I want to have a conversation with everyone on the recovery from Death. What does it mean to actually kill someone in PvP. I'm not talking about accidents or glitches or quests, but execution style PvP. Recently I was given the opportunity to have one of those rare good deaths, it had a huge build up, massive character changes, and a death I was not only comfortable with OOCly, but ICly. Successful PvP. Works for me.

Then something happened. Firstly I began to receive the rain of tells from everyone that were entirely apologetic. This was cool, I reassure them. Then in an act of kindness? My body was handed into the hands of my closest friends by the executioners themselves. This was not done to allow them to bury me, was done to allow them to ressurrect me. Heres where my confusion really starts to gain momentum, because all of a sudden I have the option of returning to a character that I'm obviously attached to. So of course I want to, and so do the players of the character closest to me. Decision time.

I had a good death. I had full and enjoyable run. This should not have been an issue, but it is. By giving me the opportunity to come back, right after the act, removed my statisfaction. It turned the actual death into something that for me, became entirely OOC. It became, why did they kill me if they didn't care if I was alive? Is killing someone a temporary punishment? I mean, All it would do is amount to me being robbed and apparently two levels lower. It this okay? I would have been completely fine with getting beat up, robbed, and kicked out the door. Why the death? Why the almost demanded resurrection? ...I'm no longer confused.

You should not kill anyone that you do not want dead. If I had decided to return, It would have amounted only to remove the finality and significance of the death, while leaving me OOCly punished with level and loot loss. Actually, it would have the exact opposite reaction the story would have otherwise endured. I would have, instead of being submissive to the loss, I would have come back with vengance. But thats not really the point. The point is, that my appreciation of this story has been changed. It would have been a completely different thing if another character had stolen my corpse away, or huge bargains went down to have her returned at a significant loss to the characters ICly. Anything that ensures that DEATH matters.

This topic is in General discussion because I want to talk about this to the community. I'm very appreciative of the gesture they offered me, but in the flip side of the same coin, It leaves me feeling really shitty. Was killing the character so completely irrelevant? Is it okay to use these types of punishment IC? Do we want to trivialize death further?

:: Edit:: Clarification: I don't feel comfortable coming back into this character, I want to, but I'm going to end this with a permadeath. This will serve as a notice for all those waiting on my decision. ((second edit:: unless Gippy talks me out of it for what ever reason.))

Pick up Stephen Brust's Vlad Taltos novels.

They're wonderful on this actually. Vlad Taltos is an assassin in a world where men can readily be returned to life. As he explains it, his job is to deliver a very powerful warning by killing certain individuals.

Part of the warning is, next time we kill you, we're not letting someone return your body to life. We're chopping it up into a thousand pieces and willing to spread it around the globe.

All the same, if you think the death was excellent--don't get raised. Just state clearly that your character's soul has moved on beyond death.

I think one of the things to remember is that you can choose not to come back the sould of the body has to be willing to return and although i for one both IC with one PC and OOC i am happy that Myria is still alive but this is the players choice.

I agree with you though, if you don't want the player dead and are going to allow them to take the body to get raised then, there isn't much reason to kill them in the first place, loot them and boot them out. I suppose i can see a flip side to this as well an interestign way to continue on. Hero's of Horror goes into this when resurection goes wrong you could apply some of those triats to the charcter. Have them completely now unafraid of dying or so scared that they don't want to leave the door. How you rp it is up to you though. There are a lot of options.

Was it irrelvant?

I think that is up to you if you can see a point and a reason to keep playing her no. If not then yes it would be.

Is it okay to use these types of punishment iC?

Once again i think that would have to be discussed with the players ooc to find out how they feel some will be okay others will not.

Do we want to trivialize death further?

That's a hard question to answer really is death trivial in the game setting? i have always felt that the turn over of PC's on Efu to be horrifying considering the size of the city, the mortality rate must be running well above 90% At times i actually find this imerssion breaking as the fact is that if people are so willing to throw away thier lives then the city as itself would have disintegrated and fallen away a long time ago.

Death is as important as you make it.

I'm notorious for my so called "Lame" deaths in the eyes of others. But each one has merit. If it feels Cinematic, I let it stay.

Elapidae got cut down after a victory, by a ninja hook horror that creeped up slowly behind him, in the middle of the underdark, and hit him with a one-shot crit to death. It felt like I was watching a movie. An individual just took out four enemies in the line of duty, and while celebrating and catching his breath, a fifth, hidden enemy got the best of him since his guard was down.

People calmored for raises, but I let is be. I feel a character's death should be important, and short of godly or infernal interfering, and PC's moving heaven and earth to get a character returned, If I'm complacent with a death, I let that be the end of the story, in a tragic sense, and more on to the next tale.

I can't force other people to see as I do, but I always feel death -should- be impacting.

A murderer who's victim is returned to life is more seen as a mugger than a murderer, I always thought. "He killed her, but it cost us 1k gold to get her back. We're out 1k gold!". It feels more like you stole their 1k gold than actually murdered a character.

Granted, if you want a murder to last, you can take steps, as Oro said, to make it permanent, but I always figured,

Its better to have a non-epic death that you feel was cool, and resulted in you feeling better and a sense of completion for playing a character, as opposed to getting raised and then being killed later at a point in which you feel angry, robbed, confused, or sour in the mouth.

This is a game. In games not every character is epic. Its fun to play the epic ones, but sometimes, much like in real life, Folks just die. There's no rhyme or reason for it. Folks die, the living move on. I've always tried to view EFU in some of the same light. But its a game.

Having fun is what is important. So have fun, enjoy your death if you feel that you want it to be permanent then enjoy end of your story, and march on to new endeavors.

Okay…I am going to throw in my two-cents here. I think if you die in PvP battle, and the hostile party allows your body to be taken by your allies, then it would be acceptable to return back to life. (Providing that they and you are okay with it, and you can use the event to fuel your character’ story)

If you character is killed execution style as punishment, then it may be in poor forum for the executioner allow the body to be taken and resurrected. I am of the thought that the executioner has already decided that it is time to end this character’s story, and that is why they have resulted to the execution style death. The executioner should not use the death of a character simply as a means of teaching the player a lesson, knowing that the character will be returned to the living.

Now with our friends in lower, I know they were only attempting to play their evil characters the best way they can, while at the same time taking into consideration of the player of the executed character. I understand it completely, which is why I am terrible at playing evil characters.

So, if you are happy with your character’s death, then I would let his soul slip too far to be recovered to the living. Otherwise, use this even to greatly enhance your character’s story and RP in the game.

Cheers,

Domare

I really dont understand what are the critiques of this post.

Sorry!

All they did was give you a chance to choose whether or not you want to end your character. That's it! They didn't want to -force- you to permadeath a character you like.

Of course, it's more symbolic if you stay death for them and for you, but they wouldnt force the story to end this way and left the choice in your hands in a very good sportmanship way.

Mort, this post was not a complaint. It was a question along with my rational. What I was asking, is how do poeple feel about Death in PvP, and what were their opinions on the matter execution style being used as a IC form of punishment. I'm -really- just looking for a conversation, not trying to right any grievance. Oro did bring up a good point, and I'm guessing that I've always played this game looking for the death I want to perma at, and assuming that Death wasn't something that was ever dealt out lightly. (as in, in the assumption its temporary). I needed to see your opinions though so I could see that parts of this I was missing. So thanks!

The other problem i see with this is it can come across as Ooc player favrotism (not saying it was the case here just that it could appear to be) After all why should one person be Permakilled by the group then strung up with no chance of being resurected whilst another is killed then given back and given the option to be raised? Why is one player given the option and another one denied it?

To waken doubt in one Holding so fast by Thy infinity, So surely anchored on The steadfast rock of Immortality.

There is not room for Death, Nor atom that his might could render void: Thou -Thou art Being and Breath, And what Thou art may never be destroyed. ~ Emily Bronte ~

It isn’t weather you live or die; it’s about weather you brought life to the character. If the character had no life you wouldn’t be asking. So the question is; do you still have the heart and the gumption to continue breathing life into the character?

This isn’t something others can answer for us, we each have to answer it when the time comes.

Ebok What I was asking, is how do people feel about Death in PvP, and what were their opinions on the matter execution style being used as a IC form of punishment.

I agree with RWG.

RWG Death is as important as you make it.

Although this is true for any IC event, robbery, torture, escaping slavery, etc. The main difference with death is that IRL it is the mortal end for that being (at least in that body), but in FR you have the very foreign concepts of raises and resurrections. So part of making this hard to connect with OOC is that its completely culturally different. Is the FR society like the one Oro mentioned from those novels, or is it just that people know there is an exceptionally rare possibility for a powerful priest to return the dead to life? I believe the latter, and as such I think death should be taken very seriously, especially in PvP.

Since I think it's hard to emphasize this strictly through RP, I think that there should only be Res or even True Res allowed to comeback from a PvP death, regardless of the state of the corpse (which is subjective anyway). This way the cost in gold is high enough (5k or 10k) to make people really consider OOC if it's appropriate. I mean, you are requesting a miracle.

I do not think it should be used as a punishment. There exist plenty of other strong ways to send a message: robbery, beatdown, kidnapping, torture...(all of which have been done too). In all of these cases the PC lives, but it's up to the player to depict how the event has affected their character without the stickyness of having friends to do a raise and feeling jerked around OOC. Killing someone can also be used to send a message too, but only to those that remain living, "Death to those that mess with me/us."

Disclaimer: Speaking generally here, not about any specific instances.

Listen here, I have died more than RwG, over 70 characters in the fugue.

I know what it feels like, and if you don't have these lame deaths from time to time, the suspense of the underdark looses it's feel, where SPAWNS can kill you. Oh, yes, you're dead, but oh look, I CAN COME BACK AFTER HAVING MY FRICKEN HEAD CHOPPED OFF BY A GOBLIN TROOPER.

If we didn't have lame deaths, there would be no epic deaths.

Long lived PCs are great, IMO. If I kill someone and want them dead -- I will do something to the body. Maybe this cheapens death, but really, if you are having a blast with your PC, and think you can come back and still have a blast, then you should come back! When I killed allavarin fireheart, I had to come back for the corpse, and my PC very nearly died! Killing people is so easy. Killing them, and getting the corpse, is way harder. If you think your story comes to an end, don't come back, mope about, and quit your PC. Yet if you feel that the story must go on... By all means, come back!

Just as a matter of intrest what was the methood of execution used to kill her? I mean was she simply beaten to death or was it a specific form of execution?

Also if you dont want someone dead why kill them to begin with?

If they really, really want a character dead, they will do something about it. Chop off the head, whatever. While I really prefer subdual, as it gives the character who just got defeated a chance to have a part in his fate or witness it directly, I can really understand why it went the way it did!

Not only does it make sense IC, but the fact that the 'easy way' of just destroying the corpse imediately wasn't taken means there was still a chance for other characters to be involved in the way things went. While the character couldn't, others did. If it happens to be a character you're fond of, and wish to keep playing, and if you manage to be sucessful, if it makes sense for the character, I'd say go ahead and get back. If you think it was a great death, and that the character's story should end, then just don't come back!

The alternative where you have a choice > The death when you just feel bitter and disappointed, by far.

After a lot of disappointing PvP [disappointing because of my reaction OOCly and how I approached PVP] I've come to this stance:

The less OOC courtesy you show me, the more fun I am having. I've been playing on -that other server- for a little now, and I have to say, too much OOC courtesy in PvP is not always a good thing. In fact it takes out all the tension. This is true also on EFU. I think no courtesy that isn't IC should be given - aside of making sure you aren't attacking a level two. Then again, if the level two is a kobold or goblin or minotaur, knock yourself out.

This is the Underdark. I can fully relate to how Ebok felt. The longer I play, also, the more I find myself agreeing with RwG - he's quite wise.

I can't speak about PvP death. My only experience with it was a totally random unexpected attack that I got beaten senseless. Thankfully there were other PC's (and I'm assuming a DM) that helped me through it.

Regarding character death ...

For me it's really all about how attached I am to a character AND the manner of death. For example: Last night I was in the middle of a DM scenario that was keeping us on our toes. We did in fact lose one party member who chose to stay dead. However, when I died it was for an extremely stupid reason - lag. IMO that's one of the most frustratingly stupid ways to die. I cannot accept perma-death based on lag - especially since I'm quite attached to that particular character. It seriously annoys me to die (with all the penalties) just because my 'puter (or the server) needed to burp.

However ... if it had been a fairly new character, or had it been an acceptable (in my eyes) death, I can accept it. Not always happily (I hate to lose), but I can accept it.

I think it's all in what you want for your character and it's story. Everybody will have a different feel for it.

Well it is pathetic that everytime that i wish to avoid someone from rez i should do something to the body... ex: chopping, dumping the body in a pit or burning it with a torch....

It is not easy to "let it go" by the players side , but then again it is worse if it does not go on. I think the main player tought is close of

"well i don't want to spend another month doing miss jane quest to once more get killed and loose the hard earning of the char again so i will ask my buddies to a rez... Also if he dies i shall lose all my current conections, and therefore will be a pain to find partys..."

Well personal interest is usually ahead of good sense/common good, as it is in life, therefore we have the need of dms to judge each situation..

about lame deaths... Well think about lag as a black fairy who once in a while casts a curse and rips some souls to her side... You may eventually have a new deity to pursuit IC...

When I read about this situation, the person being killed, and their body being sent back, I was more impressed by the killers' apparent strength. To me, as an outsider, it served as an excellent public warning. To the friends of the victim, it seemed to me like they were being put soundly in their place with forced and false kindness. All in all, I thought this death, AND its subsequent delivery of the body, were both very well put together by all involved.

WOULD WATCH AGAIN FIVE STARS

My opinion is similar to Jasede's, that too much courtesy spoils the whole thing, but courtesy shouldn't necessarily be the spice you sprinkle over a death. Being courteous to others should be at the core of all your actions, and sometimes courtesy in a dangerous game like EfU means roleplaying your dickish character like a dick. In this situation, I think sending the body back was an excellent IC political manuever and whoever decided on it probably has a very nice Intimidate skill.

Thanks for the thoughts on the matter. I figured you guys would point stuff out that I was overlooking. My biggest issue here was my own ability to put down the character. Thankfully thats settled now.

Forced OOC courtesy can, at times, sour things. However, in this case death was used as a marvelous tool - And followed up with a choice for the player on the opposing side. Either Ebok could continue with the death that he was (presumedly?) satisfied with, or he could come back with an added edge and facet to the character - One that has suffered defeat and returned. These sort of things can totally shape a PC for the better. XP comes and goes, as does loot and material stuff.

I approve!