I noticed a distinct lack of a 'war' form in the wild shapes.

None of the ones, except the sharks (which are buggy due to the underwater thing, and not much good on land anyway) are actually useful in actual combat.

In normal NWN there are five forms.

1) Bear Forms which are heavy hitters. 2) Panther Forms which are high stealth. 3) Wolf Form which is a useful speed, flanker. 4) Boar Forms which were high HP with limited high damage. 5) Badger Form which was a high HP speed, flanker.

Now, I can't say that was the best system; I vastly prefer the option of more shapes.

Yet, looking through the lists I have--there is no "Heavy Hitter" form at all. There are a few high stealth forms (that you can't use unless you carry almost no gear because they have 3 STR), several speed, flanker forms that have mid-stealth.

I'd really like to see a "war" form though. Druids often shapeshift into animals as part of their versatility.

Right now, some of the forms are useful in niche situations like the various beetles (except the horrible Stink Beetle form), the Spiders are fun though not not as good at combat as a buffed human form (I expect their spider and web makes up for it)--but the Phase Spider is still broken and its special ability doesn't do anything.

The original Bear and Direbear forms were too powerful for this setting most likely.

Still though, I'd like to see two 'war' forms added for druids to use in combat.

At level five, I'd suggest an AC 16, 20 STR, 16 CON form that grants 10 HP. 1d8 claw or bite.

At level eight, an AC 19, 22 STR, 20 CON form that grants 20 HP. 2d6 claw or bite.

Now, just because of the PC I'm playing--I suggest these forms be Stone Lizard and Deep Lizards. That's just me.

I'd like to hear other input though overall.

As this no longer really applies to me, and I've never had a level 8 druid I don't know the extent of the animal shapes, but I concur.

I don't know if it is that there is no set list of what shape rocks at what since it is all script edited. Or How you best test and apply them, but Honestly it does seem kind of counterbalanced.

90% of the Wildshape users I see use it for druid RP, which I agree is freakin awesome, but turning into an animal is also something that druids use as, or in lieu, of combat allowing them to be more beastly than their oath allows. Raw power of nature type of thing.

While I feel that big ol' nasties like Deep Lizard should be commonplace, I agree there should be some changes to the script to throw in some Bruiser form.

As Oro had his suggestion, I figure i'll throw mine in as well.

Level 5 war form could be a Stone Lizard and level 8 War form could be a "Dire Rothe" with massive horns and burliness.

A few forms we came up with in IRC just shooting the breeze, half-joking but they are fun to contemplate.

A "nurse" spider form that let you shoot "healing" spittle for 1d4 healing up to 1d6 at level 8. Maybe "milk" spiders from the beetle hunting quest.

A "tank" form: I thought a beetle with a hard carapace, someone else said maybe a dire-rothe, could even be a very stony stone lizard--but it would have a 50% movement penalty with a 20 CON and a 25 AC or even a damage resistance. Lousy at combat but excellent at just holding foes off.

There are lots of bug forms though, which is odd since in PnP, druids can't take bug forms without special feats.

Dire Frog for level 8 combat form, please. High Dex form with the feat that lets you keep your dex ac when caught flat footed as well as weapon finesse. Also, perhaps a toxic bite that reduces strength.

I would really like to see the removal of insect forms as well, as they simply aren't animals. some of the abilities could be moved to other animals, like dire rat gets acid breath (like vomit rats, kinda). A made up sort of dog form that has a breath attack like Fire beetle does now.

Web probably cant be moved to a non insect form... and it is useful at times. But I just don't feel like spiders fit the feel of druids at all. Especially when the spiders of the underdark aren't even considered animals anymore and cannot even be Empathied, nor can beetles.

While the above changes are tempting, I must disagree with the forms called 'Tank'. I think the suggestions were kept in mind that a druid wouldn't buff himself before hand. Druids are already incredibly powerful in the wilds- here's some examples.

A "tank" form: I thought a beetle with a hard carapace, someone else said maybe a dire-rothe, could even be a very stony stone lizard--but it would have a 50% movement penalty with a 20 CON and a 25 AC or even a damage resistance. Lousy at combat but excellent at just holding foes off.

A tank is already 25 ac. Now, let's aid Barkskin and Stoneskin to this equation. You have an unbeatable tank that you likely can only hit with a true strike potion. The druid in question has 29 ac, and this is without Shield, mage armor, divine shielding, haste, or any other AC buff.

The form in question is just to powerful. While I am sure the DM's will tone it down, I am happy with the druid class as it is, as an extremely powerful class that can kick ass.

Let's not forget your animal companion, at level 7 if you cast Greater Magic Fang, your companion now has +3 enhancement on his jaws.

At level 8 your animal companion can plausibly beat a Stone giant solo- ((Trust me, I tried and won, also an Elder Stone giant.)) And Moss's companion was a rat, a buffed rat, but still a rat.

The forms are just to powerful, tone it down. Maybe 22 AC, and 17 con.

I disagree with the tank forms, but other forms are alright.

I am weary about approaching the concept of making druids "as-good-if-not-better-than-every-other-class" for reasons I think are pretty obvious.

ExileStrife I am weary about approaching the concept of making druids "as-good-if-not-better-than-every-other-class" for reasons I think are pretty obvious.

I agree, 100%

ExileStrife I am weary about approaching the concept of making druids "as-good-if-not-better-than-every-other-class" for reasons I think are pretty obvious.

Good. So am I. Glad that wasn't the actual suggestion. I pointed out that druids lack an actual 'war' form. The form that they get standard for that in regular NWN was removed because it apparently was far too powerful and was replaced by several interesting forms-but none of which are at all even remotely useful as an actual combat form.

The suggesting was to give druids a form useful in combat. Not superior to everyone else in combat. As it stands, I can't think of a druid form I prefer to combat over a 12 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON human in medium armor with a large shield.

Giving druids a form that is competent in combat will not hinder it in the slightest.

The forms are completely niche for combat situations, as opposed to a form that actually -doesn't suck- in combat.

A human with combat stats will far surpass any animal shape, unbuffed. Human shape has a ton of buffs that can't be applied to animal shapes (Weapon focus, Darkfire, etc) that are never applied to animal shapes.

It almost makes having wild shape a waste, even though in NWN and PNP alike druids use ample animal shapes in combat.

Thomas_Not_very_wise While the above changes are tempting, I must disagree with the forms called 'Tank'. I think the suggestions were kept in mind that a druid wouldn't buff himself before hand. Druids are already incredibly powerful in the wilds- here's some examples.

A tank is already 25 ac. Now, let's aid Barkskin and Stoneskin to this equation. You have an unbeatable tank that you likely can only hit with a true strike potion. The druid in question has 29 ac, and this is without Shield, mage armor, divine shielding, haste, or any other AC buff.

A tank that cannot be hit, sure. But that also cant hit. Kinda like an expertise fighter, only less damage.

Thomas_Not_very_wise

Let's not forget your animal companion, at level 7 if you cast Greater Magic Fang, your companion now has +3 enhancement on his jaws.

My animal companion has half my health. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30. No way in hell am I going to waste the potions or wands to keep that alive. Especially with how poorly the interface reacts to controlling animal companions.

Thomas_Not_very_wise

At level 8 your animal companion can plausibly beat a Stone giant solo- ((Trust me, I tried and won, also an Elder Stone giant.)) And Moss's companion was a rat, a buffed rat, but still a rat.

Besides. This isn't about animal companions. This is about making Wildshape useful. In its present form it is very highly situational at its very best.

I'd say make the slicer beetle actually have the 2-12 damage bites.

Random_White_Guy Giving druids a form that is competent in combat will not hinder it in the slightest.

Nor will it ever make us more desirable than an actual combat class. A rogue will do more damage. An archer will take less damage. A fighter with expertise (or improved expertise!) will always outlast us and remain capable of actually doing damage.

All we are looking for is to have wildshapes reconsidered. We have no good combat form presently. The closest we can get outside of the water is Sword Spider, who as noted above, is worse in all aspects than a human form druid in medium armor with a large shield. Even a druid in medium armor and a two handed weapon has better AC, Better survivability, better damage. Remember that when we shift to a form, we give up the ability to cast completely, as well as all the bonuses (like bonuses to saves and stats) granted by the gear we wear.

We give up a lot to use Wildshape and in return we are getting subpar forms that do not fulfill the purpose for which they were clearly designed.

The only case I could see for using a wildshape in melee combat would be if I had just been dry looted and had nothing else to fall back on. Then it would be somewhat ok.

I want to use wildshape. I want to like it. I even try to use it, buffing myself to high heavens and then shifting. Only to be consistently disappointed and shifting back to normal so I can actually deal damage and take less damage.

Trust me, Druids can Own in PvP if you play your cards right. A call lightning spell strikes fear into people OOCly and they panic, and make mistakes.

Trust me, flame strike, Call lightning, the game is over.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Trust me, Druids can Own in PvP if you play your cards right. A call lightning spell strikes fear into people OOCly and they panic, and make mistakes.

Trust me, flame strike, Call lightning, the game is over.

Also not about pvp. This is about being able to use forms in general.

Any class can own in pvp if you play your cards right, especially when your opponent panics.

This is not relevant.

Oh, then I fail to see a problem. Any form can do well against enemy NPC's. Even Chicken form

Focus, tom. Focus.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Trust me, Druids can Own in PvP if you play your cards right. A call lightning spell strikes fear into people OOCly and they panic, and make mistakes.

Trust me, flame strike, Call lightning, the game is over.

Try me at PvP sometime. You won't last if you think this is a winning combo.

To be fair, Oro, no one can challenge you at PvP. You wiped out all of Chabzash with a L2 Kobold, and a Grease Spell.

And you weren't even logged in!

Oro, since I really have no main who I think is awesome, I really must decline the challenge. However, one must wonder if I did not purposely give you false information to lull you into a false sense of security of already knowing my tactics that you could move out and about and defeat me easily.

I've seen your druids Tom.

I just made a cleric/druid/monk dragon >_<

Oroborous

I've seen your druids Tom.

I wasn't even in that pile.

To drag this back to focus, like some EFU nun with a ruler-

This is not about PvP.

This is about making a -large- aspect of the Druid class beneficial with its wildshape.

Wildshape is an intricate part of the druid class, and is largely unrepresented beyond "lol rat sneak" and "lol spider web"

From what I have spoken with of level 8 druids, the forms there are even more niche and hard to use in combat, and are overall a waste of time when you can instead buff yourself to high hell-

or as Mr. TheVeryWise pointed out, cast "lolpwn" spells like Call Lightning and Flamestrike.

There is just no reason to use this, in my and many other's opinion, awesome and unique aspect of the druid class in combat or survival, two things EFU thrives on.

Thank you rwg.

Thomas, please refrain from posting here if you have nothing constructive to say. This has been nothing but a massive attempt at derailment on your part.

If anyone has anything constructive to add, it would be wonderful.

Druids are one of the 11 strongest classes available. I'm not convinced they need to be stronger.

Let's stay on topic, please!

I'm unconvinced that a war form specifically would be a good thing. No matter what, the regular form will be better in combat, unless we allow a superior war form at low levels or decide to overpower druids altogether.

Instead, I think the wild shape forms should give the druid alternative skills, without making the druid extreme superstars. For instance, what could be interesting is implementing a shark form to allow a druid to breathe underwater indefinitely. We could also consider implementing Stone Lizards with high AC, but low AB, designed to be the focal point of the enemy's fight while other party members do the real damage.

Of course, this is all speculation. I don't know how to implement these myself, so it'd be up to another DM if we decide to go through with this.

Admitadly ive only ever had a druid get to 6th lvl or so but ive always found wildshape to be fine (Admitadly the only form I use is panther) I mean yes youre armour class goes down but youre strength goes up, Your con goes up, you get more attacks, and you get Temporary Hp's Plus other benefits as well.

There is a shark form Sternhund actually.

Its not really useful until 1.69 because of the polymorph underwater==superslow movement bug.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Stonelizard tanking form. I don't think it would unbalance things really.

Just for balance, please keep in mind when a druid enters wildshape-

He lacks a barbarians incredible damage, DR, and BA/number of attacks.

He lacks a fighters high AC and feats.

He lacks the flanking and multiple attacks of a ranger.

So even a high strength form won't compete here. It may have good HP or good damage, but lack the number of attacks the fighter classes have-as well as the feats--as well as the combat specializations.

Druids in wild shape can't use wands, scrolls, items, or cast spells.

Druids in wild shape must pre-buff to survive, even in a war form, and must rely solely on potions for healing once in that form.

I still don't suggest the massively over-powered direbear form that NWN came with standard; but I'd like to know that the limitations of a wildshape form are being considered when compared to the benefits of one as well.

I think form diversity is cool, so long as it doesn't somehow detract from what the benefits of being a shifter would be. I think the DMs adding anything would be certain to make it that it's not imbalanced.

I'm all for the addition of a few more forms, including some that are more combat-based. I'll be honest though, adding forms is kind of complicated, so I wouldn't hold your breath too much.

I concede on a few points, but I still think the Druid class is incredibly powerful as it is. While a few new shapes might add variety and more flavor, it wouldn't really change the combat abilities of the class. Afterall- you get the same Cleric AB progression

Howland I'm all for the addition of a few more forms, including some that are more combat-based. I'll be honest though, adding forms is kind of complicated, so I wouldn't hold your breath too much.

If it would be easier, I'd be all for simply changing a few shapes. I don't know about the DMs but I really do not feel that insects fit the feel of druids. The wildshape ability is supposed to confer animal abilities on the druid. Insects, giant or small, simply are not animals. Each of the insect forms could be replaced with something else. Some similar functionality could even still remain, like poison, fire breath and acid breath.

Just to summarize some of the previous form suggestions in one place.

Giant Frog, or Dire Frog: Venomous bite akin to spiders. Decent melee damage form. Perhaps in the range of spear damage or greater.

Flame Hound: Replaces Fire Beetle with essentially the same abilities. This would be a new species of canine, however. If this isn't feasible, perhaps a Volt form (not sure if they are animals or insects though) that replaces the fire breath with a lightning attack.

Stone Lizard: High AC, perhaps damage reduction, but not very good damage. Let it keep a decent strength so it can hit and keep things interested in it, but just low damage. 1-4 perhaps. Suitable for level 5 tank form, perhaps.

Dire Rothe: Alternative tank form, or level 8 tank form

Some sort of form with limited healing abilities. A healing spit or lick. The Nurse Spider was mentioned from a certain quest. I can't think of a more creative animal form of this.

Acid breath moved to some sort of Rat form, perhaps. Quite similar to the Vomit Rat.

Also, not to sound like a broken record, but the low STR forms need to be changed to allow them to be useful for their intended stealthy purposes. Since they are clearly not meant to be damage forms, merely impose a massive damage and AB penalty to make up for whatever strength is added.

Even if its tough to add new forms, how tough is it to change existing ones.

Such as Chicken. This has to be the most useless form there is, even the Phase Spider with a broken ability has more use than a chicken.

There's a chicken? That's so awesome.

Someone should wildshape into a rat and comfort the Chucker quest guy.

Snoteye There's a chicken? That's so awesome.

There is indeed, and it's quite awesome if you enjoy being chased around town by every hungry 8 int halforc with a speech impediment while you yourself have only a 3 str and are heavily encumbered as a resut. :-)