One of the main factors of a story, is that no character is perfect, and at some point they acknowledge their weakness and attempt to overcome them. (or die, or something >.>)

The point is, no one is truly fearless (despite common beleif, this should apply to paladins as well) No one is truly unconvincible if the person is persuasive enough.

I've noticed alot of people who choose to play seemingly (I say this because I'm not 100% sure) Fearless characters. They dont seem to fear anything, not even things that would make most people logically shit their pants. I've also noticed that people wont let their PCs be tricked more often by not, if they OOCly think or know it is a trick. That is not to say Nobody does this - I personally give Kudos in a tell to anyone who actually allows their PC to be tricked.

Another thing I've noticed, which really really bugs me. There is some people who are very stubborn, but it is -very- rare to find someone who cannot be convinced if you set your mind to it/are persuasive enough. But I see that more often than not, Most people dont want to variate from what they outlined in their original concept, and will not listen at all to persuasive arguments that would seriously change their character's outlook on an issue.

I'll give a painfully Obvious example.

The Scholar. Anyone who was actually around him would know he made some amazing arguements on the side of Pro-necromancy. But nobody Listened because they OOCly knew it was evil, according to their FR sources. His arguements and attempts at persuasion were some of the best I have ever seen, but for the most part, they were wasted words. Im not saying his enemies should've just conceded and said "OMG you're right, necromancy is cool!" - But it should've at least given them some form of doubt in their own beleifs, enough to question it more.

People, please Keep in mind a true sign of an awesome character is not how strong they are or how many quests they can smash, or even how many PVP kills they can get. A truly awesome character is one with very real weaknesses and flaws, exploitable by others in some way. The truly awesome events are almost always inspired by a characters weakness. When I DMed, I would always watch a PC for awhile first, trying to figure out what would affect them most ICly, What would challenge their Pc's mindset most. Would they crumble under the pressure, or work to overcome it? Those were my most memorable experiences as a DM - Always the most interesting events to run.

In short, please try to remember weakness is a important part of every concept. While it may make you die abit sooner, or possibly hinder your leveling (oh no!) - I can garantee the RP experience will be much more fun for you and others.

Stop making "Perfect PC's" please.

Agreed.

Cruzel, die.

I agree with cruzel

(edit: the point is in the last paragraph)

EfU and similar persistent world roleplaying games suffer from a clash of two versions of the fictional genre.

The first is the fantasy fiction - This is the kind of game that the original Dungeons and Dragons, as well as most games of its ilk (including many single player computer games), strives to portray. In this fiction, there are almost exclusively two sides to the argument, the players or protagonists are the center of the story and/or world, and it is given that great feats and abilities are attributed to them. These are hero stories, and are especially effective in games because they fully empower players who, in real life, often have limits to their power.

The second is literary fiction - People who play EfU are intelligent and, in many cases, well-read. Works by the great writers, especially the more modern writers, are great greatly admired for their real portrayals of the human condition. Many times, players would like to emulate these "realistic" conditions. In these stories, the protagonist is a member of the world as a whole, and the only thing that he/she/it is the center of is their own mind. Furthermore, the protagonist is almost always terribly flawed, but is granted redeeming qualities that make the character interesting or relatable.

EfU is directly grounded (both in setting and in game-engine) in fantasy fiction, but its (not necessarily) non-cooperative multiplayer and literate player population lends itself to literary fiction, where characters must be diverse and unique to stand out.

The funny thing is that these two factions of fiction were spawned together. The oldest of epics, Gilgamesh, is an almost unparalleled blend between heroic feats and introspective self-struggle. Later epics, like that of Odysseus, explored the human character in a like manner.

Think of it this way, though. To play a Gilgamesh on EfU would be impossible. The entire server would have to cater to your needs. You would be the undisputed hero of EfU. Likewise, creating an almost cripplingly flawed character like, say, Raskolnikov, would be fucking boring on what is, at its heart, hack&slash dungeon crawling.

So, it comes down to compromise. And the flavor of the compromise resides in the attitude of the specific player in question. We've had plenty "heroic" characters on EfU be very influential and famous. For some players, crafting a template for a personality ("I am good. I uphold the law. I hate goblins. I don't eat bagels. Now I'm ready to play.") is a calmingly simple way to enter into roleplaying. Players who practically let the characters create themselves, letting them act on their own accord, so to speak, are no more valid (and will probably become more stressed throughout the whole experience anyhow, even if it may be more rewarding).

Uh. What I guess I'm trying to say is, let people play this game how they want. If you want to create a story with imperfect characters for days, go do some writing. You can craft with intricacy how shockingly human your characters react to certain situations. Otherwise, enjoy the elves, zombies, and loot.

Senestia's imperfect flaw is that she just loves too much.

Good post, Secutor.

Keep in mind that there have been plenty of characters in stories who seemingly had no critical or fatal flaws.

Take Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars. He more or less kicked ass all around, was still a compelling character, and really had few flaws that come to mind, if any.

Also take Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. His only flaw was the fact he was scared to rise up to meet his destiny, and I wouldn't really even call that a flaw that might lead to his death or any misfortune, but rather an end goal.

I do recognize that people love playing bad-asses, and I'm one of them. I don't find it fun to play a sniveling coward who shits his pants at the first sign of a rat. I understand people might enjoy being around a character like that, but it's not something I'd enjoy getting into.

To me fatal flaws are things that might be considered strenghts of a character that could also lead him to his death. (Maybe so brave that he fears nothing and that's WHY he dies.)

Some people may not even think they have fatal flaws, and that's how I felt about Theon for a while, but I've slowly started to identify them.

In anycase. I think people should play what they want, and as long as they play an indepth character with an interesting personality... then who cares if they're trying to be badass?

I agree here.

I've made some pretty persuavie arguements with Svir. I can see this going on first hand, because no matter what I say, People just wont let their Pcs be convinced because it would change their concept away from what they want it to be, forgetting what the IC impact would and should be.

Some people I'll admit, because of who they are, will be very very stubborn as who what they can be persuaded of. But they should still be able to be persuaded, if enough effort is given.

On that note - Torture. I've noticed alot of people just going.. "meh' to torture. basically, Unless you FD them outright, they just go "meh". Torture is a severe an d excrutiating experience, and people need to remember this. Think realistically (Well, you know what I mean) What this would mean to my character? Even characters who are total badasses can't stand up to torture forever.

Some people won't be persuaded to to just anything. It really depends on the character in question and what you attempt to persuade him/her to do. I've seen events affect characters and I've seen successful persuasion or at least something that's got characters to think different. Just keep on trying, leave how the characters react to the players who control them. Most of all, have fun while you try.

It takes time to change the fundamental belief of characters, even if your character is persuasive.

Well in regards to the scholar its a well believed part of FR background that necromancy is generally seen as evil so i see no problems with people disagreeing with a man who was clearly a necromancer (Also i would argue that the fact that he had so many followers was an indication he was good at persuading people)

Also in regards to tricking someone since you cant really know the stats of another charecter I would say its hard to know if they can be easily tricked or not (A high int high wis cha is going to be harder to trick than Bob the int 8 wis 8 Half-orc) and as for the fearless part well most adventurers on Efu are escaped slaves and adventuring is a high danger job so they really should be very hard to rattle.

People really need to roll more Persuade and Int/Wisdom checks, at that.

A person is not likely be persuaded to do something against their nature. I play very manipulative characters. I don't mean that in the negative way, however, allot of what I enjoy doing on this server is changing, guiding or directing other peoples actions. I can say with utmost certainty that people can be persuaded, they can be tricked, and they can be deceived. Allot of people don't enjoy role playing being tortured, its their right to have it effect their characters in any way they please.

You have to be very careful when you say you make very persuasive arguments, because in all honesty, its not your opinion of your words that matter in the situation. It's how the other person reacts to them, that determines the success or failure.

I will say however, changing how another person views the world can take months of active persuasion, and it can be ruined with the faintest warning signs that something may be off.

Cruzel But they should still be able to be persuaded, if enough effort is given.

Also, torture rarely produces true or accurate results. Then, In Fearun, unlike real life, you have an undeniable and tangible afterlife to look forward to if you hold true to your beliefs.

Take Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars. He more or less kicked ass all around, was still a compelling character, and really had few flaws that come to mind, if any.

Obi Wan was naive, and wanted to much to beleive that Anakin was the saviour of the Jedi, he neglected to see the warning signs, which inevitably led to Anakin's fall. (and his own death)

Also take Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. His only flaw was the fact he was scared to rise up to meet his destiny, and I wouldn't really even call that a flaw that might lead to his death or any misfortune, but rather an end goal

I Agree. I'm not saying all the flaws need to be fatal. I'm just saying they need to be there.

And for reference, I find the above quote bullshit at best. You just try convincing a devote religious person that their way of seeing the world in wrong and yours isn't. If someone truely believes in something, you're basically shit outta luck in trying to get them to change their mind

Wrong. As Vincent I was able to shake the beleif and get one paladin to befriend him, while never using PfG and her fully aware of his evil. How? I was just that persuasive. And I almost had a Second paladin as well. It took me a damn long time, and sadly the first player is no longer around. That player has one of the highest Kudos in my book, for allowing me to shake the very core of he belif like that.

As for changing their very beleifs, Conversion is- or should be, often possible, as polytheism is popular in FR. In some cases they may be convinced to outright forsake the deity, though those I agree, will take -a lot- of work. It's certainly possible, and I've done it/had it happen to myself. And I give full Kudos to the people who givet he effort to change people like that/ the people who are changed. My point is it does not happen enough.

Also, torture rarely produces true or accurate results. Then, In Fearun, unlike real life, you have an undeniable and tangible afterlife to look forward to if you hold true to your beliefs

I would Disagree here as well. torture is a horrible experience, and nobody is immune to it. Even the most devout in faith can, or should be able to break - If you are effective enough. Regardless of your faith, there is only so much a person can endure before they start to lose it. For some this is incredibly high tolerance, for some all you need to do is cut off a finger.

In summation, I suppose I should have been clearer. Not every can be the hero. You can certainly try - But keep in mind that without including some form of fear into your concept - Even if it's mundane and will probably never come up. (Intense fear of snakes that turns the badass into an an other wise whimpering pussy, Or even something as simple as a fear of failure, which causes them to strive forward and improve themselves so they never fail, for example.) These fears and other personality flaws leave your hero up for manipulation, which can either fail or succeed.

The point here is not to Win EFU, but to make it more fun for everybody. Not everybody is going to play the evil badass who wins all his arguements with his sword. Some are going to use their words - In order to make the RP experience the best it can be for you and other people - Incorperate weakness of some sort into your concept.

Just as a point, no player knows each other character fully. Few characters are like the bosses from Clive Barker's Jericho (by Clive Barker) that hold up signs saying "my weakness is passion fruit."

I think another problem is that sometimes people simply forget what Playing EfU is.

Improvisation.

The very first, number one rule of Improv: Accept everything that happens as real.

What's this mean exactly? If two improv characters are on stage and one says "OH my GOD! What is that crawling out of your ear!" The other -must- act upon this. Otherwise the improv becomes boring and stale. "What? There's nothing in my ear you crazy bat" "Oh... umm.... right" Dead sketch.

The second rule: Nobody is the most important. Basically we are all side characters to a larger story to which the main character never arrives. This goes back to a post at the beginning. We can't all play the hero. All we can do is play the side character and attempt to have our fifteen minutes of fame. (or is the saying fifteen seconds? I forget)

Truly though. Just relax and let the character come from you. Sometimes it's hard to let yourself really get into the game and say "damn, how would I feel in this situation?" *running for your life as a horde of undead chase you*

I have to agree here. As the now-long-dead Voric, I faced the following situation.

I had a paladin in my grasp, near death and subdued. I cut of finger by finger, but, he resisted. This Im fine with.

Then I painted a red symbol of eltab on the floor, tied him to it, sprinkled "the blood of children" on it and him, and threatened to turn him into an avatar of all he hates. A creature of pure evil and hatred, A defender of all that is black in intention. You would think this would have some effect on him. At least a little. Nope. >_>

I ended up cutting off his arms and legs and leaving him to be eaten close to Mur.

This was, overall, a very frusterating situation. Just because they are immune to magical fear, doesn't make them fearless. And the epic fear spells and dragon fear even still effect them.

Note that I later was cornered and FD'd by this paladin and a mob, him having miraculously regenerated his limbs at the cure moderate wounds spell of a cleric.

Paladins are very, very annoying at times.

This could also depend on the players definition of weakness. One mans junk is another mans treasure.

On one hand layncathropy is a disease or possession of the body that needs to be cured, on the other it could be a considered boon that simply needs to be controlled to become awesome.

On one hand a split personality makes a person crazy, on the other this person could be the ultimate super-hero, spy or villain. (I am zee batman!)

Just because somebody has arachnophobia doesn’t always mean they run screaming from spiders. Some may actually mask their fear and make a special effort to kill every spider they see.

If a ‘slaver’ were to show up in Sanctuary I think that fight and flight would be the typical response. But either way I believe slavery would be a common thread of ‘weakness’ in EfU.

So simply to ask or to discreetly probe a person to find their weakness may not always reveal any. In most cases it would take years of friendship or psychotherapy to learn things about somebody that maybe even the person themselves don’t know or will never admit to.

There are two discussions going on in this post; characters should have weaknesses and how to change how others act.

Every character should not be perfect, yet it should not always be obvious what someone's weakness is. One cannot assume that flat out torture is the way to change another's behavior. Perhaps it is coin, jokes about his mother, threats on a friend, promise of a way to escape. you can spend time explaining that necromancy is great, but perhaps it might work if you instead warned that somneone's mother may be killed if you don't help or a bagful of coin everyday. Don't assume you know their weakness and get upset when they don't do what you want them to.

As for affecting other characters we must consider two other things, one is IC and one is OOC.

IC The majority of people you meet have been slaves and tortured by drow, duerger, illithid, etc. Do you think any little PC on the street could be worse than what they have met for days, weeks, months, possibly years? Could the tortured mind of an ex-slave really care what your Loviataran thinks? Escape and retribution might be the only thing that keeps someone going and a little beat down might not have the affect you thought it should. As a Loviataran cleric I understand that each person I have met has experienced a good deal of torture and I can only do so much by a beat down and other methods of psychological torture are required.

OOC Everyone has made a character, a story, and has become part of the overall world of EfU. The idea that you want to change how they act to make them part of your story and not theirs is selfish. You can try to influence their characters, force them to react but you cannot write their story for them. If someone is writing my story for me, I need not play and should just watch cartoons. Play with others and don't try to force people to act in ways you think they should. You can try to influence them of course, yet why would anyone want to play if we must always folow another's rules and act how others want us to. Perhaps all you need to do is keep searching for the weakness to make them unwillingly do what you want them to or give them plenty of coins and potions.

And lastly while you think you have been convincing and persuasive don't expect others to be convinced. Take this discussion as an example; do you think you have convinced anyone to change their thinking even while you think you have been persuasive? What if you changed one person out of the 20 that have read this - perhaps you should expect 5% of the characters to change their ways and not 100%. Even logic ain't enough to persuade folk to change their minds. It may allow them to understand your thinking and frustrations though.

There are three sides to any issue, your side, my side, and the correct side.

Let us play, enjoy the game, and rock on. :D

I agree very much with what Joe Desu says about that no one should be perfect, but that it should not be obvious what their weakness is, nor should "normal" torture always be the way to go with them.

For example, I always imagined that the best way to "torture" Sunellar would be to kidnap beautiful girls and send them back horribly disfigured (Having sprayed acid all over their face or something). (That's just what I thought, though!)

This is a complex issue, but my solution is rather simple.

If my character comes into conflict with you, captures you, then proceeds to make demands of you, then I react appropriately to the situation and my character.

That's it.

If my character is serious about those threats he will carry them out. If I say: "Give me the artifact, or I shall kill you and your friends." Then, well, you better hand me that artifact, because if you don't I'll kill you and your friends. Bonus evil points if your friends are there, helplessly watching, and I kill them one by one as you watch and they beg and plead for you to give into my demands. Triple evil bonus points if they decide to betray you to save their own hides.

I've been on both ends of this. My last such encounter was last month. My character was mugged after a quest. She was completely helpless and unable to do anything. After they robbed her she began to weep uncontrollably, as she pathetically pleaded for her life. They told her they mostly were after her friends. What did she do? She encouraged them to kill her friends, so long as they spared her. She was willing to do anything and say anything to save herself.

It worked. They let her live, and they even went so far as to apologize for what they had done and escort her to safety. Luckily, while the muggers were dealing with her antics her friends managed to escape. However, once she was safe and fully healed, what did she do? She went to warn her friends, conveniently leaving out the last bit where she sold them out, and they notified the proper authorities. The muggers were eventually brought to justice as a result.

What would have happened if my character had spit in their face, declared that no matter what happened, she'd never give into their demands, and never do what they wanted? What would have happened if she had threatened them with the Watch and Spellguard? They would have killed her, and rightfully so.

In the real world, if I pull out a gun and hold it to your head, and am serious about blowing your brains out unless you give me your money, it is highly unlikely that you would resist.

That being said, there are some cases where resistance makes sense. If my Cleric of Bane captures your Cleric of Torm and demands that your cleric convert to Bane or die... well... in this instance it makes perfect sense for the cleric to choose death.

However, what if my Cleric of Tyr captures your rogue who is guilty of assault and a number of other petty crimes. My Cleric of Tyr then gives you the opportunity to redeem yourself through service to Tyr or face justice (death) for your crimes? Why not accept the offer?

A character who is willing to "bend" is less likely to be "broken" in the long run. It also opens up many new and interesting plots that you might otherwise have been excluded from. Such bending should not be seen as a negative thing but an opportunity to go down a path you did not anticipate. There is nothing wrong with that.

All of the above being said, in the end it is my belief that everyone should play their characters how they best envision them being played. We play for enjoyment, so play your character how you enjoy it the most. Just be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions.

The problem arises when either party refuses to cooperate; by refusing to cooperate or constantly conniving and trying to write the story of others.

It is equally bad form to refuse to cooperate as it is to try to put words into others' mouths, in my opinion.

Meldread's got it. You can't make people play the way you want them to (certainly, we don't want you to try in the first place) so it's just best to react as most appropriate to your character.

If Joe Paladino is not going to crave in under torture and threats, well. Joe Paladino can get his wish and be a martyr : (

I've enjoyed reading this thread as its stuff I would write at length if I wasn't so damnably lazy. The improvisation point is a good one Oona - going with the flow of a situation always leads somewhere fun. And I also wish more people used persuade, bluff and wisdom rolls a bit more before rejecting a situation. I have had players sending me tells that a roll isn't necessary. I know they are trying to be helpful but sometimes it helps to be clear you are being hooked in or alternatively are attempting to bluff your way.

Maybe if you really must dream up an flawless hero with super duper X-ray vision and enormous cojones at least write a note in your journal on day one with a secret but amusing fault that once discovered will turn you into a snivelling wreck - Even Indy is afraid of snakes.

Poking my head in, in a bit of free time.

Secutor: Currently playing Raskolnikov. Stfu, it's fun.

People not reacting to torture:

Totally expected. It's a lot easier for somebody to emote torturing someone than for the victim to have to abide the results of torture, and completely change the way their character behaves. Physical torture seems too cheap and easy a way to completely compel a victim. If you're going to expect results at all from breaking every bone in a person's body, then you need to either have a character who is genuinely cool with playing a victim and is looking for a way to change things up a bit, or else find a better, more clever way of doing it. Psychological torture is absolutely amazing, and players are far more likely to respond with an "oh shit, this is cool, how would my character respond to this?!" than they would "Stop! STOP! WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MY CHARACTER NOOES" while you put their face into a bag full of broken glass.

Flawed characters with interesting personality quirks are far cooler than any gimmicky crap I've ever seen out of Inquisitor anyways. Not to mention that DMs have said time and time again that they love conflicted characters, what more incentive do you really need? If you actually have more criteria guiding your character's decisions than "Krunk smash, get jinglies!" Then you'll have an interesting character, especially once you get to those sort of "damned if you do, damned if you don't situations" that are bound to crop up eventually.

Picture this:

Staunch Lawful Neutral Watchman is in deep shit after breaking orders of a superior and causing no end to trouble, he is approached by a different superior and told what the consequences of his actions have been. Absolutely diametrically opposed to what he believes in, he's crushed, because it's his fault now that one of his goals will never be accomplished. Still, his other goals remain, and to achieve them, he needs to be promoted. He knows that because of what he did, he should absolutely be demoted, when he's presented an ultimatum. Lie, an extremely chaotic action, and say that the orders he received were Overruled by a higher superior, and in so doing get that superior fired, so that there is room for promotion, or refuse, and be demoted back to square one, likely undoing months and months of work, and removing pretty much any chance of future advancement.

What does he choose? Well, it happened to Cail Durris, and he chose to lie, implicating a Lieutenant he'd never really even met, so that he could remain a Sergeant, so as to then earn Lt. and later Sheriff. Absolute torment for the character, it sparked off the events that culminated in his breakdown and (last) suicidal death-charge.

If there's anything else for me to say, I guess it's this: Don't ever bloody forget where your character has been. Know his past, live it, make it show in every bit of the character's roleplay. Whether it's just a limp you emote from time to time, a constant facial expression, a manner of speaking, a crippling drug addiction, or whatever else, those quirks are how people remember your character, and possibly the biggest way to get other people interested in interacting with you.

Cail Durris is probably best remembered for angst and emoting *scowls* every second line. I will probably not forget Ichabod the Cripple until years from now, and I hardly ever even roleplayed with him, or found out why he was crippled. Apathetic Annie is remembered for her drug addiction. So is Morgan Maddocks, the infamous booze-whore. Maalgor had one eye. Breena Watchever's got magic in her e-e-eyes. And I bet you can think of plenty of others.

I've been plenty self-indulgent in this post, I hardly can count Cail Durris as one of my best characters, but he was probably my best fleshed out, and he was probably best for exemplifying my points, even if most of the more recent (read: last two years) players have no idea who he was.

Hammerfist0 I have to agree here. As the now-long-dead Voric, I faced the following situation.

I had a paladin in my grasp, near death and subdued. I cut of finger by finger, but, he resisted. This Im fine with.

Then I painted a red symbol of eltab on the floor, tied him to it, sprinkled "the blood of children" on it and him, and threatened to turn him into an avatar of all he hates. A creature of pure evil and hatred, A defender of all that is black in intention. You would think this would have some effect on him. At least a little. Nope. >_>

I ended up cutting off his arms and legs and leaving him to be eaten close to Mur.

This was, overall, a very frusterating situation. Just because they are immune to magical fear, doesn't make them fearless. And the epic fear spells and dragon fear even still effect them.

Note that I later was cornered and FD'd by this paladin and a mob, him having miraculously regenerated his limbs at the cure moderate wounds spell of a cleric.

Paladins are very, very annoying at times.

If you give them an ultimatum, do what I say or die is usually a fair death because they have the chance to develop their character, fallen paladin and all that. Paladins may be immune to fear, but they are not immune to common sense.

Kot's Wisdom:

it's fun.

Word.

I don't think its as bad as the OP is saying, most people do have some sort of weakside to their characters, one they tend to not freely discuss or flaunt on their sleeve. Its unfair to brand a player as having only fearless charactes when you haven't put in the in-character effort to find those things.

A lot of people have gone to Montezzi and done the bow and scrape to avoid future punishments or to try buy the safety of those they care about - because they're frightened of them. I would bet that a good chunk of Montezzi loot comes from gifts offered by those people.

As another example, I really doubt anyone would dare to offend Intryzz at one of his gladiator events.

How many people regularly go picnicking near Chabzash?

I think fear is alive and well on Efu.

Kotenku Secutor: Currently playing Raskolnikov. Stfu, it's fun.

As another example, I really doubt anyone would dare to offend Intryzz at one of his gladiator events.

Anyways.

Those that agreed with me - Top stuff, and (most) Good examples.

Those who didnt - You suck. Educate yourselves.

On a more serious note-

Since making this thread, I've noticed alot more people willing to be persuaded, and such. Spot on guys, Spot on.

Cruzel seems to have fallen victim to confirmation bias. :(

Ah, a most wonderful post. Thank you Cruzel, this is a gem for the ages. I once played a Tymoran known as Rondil Maydron the Unlucky Tymoran. He was so goddamned (literally) brave, he would run into a wall of poisoned arrows and die on a weekly basis. I'm not kidding! He had so many flaws, it was shocking. And yet, because he had friends, I played him over and over again. Months. He was well-loved, if not especially important or well-known. I kept bringing him back, and couldn't put him down. People still remember me on CoA, I think. Maybe. My point is, rp your flaws. They make your characters great.

Cruzel

As another example, I really doubt anyone would dare to offend Intryzz at one of his gladiator events.

Noiren Waken.

Anyways.

Those that agreed with me - Top stuff, and (most) Good examples.

Those who didnt - You suck. Educate yourselves.

On a more serious note-

Since making this thread, I've noticed alot more people willing to be persuaded, and such. Spot on guys, Spot on.

THE LEGEND OF NOIRIN LIVES ON! KNEEL!