Some charisma questions...

I'm having a hard time playing my low CHA character. He has a pretty good INT and WIS, so he's no dummy. Seems easier to play low INT than low CHA.

Notes have been popping up in the CHAR Journals which are helpful. Nice touch btw...but now I'm really confused.

What is a low CHA do and how do you play it? IMO, someone with blatantly putrid BO or bad breath is usually avoided which to me seems like low CHA. But the tips say that those things don't constitute a low CHA.

Being rude, butting in conversations, leaving without a word are also social no-no's in the Real World and people that do that too often are usually considered annoying which I perceive as having a low CHA.

I'm also playing my character like a giant mope-ass if he gets to zero hp and has to be healed. As a cleric of battle, this is tantamount to failure to him....(OOC i don't really care, as long as somone heals him up :lol: )

...and isn't it perceived as weak personal strength of character if someone melts all over the place when faced with hardship? Don't you avoid the whiny person at work who starts the conversation like, "I had the worst weekend, my (insert wife/husband/other) did bla-bla-bla, bla-bla-bla.....and then I have to do this......(poor me) wah-wah-wah.

Those people drive me nuts and I actually arrange my schedule to avoid them. So it's hard to play my character that way, which is what I perceive as low personal character...

Anyway - suggestions on how to play a low CHA without my character having to be driven out of town like a leper? And maybe if you have a low CHA, that is always a possible consequence if you RP right?

And might a dwarf's CHA appear different to a human than a dwarf? Since dwarves get a minus to CHA, then I assume that there are some dwarvish traits that are universally annoying like saying "Ye, and oi" a lot? :?

And is it bad RP to take a leadership role in a faction if you have a low CHA? Does low CHA pretty much preclude being a good leader? IOW, can a good leader have other parts of their CHA that are bad and balance out the leadership capability?

I was a newb and a bit of a powergamer when I started - because I didn't know any better having only played the OC solo and this was my first MP experience. I knew nerfing CHA would hurt my characer's ability to Turn, and the length of his domain power.

Does the low CHA preclude you from being certain activities or a certain type of character if you RP correctly?

Lots of thoughs - appreciate any feedback.

Just based on sheer logic, I always think of a person that has a lot of 'force of personality' as a sales man. They're job is to inform, educate, persuade and, ultimately, convince you of what 'needs' to be done.

We all know people with this type of personality. They're open, generally happy, good at conversation, respectfully downplays their own successes in light of others' lesser sucesses, and generally seem to have their thumb on the pulse of the crowd or group, and can tell a tale just decent enough to hold someones attention, though they are no actor in terms of performing.

People tend to follow those who they seem most easily able to relate to. If I had to choose a leader to follow, I would not choose the anti-social hermit, despite his intellectual brilliance, because I would feel his goals are catered towards his desire to want to be alone, not for the greater good of a larger society. Instead I would choose someone who took, or I thought took, a genuine interest in me and was friendly, social and had just the right amount of sage wisdom.

A low charisma character, to me, would also include more subtle things such as the words they choose in conversation, versus more obvious things such as hygene. Say for example, my low CHA character meets someone with a scar that has blinded them in one eye. Here are some subtle differences in possible responses:

High Charisma:. Please, don't get me wrong, I think that the mark is very endearing, but it does make me curious as to how you earned it? Low Charisma: Wow that's a heckuva scar ya got there. Where'd you get it from? Can I touch it? Evil: I bet you deserved that scar. Tell me how you got it.

All three situations allow the character to acknowledge the scar and ask how the person got it, but it's how they went about it that made the difference.

The first one was sensitive to the fact that the scarred person probably might not want to talk about it and thus sugar coated his question respectfully.

The second one, was just blunt, childlike behavior. Not meant to be offensive or mean, but still not exactly the best way to approach someone who's disfigured.

The third one I tossed in there to show a difference between being low charisma (socially out of tune) and being outright mean. I notice a lot of people confuse these two. Low CHA means you unintentially insult someone but are of a good heart, while being evil (regarless of charisma level) is all about tearing the other person down any way you can.

So to answer your question, I would have to say that, no, a low CHA can't lead a team. Or if they tried, someone else in the group would always outshine that person as far as leadership goes. Also they would be less likely to convince others of changing their mind since either their personal appearance or social approach to such interactions would give the other party no incentive to change.

Personal magentism and good looks is the CHA thing. So maybe you char has a cleft lip, or a deformity of some kind, or maybe really hairy and smelly.

just some thoughts.

http://www.uglypeople.com

land of the 6-8 cha people

Charisma is such a damn composite stat.. It mainly governs your personality, low charisma would be a bit self-conscious, so this makes you a bad leader. Also, how others would perceive you, especially first impression, would be mainly governed by the charisma stat. Again, it can mean such a lot.. If you're rude this could mean either, I think, since you are still good at bossing people around. I am just personally a bit hesitant to play it as appearance since that has not so much to do with what charisma actually means. I believe no one can give you actual rules and guidelines on how to play it, and those who still do would most likely be ignored by me. Just keep in mind that low charisma means your character isn't a real pleasant fellow for whatever reasons. Others are likely to neglect your advice/orders, and might even shun you. If that is because you just smell, or because you are plain "wierd", is up to you mostly.. It's a composite stat as I said so you might want to have a little bit of everything though..

Charisma has a lot to do with not only how others perceive you, but also how you perceive yourself. This doesn't mean you have to act in character any certain way. Rather you should think out how this trait relates to your character. I find using other aspects of his/her personality to shape your persona in this regard to be most useful. For example-

Craddock is smarter and wiser than the average bear and knows it, his low cha perhaps would make him think/act/speak as if he were better than others. (cocky, overconfident)

Craddock knows that he's gifted in some ways, but something inside him, perhaps past experiences, make him underestimate himself, or makes him think that he'll let others down who rely upon him. (depressed, mopey with a B.A.)

This in no way means that you can't be a leader, as Craddock is intelligent and wise. He could be the mean boss with impossibly high standards that cuts people down without sparing anyones feelings when others make mistakes. It's still quite possible for this person to be a driven and talented leader who is known as someone who gets the job done (without explaining why something has to be done THIS WAY and yelling at his underlings for asking questions or not snapping to). The leader in this situation may even like their subordinates but be unable to express it well. (talented engineer with no social skills that gets promoted to a management position)

These examples do get on other peoples nerves, so don't expect everyone to love you, or want you to lead them. Craddock may or may not think well of himself and may or may not show it to others-thats also up to you.

Just think about who you want Craddock to be, and try to work in a few of these social bugs which you find appropriate and you should be fine. Make sure that whatever you decide that you still enjoy playing Craddock, as your fun is the most important part.

Smelly people can really be quite likeable. Its if they're smelly AND ill tempered that gets on other peoples nerves. Dwarves are more often smelly and ill tempered as a culture, so if your dwarf is the typical Manley Dwarf this shouldn't rub dwarves the wrong way as much as it does other races. If he enjoyed long walks on the beach and tries to talk to other Manley Dwarves about his feelings-AND doesn't properly maintain his beard- you'll probably get odd looks from dwarves as often as the other races.

Hope that helps and isn't too long winded. Or completely wrong for that matter as I've had difficulty rp'ing cha as well.

Charisma is leadership and force of personality NOT good looks. You can put it to good looks if you like. But there are many good looking people out in theworld that everybody HATES because they are'nt charasmatic. A super model who's a bitch to everybody around her, or an uneducated bimbo always saying the wrong things although good looking I consider to have LOW CHA.

I find it hard to play low charisma villians (since I like to be a leader and any cha below 12 don't cut leadership for my characters at leas.)

I'm playing one right now. Nobody really likes him socially because he's an asshole and has as much charisma is a shit covered plank with a rusty nail sticking out of it. Cha is an interpersonal skill IMHO.

You can't be an uber leader of doom and have8 cha and say "oh its because I'm ugly" because last I remember half orcs can have up to 16 cha at start up and they still ugly bastards regardless.

First of all, and this has bothered me for quite some time: CHARISMA IS NOT YOUR APPEARANCE!! You can have a dead-sexy character, but with a charisma of 6.

Charisma is, as others pointed out, force of personality. The way you manage to appear to other people. It really is hard to explain Charisma as a definition, but examples will show it well enough:

<ManWith6Charisma> "Yo Queen Elisabeth II, slammin' party. How's the sexlife? Not too good, huh? Wasn't that tardy husband of yours dead, anyhow? [He turns to the waiter] Yeah, get me a couple of glasses of wine, snippety-snap. [He turns his attention back to the queen] Jesus, is it hot in here or fucking what? Can hardly believe people are actually freezing out there, you lot hogging all the heat? Fucking tardy. Oh, and that dress of yours? I'd kill the oaf who designed it. So 2001."

This obviously depicts a person with low Charisma. He does not know how to interact with others, he does not know what is appropriate to say.

On the other hand, people with a high Charisma DO know what to say, and DO know what's appropriate to say. However, they do not necessarily have to act in such a manner.

Charisma is a measure of inner strength, and takes different definitions depending on how you're looking at things. I honestly think Charisma should be looked at differently for people playing sorcerers and bards, since it's technically no longer as relevant to their social skills as it is to their powers.

'Low' charisma characters that are not sorcerers or bards could be seen to be any of the following :

A mindless henchman - looks and force of personality are irrelevant, they do what they are told by a more dominant personality.

A brutal, uncouth, unpleasant warrior - makes no friends, simply kills for his own personal gains (even if they are technically 'good', they are still unpleasant to be around.)

A weak willed human being, unable to empathise with the world around them - think a child in a mans body, frightened, unable to impose themself.

A selfish dwarf - whether good spirited or evil, in the end, they are not likely to care as much for other people as themselves, and certainly not able to lead anyone for any length of time.

Just some random examples.

Charisma is one of the most difficult stats to play.

The way I interperet it is similiar to many others. I generally measure it as Confidence, a Force of Presence, Social Awareness, Etc.

It really should be up to your discretion as to how high or low Charisma is while taking all those into account. For example, if I think my character should be high on all three or more of those, than his Charisma would like by 15+. If he's just confident, maybe 12.

For example, I'm playing a Gold Dwarf now and Gold Dwarves are naturally haughty/arrogant people. His Charisma is only 10, which is still 2 points higher than the average Dwarf. He looks down upon most people who are not Gold Dwarves, but he isn't the sort to take command as leadership is either too stressing/scary for him. His average Charisma also leads him to be rather insulting to other races through his indifference and lack of empathy at times.

You can still play a 6-8 CHA Character who tries to be likeable, but chances are his efforts are so misled that he'd fail everytime. If he sought to be a leader, that's fine, but it should be understood that he'd simply lack the confidence, social awareness, or force of personality to really inspire people. That's not to say a low CHA character -can't- lead, he just likely wouldn't be the Figurehead inspiring the masses. Maybe more like the leppar in the background whispering commands to a creepy hair doll and the figurehead he's using.

One thing to keep in mind is that investment into certain skills (intimidate, persuade, bluff) can make up for an otherwise low charisma in those particular areas. A six charisma dwarf or half-orc can still be intimidating, a good liar, or persuasive if they've invested in the skills. These different skills certainly are used by leaders. A low charisma, high intimidate barbarian that orders around his goons would seem fine to me, however the goons would likely be motivated mostly by fear rather than actually being inspired by loyalty to the leader.

A six charisma character can expect to usually receive a very negative reaction from any NPC I possess. Charisma is one of many factors that determine how the NPC will initially react (as an example, charisma may come into play with a NPC trying to determine the sentence for a trial).

The most important thing I am interested in with PCs is the quality of characterization, which does go both ways -- a flatly-played PC with totally social-based skills and stats isn't necessarily any more interesting to me as a character than a min-maxed dwarf or half-orc if the dwarf/half-orc is being proactive, lively, and entertaining.

Regardless of the stats you've selected, there is room to play a proactive and interesting character.

However, it is certainly important to fairly represent your character's stats -- it is a matter of fairness to other players.

Some of these traits are (in my mind) good ways to role-play negative charisma:

Extreme discomfort with leadership positions, refusing to accept responsibility for being a leader.

Extremely poor leadership abilities if pressed into the role.

Being nervous around large groups, being very shy.

Inspiring feelings of disgust or revulsion in other people

Constantly embarassing yourself in your interactions with others.

Having a weak or awkward personality.

And (yes) poor physical appearance, poor hygeine. I personally do not like it when this is the sole thing a low charisma PC focuses on. However, it can be enjoyable thing to RP -- you can constantly be picking lice out of your beard, emoting gum-tenderizing stenches, having your PC pick at his scars or warts, etc.

So would a Dwarf with 6 charisma also be disgusting to other dwarvs or would they be able to lead other Dwarfs but not be so good at leading slims and other more Charismatic people, i thaught this may be the case as thay would all be just as annoying as each other, would Low charisma people accept low charisma leaders?

I'd say if your cha is 6 (lowest possible) then they'd have a "why should I listen to you" feeling unless you had high persuade, intimidate, bluf or an appropriete skill for the action you are attempting.

CHA 6 is unfit for leadership, and meaningful relationships on any level, really, regardless of race.

Pinefish So would a Dwarf with 6 charisma also be disgusting to other dwarvs

And leaders aren't necessarily chosen on Charisma alone. I don't see that Bard with 20 Charisma and 15 Persuade lead that Orcish Army over the Orc Warlord who carries a bag of skulls of previous fights with him.

When it comes to races with NATURAL negatives to charisma, you have to wonder how they will relate to each other. Two commoner dwarves for example have 8 charisma. People are saying the shield dwarves have had the problems they have had due to the lack of leader types?

I remember seeing some old rules that mentioned this (and even the comeliness stat from unearthed arcana 2nd edition) that actually specifically said that to their own race these negatives ( at least for comeliness) just werent there when relating to the same race. You have to admit though that even though two low charisma half-orcs might be repulsive to humans with their habits, cleanliness, attitude, etc they may perfectly relating to each other.

I see those negatives etc in relation to some sort of BASELINE human commoner (with 10 in each stat or whatever) and how they'd recieve things. I'd actually say that the racial status is actually MORE important when it comes to race relations than the charisma score.. Drow get a bonus to charisma but are pretty much universally hated. Of course if the drow was disguised with an illusion into appearing as a non-drow the charisma may well win out then (except when particular races saw right through the illusion)

D.m's may have the luxury of looking at characters stats to see how they will recieve them (which is a great thing for flavour) , but players generally dont (unless you announce that stat in your description which I have seen some people do)

The -cha races do tend to have a lack of leadership. And if you have a bunch of cha 8 commoners, they may not all instantly hate each other, but the key is that none of them will have the force of personality to really take over the conversation and make an impression on others.

An 8 cha dwarf or halforc still isn't fit to lead, unless they have some other quality that makes them so. (Think persaude, bluff, intimidate.) Although others of the same race may not mind the habits, as above, none should have the force of personality to lead the conversation.

Now an 8 cha is below average, making you a poor leader. At 6 cha, you are antisocial and likely have problems holding on a conversation at all. You are likely so obnoxious or so shy and quiet, that either people don't want to be around you, or you are unable to be around them. Remember 6 is even bad for a dwarf or halforc.

I miss D&D 2.5 with split stats. Under that system, all stats had two parts. Charisma was made up of apperance and personality. You were able to raise 2 points on one at the cost of 2 points on the other. So for example a 10 cha character could have 8 appearance and 12 personality, or vice versa. Each part had their own issues.

Wasn't that the "Squirrels and Flowers" book?

Oops, "Skills and Powers".

Thrawn

I miss D&D 2.5 with split stats. Under that system, all stats had two parts. Charisma was made up of apperance and personality. You were able to raise 2 points on one at the cost of 2 points on the other. So for example a 10 cha character could have 8 appearance and 12 personality, or vice versa. Each part had their own issues.

That is an absolutely brilliant idea, and it's really ideal as far as thinking about your character goes!

Pinefish So would a Dwarf with 6 charisma also be disgusting to other dwarvs or would they be able to lead other Dwarfs but not be so good at leading slims and other more Charismatic people, i thaught this may be the case as thay would all be just as annoying as each other, would Low charisma people accept low charisma leaders?

My Dwarf is generally disgusted by any Dwarf that speaks in a scottish dialect, drinks heavily and is obsessed with killing... That's not even including 6 CHA!

In anycase, I used to be of the same belief (I even tried to lead a faction with a 6 CHA Dwarf!). But that was before DMs and other plays beat me with their belts and I learned better. Low Charisma characters aren't good leaders for one reason or another (Unless they buff up those social skills). The fact other characters have Low Charisma and would "Lower the Standards" so to say isn't much of a justification. Especially when you consider the fact that the "standards" are so low is more than likely because players want a Dwarf with awesome STR/WIS/CON and don't take into account his CHA.

My Dwarf is generally disgusted by any Dwarf that speaks in a scottish dialect

I'll eagerly be waiting for instructional tapes on the proper dwarvish accent to RP my character better.

Perhaps my dwarf character should speak like, "I'd like to meet at the Inn to discuss which jobs might be available for our group to try"

Instead of?......

"Aye, let's see if we can'ts get up the Rock Bottom, 'ave us some ale, and puts our 'eads together and figgers out what we be about to do."

I know which I'd prefer to RP with.

Long live scottish accent dwarfs.

But gnomes will always be the best race ever. Peroid

The leadership thing is important to remember, imo, mostly because low-charisma characters can be thrust into leadership positions on occasion.

Low charisma characters in leadership positions should 1) find it difficult to lead, 2) make it difficult for others to follow. Think about all the terrible lecturers out there - they're high-int, possibly high-wis people, but when they seize the front of a classroom or lecture hall, you have absolutely no idea what the point is they're trying to make (and you're even sober!).

Being difficult to follow should include the featherhead who might have said, "Hey, I think Krak would make an awesome leader 'cause he's a good fighter / bathes / got the job from the nice man who might pay us." He might be your comrade, but he's just doomed your party to an agonizing time someplace commoners fear to tread, with some schmo who doesn't know how to lead. If anything, he should suffer more.

Accomplishing your RP task of "lousy charisma score in a leadership position" is as simple as just not saying anything when a true leader would have spoken up. Examples: not pointing out when you're taking a healing break; not mentioning that you'll be using the choking powder now, thanks; forgetting to tell the rogue risking his leather-clad rump scouting the troll-smelling cave in the West that you've decided to head North, so he can catch up whenever; etc..

"Aye, let's see if we can'ts get up the Rock Bottom, 'ave us some ale, and puts our 'eads together and figgers out what we be about to do."

I know which I'd prefer to RP with.

Most Dwarves wouldn't speak like that. Assuming you're trying to make a point by saying that's how they commonly speak.

The scottish dialect was just something "neat" found in a few semi-amaturish literature books. One or three dwarves out of hundreds spoke it and suddenly everyone decided to emulate it! This then results in every dwarf speaking like they were beaten with a frying pan upon birth and those Dwarves with 10-14 INT speaking well must be of obvious greater or celestial intelligence or blood.

Inquisitor, I think you're mistaken in thinking that our use of a simplistic accent means that we are playing our characters like idiots. One's vocabulary, grammar and obviously accent are completely unrelated to intelligence.

I've known some very intelligent people with an accent that made them sound like illiterates. Think Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting.

His character sounded like a streetwise Boston punk, and he had that in him, but he was obviously smart as heck.

Frankly, I think you're mistaken in your thinking that our use of a simplistic accent means that we are playing our characters like idiots.

Any type of accent adds character. Isn't that what role-playing is all about?

[q]The scottish dialect was just something "neat" found in a few semi-amaturish literature books. One or three dwarves out of hundreds spoke it and suddenly everyone decided to emulate it![/q]

Does the Lord of the Rings Trilogy equate to a semi-amatuerish literature book? How about the blockbuster hugely successful movies?

The dwarf character Gimli in that trilogy is probably the most widely viewed portrayal of a dwarf in the realms of fantasy adventure. Excuse us for using that as a template....what the hell was Stephen Jackson thinking anyway?

[q]Most Dwarves wouldn't speak like that.[/q]

As you obviously consider yourself an expert, it's too bad you weren't there in the development of the script to help set him straight about how Dwarfs talk. It would have been so much more realistic. The character would have had one tenth the flair and enjoyability, but that's not important when it's not accurate, right?

Wait a minute, aren't dwarves a completely fantastical creation? How in the world do you presume to tell me or anyone how dwarves talk? That's ridiculous and insulting.

I respect that you don't like our choice in how we RP these characters, but I think it's crap that you choose to denigrate that decision in a public forum.

And extremely disappointing from an obvious vet of this server.

http://www.delving.com/speak.html

I mean, come on!!!!

As an aside, try Hebrew: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuzdul

On the original subject:

My interpretation of Charisma has always been that Charisma encompasses many things.

Not any one thing, it can be Physical Appearance, Force of Personality, leadership skills, etc.

Thrawn made an example above, but apparently he was wishing that's how it could be. I don't understand why it can't really.

I had a character exactly like that on CoA in fact. A man who was hideously scarred and burnt since he was a young boy, permanently disfigured, and yet a very kind, generous man, with exceptional leadership skills, and a highly trained tactician. I settled for 10 CHA, although higher probably would have been more appropriate.

The point is though that you can have a hideously disfigured person with 18 CHA, or an incredibly attractive woman with either no personality, or one that's extremely repulsive.(read: stereotypical high school cheerleader. You know the one. That blonde bitch who wouldn't go out with you junior year when you finally got up the nerve to ask.)

Just as easily you can (obviously) have a very attractive person with a wonderful personality, caring, generous, beloved by all, etc. But not with 8 CHA.

Web comic's interpretations of dwarves http://www.commissionedcomic.com/index.php?date=2005-10-03 http://www.dungeoncrawlinc.com/comic98.html <--one of them is an obvious parody of Shorn Connery http://thunt.comicgen.com/d/20050709.html http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=305

Gwydion, he didn't insult anyone, he merely pointed out a few things.

On a sidenote, comparing non-D&D to D&D just doesn't do well. Sure, Tolkien has had major influences on D&D, I doubt any will deny it, but merely because Tolkien had his view on Dwarves, does not mean D&D has the same view on it.

Just like Trolls. If I remember correctly, Trolls come from Scandinavian tales. Trolls were about the size of a small Dwarf, and all were vilehearted bullies, that delighted in torture, and eating little children. If the sun came onto them, Trolls would turn into stone. Tolkien as well, used the concept of Trolls, and while equally vile and bullyish, and would still turn into stone in daylight, Trolls now suddenly were 6 feet or so. In D&D, Trolls are also above 6 feet, and still vile and bullyish, but they won't turn to stone in the sun anymore, and they have the ability to regenerate.

I have now just compared three of the major fantasy-stories to compare Trolls. You'll notice that none of them really are the same. The same goes for Dwarves, Elves (Yes, they can die in D&D, they're not immortal), Halflings (Hobbits are a shy people, who like to live secluded from others, whereas our Halflings all bravely explore the world), et cetera.

I would honestly not know how Dwarves actually speak, but I would not automatically assume they spoke like Schots. I just think it's status-quo, or lack of knowledge people speak like Schots, if they really don't, according to sourcebooks. And no, I am not trying to be insultive here.

Coldburn I would honestly not know how Dwarves actually speak, but I would not automatically assume they spoke like Schots. I just think it's status-quo, or lack of knowledge people speak like Schots, if they really don't, according to sourcebooks. And no, I am not trying to be insultive here.

Coldburn, I think you prove my point for me. There are many different interprations of trolls that you documented well. So if a player world decided on one of those, it would be a weak argument to say that one were better or that the DMs chose the wrong one.

I never said that Scottish was the only accent or notable speech pattern of dwarves. Go back and re-read.

What I did want to debate was Inquisitor saying that "most dwarves don't talk like that." This is fantasy RP, and if we want to add some ye's and arse's, I think it's player choice. And I think there is enough precdent to justify the Scottish accent thingie as a legit take..

But if we wanted to say, "Ah, so solly" to infer a japanese accent or any other one, how can one player tell another that it's wrong?

In Inquisitor's defense, if he was trying to say that he didn't like the accent and didn't want to play it - that's as valid a take as mine. IC my boy might question him about it, ask him what part of the world he's from, but as Snoteye points out, there are bound to be different dialects.

Funny things is, three dwarf players were shooting tells during a boring wait time talking about which accent is the most appropriate, and all three of us started busting out some basic German. We're all slightly fluent in it, and if you really want a twist you might see some Stouts shouting, "Kommen Sie" or "Du bu bist ein Scwheinhund Herr Namli"

So you want the Scottish, or some barely intelligible childish German that some won't have a clue what we're saying?

How about we just play our characters following the general outlines according to Sourcebooks and let us enjoy the experience?

As far as the low CHA thingie Winston had the best response among the few that were constructive, and i thank you for your effort to answer my question.

Oh my ******* god. Scottish, please. I'll leave the server when Dwarves start talk Japanese.

And being one step ahead of Wiggyboy, no. If you make a Dwarf now, who speaks Japanese, I won't leave. Har! You can never tease me away!

wasn't this thread about charisma?

Coldburn

On a sidenote, comparing non-D&D to D&D just doesn't do well. Sure, Tolkien has had major influences on D&D, I doubt any will deny it,

The creator of dungeons and dragons still denies it had any influence on him to this day. Anyway as fish said lets steer the thread back towards charisma.(although I'm pretty sure the subject has been discussed as much as its going to be)

Surely a Expeirenced Fighter would be chosen over the pretty boy or the sweet talker to lead a party, they may not look good or be all to good at talking but they'd still be able to bark out orders and know how to arrange the ranks even without the high Charisma.

The Experienced Fighter with 6 CHA would be admired for his skill in battle but hated for the odor that comes from his rear, the fact he mumbles all the time, falls asleep during planning, wipes his ass and eats with the same hand and would be the constant subject for jokes at being the only man never to of gotten any action due to his disgusting attributes.

Ah, but surely the experienced fighted with 10 CHA would be a worthwile leader?

I'd say average for a Human, slightly above for a Dwarf. Afterall, a Dwarf needs to spend 4 points to reach 10 Cha.

What I meant was, that his experience and tactics would outweight his average general appeal, right? I've never understood this deal with Charisma being the be-all end-all stat for leadership, when Wisdom and Intelligence are equally important for the task.

I think Wis is more important than Cha if you want to be a good leader, but you'll still need at least an average Cha. A high Str score doesn't mean you're good at tactics, nor does it mean that you're generally good on a battlefield. It's probably the one stat that cannot mean more than one thing: physical strength.

Of the 3 mental stats I think Int is the most unimportant regarding leadership. You don't need to be able to tell the result of 3.56^4 to be a good leader, nor do you need to be able to come up with master plans all the time. As long as you can inspire your followers, make someone else do the dirty work. :)

An experienced fighter wouldn't always be chosen as the leader. People think the high Charisma bard has more potential to be a leader, initially. After that Bard orders the Wizards to frontline the Ogres, while the fighters are ordered to entertain the Bard, people might suspect that the reeking fighter might actually be better suited as a leader.

Remember, Charisma is usually an initial impression in such scenarios, and no man in his right mind would continue to cope with men who lack tactics.

And once again, having a low Charisma, does not mean you stink, or look ugly, as was implied above. Quasimodo of the Notre Dame, that hunchback fellow, probably had a high Charisma, but definatly not the looks (if you look at the Walt Disney work). Adolf Hitler was one of the most charismatic men ever alive, and for those that knew him, Pim Fortuin has it as well, but both definatly wouldn't get lucky on speed-dating, if it's based on their looks.

I think there is and always will be confusion in separating planning ability and leadership ability. The two are entirely different. The first is in my opinion based on intelligence, wisdom, and life experience, and may influence and or magnify a charismatic leader. That, however, has no impact on how that leader is perceived, and that perception at the heart of it (atleast to me) is what charisma is all about. It's about raw force of personality. It's about others turning around when you walk in a room and noticing you for your just walking in because you have that ephemeral thing we identify as charisma.

If you have met someone truly charismatic, you know what I am talking about. These people have an inherent gift to get people to chat it up, listen to what they have to say, or go along with what they want. That doesn't mean however, that a charismatic leader (cha only) is the most gifted leader, and hence the other stats for int, wis, and the skills persuade, bluff, and intimidate. People may gravitate to follow a very charismatic leader with crap ideas, and do so in everyday life. And I would echo a lot of what Coldburn had to say as well on this, but since he said it well I won't.

On leadership, charisma may attract and maintain a group, but experience (character level) will usually win out as what everyone will most likely respect and follow. I usually change how I handle a group situation dependent upon what my level is compared to the group. I usually look to the most powerful character first for leadership, and if it's me, my ability to maintain order will depend upon the group, my ability dominance, and my charisma/persuasion if needed.

As always, I second TheBeggar. He just puts it down brilliantly, unlike me.

Coldburn As always, I second TheBeggar. He just puts it down brilliantly, unlike me.

Don't worry, you still have your looks.

As this thread is testament to, Charisma is a toughy to define and hence to play. Also, because NwN does not allow for characters with say, Charisma 3, there's bound to be inconsistence in the way people interpret their stats. If Charisma 8 is the opposite of Charisma 18, then you are truly the scum of the Earth with a Charisma stat of 8. But then what if you have 6? Do you mess yourself every two minutes? Or maybe you start every dialog with smacking your fist into the face of the one attempting to converse with you. You know, just to show them you're the shit (obvious pun intended).

In my opinion, Charisma is certainly important when roleplaying your character, because it has to be the number one personality determining/guiding ability score. With that said, I don't think a Charisma 8 character should sit in the corner all the time and wait for the Charisma 16 bard to lead him to fame and fortune. After all, a Strength 8 or Dexterity 8 character would be physically disadvantaged, but not unable to fuction in the World and to some characters in NwN, such a score would limit them little in their doings.

The best way to define it: High CHA people are natural leaders, low CHA people are natural followers.

That doesn't mean they can't try to do the opposite (IE: High CHA Paladin following the low CHA Gnome.) It just means they should suck at it. The Paladin would be too busy trying to issue better orders/inspire the people as a leader might and the Gnome would be too busy being a crappy leader to notice :P

Partially in response to this thread, I have made a character with 6 charisma.

Craaaa'nek

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/forum/24/journals/index.html

Inquisitor The best way to define it: High CHA people are natural leaders, low CHA people are natural followers.

Low CHA doesn't mean you're a natrual follower, you can and probabaly very often will be, a person out only for himself, a loner, really.

Yeah I agree with rob on that one. My current low charisma character has very high intimidate score. He's mean and the only way he really understands to communicate is common and violent.

If he had ten charisma he's still be pretty scary but he'd know "well maybe calling them all arsholes in the same sentence as asking them to come and earn some gold was'nt such a good idea."

I meant it all generally! >.>

A lot of interesting viewpoints. I never liked ugliness/BO and other physical manifestations as low Cha. Seems to me that in a low tech society of escaped slaves deformities, scars, halitosis and BO would be entirely too common to cause that much of a reaction.

I'm playing Dairn The Unwary at the moment, a Cha 8 Dwarf. I haven't played him as objectionable or insulting, due to alignment. Mainly (and especially at first) I put a lot of effort into making him as bland as possible, which is surprisingly fun. He's broadened a bit over time, almost against my will, but there you go.

As for how I show his Cha now, well I make a point of forgetting people's names a lot, and call them things like 'Drunk Lady' instead. Mainly, Dairn speaks pretty much exclusively from his own frame of reference, and assumes that everyone knows what he's talking about. It works pretty well.

As for the Cha 6 fighter versus Cha 16 bard debate, I see it like this. You don't know how tactically sound that fighter is unless you've worked with him before. Initially, you're much more likely to be convinced that the job is doable by the bard. In the field, you will learn quickly (Or not, depending on your own int) that the fighter offers better advice in a tactical situation, of course. I think one of the main things a high Cha would reflect itself in the bard though, is in not exposing his weaknesses as a leader. He'd probably find a way to defer without losing face, and avoid giving tactical orders altogether.

Where the Cha comes into play for the fighter would be if he started giving orders that don't immediately make sense. He may know why it needs doing, but he won't get compliance on his personallity alone, and will have to explain a lot more. Plus the obvious, of course. Morale. If things go bad, and everyone pulls back to heal, leaving some of their own to be eaten by evil weevils or something, he'd have a much harder time convincing people to press on. Even if the dead died because they didn't follow his orders.

i would say that the difficulty of RPing low CHA is how the human player's personnality slips through any false discussion and a lot of charismatic people in real life, being good at making friends etc, find it difficult to stop themselves and act lowCha style.

The opposite ( Uncharismatic People playing Charismatic characters) is generally a total failure, or cliché.

Personnally, my character ( Kumagan) is what one would call a social failure, a bit of a friendless character. Generally he tries to make friends by telling bad jokes. I also chose an "ugly" head ( the bald one with the huge nose for humans) to show his ugliness. Today he even got the occasion to bluntly tell a demi orc he had nice body odour ( no intentions behind although)

I think the principle difference between CHA and WIS in combat situations is something like this.

If you have a high WIS or INT, and you know everything there is to know about battles and tactics, and how to react in situations, it won't do you any good if you've got 6 CHA, because you won't have what it takes to get peoples' attention. In addition, they'd be less inclined to listen to you.

For example, an army faces insurmountable odds, morale is low, and a giant slug monster is bearing down on them. The army is almost routed when the ruler of the kingdom who lead his army into that situation rides to the front and puts himself in harms way, instantly stopping the rout and raising the morale of all nearby, his people unwilling to let their king ride into harm alone. They join him and somehow manage to overcome and survive and even win the battle. The king is an extremely charismatic one to be able to persuade an entire army to join him instead of running in fear.

Perhaps it's not the wisest of decisions, but Charisma is your ability to get people to do things, not to make the smartest decisions. The king in the example just happened to be wise enough to realize that if his army held strong they could survive, and convinced his people of it with his charisma.

Good point. A low charisma character might be wise enough to see that this is what is needed to inspire the troops, but not confident enough in his own ability to lead to get on the white horse and charge to the front. Charisma sort of represents how your perception of yourself affects others' perception of you.

I simply read the Bioware Charisma description then set my scores. It basically sums up the vast amjority of opinions here. Its important to remember that extremes (6 and 18) for example should be played as extremes. Everyone else (10-16) should just play basically normal characters, albeit the small differences. As in, the 10 CHA character not being as handsome/pretty and capable of leadership as the 16 CHA character. Unless its 10 or below, it shouldnt detract from your character's playing.

A Dire Rat has 3 Charisma.

Enough said.

Inquisitor A Dire Rat has 3 Charisma.

Enough said.

Kktnx

I don't get it. :)