I propose that GSF conj and/or conj spec do something to affect ones ability to summon. The reasoning being, summoning is conjuration, the heart of the school really. It just seems odd to me, that my character who devotes a ton of time to conjuration is no better or worse then any other mage who takes the time to use the same reagent.

Perhaps confer the ability to have 2 summons out at the same time with GSF conj? On the fliped side, it's not as if there is no drawback to conj to even this out. The conj spec more or less entirely removes your ability to buff, which is a pretty serious hit. So it would just be nice to get something back, which by all rights makes a lot sense IC.

I agree with this, would add a whole other element to mages summoning in EFU.

I disagree! Sure, summoning is nice but some of the themes are insanely powerful, two or three of them would be crazy. Conjure school has some very nice spells that are -not- summons too. Ever tried empowered acid breath spray? Or some of the cloud spells? Remember they have DC's that are raised by GSF: Conjure. I played somewhere that you could summon 3 things for longers times, it was so overpowered throwing 3 super bad ass summons at some poor boss mob or PC!

I think I may have heard that they already extend the duration of your summons, SF and GSF that is.

This may however be blatant misinformation.

They do in normal NWN, though I am not sure if this was changed in EfU. I'll go check the FAQs now.

Okay, just looked, and there's nothing that I can see in either "Magic" or "Mechanics Changes" that would give the impression of SF Conjuration being altered in any way. However, I also heard a while back that SF and GSF Conjuration added a summons each, for a max of three. This, I am fairly sure, does NOT work in EfU.

My two cents.

Jasede I think I may have heard that they already extend the duration of your summons, SF and GSF that is.

dragonfire9000 They do in normal NWN

dragonfire9000 However, I also heard a while back that SF and GSF Conjuration added a summons each, for a max of three.

putrid_plum I disagree! Sure, summoning is nice but some of the themes are insanely powerful, two or three of them would be crazy. Conjure school has some very nice spells that are -not- summons too. Ever tried empowered acid breath spray? Or some of the cloud spells? Remember they have DC's that are raised by GSF: Conjure. I played somewhere that you could summon 3 things for longers times, it was so overpowered throwing 3 super bad ass summons at some poor boss mob or PC!

Thing is plum, everything you listed requires at least spell lvl 5 to be effective. Seeing as Empowered breath is Slvl 5, and no cloud spells actually do any damage before slvl 5

Besides which, my complaint was someone who does not take GSF and spec in it, is every bit as effective a summoner as someone who does. Which seems kind of lame to me. Also, those uber powerful summons from certain trees often require hundreds of gold in rare reagents to pull off, every single time you summon them.

As an aletrnative to allowing multiple summons, I'll sugest perhaps an extra level on the summons of someone with this spec? Or perhaps a few rounds extended durations would be cool.

I can make the non-summon conjuration spells quite effective, At most I'd think the summon could get half a round to a round extra time summoned.

I think extending the duration would be a nice perk but not really unbalance things much.

Similar suggestions have cropped up a few times, but summons are pretty goddamn powerful already!

Not in favour of this.

I know how useful summons can be, people just have to learn how to use reagents, and there are some very good reagents out there.

I wouldn't mind seeing GSF: Conjuration extend the duration of summons.

Summons with the proper reagents can be VERY powerful I agree, but that's not the point Ix is making. Why wouldn't a mage with GSF conjuration have something more powerful for their summons, whether it be a slightly longer duration or whatever over your stock standard mage?

I think a small increase in duration would satisfy most conjurers and not be unbalancing.

The fact you can extend the summons already and if you use a proper reagent that level 3 extended summon can be much more powerful than the normal level summon. The key to summons is to experiment what works best and when, and how to use them.

Rather than extending, I would say make reagents available/active the more SF/GSF you have.

I think it is rather foolhardy for a wizard who has rarely studied conjuration, to find a badass reagent, and all of the summon be able to summon Circle II things that could crush the Circle IV of a more dedicated conjurer.

Rather than extend the spells, I would say treat it as a sort of "Level Requirement" based on knowledge.

If you have no SF, you have some limited reagents.

If you haev SF it spreads out wider, to more powerful things

If you have GSF it spreads out even wider

If you have GSF and are a wizard with Conjuration as spell school, and are considered an expert of the field, there should be a wide array of powerful and situational things that could be useable by your summoner.

NOt sure how this would be scripted, but there are some pretty amazing things i've seen in EFU, and if this would be doable I think it would satisfy alot of conflict

Or perhaps the reagent can "unlock" alternate summons for each level for those with SF/GSF as another possibility.

BTW Relinquish, it's been said several times that no one denies summons can be/are powerful when used in certain ways. The issue originally raised remains that a conjurer with GSF is no more powerful at conjurations than a standard mage, which seems a little unbalanced to me.

I like RwG's suggestions, actually.

There are some good offensive conjuration spells that the Focii feats affect. They are far less gimped than say SF: Transmutation, or Divination.

Spell Focus: Transmutation is pretty darn good, 9. >.>

If you hit 11.

SF/GSF: Transmutation is pretty darn good for some characters at any level. >.>

My two cents:

I played a conjeror a long time ago (close to the time I first joined), and the short duration combined with the fact that wizards of more powerful schools could easily match me was.... somewhat discouraging.

So I like Rwg's suggestions alot, as long as sorcerers could use all of them with just GSF conjuration, as they can never get a school.

Also: weaken Clerical summons. Nomatter how much money I poured into reagents, A cleric of Kossuth or Velsharoon still could summojn as good as me for free.

In D&D, there is even a PrC just for conjerors, but thats unimplementable. =(

Hammerfist0

...So I like Rwg's suggestions alot, as long as sorcerers could use all of them with just GSF conjuration, as they can never get a school.

Also: weaken Clerical summons. Nomatter how much money I poured into reagents, A cleric of Kossuth or Velsharoon still could summojn as good as me for free... (

Well. Sorceror's can never really be on par with wizards, study of a school of magic wise, which is why I was making the suggestion for them. Throwing everything you are into a craft, I would like to think would reap more results than just naturally rocking at it. Not that sorceror's don't work for their craft, but Wizards pour countless hours allegedly over spellbooks, giving them deeper understanding.

As for gods, well.

Gods are just selfish to their worshipers I guess heh.

Well. Sorceror's can never really be on par with wizards, study of a school of magic wise, which is why I was making the suggestion for them. Throwing everything you are into a craft, I would like to think would reap more results than just naturally rocking at it. Not that sorceror's don't work for their craft, but Wizards pour countless hours allegedly over spellbooks, giving them deeper understanding.

As for gods, well.

Gods are just selfish to their worshipers I guess heh.

I have to disagree with the sorcerer portion.

They gain their power from the blood of a greater race. A dragon, A god, A creature above humans. They have a much more intimate relation with the weave, able to draw upon it with the only limits to their powers being their confidence and will.

Sorcerers, in FR history set, tend to ascend to god and demi-god hood when wizards generally take the path of the Archmage. Ok, not the only, but the only the Nwn has. The chosen of mystra are more bonded with the weave, but meh.

Sorcerors are not "weaker wizards with more spells". They are an utterly different class with different ability's and powers.

Back a few games ago, we played a scenario where we decided to beat the crap out of a level 3 sorcerer mother and tie her down while she watches us kill her child (Not a good aligned group, I might add). She casted wish on our asses. This isnt a case of insane DM, either, as the sorceror description even states that levels are, perhaps, not the best way to reflect a sorcerers ability's.

[/rant]

Yeah, Sorcerors are kinda my favorite class, so I might be biased. But even from a mechanical standpoint, dont we nerf sorcerors enough?

Im done now. *dons fireproof vest*

I think that adding some sort of rarer reagent that summons exceptionally awesome theme of creatures with some sort of ((OOC: Only use this if you have GSF Conjuration)) would be a pretty cool and easily implemented thing WHATEVER OK.

I think it would be cool if GSF: Conjuration gave an extra summon, but not SF: Conjuration.

Hey, that's a pretty fair idea there Clowns. And perhaps SF could just give a slightly lengthened duration? A couple of rounds, say two or three maybe? Seems reasonable to me.

I've played a number of conjurers. In my opinion, conjuration is already one of the most powerful schools in the game. If you want to make it interesting, get really good with your reagents. Sure, any mage can use them, but practicing when to use what consistently will make you a better conjurer by default. Don't stick with one reagent theme, have something ready for all occasions.

If you are only taking the SF or GSF for extra summons or lengthed duration, you're using mechanics to your advantage. If you take them because your character really focuses on this school, then get good at conjuration without mechanical advantages. Be better then your fellow mages without these bonuses by being smart about your useage.

As a final note, wizards and sorcerers both have different advantages when it comes to conjuration. I've played both, and can't say one is any better then the other. I prefer the sorcerers though, because it allows for slightly more variations. Wizards will get you those big fellas faster though.

Panama is profering the creation of the "Skill Focus(toolset lore)" feat. There needs to be an IG effect on spell focus, and it would not be fair if only lvl 11 monsters get to benefit from it (or whenever you get those level 5 spells. I dunno. All my spellcasters never make it far past bull's strength).

Personally, I love both The White Boy and Draggie's ideas.

I wouldn't mind seeing GSF conjuration extend conjurations as well, seeing as conjurer wizards can't cast very beneficial transumtation spells, the creatures they summon have to pick up the slack for it.

I just recently started a conjurer. I did it personally for RP and gimp him on transmutation. Adds flavor.

But before I go off on a tangent my my character, I would have to say though that even though my wizard has focused his life around conjuration, he is of course no better at summoning then any other mage.

Now mechanically or not, this makes no sense. my wizard is schooled, SF and GSF conjuration.

Ill steal really quick from previous suggestions for my right quick.

I like the suggestion that if you have focus, SF and GSF you unlock the use of certain reagents. The first part of my suggestion is that reagents are assigned a value from 1 to 100 based on rarity and usefulness. 100 being the best.

Now heres how it would work: SF unlocks values 11-50 GSF unlocks values 51-85 School focus unlocks values +15 to the feats.

This way if a conjurer wants to summon the best with the best reagents, he is forced to take the feats and school focus.

Now values 1-10 would be usable by all mages for balancing purposes.

I also beleive that SF shuld add duration. This duration would be 1 round per 2 caster levels. This meens even at lvl 10 it would only give 5 rounds, but its something and not over powered.

School focus conjuration would give 1 extra conjuration spell up to a certain spell level. The level of max spell would be determined by caster level /3 rounded down.

GSF conjuration could work like a nerfed augmented summon. Gives +2 strength and +2 con and +1 ac nat.

Now I know the comments of "thats over powered" are going to start flying. But think about it. A gnome illusionist with school focus and GSF. First they gain essentially a bonus feat becasue of their class. Second, with an 18 int, and a fourth level PhK, they destroy anything on the server. Ya I know theres death ward, but theres not enough PhK flying around to warant it.

Or the same can be said for any evoker speced the same way. Stupid high DCs, and this isnt considered over powered.

I dont think this my conjuration ideas are over powered, comments?

Many people do not fully realize how extensive a task it is to modify systems like these. I think the DM team as a whole agrees that the summoning system is not optimal, but changing it involves first deciding how we want it to work; scripting the actual system; redoing all the creatures; and finally balancing. As it stands right now, we'd be much better served by just remaking the creatures to make more sense, but even that is daunting enough that we'll all rather worry about more pressing matters.

I was in no way suggesting this should happen ASAP.

I was just making system suggestions :)

I could be wrong, but doesn't SF & GSF already give a slight addition to the duration of summons?

I'm almost positive that it did at one point, at least (I stopped playing for over a year, almost two, so purhaps it was removed then).

This is a myth. GSF and SF do not extend the duration of summoning spells, or do anything to improve them.

Nor has it ever been the case.