Ok, between classes now so I'll try to make this quick but understandable.

I play Kara, a paladin of Ilmater. A chance came for her to do the Temple of Hoar quest, but there was a slightly evil character who was going with the group. Paladins I know are not supposed to work with evil characters. But would the fact that undead are involved affect that? Also, following the dogma of Ilmater, followers should help all who hurt and stick to their cause if right.

So I guess my question is, does the code of not working with evil characters universally apply at all times or is it situational? (While not having to worry about alignment shifts). Does one code always override the other?

Any feedback is appreciated.

That's the dilemma of being a paladin.

What if that evil person learned something important in that temple - say, found a tome of necromancy and decided to keep it to himself, later constituting an even greater evil? Possibilities like that are why paladins are not supposed to work with evil people - if they really are evil, then their motivations to go with you into that temple are very possibly evil as well. If following your code would be entirely situational, it wouldn't be a code anymore and you'd be Neutral Good or Chaotic Good instead. Such individuals can, unlike the paladin, sometimes cause more harm than good with their actions since they believe (Chaotic more so than Neutral) that the end can justify the means.

Then again, it's obvious that there are extreme cases where it would be everything but Good to not do something with that evil person. What if it turned out that since you did not cleanse that temple of the undead, the necromancers responsible later managed to form a large enough horde of the creatures to pose a significant threat to Sanctuary? Possibilities like that are why a paladin needs to constantly weigh the results that not only doing something, but not doing something could cause. If you repeatedly let your judgement fail in such situations, following your code to the letter while blindfolding yourself to the situation at hand, you'd be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil and not Lawful Good.

And they say playing a paladin is easy? :roll:

Also, one might keep in mind that, to my recollection, evil has never meant being a complete and total black hearted sadistic physcopath bent on annihilation of all mankind!, but from my understanding, reflected a particularly self-centered personna. Sort of like satanism.

The key being that evil people aren't everything that good doesn't stand for, rather, they're people identical in every other respect from good, just not really altruists ^^ Even though alignments might seem black and white in D&D, its still considerably grey in my opinion.

We would probably all hope that a husband would still care for his wife, even if he witnessed her donating coin to a begger. Or that an otherwise cruel and selfish woman could be kind, caring, and generous to her children, if for no other reason then they'll think the better of her later for it.

So, in response to:

but there was a slightly evil character who was going with the group. Paladins I know are not supposed to work with evil characters.

I'd say that the answer is as simple as, let your character's natural inclinations be the judge ^^ From personal experience, it can be pretty fun to play the character who is ignorant of extenuating circumstances, and follows the rules to the letter. Not being understanding leads to some interesting (and occasionally unpleasent) situations.

It would be a chaotic act for the paladin.

It's not that hard to send the evil bastard packing and then solving the dilemma yourself.

Whenever I had experiences like that, Ivandur would always imply or directly say said evil bastard won't be earning any gold, therefor making it a selfless act (To an extent). Either the evil bastard would leave, or if he was truly concerned with committing a good act he'd shrug it off (This is the plan back firing on me).

Really, just send them packing. >.>

I don't know about that...I mean

I've worked with Ivandur once.... 8)

I heartely second Metro's comment, but I have a bit of a problem still with what Inquisitor said. Would evil gain nothing, if they wouldn't get money? Would they not gain knowledge, skills, perhaps magical weapons? Would they gain nothing whatsoever, if no coins were involved? Yes, they would still gain something. Therefore the Paladin promotes the evil, and therefore he commits a chaotic act.

For reference on Paladins, what they are, and are not allowed to do:

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/18/1829/good-vs-evil-a-paladin-s-folly/index.html

I've always had issues with this. Isnt part of a lot of dogma to try to "save" or convert those that are on team evil to team good? In the case mentioned wouldnt this be an oppurtunity to do so? To show this evil lad that this necromancer's skill are no match for the powers granted to good. And by being successful, that good guys get the gold. Maybe along the way you could drop some knowledge on him that might help him see the light. I never cared for the: Man approaches the party. *detects ebul* "He cant come he is evil! I fell darkness in his heart! From this day forward eveytime I see this character I will shout evil! And make off handed remarks that would technically be OOC for a paladin to do!"

Evil can be redeemed in your spare time. Not when evil can gain more loot + xp + friends + whatnot. You can talk them into goodliness when the evil guy gains nothing, only your time.

Good act > Lawful act is about the gist of it, if you ever need to choose..

There's the occasional circumstance where working with evil is unavoidable, I agree. 99% of the time however you're shirking your strict vows that you made when you became a paladin. You -don't- work with evil, because even if they don't get a share of the reward, they still gain knowledge/the oppertunity to steal/a miriad of others things they might of wanted to go on that quest with your paladin for. If your god is telling you someone is evil and untrustworthy, you should listen. By all means try to convert them, but a quest area in the middle of combat isn't the best place for you to try and show Evil McGee the light.

Linelle Good act > Lawful act is about the gist of it, if you ever need to choose..

Bindragon

Linelle Good act > Lawful act is about the gist of it, if you ever need to choose..

Linelle, I think this works well as a default for Paladins, but I also think that it's important for players to consider some variation so that not all paladins are the same cookie cutter form. Some may want to emphasize the Law and Order more while upholding some semblance of Good, though maybe that Paladin tows the line between Good and Neutral. I think there can be varied levels of how Lawful and how Good your character is, while still staying within LG. That is certainly the challenge of playing such an extreme character class.

Thanks everyone for your replies...

After thinking about it, I guess I'll have to choose how I want to RP my paladin... what type of person I want her to be and if she's willing to make exceptions re: working w/evil character when there are extenuating circumstances. So I'll have plenty to think about.

From the SRD:

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.

Emphasis mine. That's the official description of the paladin class; there is little room for interpretation.

There is no room for intepretations, the rules are pretty much clear. Knowningly Work with Evil = Fall from Grace

One must remember that "Associate" means alot, from drinking with them, to working with them to answering their questions, etc etc. An Associate is someone you know, and not by reputation.

Associate(adj.): A person united with another or others in an act, enterprise, or business; a partner or colleague.

Associate(v.tr.) To join as a partner, ally, or friend

To Associate(n): To spend time socially; keep company

You can't have evil characters as a partner, friend or ally. You can't work with him in a united cause for something or someone. You can't spend time with the person chatting amically as if he was your neighbour. In short, if he's Evil he is the Enemy.

And its even worse if you serve a diety who is opposed to the said evil person's diety. Its ridiculous for a paladin of say, Ilmater to be questing with a priest of bane for example. Any paladin doing that should get a lightning bolt shoved up his pink round little winkled idiotic *censored by author*

If you DO associate with evil, its because you HAVE no choice.

IE: The house is on fire, a child is trapped, and the bugger is holding the ladder. IE: The orcs are about to overwhelm you and you have to protect the children and women, even if it means standing shoulder to shoulder with a banite. IE: You were given a direct order by your superior, which you are sworn to obey, in a just and possibly holy cause. IE: The end of the world depends on it. IE: You hate greedy lawyers, can't stand evil tax collectors, and smite tax evaders.

Even if you were FORCED by circumstances, you should still view yourself as tainted by such cooperation, and in need of atonement. Depending on the degree, it could be as simple as a bath in water and prayer, a blessing of a priest of your faith, or a quest to balance out the deed.

Thats my take, and one my paladin characters follow.

It is a very good take, Casperzero!

It's also important to realize that Lawful here doesn't necessarily mean you are always obliged to follow laws. Laws are written by men, your paladin upholds a code passed down by a god. Being Lawful means you are disciplined and committed to that code. A paladin in Thay wouldn't have to be obliged to follow the orders of a Red Wizard because he knows that wizard's authority comes from an evil and corrupt government. Of course he also wouldn't live very long...

Casperzero IE: You were given a direct order by your superior, which you are sworn to obey, in a just and possibly holy cause. IE: The end of the world depends on it. IE: You hate greedy lawyers, can't stand evil tax collectors, and smite tax evaders.

First off: You obey to your Paladin-code, not to your superior.

The Paladin would never help evil, even if it would save the world. There's a line saying this in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Greedy lawyers and evil tax collectors should be reported to the proper authorities, and they will deal with them.

For the rest, bravo. Well put.

Coldburn The Paladin would never help evil, even if it would save the world. There's a line saying this in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

I reiterate, there is a good reason why you're Lawful GOOD and not Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil. Lawful Neutral means following a code for its own sake, or that "the end does not justify the means". Lawful Good, on the other hand, is not so simple. You do follow a code but not for its own sake: you follow it because you believe it will bring good in the world in the long run. That is the very reason why the paladin exists, to make the world a better place to live.

Now, if the circumstances are unambiguous enough that it's clear the only conceivable way of saving the world (or doing another very good deed) requires cooperating with an evil person, then you've no choice. As Casperzero pointed out, you'd still be 'tainted' afterwards, but that is irrelevant regarding the situation itself. If you have no choice, then you have no choice. Good is your priority, not Law.

It may just be that the person who wrote that line is an idiot, but it's the Sourcebook, and the game we play by.

The Book of Exalted Deeds may be a sourcebook, but it isn't a core rulebook. I would think it would be the paladin's option to hold himself to that. The PHB restrictions, on the other hand, are unassailable.

Oh, I never thought on that.

Core Rulebooks override Sourcebooks? Does the Core Rulebook say anything different than the Sourcebook?

Anthee That's the dilemma of being a paladin.

What if that evil person learned something important in that temple - say, found a tome of necromancy and decided to keep it to himself, later constituting an even greater evil?

Unless there is another ilmateri paladin named Kara, I think I am the evil person he was describing... and I actually DID a few trinkets which I DO plan to use for greater evil in the future heh.

In response to Vesa,

1. I am a "she" :)

2. Kara did not actually take the job I was asking about because I needed to log to get to class on time. So if Kara did work with an evil character of yours, it was on a separate occasion and I must've forgotten to use detect evil (shame on me I know).

Oh heh there *IS* another ilmateri paladin named Kara running around then... it was Karas-omething-or-other though, thats only the start of HIS name.

Well I wouldn't ever assume that a non-core rule (whether feat, prestige class, or whatever) applied to a game unless I had DM approval. Core rules are safely assumed to apply unless specified otherwise.

As far as the Book of Exalted Deeds goes, as a sourcebook detailing how to be really really good, nothing necessarily applies. The line about the paladin seems to be more restrictive than the PHB. I'm sure a paladin could use the PHB restrictions and arrive at something like what the BoED says, but it's simply that: they could. The PHB is less restrictive and doesn't spell out that a paladin wouldn't work with an evil character to save the world. All it says is that they will never knowingly associate with an evil character.

I can think of a scenario where a paladin might be willing (unhappy but willing!) to "work with" a known evil character but not "associate" with them. End of the world scenarios are about all I can think of, and even then it would be unlikely. But perhaps possible.

Paladins are, at the highest levels, attempting to be recreations of Joan of Arc, King Arthur, and many other mythical and legendary characters of yore.

The best example of a Paladin however, is still Sir Galahad, son of Sir Lancelot du Luc. Sir Galahad was so damn fricking holy that he had the other knights in an awe, and they all just KNEW he was special. Not only that, he had an aura about him, that a Paladin's aura. RP it.

Paladins have a Aura of Courage, thats a supernatural, magical, constant effect that makes people braver. Can you imagine?

Kork the Cowardly wizard, trembles before the half orc bully. Suddenly, Justin the Just, Paladin, appears. He stands behind Kord, telling him to be brave, putting a hand on his shoulder. Suddenly, Kork gets a positive bonus to his Will Save, he feels braver. He stands up to the half orc and send him away.

Depending on how you RP it, that Aura could be nothing more than a plus to Will save A tingling feeling on the skin A feeling of holiness and rightousness A choir of voices in your ears, bolstering you(bardic voices!) Even a vision of the diety, telling you to be strong!

This is the same with Smite Evil.

Smite evil can be... A plus to damage, nothing much. A sudden flash of light as the weapon impacts, cleaving a deep wound into the orc. A suddenly bright and glowing weapon, that cleaves harder and strikes faster for a brief moment. The Paladin may suddenly look like a Celestial, complete with unfolding white wings and a radiant aura, just before he strikes you! The Paladin may say something in Tongues, an unintelligible gibberish that strikes fear in your heart, causing you to hesitate, and the blow to therefore hit and bite deeply.

Clerics may be holy priests, but Paladins are the embodiment of a Dieties' will, the chosen warrior of choice in times of peril. Churches send priests to perform exorcisms. But they send Paladins to destroy and rout the physical enemies. They send Paladins to lead armies to victory.

Of ALL the classes in game, paladins are the HARDEST to play, the one with the MOST RP, the ones with the BEST RP, the one which is born to take part in RP Conflict, and one of the least powerful combat classes, and the one most likely to be killed or assasinated. In short, to be a paladin, you have a LOT of responsibilities, but very little backup. On most servers, Paladins are unsupported by DMs, resulting in much less of a holy paladin, and more of a Fighter with Religious Inclinations.

Also a problem with paladins is that its very hard to properly flesh out every church that comes along. It relies on the PC to come up with ranks, titles, more dogma and more rules, etc, to follow, for approval by the DMs.

It is HIGHLY unlikely, that a LAWFUL character would not know his position in the church, not have an official rank, and not know several standard prayers. I advise all paladins and would be paladins to try and liason with DMs before or after creating.

Coldburn

Casperzero IE: You were given a direct order by your superior, which you are sworn to obey, in a just and possibly holy cause. IE: The end of the world depends on it. IE: You hate greedy lawyers, can't stand evil tax collectors, and smite tax evaders.

Actually, the first points were likely correct, but these aren't.

First off: You obey to your Paladin-code, not to your superior.

The Paladin would never help evil, even if it would save the world. There's a line saying this in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Greedy lawyers and evil tax collectors should be reported to the proper authorities, and they will deal with them.

You are a Good person first, Lawful person second. Depending on who you serve and your dogma, chances are, you have a church heirachy, and you swore your oaths to mother/father church. That puts you in the heirachy, and if you don't follow orders, you are Chaotic.

nd if you don't follow orders, chances are, they will throw you out, and if they throw you out, I doubt they'll do so withtout a dishourable dischages, ripping out emblems of your diety and breaking your sword in two, oh, and shaving you bald.

You are a Soldier of a Diety, not some bloody adventurer who seeks gold and glory. It is a Paladin REQUIREMENT to tithe, not a responsibility, its a REQUIREMENT, no tithe = no spells/special abilities. Constantly not tithing = loss of Paladinhood. Depending on how the DM inteprets, paladin tithing could be several things.

a simple 10% of all loot you receive service to the chuch as deemed by the DM to be sufficient A sacrifice at an alter of an animal, with expensive materials being used. Going on Crusade

One last spam post.

Paladins are very hard to play in online games with higher player density. That is because DMs or GMs cannot spend the time needed to make Paladins really Paladins. Paladins require help from the DMs to work properly, from a background, to powers, to assistance from Dieties. Paladins are the guys who pray and actually get a direct response from his Diety, without needing to resort to a very high level Commune spell.

My sugguestion? Keep Paladins in PnP. Keep them out of MMOGs. They just become a lousy excuse for a fighter. After playing paladins on several different servers, I've more or less made a decision not to play a proper paladin unless I know I'll have DM support. Try a multiclass Fighter/Cleric instead. More spells, more AB, more Feats. Ftr/Clr > Pal

You've some very good takes on the paladin class, Casperzero, but I feel your own knowledge on the matter is blinding yourself if you say the class should be removed from online RPing entirely. This is the point where compromises have to be made between PnP and online RPing. Roleplaying in a Persistent World can never be the same as playing tabletop D&D, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be a need for paladins online as well.

Oh, and by the way. The spells that the paladin gets make it without doubt the strongest melee presence in the long run of all the core classes. By the time you can cast 3rd level paladin spells, fighter does not even compare.

Even online, paladins are much more than "lousy excuses for a fighter", both RP- and power-wise.