Telling what lvl someone is.....

I see two main problems with changing it to the way it is now.

#1. Organizing for groups, is a pain, requiring even more OOC chatter. Before you only had to worry about someone having done it before. Now you need to worry about people being the wrong lvl, but you can't identify them to tell. How many thousands of time has a group leader said "Eh? You look a little too fresh for this" with a polite OOC message along the lines of "Hey man... sorry, your too low/high lvl for the quest :("

How many times have you *NOT* asked someone to join you, because you as a player can tell their lvl range, and they are out of it?

#2. Killing lower levels. How many lvl 2s and 3s are going to die because we can't tell they are low lvl?

There are some really good reasons to leave it as is, but I don't feel they outweigh the reasons to change it back.

Vesa #2. Killing lower levels. How many lvl 2s and 3s are going to die because we can't tell they are low lvl?

Sure it makes things a little more difficult but he pro's to it outweigh the cons Imho. I'm too lazy the outline why now but I might later*.

* Key word MIGHT

Pah, personally, I don't know the level requirements for half of the quests out there anyway, and it's never been much of a problem, so I don't mind particularly much :).

As for #2, I say that if you send someone to the fugue, they should have given you plenty of reason to do so. And have they given plenty of reason, levels shouldn't matter. Have they, on the flipside, -not- given you plenty of reason... Well, what are you doing, killing them in the first place?

I wholeheartedly support the removal of challenge ratings and buff listings; It truly gives a whole new level of immersion, removes OOC level/loot jealousy/metagaming/what have you, and suddenly tacks a whole new thrill onto exploration.

Wubu, 1.67 <3!

I actually support Vesa.

What can I say? I like to metagame.

It does make gathering for quests an OOC pain in the ass, and it will require even more OOC chatter to know what level everyone is to ensure questing is possible.

Also, I am not sure how it works for NPCs, but when I always saw a creature that was impossible I assumed it was fair game to claim it looks bigger, tougher, better equiped, seasoned, experienced, whatever- That way you'd know attacking said creature was suicide. (Gargantuan Deep Lizard anybody? >.>)

For PCs, you can usually assume the ones who are nicely equiped are a rather high level. For NPCs they have generic skin. Thus the Drow with chain-mail and a sword might seem like cannon fodder, but in reality he's actually level 18. I just don't see the entertainment factor of a group running across random creatures in the Underdark and being slaughtered because they couldn't properly gauge the risks.

I understand there are also perfectly fine arguments to counter this; "You can't always tell how tough someone is by looking at them" for example. Which is true, I simply think having a party of lowbies thoroughly slaughtered by a creature would be far less fun.

In anycase, that's just my input, I imagine you'll all get to see how it works out :P

At first I did not really enjoy not seeing the CR and buffs on others, but now I have come to embrace it. It adds a real mystery to other PCs where a powerful person can act meek, or the weak try to talk tough. As for quest issues, I find little problem with it- What class do they seem to be? do they have a rather low/high HP? If so, ask them OOC in a tel what level they are. I have had gruff PCs of mine boot people for less than that before (were they classist against mages? Maaaaybe). As for PvP, any decent RPer should always leave a non-conflict out, and if the other player is too stubborn or blind to see the (often obvious) non-conflict resolution, subdue 'em. I have never had a reason to send anyone to the beyond, and as a fellow player who cringes (and often permadeaths the dead PC) whenever he loses 1/3 of his xp, you would really have to piss me off both IC and OOC to warrant full damage from me. So, I say keep the ignorance of other players' status, it really makes for fun RP and adds realism IMO.

I don't mind not seeing the challenge rating vs PCs, but I do think it makes what is already dangerous that much more dangerous by not getting some sense of relative strength from any hostile creatures.

I think it would be great if the challenge rating ONLY comes up when your encounter is HOSTILE. So, that would would mean all default baddies will show a challenge rating, and all PCs and NPCs that are normally neutral but turned hostile, will then show a challenge rating. This way, a PC will know what he is getting into with normal baddies and will suddenly know what they are up against in a turned-hostile situation.

Bindragon I think it would be great if the challenge rating ONLY comes up when your encounter is HOSTILE. So, that would would mean all default baddies will show a challenge rating, and all PCs and NPCs that are normally neutral but turned hostile, will then show a challenge rating. This way, a PC will know what he is getting into with normal baddies and will suddenly know what they are up against in a turned-hostile situation.

The easiest solution is, rather than make the metagaming easier, just have the quest giving NPCs let people know the full level range up front when you talk to them alone.

Then when you make a sending or go to gather help, you can just say "(level range x-y)" at the end so people know if the quest can apply to them. Then no one needs to sort through anything or do a lot of extra ooc chatter.

Easy enough.

I think some of them have the requirements on the examine, but don't quote me on that. And also don't quote me that that is the case for all of them if it is true at all. My memory fails me today but it feels like a correct statement.

That is not always possible, a lot of time quests are put together with those standing around the tavern, a couple of PC"s talking then those around asking/asked to join.

When I start a quest or think of planning something i like to scan the challenge ratings of those around to be able to tell where we can go, and how many about that are in my level range to actually plan something.

Also as far as PvP goes having the challenge rating show should not effect it. If both parties are RPing it (the only time is should legally be happening) then both parties involved should be able to be intimidated/persuaded out of it regardless of their respective challenge ratings and take things on a face value, of what the PC looks like, how bigger he is than me, how persausive his arguments etc.

Also i've always thought as challenge ratings as something in the stance and confidence a PC/NPC gives off. A high level character would have faced A LOT of dangerous monsters/areas, that kind of thing can only give a character a self confidence, enabling a level 20 halfling to out bully a level 8 half orc for e.g

buffs showing is useful for cleric characters when trying to buff a party. If there is more than one buffer in the party I don't want to waste buffing the same party member twice, i would rather do it to someone else that needs it, checking the buffs on someone is a quick way of doing this. And it is not always easy telling who has buffed what, in a two/three cleric party it is hard to keep track of the buff-a-thon at the beggining of a quest.

so yeah, i reckon bring them back :)

Sadfadlasdah Also as far as PvP goes having the challenge rating show should not effect it. If both parties are RPing it (the only time is should legally be happening) then both parties involved should be able to be intimidated/persuaded out of it regardless of their respective challenge ratings and take things on a face value, of what the PC looks like, how bigger he is than me, how persausive his arguments etc.

Also i've always thought as challenge ratings as something in the stance and confidence a PC/NPC gives off. A high level character would have faced A LOT of dangerous monsters/areas, that kind of thing can only give a character a self confidence, enabling a level 20 halfling to out bully a level 8 half orc for e.g

buffs showing is useful for cleric characters when trying to buff a party. If there is more than one buffer in the party I don't want to waste buffing the same party member twice, i would rather do it to someone else that needs it, checking the buffs on someone is a quick way of doing this. And it is not always easy telling who has buffed what, in a two/three cleric party it is hard to keep track of the buff-a-thon at the beggining of a quest.

Its always possible.

"Want to help us with a job? We're dealing with undead goblins (lvl 4-6)?"

Wow that was easy. Its just eight extra characters in a sentence in the tavern. Very short, very easy, not very invasive.

It also has the added benefit of letting people unfamiliar with the quests know why they're not coming other than "you look too weak".

Half the time I organize quests, I still have to say it anyway for the people who have no idea what the quest levels are--including myself on most of them already.

No CR visible removes a lot of really pathetic problems with people cheating, while creating no problems that outweigh having to deal with cheaters in my mind. Making it slightly harder to equally hard to make parties for quests isn't a big deal.

Not being able to metagame what buffs a character has, and actually having to ask IC or invest in Spellcraft like you should do on a roleplay server anyway is hardly a complaint or issue I'd pay attention to. When in doubt, instead of clicking examine go "Did anyone cast Bull Strength on the half-orc yet?" Its perhaps a couple extra milliseconds of work.

I like not seeing it from the mystery and RP angles.

BUT! a character could examine a person to gauge the quality of their gear, the confidence of their step, the manner that they handle themselves... we as players cannot see that, our characters can.

One of my projects that I keep putting off is putting the quest requirements in the description of quest giving NPCs -- however, it's sort of tedious and I keep forgetting to do it.

The current situation is something of an experiment, but I'm inclined to say we should keep it.

The biggest issue for me is indeed I don't want people randomly targeting super low level PCs, and with the CR gone there's no easy way to determine that.

Not sure how many times I need to say it, but CR simply is not even remotely accurate in gauging the strength of NPCs. However, we will be looking to communicate more about what you see from observing a NPC in their descriptions.

BUT! a character could examine a person to gauge the quality of their gear, the confidence of their step, the manner that they handle themselves... we as players cannot see that, our characters can.

Clever characters can easily mislead other characters as to their true power by Not wearing impressive gear or deliberately acting nervous or shy. You take away that ability by keeping CRs. The fact of the matter is, it's really very hard to judge someone by their outward appearance, something I think should be obvious to anyone from everyday life. How many times have you met someone thinking one thing about them only to discover something else entirely once you got to know them a little better?

Let me illustrate my point with what I feel was a fantastic game experience for me as a player (and for my character) the other day. She was sitting in the Rock Bottom enjoying some milk and plottingly deviously with a friend, while slyly observing the behavior of a character that couldn't stop sobbing a few tables over. Needless to say, I the player (and thus the character) got the immediate impression that the character was whiney and pathetic...

Shortly thereafter, when we were flung together on a quest that saw both of us die, my (the player's) eyes and thus the character's eyes were opened wide when I/she saw the character kicking some serious butt.

If CRs had still been around, as a player I could not have helped that the way I RPed the character's perception of the situation would be changed as a result of knowing that the character was many levels higher than me. More important, as a player I got the excitement and thrill of seeing a character change before me (so to speak).

In summary: CRs inevitably lead to metagaming, like it or not, intentional or not. The lack of them only leads to greater immersion and an abundance of opportunities to roleplay.

It adds more fun, as well.

For those that played Baldur's Gate I, remember when you just escaped from Candlekeep, and set off to the Friendly Arm Inn. On your way, you would encounter the NPC called 'Old Man'. I acted real bitchy on him, for wasting my time, and sent him on his way.

Only later you found out he is Elminster, and just so happens to be a level 27 Archmage, and Chosen of Mystra, who could probably wipe out Baldur's Gate in a sneeze. Had I known that, I might have reconsidered insulting him. 8)

Arkov

This is an issue to work on ICly. There is no reason why you would automatically have this knowledge (spells on a character).

All the more reason for coding a few divination spells that can determine exactly that.

It's one of the reasons why divinations spells in general have never been implemented.. all the information those spells give you is ALREADY given by the interface usually. (mini maps, challenge ratings etc)

So I'm actually in favour of hiding information, just as long as it's not completely opaque to all possible attempts to discern something's nature/location.

The other way to approach it would of course be ACTUAL lore in books (or even a bard special ability item) that could be used on a creature to see if you KNOW any info on it... A bard may know that one of these creatures single handedly killed a band of duergar miners (which may or may not be the truth) but that can be at least a rough guide.

Also given that D&D is level based in it's very nature, and the fact that challenge ratings (5 colour nwn style) arent actual levels just range differences as a baseline guide, it's going to result in a lot of instant deaths of new players until their PLAYER behind the screen becomes "learned" in the ways of the server, but isnt that metagaming? What is means is that the veteran players have a distinct advantage over the newer players in what they know (and yes even for a new character they make, and yes it is a form of metagaming but who amoung you is going to pretend you dont know how dangerous a certain mission/creature is, maybe some will but how many will do it without a guaranteed escape route, knowing that it's certain death for you?) , and I'm sort of AGAINST people learning things by DEATH on a server where you're trying to get closer to the semi-permadeath nirvana so many servers strive for. As far as I'm concerned if you DIE you learn nothing about nothing and from RP perspective in respawning you should probably LOSE all memory of how it happened anyway which means you still learn nothing. It's a thorny issue.

Chaosprism, what you say about some things is kind of nonsense, really. Sure, I never have a character without an "escape". I always carry an extra potion of Invisibility with me. I didn't do this in the beginning, but I do do it now. Why? Because it makes sense! It makes as much sense for a new player, than for a 'veteran' player, to have an option to save your life. Hey, we're not in Walt Disney Themepark here; This is the Underdark!

Coldburn Chaosprism, what you say about some things is kind of nonsense, really.

The biggest problem is definitely unintentional highbie vs. lowbie PvP, as mentioned many times by now. I'd just like to add in that in reality, it's not quite that black and white as some of you are making it seem that "without CR we won't be able to tell if someone is low level". That's nonsense -- I can tell most of the new PCs just by looking at what they're wearing, how they move about, how they interact with people. I'm sure you others can do that too.

Those new players who would get upset by being being beaten by a high level character are quite easy to recognize. They are (generally speaking) the players who are new to roleplaying altogether. Those low level characters who are played by experienced roleplayers aren't so easy to spot, yes, but that is irrelevant here because they also tend to complain less in impossible PvP situations, as long as it's all In Character. So the bottom line is that the factor making some low level characters difficult to recognize already cancels out the so-called problem involved in having no CRs.

Unintentional high level vs low level PvP is better than intentional high level vs low level PvP. We were getting the latter, now we are hoping the former isn't as bad.

I originally didn't like the change but after playing it for a bit with a new character or two am finding that it is a lot more engaging - I am having people come up to talk to the new characers who never would have before and it is giving a chance ot go on some missions they never would have before.

Sure the missions are dangerous but it is up to me to roleplay out finding what the missions are about before accepting - or if it is too hard withdrawing form the group and saying I'm out of there.

With the PvP use a couple of tells between the conflicting members and sort out OOC the fairness and then translate that IC.

The only thing that is a little annoying is that the Disease flag no longer shows - most people who are diseased will show symptoms especially after damage has been applied.

Overall from a RP perspective the change is great adn we should keep it - from a "Just want to get in and Quest" perspective it makes a little more annoying but the RP benefits far outweigh the negatives.

Cheers

I agree with Nestek. At first it seemed really annoying, but it made me realise how much I was relying on the info in the exams.

It makes the RP much more interesting now, I feel. I've come over the fence and have to agree that it works pretty well.

It would be nice to be able to see if someone's diseased or poisoned, etc though. My main character habitually cured anyone she found in this condition, but that's a lot harder now, if not impossible.

Poison and disease should be RP'ed... and this change emphasises it.

Especially if somebody wants to get some benevolent healing.

Howland One of my projects that I keep putting off is putting the quest requirements in the description of quest giving NPCs -- however, it's sort of tedious and I keep forgetting to do it.

The current situation is something of an experiment, but I'm inclined to say we should keep it.

The biggest issue for me is indeed I don't want people randomly targeting super low level PCs, and with the CR gone there's no easy way to determine that.

Not sure how many times I need to say it, but CR simply is not even remotely accurate in gauging the strength of NPCs. However, we will be looking to communicate more about what you see from observing a NPC in their descriptions.

Actually it is even EASIER to maliciously target low levels now and get away with it.

Check the player list on logging in.

A potential jackass can kill low levels and has an easier time explaining it, he can claim he didnt know.

There is the potential for that, yes. It would be hard to prove otherwise as well. If something like this happened as a one off, you could probably excuse the player. More than once, I'd hope the DM's started taking a special interest in that character/player.

On a related side note, my new character had a real opportunity last night to kill and rob a party member that had fallen and was bleeding out in the Jane quest. The only other witness was someone who would have backed her up. The only thing that stopped her was that the target in question was obviously 2nd level (which I could deduce from the party display on the screen). He was very lucky... 8)

I think that removing the "CR" part is GREAT. But removing buffs/debuffs has recently shown to be very very very annoying.

As many of you know, I play a physician. I used to be able to diagnose poisons and diseases easily, but ever since I woke up the other day, I can't hardly tell! I can't even tell if the person is feeling weak, feeling tired, feeling befuddled.

At first glance, you might think "Well gosh darnit, why don't they just TELL you IC, or OOC, or whatever." That's a fair judgement. But it seems rather rediculous for a patient to know what's wrong with him beyond what a doctor does, and as opposed to RL diseases, there's not nearly the kind of rush to reach a diagnosis.

Lastly, as a much weaker argument, spellcasters won't know when their own spells wear off of allies. Wizards and sorcerors are supposed to be attuned to that sort of thing, especially their own spells, aren't they?

Sounds like what you actually need is some sort of medical gear, that could be used on somebody (in conjunction with a Heal check) to determine what sort of ailment they are suffering from.

Idea! I could add some sort of medical gear, that could... etc. :)

Would that work?

EDIT: Or, after some consideration, maybe a "/o c diagnose <player name>" command?

For those that played Baldur's Gate I, remember when you just escaped from Candlekeep, and set off to the Friendly Arm Inn. On your way, you would encounter the NPC called 'Old Man'. I acted real bitchy on him, for wasting my time, and sent him on his way.

Even in BG1 I was playing badasses, so I did the same, Coldburn. Simply classic.

On a more serious note, I think its a great example for an argument against showing CRs. I'm all for the new patch's effect. Outward appearances can be deceiving.

Arkov I think the idea of the /o c diagnosis command is a great idea - especially based against the Heal skill - very useful for specialist healers.

If you could work it against a sliding scale of difficulty that would be even better an example of which could be

15 - Detect Disease / Poison 20 - Detect effects of disease / poison 30 - Identify exact disease / poison used.

Cheers

Arkov Sounds like what you actually need is some sort of medical gear, that could be used on somebody (in conjunction with a Heal check) to determine what sort of ailment they are suffering from.

Idea! I could add some sort of medical gear, that could... etc. :)

Would that work?

EDIT: Or, after some consideration, maybe a "/o c diagnose <player name>" command?

This is a great idea! Tie it to the characters Heal skill, and my only issue this change is gone. And you don't have to create an item that we then have to carry around.

Good solution!

Is there a way to make it so that someone who spots a stealthed PC or sees an invisible PC through See Invisibility / True Seeing could know what they're seeing?

At least in the case of hiding PCs, you'd obviously know that they're hiding. Now you don't, which is infinitely stupid. See Invis is more debatable -- do you "know" that they're invisible if you see them by magical means? Maybe not.

Maybe you could also put in a

"/o c spellcheck <player name>"

so mages can use their Spellcraft skill to recognise spells on people. Don't know if that's stupid or not, just an idea :)

I think its a great idea. Realistic, also, I'd say.

Regarding using Spellcraft to identify spells,

d20 SRD Spellcraft DC: Task

15 + spell level: When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required. ... 20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

I may have more to add on this later; still pondering it.

If you add diagnose to the game, personally, I'd remove "effect disease" and "effect poison" from the disease and poison icons, and re-script them so that you dont actually "know" you're poisoned, or diseased.

Well, okay maybe you may know you're poisoned, but disease would be Alot better if each player didn't know they had it from the word go, and diagnosing would be much better :)

it always irks me that disease is "oh no i'm diseased " *uses item* "its gone, i'm suddenly immediately better" rather than "I feel awful, I don't know what's up with me, but I suppose we can push on anyway"

just my take.

Building on that, I'd like to see a way that someone doesn't know he's Cursed, Diseased, Poisoned or drained in any other way.

except for the stat decrease, yeah it would be nice to see the "identifiers" removed. Maybe not poison, although I can't speak from experience, if someone has ever been poisoned, do they actually Feel it instantly? My guess is yes, unlike the others.

Poisoning and diseasing usually starts to feel rather quickly. But yeah, disease could be removed, but poison would be nice to see.

Anthee, reguarding invis pcs seen through a seeing spell, they glow White. So you Know they're invisible. I had that put in at the start. It rocks.

You could make the characters throw out "coughs" and "splutters" when they're diseased depending on the disease.

You could even force emotes to happen to a player on certain conditions, so if a player sees a player with "red hazy eyes" that's sneezing they could see right away they have the 'red aches' or whatever.

I dont think the rolls should be so high anyway. even somebody with 1 in heal skill is going to be able to tell that somebody who's bleeding from the eyes and is coughing is diseased even if they dont know what it is.

I'm ok whichever way it goes just as long as information is obtainable by some other means. (that makes sense)

Dont worry about coldburn bindragon , he's my personal troll :D ... the fact that he responds that way means that he at least reads it, he's often one of the few people that comments at all even if he disagrees with what I have to say 99% of the time, I dont mind, he's not abusing me for my opinions so I have no desire to do the same.

chaosprism

Dont worry about coldburn bindragon , he's my personal troll :D ... the fact that he responds that way means that he at least reads it, he's often one of the few people that comments at all even if he disagrees with what I have to say 99% of the time, I dont mind, he's not abusing me for my opinions so I have no desire to do the same.

As commented somewhere above, I think automated *coughs* and *splutters* may lead to some lag and a flooding of excess text comments that may get annoying when you are trying to sort out conversations. Maybe a *cough* only when another PC looks at your character description (simulating a condition check)?

chaosprism Dont worry about coldburn bindragon , he's my personal troll :D ... the fact that he responds that way means that he at least reads it, he's often one of the few people that comments at all even if he disagrees with what I have to say 99% of the time, I dont mind, he's not abusing me for my opinions so I have no desire to do the same.

I claim the above comment...my login got dropped for some reason.

Hey somebody who KNOWS the real meaning of wally :)

I dont see what is wrong with people knowing when they are diseased or poisoned... a tickle in the throat, the numbing tingle on a wound...

I realize that there are more subtle and insidious diseases and poisons out there, but this is a fantasy game, and there are lots of things that don't work quite how they should.

I do not mind the CR being taken off. But I do agree that I should somehow be able to tell if people are poisoned or diseased. It just happened the other day that a few people had poison in their drinks. I wanted to perdge the poison from them but because there was so many people in the room I as a player could not tell which ones were the poisoned ones, but Menelanna should have been able to tell.(she saw them drink it after all) So anyway I can check people to see if they have some form of ailment would be nice so I can go back to being a cheerfull selfless little healer. :D

Did'nt YOU as a player see them drink them too? You should take anote of these things if your memory is'nt as good as your characters :)

Also, it encourages people to go *turns a sickly shade of green*, *sways on their feet*, or *PUKES ON THENAGA* to demonstrate their illness. All of which are things we like seeing.

-Cross

When else are you ever going to have an opportunity to use the word "pustulates"?

Every time I go rat hunting!

Naga Did'nt YOU as a player see them drink them too? You should take anote of these things if your memory is'nt as good as your characters :)

I DID. But with around 18 people running around the room with major lag I sorta lost track and could not note them. Come on we blonds can only do so much at a time! :D

Nuclear Catastrophe When else are you ever going to have an opportunity to use the word "pustulates"?

I use that a lot with Mandarin.