From my experience, due to the lack of supporting items which are either very costly or rarely found, and a dependence on potions, monks can be a bit more difficult to play than other classes. A greater drop rate of monk supporting items, perhaps even monk specific items would greatly help the class. Possibly even a slight change to the class.

Obviously, monks are not supposed to be on par with fighters, but unlike the other medium BAB progression classes, they do not really have anything to make them more effective or group oriented. Even barbarians, a full BAB progression class, received modification to make their class more effective.

Clerics have buffs that put them on par with a fighter in terms of AB, AC, and Damage while still having self healing abilities. Druids also have buffs, and an animal companion, some of which can be very effective in combat.

Rogues have several skills which are quite helpful to have on quests, such as search, open lock and disable trap, some of which are very helpful on higher level quests.

Bards have use magic device which allows them to use most magic items if their skill is enough, in addition to having bard song, and items to further increase their power.

Barbarians who receive the same BAB progression as fighters can receive a massive build to both AB and damage with a specially modifier rage.

There may be drops for monks but they are incredibly rare. There needs to be purchasable- items. Just as a fighter can buy Full Plate and a Tower Shield Or a mage can buy more spells And not 2k gold for a measly 2 damage. No monk until what... 8, does equal damage than a fighter with a longsword, or a rogue or cleric.

Monks should not have AB equal to full BAB classes as they are not fighters, but they still do less damage than even the medium BAB class. . Their AB is certainly an issue, as they have very few means of increasing their damage without depending on buffs. Rogues have Low AB, but can deal MASSIVE damage. Fighters have high AB but can do nothing within their class means to improve it Clerics and druids both have lower AB but have many means to improve it. In fact druids were flat out GIVEN a bonus to their AB in the wild to nearly put them on par with fighters. An increase in AB would offset the need for increased damage, as monks would hit more, and therefore do more damage.

Every medium BAB progression class except the monk has the ability to use the wands either through Use Magic Device or due to being an arcane casting class (bards) or a divine casting class (clerics and druids) . Monks can only use potions. They have no self buffing ability. They may receive stunning fist, but it is not as effective due to a low AB. The same goes for improved knockdown, which is also less effective due to the low AB.

One of the ways in which the monk AB could be altered is to receive their wisdom score as an AB bonus. That would give the average monk a +2-3 to AB. Scales nicely with now very expensive potions. Formerly, cheap but... due to crafter whining Wise Man's Brew got the kick in the nuts

Monks already received a slight buff when it became possible to cast magic weapon on gloves, but that does not over shine the benefits the other classes have, and those which the monk lacks.

There are a wide variety of ranger, druid and barbarian only items which are not as difficult to find and get as monk items. More common drops of items that benefit monks would also be helpful. For example, 2/use magic weapon gauntlets which are more common to drop. I have not seen any such items on higher level quests. Perhaps more items drops that monks can actually us, and hope to find without being incredibly lucky, that cast mage armour, or other spells which help monks. Monk only consumables similar to bard items would also help greatly.

Monk only consumables would be a perfect solution I think. Bards, for example, can use loads of bard only healing items despite the fact they are capable of using other more accessible healing items that can be bought from others such as wands.

One item that always stuck out to me was the level ten endurance casting pan pipe with four charges. Not only does this item specifically plays towards the bard's weakness of low HP, but it can also supplement their buffing capabilities.

There are also lots of possible item themes as well. Like, little focusing stones that a monk could use to channel their ki to heal them or give them stat buffs in dexterity, strength, or endurance.

Little zen-ish poems written on scrolls or stone tablets could provide bonuses to wisdom or provide low level magical spell effects like mage armour, elemental resistence, entropic shield, and so on.

And last but not least, strange and foreign tea that only a monk who's skilled control of their body could stomach. These would have curative properties similar to restoration, remove disease/poison.

We might sprinkle a few more monk-only ambient loot around, but I don't buy the argument that monks suffer from damage or AB that is too low by merely comparing them with full BAB progression classes and conveniently forgetting that monks have a host of unique abilities, lots of extra feats and untouchable AC should they wish to attain it.

Sorry!

MadCaddies We might sprinkle a few more monk-only ambient loot around, but I don't buy the argument that monks suffer from damage or AB that is too low by merely comparing them with full BAB progression classes and conveniently forgetting that monks have a host of unique abilities, lots of extra feats and untouchable AC should they wish to attain it.

Sorry!

Most of their unique abilities require them to be able to hit, however. Compare them to any class with the -same- AB progression. Namely Priests and Druids. Both get self cast buffs to improve their AB and druids even receive an extra bonus in the wild. Why? Because they needed help hitting.

Look at it from this perspective: What role are Monks supposed to be filling?

Scouts? Rogues and Rangers do it better, not that there is ever any need for one since deadly traps in quests are nearly nonexistant and flagged with so many warning signs that they make you laugh.

Damage? Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, Clerics, Druids, and Bards all do it better with -base- class abilities. Further more, any one of these classes can go out and buy themselves a nice big two hander. Monks must wait for levels before their base damage increases. In fact they have to wait until level 8 to do 1d10 damage. This is nearing the top of the level range and further than most of the server gets.

Tanks? Clearly not. Yes their AC -can- be insane... if they have a pocket buff bot. Although, some of those base abilities have been dramatically altered.

Buffs? Nope. Nothing to offer to a party in this arena.

Other utility? They can spam KD and Stunning Fists. Both of which are likely going to miss repeatedly unless that monk has spent a fortune on potions or has a mage in their pocket.

The class seems to be balanced around the fact that they can buff up to extreme levels with potions. Something any damage class can do... and will ultimately do more damage/be more survivable.

Ultimately what would a minor AB bonus do to server balance? Between 2-3 AB if it were a bonus based on wisdom and 1-3 more after an Owls Wisdom spell. You could even cap it based on levels if you want, just like you did for Barbarian Rage.

Ultimately, I think the question comes down to this, however. Why did the monk spend most of their life dedicated purely to honing their body into a weapon... if they end up being less capable in combat than your average fighter.

Really, when it comes to their bonus feats... Combat abilities are hurt severely by their lack of AB, while they gain some pretty decent magical protections.

Is that to suggest that monks are really only suited to killing mages? That hardly seems true to the flavor of the class. They are supposed to be masters of their body and fierce opponents in combat as a result.

How afraid would you be of a martial artist if you knew they were going to miss you with every swing?

It's my view that a true master of their body and mind would be able to use their insight to gain an understanding of their opponents movements and both move away from perceived incoming attacks AND move in place to strike at weak points in armor, often moving to strike before their opponent even realizes that they've created an opening in their defenses. This is what true martial artists do. They read their opponent like a book and adjust their tactics. Let monks have a tiny AB bonus to represent this.

I like the proposed item ideas, and will likely add them. However, the monk class can be very powerful in the hands of some, and furthermore is one of the classes that I'm not interested in seeing being easy to play, or even really common.

We want every class to have its niche and be powerful in the right hands, but classes such as fighter, barbarian, bard, rogue, etc. should be more common in EfU than other classes, in my opinion.

I certainly would strenuously argue against the idea that monks are underpowered, though.

What role should monks play?

They're anti-mage killing machines, FFS. I'm surprised that thus far no one has commented on how monks receive the best save progression out of any class, ever. Sure, it might sound lame, who wants to be able to dodge a fireball when the platemonkey with the bastard sword deals fifteen damage a hit? The same person who wants to be able to resist holding/blinding and ref-based spells from mages, while sneaking up on them, KD'ing and laying down a three-punch-a-round 5-10 dmg/hit massacre on a target with piss-poor armor-class.

Too often I find people only take into account the offensive abilities of their class when discussing possible changes, and forget the defensive superiority of, for example, monks.

I do truly see little eqiupment dropped other than the monks staff and the occasional set of gloves of varying type dropped from time to time. As a player who has a long standing monk character, I can say that most stuff is not for a monk.

There is a pair of quests that I can think of that have NPC monsters that, depending on the party, scale up to some pretty bad-ass monk-type monsters. Hell, one of them even has rooms that look like mini-monasteries in it. Why not have the monk loot there? Other quests have theme'd loot. Undead fighting stuff during undead-type quests, etc, why not do the same?

As far as the role of the monk, yes, they are mage killers. At level 8, monks can move in stealth nearly as fast as most characters can run and have Imp KD. Their saves are even across all levels (unless you short the save-based ability stats). If you are human, you could use the bonus feat to even take Luck of Heroes to go higher.

Monks also have the ability to save other characters. If a monster is chasing a 'near death' party member, the monk has the speed and (likely) the tumble score to sprint up from the rear, pass both the monster and the dying character and heal the character, all while avoiding the AoO from the monster because of tumble and his high wisdom score means he can likely even use herbs in combat effectively.

High dex scores mean better Hide/MS skills so they can stealth in and retrieve dead bodies or spy on poor Spot/Listen characters.

Monks are quite universal like rogues, but with saves of both the rogue and the paladin, and a bit of combat prowess of the fighter.

They're a fun class to play! Let there be more wisdom based loot for them!

few people would have lived their lives entirely as a monk IMO (life changing events turning a rogue into a monk?) Cross classing into other classes with monk can potentially turn them into some of the most powerful characters on the server.

I remember the time I downed a potion of premonition (a fighter in full plate, tower shield and bastard) during a fight against a monk and got my ass kicked all over the show. Just learn how to use the class and then be happy in the knowledge you can play a really difficult class well.

I think the same arguments for being slightly useless can be used for Bards.

They can't scout as well as others, can't fight/tank as well as others, can't use spells as well as others.

Yet, if you focus on one aspect you can sometimes be more deadly than any of the other classes.

That said, Monks should be a rare class. IMO I'm far more scared of a level 9 fully buffed Monk assassin than I would be most other classes. In almost all cases it isn't the character without buffs thats a threat, it's the character who has the most supplies and best potions to use who'll win.

So this comparison of Monks to Fighters/Barbarians/Etc is kind of silly, mostly when it comes to comparing their fighting prowess. No one ever fights/quests without buffs. If they do, they deserve to die. And if we're now comparing a fully buffed Monk to a fully buffed warrior then I'd say they're very much nearly on par. Atleast well enough for a Monk to utilise all his sweet fighting abilities and make up for any short comings he may have to a Fighter.

Ultimately this argument boils down, "Well, his shit smells better, but only if I eat broccoli, or if he eats pineapples."

Which basically says; It's all game mechanics, preparation and supplies.

That said, Monks could use some more ambient/static loot with very minor buffs.

The primary attack bonus for the monk is 3/4 of the fighter, but their secondary attack is equal or better. If Wisdom was added to AB on top of dexterity or strength, the first attack would be equal for most, and the second much higher, so they'd actually have much better AB than fighter classes.

Monk damage is terrible, but there are a few gloves that add to it and are quest drops.

As someone currently playing a monk I will add my two cents.

Mechanics: From a mechanics stand point monks are very much like mages. They are very weak at lower levels and very powerful at higher levels (though monks do take a bit longer to reach uberness than mages). It balances itself out that way. Monk usefulness begins around level 7 and monk uberness begins around level 9 to level 11. Now, we play on a server with a soft cap around level 9 to 10. I believe the DMs idea to add some monk gear will balance things out nicely without changing base class abilities.

RP: Monks are one of the most fun classes to play. The possobilities in your rp is far greater than most other classes (in my opinion of course).

Overall: They are a tough class to play but an awsome class to play. Go into making a monk with your eyes open and enjoy.

Kaelle The primary attack bonus for the monk is 3/4 of the fighter, but their secondary attack is equal or better. If Wisdom was added to AB on top of dexterity or strength, the first attack would be equal for most, and the second much higher, so they'd actually have much better AB than fighter classes.

Monk damage is terrible, but there are a few gloves that add to it and are quest drops.

What do you mean their secondary attack is equal or better? They have the same rules regarding a second attack as everyone else. -5 AB. If you're referring to Flurry of Blows? That drops their AB by 2 on ALL attacks, including the extra one. Which makes it even -worse-. Granted, it -will- result in a guaranteed increase in damage, but when the character can barely hit in the first place.... that base damage increase is marginal at best.

It's -3 ab imo per attack.

RP: Monks are one of the most fun classes to play. The possobilities in your rp is far greater than most other classes (in my opinion of course).

Cannot agree with this. While monks are very fun to RP, yes, their innate overspecialization and built in, almost mandatory character traits, severely limit the variety of monks. Fighters, Rogues, and Wizards are the only real classes that can be -anything- they want to be, from an RP perspective. A monk, however, is pigeon-holed into a life of extreme structure and monastic living. You will never see a fat greedy merchant monk. It doesn't make sense unless they gave up their monk ways. They strive for perfection of mind and body, to give in to the vices of gluttony and greed would be contrary to this.

Monks can be many things, yes, but they are far from the most versatile in RP situations.

Also, if straight up mechanics changes are not on the menu, then please please please provide monks with some decent gear drops tailored specifically towards them. Just like Druids and Barbarians have access to fun, class only gear, monks should as well. Perhaps this will help tip the balance back in favor of monks being useful on quests during their truly tender and weak early level range. A level range that, as has been said here and elsewhere, encompasses the majority of the server's level range and almost the entirety of the average player's level range.

I would just like to bring up another point, assuming it hasn't been mentioned before...

Monks and loot, most of the time, do not mix. Monks of most orders are taught that too many possessions, as well as greed as a whole, is bad. Thus why they typically don't own all too much! (No armor or weapon, for the tip of the iceberg). A monk might accept a reward/take an item they found, if they have a use for it, or it will help them perfect themselves and further harness their Ki. However, you won't usually see a monk hefting up a bastard sword and saying "yeah, I'll sell this when we get back to town".

In second edition, paladins had something similar with rewards. I'm not sure if that has progressed into third or not.

I've never played a monk, so I've no experience in these comments, but I wager that the extra challenge in the monk class would just add to the appeal of playing them. Fighters can be easy after a while!

Diagnosis However, you won't usually see a monk hefting up a bastard sword and saying "yeah, I'll sell this when we get back to town".

You will if that monk needs food or other supplies. People so very often mistake living a simple life with a 'starve to death unless you find some food in the woods' life. I don't want to get biblical here, but it almost seems fitting.

There is a story of a fisherman who's boat sprung a leak. He was sinking rapidly and prayed to God for help. Three boats came by one after another and offered him safety. Three times he refused saying that God would save him. When he finally died and found himself in heaven, he asked God why he didn't save him. God replied simply that he sent three ships to him and he ignored them.

If a monk is starving, or knows someone could use the weapon/money from selling it, they would be stupid to leave it behind. No, instead they are going to pick it up as a clear gift from their god, haul it back to town, and sell it. They'll then use the gold for whatever they feel is needed... ie feeding themselves or helping their local monastary... Feeding the poor or whatever!

And owning a full set of clothes, magically enchanted or not, is not exactly hoarding worldly possessions! If this is what they need in order to fight the foes the face, then that is simply a fact of life! No monk that I know of is sworn to a vow of Poverty.

There are several orders which do not endorse the following of a god, Oona, the Long Death among them. Although some monks are highly devout, not all are.

As for feeding the poor and such, sure. My statement was made with the assumption that this monk would be keeping the money earned for himself.

The monk needing food and other supplies now! Adventuring is a living, yes. An extremely dangerous one, but it's still a living. Now, a meal might cost... Three coin? Okay. He would be paid at least one hundred for the quest. There isn't a need to loot everything he's killed.

Mechanically, monks are probably the hardest core class to keep alive in EfU.

Yet, once you figure that out. Mechanically, monks are the most disgustingly powerful class in EfU.

Yeah. Expensive to maintain, but ludicrously powerful with the right potions as things stand in EFU.

Diagnosis

The monk needing food and other supplies now! Adventuring is a living, yes. An extremely dangerous one, but it's still a living. Now, a meal might cost... Three coin? Okay. He would be paid at least one hundred for the quest. There isn't a need to loot everything he's killed.

Meal. Supplies. Whatever. Stuff costs money.

If a monk is out there trying to do good, or evil, or whatever through adventuring... They need gold. Monks in general actually need a -lot- of gold to afford all the various potions they need.

So yes, looting things now and then to sell to increase the payout from a quest is quite necessary. A monk cannot do his job without the consumables.

Rat knuckles (Lower bazaar), usable by fighters and rogues...

Perhaps adding monk to the list of classes able to use them would be a good idea.