I have stepped out of Kiaring’s post, for fear of derailing it. But reading Kiaring, Oro’s and Panama’s words inspired a sense of deja vu. For I am struggling in a similar fashion.

I have read other peoples helpful hints and advice on how Kiaring can overcome her difficulties. Honestly Kiaring doesn’t lack the capacity, ingenuity or talent to make these things happen. I have had the honour of playing next to, opposed to and around several of her characters over the ages, and her characters are interesting, motivated and edgy almost without exception.

So I don’t think that Kiaring is at all to blame, I am more from the Panama school of thought: “I feel like the game has become more static then it used to be”. I would like to be as positive as Panama and attribute this to my own change of perspective - the length I have been playing, the familiarity of the game world etc. But I cannot. I honestly think a significant portion of the responsibility lies with the ‘second wave’ of EfU DMs. I think the server has taken a shift for the worse in ways that make it harder to do awesome, server rocking things.

The ‘first wave’ of DMs were eager to squeeze every last drop of creative talent out of their players. They actively sought out the goals and dreams of players and went out of their way to make them possible. If you had an idea, it was almost certainly doable if you showed some pluck and verve. I didn’t need to be server-rocking awesome in a big way (say replacing Azzam with a kobold president), it could be awesome in a practically insignificant way (like breeding rats in an obscure corner of the sewers), but it was a good idea, and usually even if it wasn’t, the DM’d wanted to make it happen. I suspect they wanted to make it happen because encouraging creativity sponsored more spontaneous creativity from the player base.

It also made the server feel alive in a way no other online server has even been. The world was constantly changing from the moves and plays of the PCs within it.

I cannot but feel that this initial DM culture of nurture and support has been slowly extinguished. The ‘second wave’ of DMs have less desire to engage players in a challenge of creative possibilities, and have replaced this rapport with an Us/Them and Perform/Reward dialectic. By this I mean that the standard PC to DM relation is now much more power imbalanced, it feels more like children performing to please adults than a cooperative storytelling exercise.

This is very noticeable in terms of DM recognition. If you do roll up something pretty fly, the DM’s do of course take notice. Next thing you know you have a tangential DM quest and your very own piece of customised loot. Where as once your creativity was rewarded by the change in the game world and the NPC’s within it, now you get a ring with a bonus to search. Frankly I would pile all my customised loot in a big IG fire and burn it for the chance to sell my soul to one measly quasi-demon, or better yet, just get an NPC to publicly write a letter supporting an idea a character I rolled has espoused. What I really want is for NPCs to come alive, not just to answer some question in three terse lines, but to initiate their own actions and plays, to respond to the players in an interesting and in depth fashion. Spending time making custom loot and quests takes time away from what made the server great in the first place – a rich and in depth world filled with engrossing characters and complex factions.

Oro: “I've not felt like my PCs can get things accomplished or influence much at all.” Kia “finding things excessively static for one reason or another, or obstacles that present themselves again and again (not necessarily the same, or in the same form) and stop their characters from succeeding.”

Oh yes, yes and double yes. This is part of the change, to my eye. Once if you had a nifty character and a set of goals then the sky was your limit. This is not to say that everything was easy or laid out on a silver platter, it’s just that anything was theoretically possible. You had big dreams, you just needed to spend more time, gold and people to work towards it. Now I feel that the standard is to throw up endless hoops to jump through for the smallest change, and that the standard DM response, both IC and OOC, is ‘no’ not ‘yes’. For a quick demonstration of this, if you have a character in a long term, formative faction, spend half an hour reading the current DM posts in the forum, then page back to the start and read half an hour there. There is a vivid change in style.

As a final point, every once in a while a character does come along and make me reconsider. They rock the server, shifting paradigms and turning established notions on their heads. I am impressed and inspired… right up until the point I inevitably realise the character was played by a DM all along.

I acknowledge I am going to rub some folk the wrong way with this post, and I apologise. Obviously there have been some great DMs in the last few years. But I do wish to express my opinion, not least in hope that the recent crop of new DM’s, the ‘third wave’, can create their own DM culture, different and perhaps more progressive than those of the recent past.

Hmm... I've probably not been about long enough to know what the heck I'm talking about, but I'm going to talk anyways. Dangerous! From what I've seen, the DMs here are very helpful and extremely understanding. I saw things happen in the Mithrilsoul faction I never thought were possible to accomplish in such a short period of time. Then again, we had Gwydion at the helm! I hate to sing the old song, but if you get people and RP behind an idea, the DMs will run with it. Really!

I'm just surprised that this critique is coming right now. I mean, the server has changed more due to PC actions in the past month than it has in a long time, all due to PC ideas and DMs supporting sweet server-changing possibilities!

As always, if you have a sweet idea for a plot, or would like to discuss the direction your character's plans are headed, send an e-mail to the DM squad (escapefromunderdark@gmail.com), or PM me or another DM directly.

Yeah, can't say I agree with that at all. As a new convert from somewhere else, EfU seems like a paradise of DM involvement and support.

Just to start, it makes me uneasy that you feel like you must be anonymous in this posting. I do not want people to feel like they cannot criticize the methods we use or the gameworld. We had lots of criticisms at the start -- I would know, I made quite a few! Without them, we cannot develop. Either way, thank you for coming out candidly. Far too often we receive caustic criticisms, which doesn't seem to help anyone.

Anyway, I'm going to echo SongOfOrpheus. My focus as a DM is this: Run small-time DM quests, help player efforts. I don't run major metafactions, nor do I run quest plots for DM factions. As a player, what I enjoyed most was making my mark on Sanctuary and the surrounding Underdark, which is an opportunity I'm hoping to offer you guys.

When I log in, I look for characters who roleplay tastefully, who have initiative, a goal, or something. Sometimes this is easier to find in certain characters than others, so I have a tendency to overlook the quieter folks, many times because I do not know what to give them.

I've assisted many player factions. Lower gangs (Lower Loons!) and the Montezzi's come to mind. The point I'm making is that we have always advocated change in EfU from a player perspective. I think the problem that you, and other players are having, is that they're having trouble grabbing the attention of a DM who wants to focus on player efforts. We tend to assist players who attract and interact with other players the most. The way I think of it is if I help that player, I am in turn helping many, many more. However, I know not everyone is looking forward to being the Prom King or Queen of the game. I've thought about different ways of allowing players to make it abundantly clear to us what they're hoping to accomplish. Until I can come up with something that may have lots of stuff on the technical side, I advise those players who are having trouble with their PC efforts to contact a DM, send in an application, or DO SOMETHING to let us know.

Last note, when I say DM assistance, I do mean assistance. Many, many people have approached me with excellent ideas that require me to work hard in the toolset and in the client. Those are ideas I'm not willing to work on. Frankly, I'm very busy! I (and many other DMs) do not spend too much time playing EfU to start, and when we log in we cannot put too much effort appealing to one group of people, since ideally we want to involve everybody. If a player wants something small done that can help them accomplish bigger things, we're likely to help.

I hope that helps!

I don't think Kiaring's original post was about how to illicit DM attention. This one appears to be.

From what I understand, it appears to be about how in the old days you could have an idea about changing the server, and would find responsive NPCs, but nowadays that isn't the case.

Certainly, I DM much less than I used to. So maybe I am out of touch.

However, I am honestly and sincerely searching for examples of where players are trying to do something awesome and being blocked by a lack of DM responsiveness.

Our "factions" are a very minor subset of the server, however I'm not seeing this change you are refering to by and large. The exception would be the Town Council, where from the very earliest days of the server we've struggled to maintain both player and DM interest in the votes/discussions that went on. Certainly the Council has been a problem, and I'm receptive to ideas for how it could be improved, but I'm not sure that's what at issue here.

A point I'd raise, and think of this what you will, is that it is the playerbase that sets the tone of the server. If you want to accomplish something, then generally you need to do it through your RP/interactions with the playerbase. The DM team are the referees, but it's not us you need to cater to, it's the rest of the playerbase. The DM team doesn't decide who gets to accomplish things, or who is successful, the way characters interact do.

As an example, even when there might be a Player Faction we weren't huge fans of, if they were active and numerous and involving and "visible" we generally have supported them. So even if you think the DM team are a bunch of grumpy misanthropes who don't want to do anything nice for you, then prove us wrong by being so awesome in your RP that you accomplish <desired thing> with your RP, and we practically can't say no to whatever you really do need our help with.

Also, another point I'd make is that it's difficult to come up with a good goal. Goals that can be accomplished without DMs are the best ones. Something where it's just you and a DM will often just lead to frustration, since our server isn't set up that way.

I certainly appreciate any thoughtful critique of EfU, and I'd welcome the original poster to come speak with me privately about these and other issues. I find it alarming that any player in EfU feels that it's necessary to go to elaborate efforts to mask their identity from the DMs just because they had some thoughts they wished to share.

At any rate, it's hard for me to argue against this critique without examples of where the DMs have dropped the ball.

I don't think this poster is as off base as you might think. I hate to get into another "the old days" argument, but I'll just add something I've spoken about before. NPC involvement is definitely not the same as it was. Much of this has to do with a larger player base, I'm sure. DM's are busy people. I know that half of what you end up doing logged in is dealing with characters who have OOC complaints/issues/bugs etc. It was not unusual at the onset though to see Bhast or Colivin or any influential NPC just walking around town, shooting the shit, so to speak, with any who happened to pass by. Or even just regular citizen possessions, who might shout some asinine thing and run off. These kinds of things made the world feel alive and are extremely rare these days. They probably won't come back either. The ratio of DM's to PC's just isn't the same. Used to be a group of five or so people was pretty much guaranteed to have a DM with them, that's just not going to happen anymore.

I think there is folly in pointing to the major changes that are going on of late as proof that this post is ridiculous. Those changes would have never come about without your support, but for every major change that happens, there are probably 30 players that could use some smaller levels of support. Not everyone wants to be a part of those meta plots that get 90% of the attention these days, some people do just want to become friends with Grizzabella or Hans the butcher. The one suggestion I can make to these kinds of people is to -use the forums-. The forums are where you get the NPC's attention these days. Yes, its not the same as it was, but take what you can get.

DMs! You guys are great and we love you. You spend so much time making the game fun for us, doing things that are often not so fun for you. Thank you for this! Whether you are first generation or third or whatever, you make this server worth playing on and I hope you don't take any of this as a knock on how much we appreciate you.

The last thing I want to add though is this: leave this poster alone. If he/she wants to be anonymous, don't make him/her feel guilty about it. From the sounds of it, its obviously a vet who knows the score and has his/her reasons for hiding in the shadows.

You are never going to be able to change who a DM is and what he does, at his core. Yes, he can improved drastically and grow into his position, but for most DMs, their overall mentality does not change.

This isn't an insult or a bad thing; it's simple fact. The server changes; new DMs come and old DMs go. Change with it or get left behind. This isn't a bad thing, either; the majority of the playerbase seems quite happy with a changing gameworld. It's often the tendency of "veteran" players-who become smaller in number as time goes on-to become disgruntled when the server changes and they're left playing a gameworld circa 2006.

It's the nature of an entity with a revolving DM staff and a rapidly-changing and evolving playerbase to change; you can hold on to past glories and lament that you can't ever be as awesome as you once were, or you may try to simply have fun in this server as it is now and perhaps-just perhaps-find your awesome once again.

-SI

While I'm here, let me make one more point.

EfU is a multiplayer game. Not only is it a multiplayer game, it's a free-access multiplayer game. This means that anyone who wants to log in can come in and play. What does this mean? It means that the same people cannot continue to dominate the server and act as kings of the roost all the time. Why? Because then new players would never get a chance to have the same awesome, server-changing and widely-influential experiences you had with your past characters.

There are five Council seats. There's one, maybe two, Lieutenant postings in the Watch. There's one Sheriff. If the same players repeatedly occupied those postings with each new character they made, it'd be incredibly distressing for any other players trying to make waves, wouldn't it? Admittedly, this is an over-simplified example; but the point remains.

Now, listen very closely. I'm going to repeat an old adage that's very important!

You can't always win.

You can't expect every character you make to be the equal of your "best" in terms of popularity, influence, and DM interaction. You can't expect to always be able to rock the server as one of its shining stars. You're not playing this game alone, and you are playing this game with other people, many of them fresher and newer players. If your own stars always kept glaring, theirs would never be able to rise.

And yes, certainly plenty of older players do manage to remain relevant and continue to pump out impressive PCs. Numerous players have had multiple characters on the Council, in the same faction, et cetera. I'm of the belief, however-and I believe that they will likely bear this out-that they don't make every character with the intent of becoming a dominant force in the gameworld, and that they are often quite content at times to play a quieter, background figure. Nor do they keep tracking the same tack with all of their characters-when they do rise to the top again, it's often in a vastly different position.

In the end, however, this is all pointless. It's all been said before, and those of you who disagree with me will protest vehemently that I'm incorrect and inane, and then chuckle about it in PMs via IRC. Why bother, then, if none of this matters, and I'll never be able to change anyone's mind?

I don't know. Maybe I just find it fun and amusing!

-SI

[will revise later!]

I was actually going to make a very similar post to this though on a slightly different subject, But I figured that openly criticising the DMs is sort of a low blow.

I PMed one of them, and at least five DMs sat down and adressed each of my concerns. In cases like this, its really better to just take it directly to them rather than make a big public fuss about it.

They adressed most/all of my concerns, giving examples of why I didnt need to be as stressed as I was. As a player, I only know what I see and what I am told OOCly. But player perspective is alot different from DM perspective. I dont know exactly what other people are getting, or why they are getting it. It turned out half of the information I was stressing over was incorrect anyways.

Just go with the flow dudes, and if you have a problem dont make a big splash. Just dive in and send the DMs a PM with what's up.

IMO, big posts like this just cause more stress, for Dms and players.

Or you could just be thankful you have the talent to rock the server at any given time. I haven't been here as long as many of you, my typing sucks air from flat tires, making my rp near pathetic. I have actually improved my typing skills to a small degree since I started playing here, so that I can at least rp one on one and not put anyone to sleep. In a group, I just as well sit on my hands because I am so damn slow. I don't plan on rocking the server with any earth shaking PC's, I just plan to have fun. Go with what you know and if you get noticed fine, if not, don't let it bother you so much. After all, it is still a game, isn't it? I've had times when I got a bit frustrated because I couldn't find a DM for something I wanted to do, But I also realize, I could not do what they are doing, and when they are on, it isn't just me but thirty others asking for things at the same time. I also think that if all of us, as players, sat in as a DM for one event, or even as an observer, we would change the way we look at things. Just my three cents, what with inflation and all.

Too true, Cruzel.

just as a point:

I have played, and later DM'ed a server where the DM to player ratio was about 7 players to 1 DM. The NPC's were alive, any sembiance of a plot was given huge attention etc.

But the players were dull as hell.

The NPC's were more interesting then the other players. Groups of more then 2 were non-existent. The people got lazy and uncreative, and in the end, It was just "sit back and watch".

I left that server, because, while with a single PC i could change the entire game, There was little satisfaction to it.

In efu I have yet to change anything. Get a single piece of loot, or even get a DM quest. But you know what? Im not angry at all about it. Because, Dispite the fact that my characters die young, they make a splash in the -player base-.

Voric pissed off every paladin on the server. Garin managed to nearly cause his opponent to jump off a cliff, Heliah converted 7 people to bane.

Your not playing with the DM's, your playing with the players. Its great, neigh, fantastic when you get some DM attention, but it isn't the lifeblood of the server.

Just because you didn't have any effect on the Npc's doesn't mean you didnt effect the PC's, and -that- should be your goal.

Firstly let me apologise for concealing my identity. It is not something I wanted to do, but I have found I didn't have the guts to speak up under my own name. I was also worried that people would judge my text by my name, not by my content. Alos, trying to make a positive criticism is hard, really hard. I feel like a heretic and a traitor for speaking out, but I do so only because I have the best interests of the server at heart, not because I want to join a flame war or harass DMs. I also don’t want to be bugged by the server sycophants who dislike the idea of DMs copping any flak. (I think this is in part due to the aforementioned Perform/Reward mentality so prevalent at the moment, they feel they need to support the DMs OOC in the hope they will be rewarded IC).

Let me just make clear that I love EfU. It is one of my favourite pastimes. I like the DM team, I like the players. This does not mean, however, that the best thing I can do to support EfU is sit down, shut up and love the server exactly how it is.

dragonfire9000: From what I've seen, the DMs here are very helpful and extremely understanding.

Yes they are. No argument here. I hope I didn't imply they weren't in my post. All the DMs are invariably helpful, some (like Snoteye) seem to have turned being helpful into a full time job. All kudos to them. Perhaps the confusion came from me saying DMs now say ‘no’ not ‘yes’? I meant this within the specific context of server change and reaction, not in a wider sense.

SoO: I’m just surprised that this critique is coming right now. I mean, the server has changed more due to PC actions in the past month than it has in a long time, all due to PC ideas and DMs supporting sweet server-changing possibilities!

So let’s talk Montezzi. The Montezzi’s players have done a splendid job, no doubts. They have got lots of players interested and all props to them. But what have they got for their work? A bunch of custom loot, four beggars and a throne. Sure they have changed the server, but it has been server policy for a while that any old mook and his gang (though I am not suggesting Koa and Charm are mooks) can clean up a faction or seven (cf. Tigereyes, Nancies, New Dunwarren, Goblin Town etc etc). So yes, Hoar is gone, the Seekers are relocated, but I just don’t think that the game world is responding to them in as interesting or complex a fashion as it could. They have got some rewards for doing the ‘right things’, but they are still within the same perform/reward framework.

Sterhund: I think the problem that you, and other players are having, is that they're having trouble grabbing the attention of a DM who wants to focus on player efforts. Howland: I don't think Kiaring's original post was about how to illicit DM attention. This one appears to be.

Not really. As I said, it is less to do with DM attention, more about what they do when they focus on a player. I feel I get exactly as much attention as I should, invariably based on how nifty my current PC happens to be.

Which leads to Sterhund: Many, many people have approached me with excellent ideas that require me to work hard in the toolset and in the client. Those are ideas I'm not willing to work on. Frankly, I'm very busy!

I certainly don’t think the DMs are slackers, I know they spend a lot of time behind the keyboard. I don't expect nor wish the DMs spend any more time or effort than they currently do. It is a question of what is done with that time. As I mentioned, players get rewarded for awesomeness with custom quests (often lavish, inventive and complex) and custom loot (ditto). If that is what the DM’s like doing, and clearly it is since they are doing it, all power to them. But for my two cents worth I think it’s more fun if you spend that same time/effort enriching the game world.

Howland: The DM team are the referees, but it's not us you need to cater to, it's the rest of the playerbase.

Here I think you do yourself a grave dishonour, sir. I have had the privilege of being a main or bit player in a few of your stories, and they invariably top notch. Calling yourself and your colleagues referees demeans your practice. Yes, you might have to adjudicate at times, but that does not encompass the artistic/creative element of DMing. Would you call Tolstoy an umpire, or Bach a good linesman? You are participating in an art form, albeit one far divulged from contemporary populist art theory. I get the feeling that the whole ‘all initiation is PC initiation and all storytelling is PC storytelling’ line has been thrown up to stop whinging players begging for DM time and energy. However I fear that maybe the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, you have reimaged yourselves as distant mediators, not participants, and that change is reflected in your style.

Starry Ice: listen very closely….

I listened and if I understood you correctly you are saying I am an old fashioned, untalented show pony, now embittered by my inability to “dominate” the server whilst suffering from an failure to comprehend the complexities of a labile player base? Sure dude, whatever floats your boat.

Cruzel: Just go with the flow dudes, and if you have a problem don’t make a big splash. Just dive in and send the DMs a PM with what's up.

Fair point, but there are two reasons why I haven’t. A) I get nervous critiquing people to their face, and I fear I would just end up mumbling an apology and backing out and B) I am interested in player input as well as DM.

I clearly didn’t do a great job with my original post, people have taken it places I didn’t mean it to go. Really I want to make two similar but different points. The first is that the DMs are not manipulating the game world as excitingly as once they did. On this topic Oro read my mind and made my thoughts coherent (in his response to the original post): (https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/37/37719/looking-for-input/index.html?amp;postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) Nicely put Oro, although I will say respect the right for DM’s to PC at their leisure. Most of the current DMs were/still are amongst my favourite players, and I would miss them if they stopped.

The second point is that player/DM reactions now feel less like two storytellers, locked in an epic struggle to out amaze the other with creative talent; and are now more like a performer and a reward giver - an unbalanced power relationship. This isn’t a plea for me to get more DM attention, or more rewards, rather I am critiquing the whole discourse of reward gaming.

Normally, I probably would not post in such a thread. However, as a DM I feel it is my responsibility to weigh in, here.

I will start by saying that I like the second post of yours, efuconcealedaccounts, far better than the first one. Not only is it far less inflamatory and degrading to "second wave" DMs, as you coined them, but I feel that it does a better job of proposing solutions while respecting that the DMs are trying quite hard to cater to many people!

That said, I still am disappointed that you feel the need to conceal yourself. Whilst your concern at not wishing to have the player base respond poorly to your criticism (it is unfortunately so that some people feel that the best way to get in well with us is to lambaste those who would speak against us)is valid, I am still sad that you would not come speak to us privately, bluntly, under whatever moniker it is we know you by. I can assure you that if you do so, you will meet with no animosity from our side! It is always been the case, at least in my own mind, that the best way to serve EfU is similar to the way in which one fosters a democracy. That is, to be a diligent watchdog who speaks up bluntly at percieved issues in a respectful, constructive manner.

Onto the issues, then. I think that some of the issue here may be a lack of complete knowledge (Yes, this is an old DM standby, but is invariably true). For instance, with the Montezzi situation I would say that the NPC's have reacted in a variety of ways, and in fully realistic ways, and in some instances, server altering ways. Things like scripted rumors, active NPC alliances and enemies, and a variety of DM support for various issues are all evidence of their ability to impact the game world, while in actuality, the amount of their custom loot can be counted probably on ones hands, amongst a faction of 20 people.

I will however, concede, that the way in which the server operates is vastly different than it did at it's inception. The reasons for this are numerous, and have been mostly espoused already. Things like an increase in players, a shift in the personalities and free time of DMs, and in many cases, the desires of the players. Many players are unhappy to see vast changes to the server inacted with little effort, while others wish to see a 100% malleable setting stocked with NPC's who are jumping at the bit to get your agenda pushed. I think that the best solution, is somewhere in the middle, wherein change is possible, but requires clear, intelligent effort.

While some of these things may have waned in the last year or so, it is simply to be expected that a server will go through phases, and notably be subject to the whims of 'nostalgia'. In my time on NWN, it has been my experience that nostalgia is king, and all previous days were better than the present. However, having been in the NWN community for nigh on four years, I can say that we have not been in a constant downward spiral! That is not to say you are saying such, efuconcealedaccount.

I can say that a lot of DMs are becoming increasingly interested in recreating the dynamic, highly shifting, player driven but DM supported setting. I encourage anyone who feels that they have either an issue such as the ones put forward by efuconcealedaccounts, or ideas for changes, or just ideas for fun things that they'd like to see happen, to approach the DMs. In particular, this is exactly the sort of thing I am looking to handle as a DM.

As a closing comment, I extend an invitation to efuconcealedaccount to speak to me privately free of the fear of reprisal. I feel that this sort of secrecy is really just detrimental to the nature of the community as a whole. We, as DMs, do not keep a list of "agitators" wherein we toss the names of all who speak against us. On the contrary, it has always been (at least my own) opinion that this sort of constructive criticism is what is necessary to keep the server on track.

I listened and if I understood you correctly you are saying I am an old fashioned, untalented show pony, now embittered by my inability to “dominate” the server whilst suffering from an failure to comprehend the complexities of a labile player base? Sure dude, whatever floats your boat.

This line deserves some hated custom loot IMO

For what it's worth, I agree with concealedefuaccount about DMs responding to things in less interesting ways. There was a time when everytime something big happened on the server, there'd be a big upset, and then the next day or the next few days, the the NPCs and the Factions would come out and declare how they would respond, and, for me, the responses were probably the coolest things to come of the whole situation.

I'm not, however convinced that this change is entirely the fault of the DMs.

The probable reason that no major declarations are made in response to upsets anymore is that there are no NPCs to respond. Simms is still hiding in his tower. Bresley's dead. Bhast's dead. There are no NPCs on the Council, Azzam's hiding too. No influential NPC personalities in charge of organizations - in fact, there aren't any visible organizations left alive, because the visible ones always DIE. Though it's been going this way for a while now, and it seems like maybe the DM team has partly forgotten either how to react, or forgotten to get together and discuss reactions at all.

I think this is pretty much what the others were saying - and I myself didn't realize it til now that I've finished typing.

There is a little catch 22 there. People LOVE being the WINNER who takes down a big NPC -- people enjoy killing npcs. However, people complain when suddenly an NPC shows up out of nowhere to replace or fill the gap left behind by the now dead NPC. So if that's the case, we should let people kill NPCs and not replace them ever. However, when that happens, people complain because now there aren't any more NPCs to kill.

I guess you just set a dangerous precedent when you guys killed Colivin!

No, really, i get that. It is a horrible double standard, and a total crapfest that you guys are contending with here, because you've done so well by us for so long that you've dug yourself into a hole. It happens. Just remember that there are tons and tons of ways that new NPCs can show up without just suddenly waking up one day and saying there's a new Mayor.

Slaves are always arriving in Sanctuary. The benefit of being DMs is you can bring new people into the city with fresh perspectives who don't necessarily have to be Level 2. Not that level is even relevant to the problem.

The problem with NPC councillors popping up is that they never campaign. As long as we can see NPCs before they show up on the podium, and have some idea of who they are, what they represent, or where they came from, we'll react far better to them than we would if they got on the council without a single player knowing of them.

I know that I would positively love to see even some entirely new factions. They needn't start out as super-established, and we all know that wouldn't work out well. But NPCs putting forth initiatives that players can grab onto and then start put forth their own efforts.

Even a fledgling mercenary corps could potentially be great fun. It needn't be anything grander than the Society of the Ordered Mind. - a building with beds, maybe a storage chest, and a purpose that its members can go out and do on a regular basis. The top reason I've ever seen that mercenary corps fail as PC initiatives on EfU is their leader dying. A stable NPC Merc leader with an interesting personality/history who didn't have a habit of getting bored and quitting would allow players to come and go from the company and have no more benefit than some colored armor and a reputation to uphold would, I believe, create a great deal of interest.

It's an enormous pain in the ass for PCs to start something like that. It's a pain when they drop off the map for everyone who got interested and involved. And while a DM doing it would be easy, it doesn't really hurt anybody. Nobody is being kept from joining the Council for weeks while waiting for someone (hopefully the NPC who nobody knows) to die, so they can get the spot they earned.

ExileStrife There is a little catch 22 there. People LOVE being the WINNER who takes down a big NPC -- people enjoy killing npcs. However, people complain when suddenly an NPC shows up out of nowhere to replace or fill the gap left behind by the now dead NPC. So if that's the case, we should let people kill NPCs and not replace them ever. However, when that happens, people complain because now there aren't any more NPCs to kill.

That is a problem of implementation then. Many NPCs seem to appear with out anyone complaining. Some seem to appear too suddenly, with too much clout, and yes out of no where--but all NPCs come from someplace.

Without knowing all the details, I could hazard some guesses as to solutions.

I'm sure with all the details the DMs have, they can figure out some of the reasons and overcome this problem. It hardly should be a catch-22 for you all.

Did the NPCs that elicite complaints appear all of a sudden, with a huge following of NPC supporters? Or did they gradually gain power, slowly recruiting PCs to help their efforts?

Did the NPCs appear suddenly to fill a void DMs felt was on the server? Or in a period where a power vacuum existed, did an NPC slowly rise to try to fill that void with a strong possibility PC could make him fail before he even got that far--and did he rely or use some PCs to get that far?

There's many more angles to look at, and I'm not wanting to sound like I have all the answers since I surely don't; but I do tend to think that the NPCs that get complaints are the ones that felt pushed and dropped in the module, rather than the ones that felt organically grown for my part.

That's my two cents.

For my part, I don't think I've ever complained about the sudden appearence of a powerful NPC. I think its totally cool when that happens. And since I am the only person that matters, I say keep doing it! They don't even have to come from anywhere, they could have been there all along just not in the public eye. The thing I think that can be bothersome for some is not that they show up in those senarios, but that they sometimes don't do much afterwards other then occupy space. When they do more then that, it usually yields positive results.

Positive thinking, positive results. Much love had by all.

I do not think powerful NPCs is the problem, but more how they became powerful. Azzam was L6 when he first started, became L10 as the commander of the watch, and is now L16. It's cool, but I think personally it would've been better if he remained the same level, or only gained a few. Appearance of new NPCs which are powerful is different than making current NPCs more powerful, because it does not have a lot of context. For example, making Hastian a L20 dunk mayor of Sanctuary (PRC) would not make much sense!

On that note, NPCs do not need to be high level to be powerful. Bhast was like, L4, in the beginning, but was amazingly powerful politically. In the same case, not all 'powerful' NPCs need to be powerful build wise. I remember Bhast always having two shadow shielded spellguard agents next to him to make up for his weakness. Such could happen with others! For example, Joe the Watch supporter who gets two deputies following him around, or DangerousDan the Seeker (doesn't matter his level, he'd die no matter what you did) with two burly seeker bodyguard staring you down.

Just some random stuff.

FWIW, do not take an NPC's level (or, for that matter, their build) to be representative of said NPC's supposed (political) power. Some NPCs are given levels for entirely OOC purposes -- right now, there's a level 9 monk with magic gloves in Lower who keeps the Red Skull ghosts from causing havoc. Azzam was given extra levels because he was, frankly, a pushover, and there are even Sergeant NPCs who were level 11 long before that. The six-levels-out-of-nowhere were not meant to suggest that a night in the bunk with his sassy Bedine lass had somehow restored a long lost strength.

It is -very- time and energy consuming to "slowly make an NPC rise to power." In the ideal world, one could argue it should take the same amount of time as any PC would take to rise up, and honestly that appeals to me. However, and I think it is pretty obvious, it is impossible to do that time and time again.

That said, we already do our best to work at the middle ground between "slow rise" and "spontaneous arrival," but even then, its important to realize it takes a tremendous amount of time, planning, coordination, and effort.

(And yes, it's also important to note that the levels you happen to see on the login screen mean absolutely nothing. They are not even true indicators to mechanical toughness [there are some level 15 pushovers and level 3 houses of pain]. We set certain levels on creatures and NPCs for so many different reasons that it's best just to consider them arbitrary.)

Concealed,

I get the gist of your post, and appreciate the time you've put into your constructive criticism. I'm willing to re-evaluate how I reward PC's I see rocking out. Perhaps you're right, perhaps NPC support is more worthwhile to invest our DM time into, rather than offering players loot and quests. I'm of the opinion that NPC support + Loot + Quests working together in harmony is the best, and most ideal way to reward a PC.

On a personal level, it's disappointing you felt you had to go to such extensive lengths to conceal your identity.

Second Wave DM

Call Sign: sherry

wcsherry

Second Wave DM

Call Sign: sherry

Ok, I need to figure this out. First wave? Second Wave?

Looking at the DM staff, If Sherry qualifies as second wave that means that pretty much all the active DM's are "second wave".

I might be too new to be able to see waves or tides of DM's, but in my time here it seems to be a pretty steady flow of new/retiring DM's.

(Edit: wow, coming fast up on a full year. Ive been here longer then I thought. o.O)