First, there are numerous facts on it. Read them. If your going to play here, get good at it. It is invariably going to be part of your story for the forseeable future.

Second, in the last two years, it seems like the server has gone from storytelling thru rp with some pvp to storytelling thru mostly pvp with some rp. I do not mean the Montezzi brothers. They have been stellar. But alot of characters have been ended latley without a word, just ganked FD and that's it. So be it, but no one is saying so, so I brought it up. Personally, I don't mind at all, I now make PVP builds, and look for it where I can, so I can get better at it. But I have heard alot of other players grumbleing about it. So I am resurrecting this dead horse, so those that missed the other discussions that came wth the last turn when gangland ruled lower, can speak up.

(dons flame retardent suit) you may comence..

I'm going to go ahead and blame all the min/maxed builds that join up with whatever the superpower is and get a free ride on the loot train.

Well I will just say this. I am trying very hard to be tasteful and considerate. I am personally much more interested in scheming and intrigue than just flat out PvP, although PvP has its place too I think. I've tried to subdual as much as possible and give plenty of chances for players who want to keep playing their characters an opportunity to do so.

A lot of people have been wanting to join my faction. I would like to hope that they are doing so because of the RP opportunities and not just as a way to get loot. If they're getting loot, I don't know where from.

But I do admit a lot of players who I've never seen before are joining up, and they may be inexperienced with stuff like this. So I'd suggest if someone is being too pvp heavy they either let someone know IC (https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/37/37689/justice-in-the-realm/index.html) or talk to a DM.

Charm I've tried to subdual as much as possible and give plenty of chances for players who want to keep playing their characters an opportunity to do so.

I, actually, avoid PvP. I don't like it. I go to lengths both IC and OOC to avoid it because I do not feel like it must be an invariable part of my character's stories. Personally, I find the kind of conflict that usually arises from PvP to be distasteful and unsatisfying.

Just so you guys know... you are not forced to PvP on EfU, by any means, just because all the cool kids do it.

efuincarnate First, there are numerous facts on it. Read them. If your going to play here, get good at it. It is invariably going to be part of your story for the forseeable future.

Second, in the last two years, it seems like the server has gone from storytelling Through rp with some pvp to storytelling Through mostly pvp with some rp. I do not mean the Montezzi brothers. They have been stellar. But a lot of characters have been ended lately without a word, just ganked FD and that's it. So be it, but no one is saying so, so I brought it up. Personally, I don't mind at all, I now make PVP builds, and look for it where I can, so I can get better at it. But I have heard a lot of other players grumbling about it. So I am resurrecting this dead horse, so those that missed the other discussions that came with the last turn when gangland ruled lower, can speak up.

(dons flame retardant suit) you may commence..

So...many....grammer errors! *Fixes*

I agree with some of what has been said.

I have never known so much PVP FD'ing in such a short space of time... my PC due to IC reasons have been watching from the sidelines somewhat, but i would say the amount of PVP has brought a different *feel*, its less about subtle intrigue and plotting and more "we are all going to die anyway so lets take a few of them with us!" or "lets just steer clear of that area and people or we are gonna die"

Good, bad, i am not sure... but different it certainly is.

What's "FD'ing"? :?

Full Damage, when you send someone to the fugue

I see little problem with FD being used as long as it's appropriate to do so IG. I've seen characters who would FD people in duels for simply not showing them proper respect in everyday conversation.

As long as both parties know the consequences and the risks implied and it simply isn't wanton FD for loot and whatnot, then I see no problem.

That said, when there is a sever superpower it is good to have some restraint. Montezzi's faction, for the most part, has been displaying restraint reasonably well and atleast offers those they are likely to FD some decent roleplay before it comes, which is more than I can say for some occassional PKing.

Hung back for awhile before I posted this, but I do think PvP needs clearer guidelines for players and DMs.

The major rules on engaging are very clear, but afterwards some things are fuzzy which cause problems.

1). There is no real pattern for when PvP is perma-death. I've had a character decapitated and raised from his head. I've had one merely burned, but was unrecoverable. DMs made both rulings. I was extremely frustrated with the second one and even took a short break afterwards to calm down. I still don't know exactly what the reasoning was, but was told "its fair" by a DM who explained I couldn't know all the details OOC.

2). I think that is a problem too. Sometimes, if a player is upset about something OOC--it may be time to give them details of what is going on. It helps the communication more when DMs occasionally pull aside the curtain and let people see the full story more. That solves many problems I learned in the past.

3). PvP meant someone wanted you dead. If you lose it, you should stay dead. If you want to come back, you should contact your killer and find out how they feel about it and how they want to proceed. DMs should not bypass this either and encourage a slain character to return, unless the player's killer is long since gone themselves-or again was spoken to. I typically will ask my killer after I lose PvP if I should stay dead, or if friends will find the body. Sometimes you were killed as a warning, sometimes you were killed for loot--so coming back shouldn't matter. Yet, maybe you were killed because you're a member of the House of Light and someone was seeking to destroy the entire faction by killing all its members. I often say I'm completely fine with a character coming back, if killing them wasn't a part of a larger goal, assuming the guy isn't going to come after me later for "killing them". I think that is about as ridiculous as you can get. When playing Fawkes, he refused to ever arrest anyone for "killing" them-if you were alive, you were alive and obviously all that happened was assault, or assault with intent to kill.

4). PvP is rarely random, or out of the blue. Often there are more reasons to a death than the victim even realized. It helps for a player to really talk it over afterwards with their killer to explain their reasoning. Players should feel encouraged to do this, without all the FOIG that is bandied about. If I kill someone's player, I'll explain pretty directly why I did it--but occasionally have known people to not ask, who then think the reasons weren't good. I know after my characters die, I like to talk it out and learn what was going on. Its actually helpful to understand the end of your character's story.

5). PvP is a QA is a hugely touchy point. What bothers me about this is, you hit someone when they are engaged with foes. That's fine, but there are elements of metagame that just aren't recognized. You typically know the foe hitting your 'mark' isn't going to come after you as long as he's standing. You know you won't get 'ambushed' from the rear by the monsters who you know will engage anyone in the party that may defend your 'mark'. I'd almost encourage DMs who allow assassinations to happen in QAs to switch up the monsters a little, perhaps that zombie ogre in the rear goes straight for the assassin this time, maybe a goblin pyromancer pops the assassin and the heroes with a fireball or a dispel. The element of randomness should provide a risk to everyone when an assassin hits in a QA. I've always avoided killing people on QAs because I feel it is far easier to kill someone in a QA than anywhere else-its always struck me as highly unethical and unfair.

To sum up, while most the guidelines on PvP are very clear--some issues aren't addressed or made clear. I'm told the DMs are discussing these issues right now after I had a recent bad situation with PvP caused by a miscommunication of players expectations and DM communication.

Secutor I, actually, avoid PvP. I don't like it. I go to lengths both IC and OOC to avoid it because I do not feel like it must be an invariable part of my character's stories. Personally, I find the kind of conflict that usually arises from PvP to be distasteful and unsatisfying.

Just so you guys know... you are not forced to PvP on EfU, by any means, just because all the cool kids do it.

Also, Oro made some reasonable points, for better or worse, I find myself agreeing with everything he said as well.

On deaths and coming back:

- A character killed in PvP who has not had his corpse disfigured (burned, limbs cut off, beheaded) can be brought back by a Raise Dead spell under any circumstances, even if the killer of the player expressed he does not wish this to happen.

- A character killed in PvP who has had his corpse disfigured (chopped up, burned, beheaded) can only be brought back by a Resurrection spell. This return can succeed even if one of the limbs or the head or another solid piece of the corpse has been recovered (including fingers). Hairs and pieces of clothing which might have some dried skin fragments on it -or anything else ridiculous like that- cannot be used to return a dead character in this fashion. As before, this process can be used to return a dead character to life even if the killer has expressed that it is not his desire for such to happen.

We're currently considering doubling the cost of Resurrection spells from 5K to 10K.

On Oro's point about QA PvP:

I fully agree that if a DM let's someone into a QA to attack someone else, said DM should even the odds somewhat by changing up the monsters' tactics/targets.

In response to Oro:

1) In the past you are correct. There's been some confusion on both sides of the fence I believe regarding what can and can't happen regarding who comes back and under what circumstances they can do so. However, as I've outlined above the rules have been made clear and henceforth I don't think there will really be any more confusion (hopefully!) on the matter.

2) This is pertinent to alot of stuff beyond deaths in PvP, and I agree. Communication issues are simply the biggest problem in many cases, and its something both players and DMs can always work on improving.

3) No. See my post above.

4) Its perfectly fine to ask your killer why he killed you, perfectly fine to tell your slain opponent why you killed them, but also perfectly understandable and even -required- in many cases NOT to tell them why you killed them. This isn't an expectation we wish to cultivate.

5) PvP in QAs is touchy. Yet, the amount of variables PvP in a QA introduces for any would-be assassins (explained at length in another recent post) seldom if ever make it the best option. If PvP does happen in a QA, we do ask that the attacking players steer away from making the drop while their targets are fully engaged with large spawns. However, it is also worth noting that the nature of many quests means that often there will be little to no intervals between fighting, in which case it is fine for attacking PCs to drop in during combat. What is -integral- is that the assassin characters do not OOCly wait around for their target to go questing. If you are stalking someone for a decent amount of time and they happen to go on a quest, and you contact a DM and get a transition set up for you, then it is fine.

Totally support 10k Ressurections. 5k is so brutally easy to get, any character with a couple friends can have a res easy as hell with them peged at 5k.

Totally support Oros feelings about PvP in a QA as well. It just feels lame to me. Like there is a certain knowledge that no matter what you do, you've got them dead to rights.

It should be way more then 10K Personally I think you should have a Dm for T Rs to determine the price! I think it would cost more if you have something small like a finger compared to something large iike everything but a head!

Also if you want to know something! Their are plenty of Ig ways to prevent even a TR that are best learned IG

The clarification does help to know Caddies. This was most certainly not clear to me before.

Personally, on City of Arabel, I never ever saw an assassination in a QA fail for the assassin. It is very heavily stacked in their favor unless a DM is working to keep the fellows on their toes.

I read that other post. I discounted almost all of it as entirely inaccurate in all my years of experience. Its nearly impossible to fail at PvP in a QA unless you somehow failed to surprise your foe.

Finally, with the way PvP can cause hard feelings, I think its better to leak a little information to a person--an actual person behind the computer screen--to let them know why you killed them than it is to keep a game secret safe and secure. I'd be disappointed to think maintaining secrets are a bigger priority than just keeping the game fun for someone. Sure, people need to handle PvP with maturity, and perhaps should just accept "I had a plot reason, sorry you died, but that's how it goes. It was all legit." Generally, just saying that will work with players--but if it really doesn't seem to be--I think then perhaps just spill the beans.

pyth Totally support 10k Ressurections. 5k is so brutally easy to get, any character with a couple friends can have a res easy as hell with them peged at 5k.

Totally support Oros feelings about PvP in a QA as well. It just feels lame to me. Like there is a certain knowledge that no matter what you do, you've got them dead to rights.

Not everyone gets paid to wander around the town >_<

So...many....grammer errors! *Fixes*

It's Grammar.

And as far as PvP goes... QAs I say are fair game. So long as the assassin doesn't enter as a part of the group with the sole intent of questing with the person only long enough to kill them. It automatically gives the Assassin more of a challenge because often enough a character might be persuaded to go somewhere alone or mostly alone. Or they just do it on their own. Whereas in a QA they are not only prebuffed, but with friends who -should- be helping them to stay alive. It would be nice to see the DM step in with some randomness to the spawns as well, since a DM has to be there anyway. This isn't really necessary though.

As for the rest... well pvp is fairly easily avoided if you want to. You can always hire someone else to do your killing, or you can gather your friends and go into the situation prepared and united if you really cannot avoid it. But truly, this is still very much an RP server. It is very easy to get involved in things that do not require much, if any, pvp. Your character can live their whole lives without ever drawing blade against another player. It's just a matter of what you want to accomplish and how. Lately, I find that many of the people who have died to the great montezzi plot, are people who went -looking- for trouble. They were woefully unprepared and in many cases did not approach the pvp as a group, but rather tried to play the hero and got dead for it. I've gotten close to blows with them myself. But a little quick talking and RP solved the situation much more effectively than had I just gone nuts and attacked.

The thing that I think people forget, honestly, is that things take time. This is true in real life as well. If you want to solve things through diplomacy, it will take you longer. Killing often seems like the fastest route, but as you increase the speed at which you complete a goal, you also increase the risk factors. The more you rush things, the more likely you are to die or become seriously harmed.

A sprinkling of patients (or patience, if you like!) could do a lot of people a great deal of good!

Irony is a fickle mistress.

'Patience'.

Unless she meant the infirm.

9lives Irony is a fickle mistress.

'Patience'.

Indeed! I had a feeling that was wrong. was just too lazy to double check

MadCaddies

- A character killed in PvP who has had his corpse disfigured (chopped up, burned, beheaded) can only be brought back by a Resurrection spell. This return can succeed even if one of the limbs or the head or another solid piece of the corpse has been recovered (including fingers). Hairs and pieces of clothing which might have some dried skin fragments on it -or anything else ridiculous like that- cannot be used to return a dead character in this fashion. As before, this process can be used to return a dead character to life even if the killer has expressed that it is not his desire for such to happen.

We're currently considering doubling the cost of Resurrection spells from 5K to 10K.

My understanding from PNP is that this spell works with even the smallest fragment including hairs, in the description it states the ash left behind by a disintegration spell can be used so long as the part was attached at the time of death. so i am just wondering if that is a custom change for the server

Yes. We thought it best that the requirement be something a little more tangible than the memory of a skin flake. We're currently discussing ways of making it somewhat difficult but achievable.

I might post more later, but just as quick note, PC corpses killed from PvP should be persistent now, so if you want them to stay dead you can take the body and hide it.

Kill them, Burn the body, Take the ashes, put them in water, freeze the water, make a little boat and set the cube of ice sailing on the dark lake.

I think PvP plays a heavy role in EfU due to the constant questing that EfU has, everyone quests alot it is the foundation for meeting people/discovering/entering plots. Those whom are not seen questing are rarely involved in PvP, just the way it is.

I have noticed that lots of PvP and rules threads seem to go up after major PvP/assassinations, and rises of people/factions who use those techniques. It seems most of the things which have been brought up here have been addressed in other similiar and recent threads, though!

Harder to achieve/more expensive true resurrections - Yes Please!

Trendy,

I've spoken to you personally about this, so you know I'm cool with things overall. I don't really care for the suggestion that this has all been discussed before, so go search through the archives. *yawn* Frankly I have better things to do with my spare time, and DM rulings are subject to change I would hope, as different arguments are presented. No DM present PvP in Lower is a good example.

During the actual assassination, I made numerous tactical errors due primarily to my inexperience with PvP. I could have done any number of things that would have helped that I didn't do, but that's not why I rang.

The reason I posted this scenario was that there ARE elements of OOC knowledge on the attacker's side, and disadvantages against the target for assassination when in a QA. Something as simple as running away/through spawns to escape the assassins can give the spawns numerous attacks of opportunity which is a big advantage!

And, I'm pretty sure one of the characters that joined our party on the clowns quest was a Montezzi - correct? The human fighter with the name that started with M?

We were fully engaged by spawns at the time of the attack, when OOCly they knew there would be a brief lull right before we went into the big tent.

There was no RP between any of the assassins and my character at any time. None before, none after, and the only RP during was Breena yelling "Help!" and the goblin yelling, "Ghyrrt!". Breena had never met any of the characters that attacked her, and had only indirectly heard of two of them.

These things took the fun out of the PvP for me. One very good veteran player I know asked me how she died, and when I told him vial TELL he said, "Ouch, that's cold."

This thread was intended only as a suggestion. These things warrant consideration since people put dozens of hours into developing their chracters I think. The decision to perma my character didn't affect only me, but everyone on the server knew most of the Mithrilsouls were going to go kamikaze when she was assassinated. And as a result, an RP based faction that had quite a few players (15) was all but destroyed.

I understand all the IC reasoning behind the assassination. But a simple, "The hairs on the back of your neck go up, and you sense a presence behind you," from a DM would have made it more sporting I think. And fun for all involved. I think she still would have gone down, but it would have been a lot more worthwhile than having a character stand over Breena's prostrate form swinging multiple times to finally score the death blow after a completely one-sided battle. How many characters were in the gank squad? Five? Six?

Maybe even a, "Lord Montezzi sends this as a warning, that if you do not beg his pardon that your life and that of your dwarves is forfeit," would have been more fun?

Kudos to Charm for (apparently) giving the dwarves a chance to rebuild though. :D

Discussion is good, people.

Howland I might post more later, but just as quick note, PC corpses killed from PvP should be persistent now, so if you want them to stay dead you can take the body and hide it.

Trendy politely informed me that it was 4 PCs, and that that party levels actually favored the target side in our PvP. I stand corrected.

I guess some of my comments look whiney, which is certainly not my intent, so I'll go back to the original point of the thread.

When in QAs, there seems to be an advantage for the assassins. It's wrong (and stupid) to assume that it's closed to non-party members, but it's human nature. I think it'd be nice for SOMETHING to dispel this OOC illusion, if only the presence of a DM being apparent.

I just wanted to add that in the past I've known a -lot- of great characters who half the server wanted to kill. The fact that people did not kill them right away is what allowed them to continue to be great and make a difference. That's not to say that it isn't completely logical for characters to PvP and FD one another, just that it can sometimes be better for all (this includes you as the enemy) to let those players live.

As a short example, I played a watchman who at one time had plans to kill his "superior" officer. The reason he didn't was because the officer was a kick ass character, and I didn't want to see him go OOC. In the end it made for better game play for not only the rest of the server, who were linked to one of these characters, but also for myself and the officer, who were able to develop a long standing nemesis as opposed to a one day winner take all.

In my experience on efu, the wars of ideas have always been more interesting then the usually short lived PvP sessions. Besides, PvP is more fun the longer the build up has been, and the more drama that lays beneath it.

Testing, testing.

No FD in duels or random PvP encounters is fine with me, (I understand the whole dramatic death scene concept), but IMO, war or large gang fights should be FD or nothing at all. If you are unwilling to take a chance of dying, don’t go to war, plain and simple.

It’s a bit disappointing in pitch battle PvP’s where we are told to take the FD down. This is just wrong!

Example: Team A casts a fireball and takes out all but the protected from fire cleric of team B, of which two of team B would have died outright if it were FD. Yet non-FD was set so now team B’s cleric cast his circle of healing and miraculously all his allies jump back to their feet. Whoa! Wait a minute! At least two of team B’s PC’s should be in fugue making the entire outcome of this battle now null-and-void simply because we were told to take it off FD. This six vs six war stays even because of non-FD, were it FD like a real war the odds would now be 6 to 4 in the favor of team A. Lets take this example a step farther.. Team B’s wizard now gets off a fireball and takes out all team A except the cleric, only team A’s cleric doesn’t have circle of healing, because of this he only manages to revive one of his allies. Now the odds are 6 to 2 in favor of team B where were it FD team B’s wizard would have been fugue'd and not been there to cast his fireball at all.

Now the winning side not only gets all the loot, they get XP and no loss of XP from a death. If you go to war and expect a dramatic death scene you’re expecting a lot. How many wars have there ever been where one side had absolutely no losses whatsoever and the other side was annihilated. <(Rhetorical question, there are none). To make a PvP war more realistic it should be FD and if the remainder of the winning side wants to bring their dead back to life by whatever means, then so be it, but until then, once a PC is fugue’d in a war they should be out for the duration, not lay there until one of their allies manage to toss a potion of healing on them. And the dead of the winning side should not only eat their death XP loss they should get no XP just for being on the winning side, just like the losing side gets none. And to define a ‘war’ in EfU I would think a certain amount of PC’s should be set, say 4, 5 or 6, (more or less) on each apposing side, or something like that. . .

Um...

If you are subdued in PvP, your out of that combat. It doesn't matter WHAT they heal you with- you stay down, you stay out cold. So the above example could use some tailoring.

Also, the situation dictates if it should be FD or subdual, No worldwide rules would do anything here. However, Its nice not not FD someone straight out of combat. The chat before you kill them is the better part of dieing IMO. I think we're on a tangent though.

Team A casts a fireball and takes out all but the protected from fire cleric of team B, of which two of team B would have died outright if it were FD. Yet non-FD was set so now team B’s cleric cast his circle of healing and miraculously all his allies jump back to their feet.

That shouldn't happen. If you are subdued you are subdued. Healing does not change that, so if someone was healed after they were beat down and got back into the fight, to my understanding a DM should have paused the game and told them to drop back down.

Even if the game engine allows you to get back up, you are supposed to stay down.

Ebok If you are subdued in PvP, your out of that combat. It doesn't matter WHAT they heal you with- you stay down, you stay out cold. So the above example could use some tailoring.

Also, the situation dictates if it should be FD or subdual, No worldwide rules would do anything here. However, Its nice not not FD someone straight out of combat. The chat before you kill them is the better part of dieing IMO. I think we're on a tangent though.

Even if they stay down, what did the winning side lose? They lose no XP, they lose no gold for reviving their dead and they can end up with a no loss situation in a war scenario. They gain XP just for being on the winning side even though they ‘died’ (stayed down), they heal themselves with the losing sides loot and get stronger while the side that lost gets weaker.

It’s just my opinion (and I’m not on a tangent), I for one will be avoiding pitch battle PvP’s in the future because of this imbalance.

I'm not sure I understand. Your situation just wouldn't happen.

First, if at the opening of the battle Team A's wizard knocked out four out of their six, that leaves two men standing on the other side who are injured. Team B still has six people standing.

Second, if Team A loses to the remaining two individuals of Team B then they deserve to lose. It was a fair fight.

Third, the only reason you don't FD out right during a pitch battle like that is to allow after battle RP.

Fourth, there is no mandatory rule that tells you that you cannot FD out right like that. It's just a common courtesy to the other players involved, unless the presiding DM gives you specific instructions. The whole point of this courtesy is to give the victor a chance to stand triumphantly over his enemy, and give his enemy a chance to give a dying word before you cut off his head. Alternatively, it is also a chance for the enemy to grovel before the victor and plead for their life, or for the victor to make demands of his enemy.

Fifth, this courtesy is not always given. If you are assassinated in the middle of Upper Sanctuary, surrounded by Watchmen and Spellguard Agents for example, you are likely going to be taken out instantly with little to no RP in most cases.

So on and so forth. It depends on the situation, the players involved, and the DM(s) overseeing the combat.

Ideally someone shouldn't be FDed out of the blue. There should either be RP leading up to the FD or right before, and generally speaking it is always nice for the victor to give his enemy a chance to save himself. That could be anything from converting to his deity, pledging to serve him loyally, to handing over a sought after item, to giving up useful information and so on and so forth.

On that same note, if someone spares your life it is the height of lameness to leave that situation, gather together a group of friends to form a gank squad, and then hunt down and FD the player that was kind enough to spare your characters life. If your character is spared it's to continue the story.

It is individuals who do stuff like that which ruin such courtesies for everyone. If someone were to do that to my character, I would be reluctant to ever offer that player a chance to save their characters life again.

All of the above being said, such actions are for the most part OOC niceties to other players. It is based upon the common understanding that everyone puts a large amount of time into their characters and no one likes dying and having all that time to be wasted. However, there are times when IC motivations and actions override OOC considerations. Assassinations are a prime example, but everyone who plays EfU needs to play with the understanding that it is a question of when, not if, but when their characters will die permanently. There is no character on this server that will live forever.

The thing is...

... PvP should be a win-win situation for both because it gave an intense moment where both sides had a fair chance of triumphing and that challenge alone makes it a worthwhile thing to have on the game-world...

...However! When PvP turns sour is when it is done wantonly and when you gain more in mechanical advantage (Consumeables) then you give out in entertainment to the losing party... You have to EARN in role-play, in entertainment, in fun-times, in challenges -whatever- you want to take away from the people you defeated...

If you loot someone of 50-75% of all his consumeables, make sure you made it fun for them... And this goes especially for evil-aligned characters, evil-aligned has to be the ethically strong players because they have to show mercy, most often, and expect to receive none. Just how it is.

But one question I would ask before -any- pvp is: Would you engage in PvP with no gain in consumeables -- no looting people? If so, that pvp may be worthwhile from a story-perspective, if you engage in PvP with a hint of increasing.. your consumeables size or whatever in the back of your head... just be careful! -- I'd lay down a guideline that you should simply break even and never 'gain' in your pvp's in terms of taking away stuff from others, So- if you use 10% of your equipment? Take 7-8% of theirs. (Sure if they permadied, it's a bit different matter but just a guideline from subdualing and giving people a sporting chance to get back in the game.)

This way, sure- they lost. Sure, they might feel bad about losing this fight, but they are still in good-shape having lost only a few.. things.. They aren't crippled and can still come back after you very quickly if you aren't careful! So both group had a good fight, entertainment and almost no lost... <-- Good win-win PvP experience!

The people I knew who would react like this made a lot more worthwhile to interact with them and just simply confront them, because I knew that whatever happened win or lose, I wouldn't be leaving with a sour taste in my mouth.

If you want to rp after the battle, then why not simply tell the dead characters to respawn?

And to answer another argument, if my character is ended, I don't give a rat's posterior about the rp. My character is gone, that what counts. I would be completely uninterested by whatever rp may occur between the moment I know he will die and the moment he goes to fugue.

That's just my feelings of course.

Once again, I reiterate. In my opinion, in a pitch battle, only those that never ‘died’ should be rewarded. If a PC went down, whether he was on the winning or losing side he should receive no XP and should be punished with the loss of XP of death. He could still be revived, but weaker. The winning side should have to decide weather they want to even bother reviving them, (they may want them to stay dead). With no FD in a war scenario this only happens to the losing side and unbalances the scales.

Questions: 1) If a PC went down in a pitch battle, IF or when he is revived, should he become stronger or weaker for ‘dieing’ in this combat? 2) If a PC went down in a pitch battle should the winning side not have to pay to revive those that fell? 3) Should those of the winning side not only get the loot from the losing side but also that of the dead from their side? (If they had something they wanted.) 4) Once the battle is over can a DM make a shout saying “All those that are dead but wish a chance to live, respawn now.”? (Which is when they can have their dieing scene.)

With no FD in pitch battles those that lived through the entire combat don’t get many choices. If it’s the leader of the winning side that went down it could very easily mean a new leader for that faction.

If I ever start hearing that the winning side had to cut their losses and spend the all of the loot of the losers to revive their dead, or maybe even take the head of a general or leader that fell in battle for being weak, maybe I’ll reconsider. But until then the balance is out of whack and I’ll be staying out of pitch battle PvP. Because the way it stands right now, with no FD, the winning side has everything to gain and nothing at all to lose.

Again though, in smaller PvP where only a couple PC’s are involved, the no FD actually accomplishes what you all are saying and I agree with it.

A few things:

1. You cannot respawn after being killed in PvP without a DM.

2. The winning side is always stronger after the battle. It is a simple matter to take the gold of your enemy and use it to raise the dead on your side.

3. In real life wars people don't normally die right away. In EfU, with the existence of magic, especially healing magic, saving those from the brink of death is very easy. I generally consider those who are subdued to be unconscious and slowly dying in such scenarios.

4. After the battle if someone from the winning side wanted someone who was subdued during the battle to die, they can kill them. It isn't that difficult to tell everyone that you'll "get the captain help", drag him away from the fray, realize that he isn't completely dead, then slit his throat. Alternatively, if it is your goal to take out someone on your side during battle and you see the opportunity - take it while still in the heat of battle.

5. If there are special circumstances that you plan to enact or want to try and make happen contact a DM before the battle takes place and let them know.

6. Unless a DM tells you otherwise, or agreed to OOCly beforehand, go straight up FD if thats how you want to roll. There is no rule that I am aware of that states you cannot FD people in war-like situations.

As a personal preference, I hate FDing people. I always feel shitty about it OOCly unless there was some major build up to it or I feel that it was a good death. Despite that, I've FDed my fair share of people on EfU, but as a personal preference (if the situation warrants it) I like to think of a way to keep the other person alive, if for no other reason than to grant them a few dying words, and if possible make clear why they are to die.

I like to think of a way to keep the other person alive, if for no other reason than to grant them a few dying words, and if possible make clear why they are to die.

Kyle Briar's Shadow sheds a tear

You were generous evil doer Meldread

WARNING - It seems I'm totally wrong in this post, and I'll leave this stupidity up as an object lesson to others to make sure your shit is straight before you bring it up.

------------------------------------------------------------

I have another recent incident I wanted to add to the discussion. I might be wrong on some details here, so feel free to correct me if you were there.

The very first PvP interaction between the Mithrilsoul dwarves and the Montezzis involved Ulgar Ulgarsson and Ronus Razenhour getting harassed as they walked through Lower. Which is totally good stuff, and a standard way to start conflict between factions.

After the RP, PvP and of course the beatdown of the dwarves, the members present of Team Montezzi took every piece of equipment from them, including plate mail armor, all gold, all consumables from both of them. Everything.

Ulgar got some of it back somehow, but I don't think Ronus got shit back. Not sure why.

On top of that, I THINK they were fugued then allowed to respawn, but I could be wrong on that one.

The player of Ronus, who was one of the most active in our faction, and a phenomenal RPer, was so discouraged by that experience, that he quit playing him. The task of earning back the XP and gold to replace everything was so daunting that he gave up. It simply took the fun out of it for him. We could have quickly replaced the gear and gold with our large numbers, but that wasn't the point.

Maybe some of you think, "tough shit." It's PvP in Lower, and EfU is supposed to be harsh. Montezzi are badazz muthas! But I think Mort is onto something as well, in considering the OOC feelings of the other player.

I don't want to point the finger at whoever did this to those two, but the fact remains, you broke the spirit of a player and it was not fun for them to be so completely crushed.

Some of you are great with mechanics. Once in arena style PvP, I had a character use a tanglefoot bag on my character after his successful taunt, which apparently lowers AC another 4 and knocks one out of Expertise? WTF? How many people know that crazy shit?

He also asked me via Tell if my character was evil after the duel, which confused me. He explained that his armor had a bonus vs. evil, so he wanted to know if it was in effect or not. :?

Having such superior knowledge of mechanics, which some of you have, gives a player "spiderman status". With great power, comes great responsibility. Gah, that's cheesy, but you get the point I hope.

Please don't take any of this personally if you were involved in these events. Team Montezzi is an awesome force, and is the type of thing EfU needed.

Some things to think about.

EDIT - Seems I got the story wrong, or my recollection of it is incorrect.

:oops:

I'll stfu for a while now. *and the DMs rejoiced*

^^ The above is referred to me xD

That incident is blatantly incorrect and glaring with errors, I seriously doubt I can find a sentence of truth in it. Not because I believe Gwydion is lying, but because how it was related to him was likely exaggerated. I think it may be better to keep specific incidents out, since they have all been exaggerated and generally incorrect.

Agreed with Trendy I was their and one of my previous chars even helped partake in it,

I also have to say that I remember Gwydion's mentioned experience incredibly differently.

I think I would argue recently some otherwise good players have been needlessly harsh as opposed to more creative in some recent pvp situations. Though, I suppose that seems to differ upon each instance I recall, and I'm probably guilty of making unreasonable judgment in certain places aswell.

Some of you are great with mechanics. Once in arena style PvP, I had a character use a tanglefoot bag on my character after his successful taunt, which apparently lowers AC another 4 and knocks one out of Expertise? WTF? How many people know that crazy shit?

He also asked me via Tell if my character was evil after the duel, which confused me. He explained that his armor had a bonus vs. evil, so he wanted to know if it was in effect or not. Confused

Thats what I was referring to.

Yes Relinquish.

You are great with mechanics.

I feel special.

The kind of thing that Gwydion is talking about below is what is making me and a couple of other people I converse with consider leaving the server entirely, and I could think of another 2-3 who have left or stopped playing characters for exactly the same thing - ever wondered where Dakul Ironbeard went, for instance (though there are other issues there, so don't get me wrong!)? We are NOT PvPers, but enjoy the RP and setting here. I'm not just talking about the loss of goods, either. 've come to the realization (it seems to have really just danwed on me) that to be REMOTELY effective in PvP requires an entirely different skillset than regular RPing and questing don't provide you with. As a result, CHARACTERS that should be able to mop the floor with you or at least hold their own can get pwned very quickly by PLAYERS whose characters are lower but whose whose PvP skills are higher. I equate it with some of the online games of BF 1942 I've played - there are guys out there whose skill is just phenomenal, but they look gimpy jumping and zigzagging from side to side as they bounce across the screen. Sort of takes the immersion out of it. In that game, I expect it since it's really about how good the PLAYER is. In NWN, it's supposed to be about the character's skills (yes, the player counts too, but in a much lesser way), but when it comes to PvP, player is everything.

On another server's boards, I read today that although they accept PvP, it is a standard courtesy to basically guard over the beaten down guy while he heals in an OOC manner to be sure some random spawn doesn't off him. Although perhaps a bit too OOC-goofy, the difference in that server's PvP attitude from EFU is quite clear.

I try to join factions that stay out of PvP conflict for those very reasons, but it seems to avoid it, I just need to avoid factions altogether since even among a non PvP faction (and nearly all the Mithrils are/were non PvP oriented), someone will bring it on anyway. Unfortunately, when your CHARACTER would fight the fight, you have to suck it up and prepare to be pwned even when because your character might be able to "take them", the real battle is between the players behind the scenes.

Gwydion I have another recent incident I wanted to add to the discussion. I might be wrong on some details here, so feel free to correct me if you were there.

The very first PvP interaction between the Mithrilsoul dwarves and the Montezzis involved Ulgar Ulgarsson and Ronus Razenhour getting harassed as they walked through Lower. Which is totally good stuff, and a standard way to start conflict between factions.

After the RP, PvP and of course the beatdown of the dwarves, the members present of Team Montezzi took every piece of equipment from them, including plate mail armor, all gold, all consumables from both of them. Everything.

Ulgar got some of it back somehow, but I don't think Ronus got shit back. Not sure why.

On top of that, I THINK they were fugued then allowed to respawn, but I could be wrong on that one.

The player of Ronus, who was one of the most active in our faction, and a phenomenal RPer, was so discouraged by that experience, that he quit playing him. The task of earning back the XP and gold to replace everything was so daunting that he gave up. It simply took the fun out of it for him. We could have quickly replaced the gear and gold with our large numbers, but that wasn't the point.

Maybe some of you think, "tough shit." It's PvP in Lower, and EfU is supposed to be harsh. Montezzi are badazz muthas! But I think Mort is onto something as well, in considering the OOC feelings of the other player.

I don't want to point the finger at whoever did this to those two, but the fact remains, you broke the spirit of a player and it was not fun for them to be so completely crushed.

Some of you are great with mechanics. Once in arena style PvP, I had a character use a tanglefoot bag on my character after his successful taunt, which apparently lowers AC another 4 and knocks one out of Expertise? WTF? How many people know that crazy shit?

He also asked me via Tell if my character was evil after the duel, which confused me. He explained that his armor had a bonus vs. evil, so he wanted to know if it was in effect or not. :?

Having such superior knowledge of mechanics, which some of you have, gives a player "spiderman status". With great power, comes great responsibility. Gah, that's cheesy, but you get the point I hope.

Please don't take any of this personally if you were involved in these events. Team Montezzi is an awesome force, and is the type of thing EfU needed.

Some things to think about.

Because Gwydion has made that post, and Trendy has alluded to the false nature of it, I will set the record straight, though Trendy does a good job of politely doing so himself.

The incident did not occur in any way, shape or form the way Gwydion described it.

Ronus and Ulgar came into Lower specifically looking for a fight with the Montezzi, as Ulgar made perfectly clear by insulting them the moment he saw them. In fact, Ulgar made the first hostile action!

After they were beat down (and I say beat down, as neither one were killed), from them their gold and weapons were taken. That is it. They were not full looted, nor killed, nor lit aflame. These things simply didn't happen! Ronus and Ulgar were given multiple opportunities to both avoid conflict, and avoid having any of their things taken. The PvP that occurred here was actually a good example of how PvP should go, with no FD, and only mild loss to the Dwarves involved.

Anyway, simply letting everyone know how that really occurred.

These threads always arise when people die in PvP.

They consist of players on the losing side of the PvP to make all kinds of absolutely ridiculous claims and assumptions in the public forum about the nature of the server and the intentions of members of its playerbase, even going so far as to publicly question the ethics of certain players despite the correct channel to air concerns over such matters being through the DM email, as stated a hundred times before.

These sulks contrive all manner of wonderful reasons why their particular death was unfair or how the server atmosphere is now one of PvP rather than RP, completely ignoring the achievements and focus of a huge amount of awesome characters and misunderstanding the real dynamics of the server in general.

While its pretty interesting to see what new fables people can contrive or how eloquently they can call others cheaters, I think the best thing would be for these people to grow up. Yes, I said it. While I certainly do not want to see people drift away from EFU, the fact of the matter is that if you're here despite hating it -and reflexively creating an atmosphere of general negativity and poisonous misconceptions- you should just leave. If you like the server though but have gripes, contact us individually and we can go from there. We appreciate honestly people who do this.

EfU is a fantasy story-telling server, and PvP is a part of that. It is also one in which the ending is not scripted.

Think of every good fantasy/heroic fiction book, play, movie, etc. At some point there is generally fighting between different characters. Sometimes this takes the form of an epic duel, a huge battle, a cowardly assassination attempt, a brawl, whatever. Stories without these things probably would not capture the attention of the audience. In EfU, we have this too. It is a part of the game.

And yes, there is some skill to it. But it is not remotely equivalent to a FPS. I do firmly believe that with a little practice and effort anyone can get to be perfectly competent at PvP. And besides, RP factors into PvP much more than just arena-server whatever (i.e. does your character have a code, did he bring allies, is he catching the enemy when he's naked in the bath, whatever).

Anyway, I recognize some otherwise excellent players just don't like PvP and want to avoid it entirely. That's cool with me. I think you're missing out on a tremendous amount of excitement and fun, but there's a place in EfU for you if you enjoy playing here. I don't think it's particularly hard to avoid PvP if you want, but it may from time to time require a little bit of an IC concession like not playing a stubborn, unyielding hero.

Generally everything I've seen or heard about recently seems in line with what's always happened in EfU, the difference is that it has involved large blocks of players who just in the past have missed out on most of such action.

56 posts, over one thousand views..mission accomplished, discussion has ensued. Some of it was ranty, but meh, were all artists in our own right, have to be to play here. With Howland's post, a perfect end to the discussion.

Formerly requesting a lock.