likes to die, but it makes the whole thing sour for everyone when OOC hate / anger / frustration enters the picture - from the DM's who oversee the PvP on down to the players involved.

Just accept the fact that, playing on EfU, every PC you create, no matter how powerful or how long lived has an ending. Some endings are epic and some endings are not-so-epic. Your PC simply will not live forever, even if they are so sweet to the point of being sick and make no enemies. Someone will eventually try and kill your PC and be successful. Or you will find yourself in a situation with NPCs or the Gameworld that will result in your death.

Letsplayforfun Isn't subdual more or less an OOC courtesy thing to avoid permakilling a pc?

Nope not really. Sometimes folk don't necessarily want a person to die.

I mean let's say for example: I subdue a member of FactionX I take ArtifactY from them as well as potions to compensate me for the trouble. I then send them on their way back to tell their friends of their screw up and depending on the faction it could lead to fates much worse than simply dying. Like living in shame of failure!

Many [villains]/[heroes] are [pompous]/[virtuous] in that they believe a [hero]/[villain] can [do nothing to stop them]/[change their ways]".

So you see subdual is not just for ooc courtesy!

Also, I should point out that just because you've been subdued does not mean that someone intends to kill your PC. Although, it could certainly lead to that depending on the RP.

If I subdue you and demand that you give me some type of information that only you have, and you refuse, that might lead to death. If you cooperate, you might live (depending on the PC).

Likewise, peer pressure can be fun. Subduing an entire group of people, even when you only want one, is very effective when fighting against certain PC's - such as Paladins. "Tell me where I can find the <insert artifact> or your friends die." Paladin refuses. Your PC kills one of the group. Make the demand again. Paladin refuses. Kill another of the group. Peer pressure is fun, and even outright betrayals as you watch the Paladin's group members work to save their own hides at the Paladin's expense.

In the end if my PC has subdued you and made a demand of your PC, and your PC acquiesces to that demand, the chances of your PC dying decrease dramatically. I also think this is the case in the vast majority of subduel cases. So, when subdued, provided it is IC for your PC, it is best to give into the demands of the one who has you face down in the dirt if you want your PC to live. If you don't, I take it as a signal that your willing to have your PC take it all the way to the end - to perma death.

It should be noted that messages like "blacked out" and "concussion" are legacies of the original subdual system which we seem to have adapted from the NWVault. It appears that there used to be a myriad of effects applied at various stages of subdual that we have since removed.

None of them, however, were level drain. I. Love. Level drain. A temporary 1/3rd or half level drain effect could be just the thing we need to make people take subdual (more) seriously. Nothing drives home how thoroughly beat you are like losing a bunch of hit dice, among other things. It also reduces the effectiveness of heal/re-buff.

I'd like to see some more discussion of this, though, since I may be biased when it comes to temporary level drain effects within systems. (I actually hate spells/monster abilities that cause level drain.)

Since folks can be level drained to death you know.

Yeah, that's why i suggested just one level for it. that way, it could only kill you if you were aleady drained a load, or lvl 1. Of course a % of total is even better as long as it would get rounded down so that if you're at lvl1 it has no effect.

The beater, not just the beaten need to RP these things properly. If you have beaten somebody half to death to the point that they are “spitting out their teeth” and that now toothless person RP’s his beating and all that good stuff, when he finally gets up and you start hitting him again that person should have the option to just die. This would put a curb on ridiculous beat-downs that get old after the third or fourth time in a row. It would take a surgeon to be able to beat a person to a point that they knew that person wouldn’t die, certainly not a barbarian. I’ve seen people RP just beating somebody over and over again. When they stand up, they get beat again. I agree it gets to a point where it’s just stupid. Being able to die would first get it over with and second it quite possibly could and should have reproductions on the ‘beater’ due to the fact that they just killed somebody.

I really do like the idea of a (/c die) command. This would not just be good for role-playing a beating death but also suicides and accidental deaths. How fun would it be to be in a boxing match and after you hit somebody they /c died? Or maybe even a ritual seppuku or something?

I'm not sure if I am in favor of level drain. Not due to any penalties linked to it, but rather how it'd effect spell casting classes. When it comes to level drain they get shafted way worse.

My suggestion is: attack bonus, armor class, and spell failure. All of that should be based on percentage based on XP. This would represent all the needed things: difficulty fighting (lowered AB) due to broken bones, difficulty avoiding attacks due to head injuries and seeing double (lowered AC), and a percentage of spell failure (though not complete) due to head injuries and broken arms, hands or fingers.

You already receive penalties for being beat down - you move slower and have a lowered AC. Extend those penalties and add more. Increase their duration.

----

...when he finally gets up and you start hitting him again...

If I do this it is normally to keep the person laying on the ground, or to keep them from OOCly trying to escape / heal / whatever. (Once you are subdued you should always stay down.) Getting up is involuntary for your PC, unless you actually emote that you're trying to do it. However, sometimes, when people get up they OOCly heal and try and escape, or get up and try and cast spells, etc. That's normally why when someone gets up they get beat down again.

This would put a curb on ridiculous beat-downs that get old after the third or fourth time in a row. It would take a surgeon to be able to beat a person to a point that they knew that person wouldn’t die, certainly not a barbarian.

Since in almost every case a DM should be overseeing the PvP, just express this wish to them. Get the DM to let you roll a fortitude save, and if you fail your fort save (DC 15 or something), you die. You would be surprised what you can live through.

Meldread You would be surprised what you can live through.

I don’t recall ever being on the receiving end of a beat-down but I have witnessed enough of them. I also had a 190 something year old dwarf that was downed in a PvP battle. I had to emote his never coming to and walk behind and then emote being dropped on the ground again and whatnot. I never intended for this frail old dwarf to live through this battle even had they won, he was too old to go to war. A /c die command would have made it much easier on all involved. They could have actually carried his body and dropped it and all that good role-playing stuff. Or maybe they might have even left his body where he was killed on the battlefield. Perhaps some witness or passer-by might have even taken the body to be resurrected or something. Numerous options could have happened but alas I had no choice but to tag along emoting *Never comes to* and *Is barley breathing* when I just wanted him to be dead.

I have always supported a special subduel option that allows you to knock people unconscious so you can carry their bodies around, instead of having to rely on them to OOCly cooperate. That makes it so frustrating, especially if you are trying to take them to a hidden and secure area for "questioning".

All that being said...

I am not sure if I am really in favor of that. It allows some PC's an easy out when they don't want to deal with being interrogated. Or sacrificed to some dark deity.

For example: I capture your PC who has vital information to my PC. I beat him down to capture him. He knows he's going to be questioned on vital information, but rather than giving it up, he just types /c die.

Which, to me, would seem lame - just a way to deprive another player from getting the information they needed or the sacrifice they wanted.

Also, as a side note, while I am not completely sure, I believe Dwarves can live well past 200 years old.

We also have to keep in mind that 99% of all PC's see worse than the standard beat down on typical quests. It just feels lame to /c die in PvP, when most people wouldn't do it once they achieve "Near Death" status during quests.

During interogations, why could the victum not die...it has happend. The interogator could have gotten carried away and hit them one to many times.

I don't think many players would want to die during PVP, but why shouldn't the option be there. This would lend another deminsion to the game, and the chance that the 'beater' could end up in major trouble.

Also this is not just limited to PVP....when a Player tired of a character (it does happen) they could let them die during a quest, or have them OD in lower, the possibilites are just about endless.

Well if they really want to '/c die', we'll use the example of a sacrifice, a character can kill the sacrifice, but it'll be considered OOC. This is assuming a DM is not present. If a DM is present, then the DM can use the 'Kill' DM ability, but otherwise it'll take a PvP attack to do it.

Now I agree, it'd be lame if they '/c die'd on me when I was dragging them to a cell (though that's what a Guard Rod is for in the Watch and SG) , but maybe it should require special circumstances, and has to be RP'd out.

In the example of a dying soldier, I would suggest they make a roll first, agreed upon by the players. If the roll wins, the soldier lives. If not, he can '/c die'. Needless to say, this can be well abused, so a great ammount of care must be done in implementing it.

The example of a Prisoner, they should have to RP it, for example, holding their breath long enough so they die from lack of air. This time they roll to win, the DC being agreed upon by the players, or use something like poison (if the person has it) to kill themselves, but must give the other player a chance to counter-act. Again, easily abused, so great care must be taken with it.

But this is me just putting stuff into the air.

Luke Danger

The example of a Prisoner, they should have to RP it, for example, holding their breath long enough so they die from lack of air. This time they roll to win, the DC being agreed upon by the players, or use something like poison (if the person has it) to kill themselves, but must give the other player a chance to counter-act. Again, easily abused, so great care must be taken with it.

But this is me just putting stuff into the air.

You cannot die from holding your breath. It's impossible.

A "self-harm"/"suicide" command has been discussed before and more or less vetoed by the dms. The option to die is there as long as you have a dm.

sylvyrdragon-

Let me put it this way. In almost every case, the 'beater' is better off when the person dies. Why? Because that person cannot live and go warn the proper authorities. You can still be arrested for assault and attempted murder, executed or exiled.

The vast majority of PvP does not take place where it is easily seen by NPC's or other players. It takes place somewhere there are few, if any witnesses - and the witnesses are likely somehow involved.

In virtually every case there is a DM present to observe these things. Sending a friendly message over the DM channel allows the DM's to use their judgement. Your 16 Con Barbarian with the feats Toughness and Great Fortitude is not likely to die from being kicked in the head, when in the past, as he achieved level 9, he's been hit in the head by far worse.

A /c die command is simply too abuse-able to be put into the game, IMO.

Luke-

Poison exists in game that allows you to do exactly that.

Additionally, holding your breath does not kill you. You simply pass out and start to breathe again.

Thomas_Not_very_wise

Luke Danger

The example of a Prisoner, they should have to RP it, for example, holding their breath long enough so they die from lack of air. This time they roll to win, the DC being agreed upon by the players, or use something like poison (if the person has it) to kill themselves, but must give the other player a chance to counter-act. Again, easily abused, so great care must be taken with it.

But this is me just putting stuff into the air.

You cannot die from holding your breath. It's impossible.

Ah, K, made the assumption it could be done if you held it long enough.

It can't be done, it's a subconscious reaction to breathe if you can... Same thing if you're underwater, before you drown you will inhale in panic.

Meldread

I understand that it COULD be abused, but so can most things in game. (How many times has the same character run a particular quest, fully knowing the outcome and profits to be made?)

I guess I'm just an optimist, and hope that players would not be willing to just kill a character to tick off someone. There are few things that my main character would die before doing, and I think having the option to do so would be an interesting option.

I'm not saying that it should be an automatic responce, but if the player would rather have their rogue killed before he would give up certain information, then why should they not opt to do so?

I understand your concern for abuse, and the logic that a 9th level fighter (or what ever class) should be able to with stand a single blow to the head, but we've seen it in RL..a professional boxer gets hit one to many times (a single blow in this bought) and he died in the middle of the ring. A professional body builder, trips and falls down the stairs, dies. These things can and do happen.

I also can't imagine a 9th level character's player willing to just die, from a single blow, after all the work and time it takes to get to that level. Now a 3rd level character yes, and they (depending on class) could feesibly be killed with such.

That is just my opinion and $0.02.

Example: 7th level PC (by the way you shouldn't know this) gets fugue'd twice in one quest and is now 5th level. You think he is a 7th level tough guy. Yet the player of said character is role playing headaches and vomiting and plans to do so until he gets his levels back. Somebody grabs him and gives him a beating. I don't care what his Con is, he has already lost enough and this beating puts him over the top, his heart stops and he dies.

There are all kinds of possiblities here. Dwarves can live to be over 250 but that doesn't mean an almost 200 year old dwarf cant kick the bucket of a heart attack after exserting himself that much.

I agree that it can be abused but I also see the people doing the beating abusing the fact that they know the PC wont die, so whats the diferance? People with missing teeth, split lips, broken noses and the thought they will be killed anyway are highly unlikly to tell you anything. More likely they will spit in your face and call your mother bad names. Yet it is asumed that because you beat them down and rolled a good threat check that they have to talk. Me, I would jump off a cliff before telling them where they can find my family so they can kill them too.

And it wouldn't be all about some DC save check, their would have to be modifiers based on races' involved, alignments, Faith, etc.. In other words, an evil orc interigating a dwarven paladin he just beat-down is not going to get any of the answers he wants.

I think if you really feel you should die to the massive beating your receiving, just send the player who's beating you a tell asking them to switch to FD if they plan to beat you further. I think most would be delighted to oblige at the thought of that sweet sweet loot bag corpses tend to drop these days!

I like the temporary level drain or Meldred's suggestions to achieve the same or almost the same effects without the level drain.

If someone goes though the pain of scripting this, is there anyway to stop the autostand that always happens at a crappy time in the RP? I H8 teh aUt0sT4ndzorZ!1!

Rip,

Also don't forget that sometmes those extremely long beatings are to slowly make you drop pack articles and eventully lose your armor and weapons all over the floor.

The first time I was in an overly long Subdual I was wondering why they kept hitting me while I was unconscious till I started seeing my gear all over the floor and the light went off in my head just as the blood drained out of nose.

Back on topic: No /c die. There are too many sicko's around with mental issues and the last thing EfU needs is allowing them to walk into city center every night to off them selves for the hell of it. Then there will be complaints that it was "in a quickslot and I accidentily clicked on it, DM please give me everything back the way it was or I will put in a rant goodbye post!" A temporary level drain sounds kewl enough to make the scumbags that "just don't get it" to at least understand that attacking back is not the smartest thing to do.

Agreed No /c die

I will oppose a death script if it's the last thing I do!!!!!!!!

The /c die would only fire if they were blacked out or worse. random dying for the lolz should not be possible.

also, we are long overdue for a Yank_armor, yank_helmet, etc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Smashing someone with an axe as a method of undressing a unconscoius person should not be possible. they should be forced to RP it out, or at hte very least, just yank you, rather than do nothing other than not cancel the attack, and suddenly you are naked.

On a tangent to the discussion proper, I am not in favour of a /die function at all. Minefield topic aside, I think it would be used too many times by people who are upset at the time of PvP, but would then (after calming down) wish to return to playing their characters.

I like the idea of level drain for a beating. To me it matches many of the things that you would be experiencing.

For a mage it would mean not being able to do those complex spells as your fingers are battered and swollen.

For a cleric, their head would be ringing, so they too may not be able to concentrate fully and access their most potent blessings.

Fighters may well lose the skill to complete tricky attacks (feats), like Knockdown or Called Shot.

A rogue could not move as quietly or hide as well.

Any generally of course all classes would lose HP.

This to me, far more accurately reflects getting a nasty beating.

Such abilities could be returned in the same way as the normal Level Drain spell effect, i.e you can't just chug a potion you need to get to a high level cleric/temple.

Wait, I though level drain went off on rest? If not, I've just made a horribly overpowered suggestion, and ability drain would be better as you can rest that off.