This quest is way to hard for a small group. I was with a group of 5, all pretty high level, 6-9, and we got mercilessly slaughtered at the very beginning.

With about a Dozen Crossbowmen spawning at the very gates, three Duegar clerics, 7 battle ragers. and a bunch of sentries, at the very beginning.

We didn't even get past the gates.

That sounds to damn hard.

Also, they spotted my dwarf when he was invisible.

This also happened to me. Luckily a dm was watching, and they did admit the spawn was ridiculous. I did this with about 5 or 6 people.

The break-in is the hardest part of the quest, imo.

I once did the quest and it had double the number of normal spawns, but we were still successful (and it was damn fun - the first time I did the quest, as well). We slaughtered nearly 200 Duegar by the end.

However, I think there should be an alternative route when trying to get inside - such as a secret entrance that allows you to enter without going through the gate. That will allow you to sneak around behind the Duegar and take them out that way.

Maybe a secret make shift escape tunnel or something that ends up having some strong single guardian in it that you have to defeat. Or... maybe the tunnel takes you under water where you have to battle against some undead shield dwarf spirits. (Although ideally it should be easier to use the tunnel than to attack the gates directly.)

I was in Thomas's group, and frankly I was amazed. The spawns were more than twice as many as I had ever seen on that quest before, and I must've done it near a dozen times now on different characters.

A dozen crossbowmen isn't enough also, there was about a dozen on each side of the gate. Despite their meagre +3 to hit, they will butcher you unless each member of the group has imp invis, stoneskin and 50+ hp.

I know the payout is awesome, but seeing as our group was in no way poorly put together - we were all well equipped good players with decent builds - and we couldn't even make it past the group, I'd support toning it down slightly, atleast tone down the scaling.

Frankly I've never had a problem with it. Two people with decently high AC using shields usually won't get hit except on a 19-20. But yes, I do agree the number of spawns seems high.

Using something like Hammer of the Gods on a group, or something similar to give your fighters time to close in usually helps though.

I wonder if someone has been tweaking this! I have been meaning to look at this quest a bit, this thread is a good reminder.

I am going to make an assumption based on some in game observations. Assumption: the code behind the game mechanics is calling some random number generator to calculate your attack roles and the npc's attack roles. Example: - NPC Crossbow Attack Druegar - Base Attack +3. - Calculated Attack: Base Attack (3) + Random Number (1 - 20) = Attack.

Random number generators dont really produce random numbers. They are usually a series of math operations on some seed value. The seed value is the key, it is some number (system time is something often used as a key value) feed in as the base value for the math operations that will eventually produce your 'random number'. As long as the seed value continues to change you will in effect receive "random numbers" out of the random number generator.

Why is this a problem? If you have a lot of NPCs attacking your party at the same time ... they are all calling the -same- random number generator to calculate their attack roles. That can result in the seed value not having changed significantly enough to produce truly random numbers. This can either work for or against you. If all the NPCs are rolling 1ish type numbers you are good to go, however if several of them all roll a 20 at the same time your party is seriously screwed. Now we have a scenario with lots of NPCs who have a very low attack raiting all scoring critical hits very close together. All of this of course assumes my assumptions are correct, however I have seen effects a few times that lead me to believe I am right.

I don't usually post in make it easier / make it harder suggestions but having read this one i strongly agree, the simple number of duergar warriors was too much when i last did it.

we were a VERY well equiped group, and strongly built. Without being so we would have been wiped out... maybe that is intentional? I guess such a feat as raiding a duergar lair shouldn't be easy?

Thomas_Not_very_wise This quest is way to hard for a small group. I was with a group of 5, all pretty high level, 6-9, and we got mercilessly slaughtered at the very beginning.

With about a Dozen Crossbowmen spawning at the very gates, three Duegar clerics, 7 battle ragers. and a bunch of sentries, at the very beginning.

We didn't even get past the gates.

That sounds to damn hard.

Also, they spotted my dwarf when he was invisible.

Get a stronger group!

Two level 9's, three high level fighters, and a level 9 bard.

Can you get stronger?

I'll take a wild guess that it was so hard BECAUSE you had three level 9 characters. The Clown quest scales in a similar manner, if you have a few level 8'ers in it then the spawn count increases almost exponentially instead of linearly.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Two level 9's, three high level fighters, and a level 9 bard.

Can you get stronger?

Yes.

I can only say it is amazing how fast your health drops when about 40 archers shoot at you. I went quite fast from about 90hp less healthy state :)

To me it sounds a bit artificial or meta-gaming if it is mandatory to have low level adventures with for the spawn to be manageable. This just sounds like a case of higher level spawn being a bit too extreme?

I would even go so far as to say that if there was just less duergar with crossbow, we could have taken down them in close combat. But having most of the 40-60(?) duergar shooting 3-5 people...its just not survivable. Especially as you have to go to the main gate, and expose yourself to the missile fire of every duergar.

Only possible counter tactic I can think of (afterwards) is to have everyone with bow and shoot half of them from one corner over the fence...but even then you have to have fairly many people with you for it to be effective.

Mm. I remember doing this quest with Senestia, Salvador, Edmund, Percy (all of whom were like, level 8+), and maybe some others who I can't remember at the moment.

Oh, Lana. Cruzel had his combat logger thing going and apparently there were like, 250 spawns in total in the entire quest. My guess would be that a 100 of that was at the gates.

I wouldn't say we had too much trouble breaking in as our frontliners were buffed to high heavens, but it was ridiculous and funny seeing Salvador get peppered with forty plus crossbow bolts four rounds into the quest area. I honestly thought the DMs were spicing us and spawned in an repeater crossbow or something of the like.

This quest is extremely well balanced, and presents a good, but not insurmountable challenge. It shouldn't be changed at all. Use potions and appropriate spells, and 40-60 duergar shooting at you won't be so bad.

Modify your tactics, not the quest.

What happens when there is no lvl 7+ wizard or high end cleric available? Plenty of consumables were used, and our frontline was still gunned down unreasonably fast, I didn't even have time to fire off a heal wand.

When 'tactics' means bringing specific classes of specific lvls, I'd say that just helps argue for the quest being too damned hard. Also note we didn't exactly charge across the ground, making certain to draw the attention of all the crossbowmen and firing off all their traps.

We used invisibility and appeared right in their midst. That is tactic, having buffers in addition to that, is not a change of tactics, but rather a change of server population.

use a potion of blur

We all did, but me, and I was the second one to go. We had sickeningly high AC, one being 38 AC against Duegar, he still ended up retreating.

I personally had 31 ac against Duegar. Still lost. still died.

Way to many spawns. While it may be doable, it is NOT in line with another 4-9 quest, trolls.

If we were to compare the two quests, Duegar camp is WAY harder. WAY tougher. And WAY more rewarding.

Quests that allow 4-9 should be easier, if not more doable, than 5-9.

Why Thomas?

Not all quests are the same. Not all quests can be done with any party, at any level. It presents a challenge. If you don't want that, do trolls.

Isn't that somewhat Metagaming? I mean if you have to have certain CLASSES to do the quest, certain buffs, potions, etc that is metagamming.

How would my 5th level character know that they need a 8th level Wizard or Cleric? She has never been there and wouldn't know to what to expect.

Know what I mean??

The argument that you need a level 7+ is fallacious, at best. This quest can be done at level 6, or less.

It's an entire fort of Duergar. It's not a great logical leap IC (for most characters) to assume that you must be a) prepared, and b) capable. It's not metagaming.

If you don't want the challenge, if you don't want to expend supplies, and if you don't want to take a small risk, don't do it. Do something easy. Some of us however actually like challenges, and would like them to remain.

It just looks like frontliners need heavy consumables like displacement potions, blur, etc. I do feel that people are relying on PC buffs to penny pinch when the mages should be using the spells slots for fireballing the vast amount of duergar with frontliners having using their elemental protections, and having bard song and bless up.

That's my observation, although I haven't finished a duergar fort in a while.

You are missing the point entirely Corduroys, we all prepared extensively, we all are capable and the frontliners made use of consumables. The reason for our suggestion, and the target of it, is the ridiculous scaling of the quest.

We are even saying it is easier to do it as a lvl 6 than as a 7+ group, considering how it when you bring lower lvls doesn't spawn such ludicrous amounts of crossbowmen at the gate.

What I mentioned was that the only way we could possibly have been able to survive that defence was if we had brought lvl 7+ casters - with casters I am referring to wizards or sorcerers - to buff us with stoneskin and improved invisibility.

Also, this wasn't even a small challenge, this was a butcher house. As Viconius commented his 99 hp dropped in a single round, despite having high ac.

We all like challenges, what we don't like is when quests who one can claim to know the difficulty level of - a fairly difficult, consumable costing expedition as this is - turn out to scale in such a way as to mean "Retreat or Die" for those involved.

Kedrick was with Senestia on that quest. I was lagging insanely. It was my first time doing the quest, and my second or third time questing with Senestia. (We had done Jubal before that, I think.)

I have to say, even though we rocked it, Kedrick was only level 6 at the time so he couldn't really hit them. So he helped the group by charging them, grabbing the attention of a few, and going into Improved Expertise mode while Salvador hacked the remainders to bits.

I have to say, it was amazing fun simply due to the epic nature.

I think it was a bug though - and we spawned double or triple the normal amount of Duegar. This might have been what happened to this group, but they were significantly less prepared.

The quest really is fine, except for some of the duergar marksmen seeing through invisibility. I think that's some kind of NWN bug though, rather than a trait given to them.

Caddies, I can say that if we brought ONE level 4, or level 5, the Duegar spawns would of been cut down by -half- at least.

I think the quest is perfectly fine, though lag might cause it to become a mess and perhaps the level range is wrong, never have done it at level 5 or so though.

MisterPAIN It just looks like frontliners need heavy consumables like displacement potions, blur, etc. I do feel that people are relying on PC buffs to penny pinch when the mages should be using the spells slots for fireballing the vast amount of duergar with frontliners having using their elemental protections, and having bard song and bless up.

That's my observation, although I haven't finished a duergar fort in a while.

Being a person that spends thousands of gold each day/every second day on potions I can say that it's not practical to use anything above second level spells in potions. So an argument for more fireballs (third circle) to save gold is not a very clever argument at all. Potions such as haste aren't exactly cheap. In fact using one is pretty much the entire payment down the drain half the time.

It's also not hard to properly ration spells to buff one-two individuals whilst maintaining plenty offensive spells if you so choose!

But anyway back on topic.

I dunno what happened to this group so I really can't say. I'm not sure it's bad tactics on their part and I do love a challenge and always have. I've never personally experienced any difficulty on this quest after some of its earlier adjustments. It may be a rare scaling issue based on the level range of the group.

You guys had two L9s, a L8 and some others? You're going to get big spawns. Not much else to say-- as Corduroys has said, its challenging and some of us like to keep it that way. It is not brokenly hard at all.

To be quite honest, the issue is likely other high end quests being that much easier than they should be -- though really I will give it a brief lookover. No promises to alter difficulty at all yet though.

It's worth noting that the treasure that drops on this quest can be very nice as well.

Last time I did this quest, i had my logger going. there were 211 duergar in total, aproximately 63 crossbowmen and other assorted baddies at the entrance.

however, I'll point out that all of these crossbowmen at the start combined had an accuracy of 32%

Given the number of monsters there are being concatenated in that stat, they are missing a damn lot.

The party I was with, which was a level 9 fighter, a level 7-8 fighter/rogue, a level 9 cleric, a level 5 wizard, and a level 8? mage of some sort, a level 9 ranger, a level 9 druid.

There was almost no difficulty in breaching those gates. Its really just a matter of how you do it. No, not every party is going to be able to do it. but just dropping out of invis and still being shot by all of them, isn't really tactics, btw. maybe, if you consider not getting shot at while you run up, but otherwise you're still being hit by the same amount of dudes, teh same way. You're just closer.

Tactics are things such as throwing weapons, summons, anything that would stop them from attacking. These are amazingly effective on this quest, and it just comes down to a matter of you being willing to spend money on supplies so you can meet the challenge.

Personally I think this quest is too easy after the gate. After the gate it's piss easy, and could use some beefing up. to rise to the level of a higher end quest.

The gate is to hard, the rest of the quest could use some beefing!

If people have done it, it is not too hard.

it is a challenge, yes. But it is not too hard unless it cannot be done. breaking into a well guarded fortress is not supposed to be easy. It makes perfect sense given the shit that lives in the underdark, they are going to prepare to be stormed, and have a high concentration of defence there.

If you think it is too hard or not fun, do not do it. There are others who enjoy the challenge, which is why they do do it.

I loved this quest when it exploded.

It was one of my favorite all time quests the first few times I did it with Salvador. Also, the spawns don't seem to care if you bring lower levels with you or not.

I loved it.

I'd say this quest is a tough one, but fairly scaled, and pretty rewarding in both xp and loot. I only mind the length and the distance.

The main entrance is the real challenge, just like Gob. fort or Orog Fort, and it should be as in any defensive place. But once you're in, you're good to go.

As someone pointed out, it is a fort, caved in for protection, held by a warrior race. Taking this quest means you should be prepared to lose some of your teammates. You are told straight of that the duergar wiped out a whole dwarf clan...

It takes real preparation, not just buffs. It's not meta as you more or less know what you're getting into. Just like the other forts, it's a quest where pure strength probably doesn't work best: the enemy side is made of warriors defending a stronghold.

Just like in any stronghold attack, you need a plan: sneak tells you what to expect, if there are other ways, etc, then you plan ahead: who will do what, where, what spells are needed, etc. If the opposition is a barrier of 50 archers, charging in is not the best plan, period.

Thus the need for casters. It's one of the quests where they can make a real difference: mass damage spells, clouds, etc, can be really usefull by gaining you a few rounds, or summons immune to arrows, make everyone invisible so that everyone reachs the right spot before launching the assault, etc. IN ADDITION to the usual buffs, which never last long enough because the quest is long.

The folks who were wiped out by the quest were vets, with high lvl pcs, but i'd be tempted to say high lvl spawns do not require the same tactics as medium lvl ones. I've yet to see invisible/ sneaky people going all the way in, killing the boss and back out when it applies. There was a thread about flying chosen and ogres going the same way. High lvl means deadly spawns, which you are not required to slay.

I do know that dying in high lvl means losings months of play in terms of xp, and i know how that feels.

What i'm trying to say is that we are way too used to "buffs+charge= victory", especially vets. It's the same issue when a dm chimes in.

My two cents.

Um letsplayforfun while I agree with you on many points. The "vet's aren't used to charging fortresses" comment is kind of silly considering how long two of the fortress quests you mentioned have been around. Goblin fort hasn't really been changed hugely since the very early days. (Except perhaps loot tables!)

I would think it's not vet's but newer folk who wouldn't be used to the buff buff victory tactic.

I've never done that quest (not been playing long) but letsplayforfun's tactics are close to what I've used to de-fail the goblin/Ettin raid on my Bard when I was with some very gung-ho warriors :) .

Whenever I see casters and bowmen in the rear, I yell a warning and chuck out some Choking Dust to mess with them. Summoning creatures into the side or the rear will split the enemy's attention or get them flanked, summoning in front can provide an expedable target for their first barrage. Both of those jobs can even be done by the frontliners with some items, keeping casters free to buff/use their own disruption spells, maybe Darkness (as you can't save against it), Earthquake (it can KD for 1d4 turns in EfU)or something? Yes, darkness would hide them from you, but then you just shoot the ones you haven't used it at. Hmm. I think I want a Wand of Darkness now...

People, just buy a catapult and ammo somewhere and use it to put some artilery attacks on the fort, it'll loosen them up enough that you can rush the breach without getting killed.

I haven't done it myself, but personally, tactics are very important in this, especially when going up against a fortified target.

(just don't hit a friendly target!)

Luke Danger People, just buy a catapult and ammo somewhere and use it to put some artilery attacks on the fort

That would be awesome, but fireball wands work quite well too.

Luke Danger People, just buy a catapult and ammo somewhere and use it to put some artilery attacks on the fort, it'll loosen them up enough that you can rush the breach without getting killed.

I haven't done it myself, but personally, tactics are very important in this, especially when going up against a fortified target.

(just don't hit a friendly target!)

I've only seen ONE portable catapult.

It's also not practical unless you have a bag of holding. They weigh a ton.

Seriously, all you need is a few minor AC buffs on your warrior guys that any cleric can cast. Send 'em forward and enjoy the slaughter. I never really used any fancy tactics, just buff and charge really. If I'm with other warriors who can do more damage than me, I charge first, grab their attention and go into improved expertise mode.

The other warriors charge past me while I stand there with my Tower Shield up, catching the bolts, and hack them to bits.

If you want to be fancy throw some choking powder to one side of them while you hack at the other side. Squishies should also stay back.

I mean, I've done the quest with Wizards and we didn't even use AE spells. It's just good old fashioned AC vs a huge Mob and common sense. I think maybe, while clearing out the -entire- entrance area I healed once.

Oh, and I really wouldn't suggest a wizard to cast fireballs breaking into the area. He'd grab agro, and unless he's buffed to high heaven with decent AC... which is rather pointless since those buffs should have been placed on the fighters... he's going to die rather fast. Just go hide behind a rock or something after doing the buffing. Wait to cast a fireball later, once you move further into the quest area. As has been pointed out, you really can't escape their bolts by going invis, if you want to help out hurl a stinking cloud or something then run behind a rock.

Choking powder shouldnt work. HELO DUERGAR IMMUNE TO POISON! if choking powder works it should be fixed.

-DRD

Once again whirling off topic, this is a rather off topic discussion isn't it! As far as choking powder goes it uses a fortitude saving throw but for some reason the effect itself counts as mind-effecting. Not sure if it's even fixable and I'm sure if it was it would be fixed by now!

Carrying on the whirl, there's actually a library text written by the Mithrilsouls that recommends the stuff. Besides, it's not a poison so much as an irritant anyway. Basically it's EfU teargas.

Why this obsession on killing the duergars at the entrance? Just go invis and sneak past them!

If the duergars still shoot at you, this may be because they have listen. In this case, silence spell can be useful.

Life.Is.Not.Fair I am going to make an assumption based on some in game observations. Assumption: the code behind the game mechanics is calling some random number generator to calculate your attack roles and the npc's attack roles. Example: - NPC Crossbow Attack Druegar - Base Attack +3. - Calculated Attack: Base Attack (3) + Random Number (1 - 20) = Attack.

Random number generators dont really produce random numbers. They are usually a series of math operations on some seed value. The seed value is the key, it is some number (system time is something often used as a key value) feed in as the base value for the math operations that will eventually produce your 'random number'. As long as the seed value continues to change you will in effect receive "random numbers" out of the random number generator.

Why is this a problem? If you have a lot of NPCs attacking your party at the same time ... they are all calling the -same- random number generator to calculate their attack roles. That can result in the seed value not having changed significantly enough to produce truly random numbers. This can either work for or against you. If all the NPCs are rolling 1ish type numbers you are good to go, however if several of them all roll a 20 at the same time your party is seriously screwed. Now we have a scenario with lots of NPCs who have a very low attack raiting all scoring critical hits very close together. All of this of course assumes my assumptions are correct, however I have seen effects a few times that lead me to believe I am right.

IIRC, a random number generator's seed is usually based on a timer, so the sequence is different for different times (down to the seconds or even fractions of a second). However, the numbers are called from it in sequence as needed and are not tied to a timer. So 10 duergar accessing the RNG are still going to pull sequential numbers from the stack, so to speak, not the same number at once.

Range is truthfully the thing that can tend to easily cut down groups, since if you are not in combat, you are considered flat-footed and some other things, which reduces your AC against them. Also, don't forget the flanking AB they get when you go into combat with other creatures. Now put those in a large amount, flanking AB, flat footed the second you finish off your current foe, and crossbow damage + the Criticals. This is extremely devestating if you have alot of AC coming from DEX.

I agree that there should be a side/secret entrace, make in concealed and a requirement of a decent search check, and then a low locked DC. Also with the side entrance added, make the AB of the crossbow men higher, and such.

This quest is a mother. No questions.

however, consider this. The goblin quest was originally this hard also. People hated doing that quest because of the strategic positioning of the traps, archers, assassins and troopers.

you are breaking into a fortress of a well established Underdark race! It aint gonna be easy! Also, they killed shield dwarves....dwarven fighters aren't easy to kill....so that should give you an indication of the difficulty.

I can easily say that this quest CAN get harder. I led a group with Corrine one time on this and the DM threw everything including the kitchen sink at us. We had not only those archers (which with dozens firing at a time can kill almost anyone quick) but he was also lambasting us with Artillery from catapults and a half dozen mages.

It took us like 3 hours to complete the quest, used nearly all our supplies, and all but two of our 8 in our party died (most of them died multiple times).

Honestly, despite the difficulty of this quest, its very accurate to how it would be should a real duergar fort exist. While I hate nearly dying before I run up to the crossbow people, its the nature of it.

I mean there are a few quests that have creatures with instant kill powers yet no one complains about those. least here, you have a chance of healing up....no 'make your save or die' scenarios.

Quest is fine the way it is, doesn't need to be changed. Imp invis gives 50% concealment, potion of entropic shield should cost around 40gp and gives 25% concealment vs ranged, if your really set up combine the two for 75% concealment vs duergar crossbowmen, now laugh at their pathetic attempts to hit you. That is one, amongst many many tactics you can use.

I don't even find duergar fortress to be all that difficult and I've done it both spiced and unspiced. Just not one of those quests where you can randomly slap together 8 people and succeed. At very least two-three people with a half decent people who have fair supplies and then the rest of your group can be rogues with 8 dex 8 str and improved unarmed strike for all it matters.

Bottom line, good quest, good reward, done it dozens of times, not overly difficult.

Just a note to goblin butchers comment, concealment bonuses do not stack. So you will only get the highest concealment bonus you have.

As far as the quest goes it's not that hard, but can easily tear apart a careless/unprepared group, but then again at least the duergar don't all use their invisibility racial power!

I truly understand what you all are saying, but this quest is not on Par with a 4-9 quest range (Then again, Hook horrors is a BEAST, and I'd not do it in a million years unless I know I am ready for it). A larger quest range perhaps we be better indicative of the challenge on this quest.

No offense to those involved, but this random number generator conspiracy stuff is bogus.

We did this quest on the Mithrilsouls (my first time on this particular quest) and a huge lag spike hit right as we charged the entrance. The mixture of high level characters resulted in a spawn of something like 75 duergar at the entrance. Most of us didn't make it inside despite our builds and buffs, which is to say something as the group was simply the best I've ever been with for demolishing QAs. The main culprit in this instance was lag though, as people couldn't heal or retreat before they were dead.

I then did this quest more recently with a mixed group. I was, quite understandably, EXTREMELY nervous and prepared to suck invis and run, but the spawn at the gates was almost laughable by comparison. In the Mithrilsouls I could have cleared these gates with a buff or two by myself.

I think, if anything, it's really a scaling issue. While a good group can plow through the high end spawn its not something to smirk at, and there is the issue of getting at least an equal or equivalent return on the resources you use completing a quest. I wouldn't mind the high end version of the gate area being toned down, but it would be very wise to make sure you bring high level clerics and wizards for buffs on such outings to make them approach profitable.

I would suggest damage reduction spells against ranged foes like this, since ranged weapons on NWN don't get enchantment unless it has the "Enchantment to damage" Property, which would be pretty rare on the server and probably not availble to all in the Dreugar army.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a level Nine with two four's will get the same difficult spawn as eight level nines will, as I've done it both ways and it seemed much the same (at least at the gate part).

Other than this apparent lack of scaling that I've encountered, its a nice quest.

Disagree strongly with Corrine ; if all Underdark races were as deadly as they could (should?) be the setting would be absolutely impossible. Instead of standing there firing at you, some of the Duergar would run inside immediately and Graqual and his boys would use tunnels to get behind your happy crew that's attacking the gate defense, gank you from invisibility (which they all can cast yet never use), and do the Texas Two-Stomp on your skulls before you could say "wtf this quest is way too hard, balance plz!"

Anonymous Why this obsession on killing the duergars at the entrance? Just go invis and sneak past them!