Could someone please explain to me why it was decided that the player base here is not mature enough for unsupervised PVP in Lower, but is mature enough to play monstrous races without an app?

Because people go fucking ballistic when they get PVP'ed in Lower without a DM and only sort of ballistic when their monster PC gets PVP'ed.

Make the goblin PC sign a waiver imo.

I understand there's a long history to this, but it is definitely inconvenient to have to get a DM all the time in this area, given the NPCs apparently don't do anything anyway.

As an alternative, what about allowing consensual PvP in lower? You'd have to get a tell from your opponent, and that way if either player has some concern (like they secretly are best buddies with the beggars), it wouldn't happen, but if it's just two players that want to keep playing their character, they can continue without going DM hunting?

Because even if it is consentual, which it often is (Even if unspoken) there are NPCs who may give a damn and may decide to beat both losers down to collect some sort of "Payment" for dirtying their shit-stained pavement with blood. For example.

I have not seen any PvP on the streets of Lower that the NPC's did anything about, unless the person was attacking them directly, or members of their faction.

Generally they just cower, or jeer.

It's more about OOC issues than IC issues, I think.

And when it boils down to it, the DM's have made the ruling based on prior experience and (I imagine) a great deal of debate amongst themselves, so we should accept the limitation, work around it and rock on. 8)

In the absence of a DM people will break PvP rules more often. Furthermore, having a DM supervise PvP ensures when someone does break a PvP rule (this will happen, despite the rules being made abundantly clear numerous times), that immediate action can be taken, rather than grueling OOC nightmares when a DM arrives on the scene later.

In short, we do not trust the playerbase with acquitting themselves in PvP by the rules.

Yet the playerbase is trusted to play monstrous races without applying for them. Isn't this just assuming that the players that choose to play goblins or kobolds are more mature that those who look for PVP?

I have pros and cons to this issue based on a previous charecter of mine. Ill use my IG experiences to further explain.

I used to play Zander the harbinger, Most of his time was spent in lower.

Why a DM is needed:

When the harbingers took down the "infamous" Tiefling, It was actually the harbinger guard out side of the temple of Hoar that ganked him. The DM was given instructions by me and Dorian on what the guard should be doing and therefore everything worked out great. Dont think we would have taken him down had it not been for that NPC guard.

This is a prime reason the DMs need to supervise PvP in general, NPC reactions and rule breakage.

Why a DM would not be needed:

When the harbingers went to take down Waylon Spitworth, we litterally had to wait 20 minutes for a DM to arrive. In that time we could have taken him out while he was in the streets by the beggars, who would do nothing. But because we had to wait he had time to summon his cronies and such then end of the harbingers happened.

Most would say "why fight then, if you are out numbered", because its what the charecters would have done. It was a good death. But it could have been avoided has no DM been needed for the altercation.

Basically what it all comes down to is, ya it sucks to run around like a chicken with its head cut off tryin to find a DM. But the rules are in place for a reason. I dont like it personally, but then again I have no say in what gos on in the day to day operations of the server, Iv only been on EFU for about a month and a half.

Suck it i guess and keep a DM on speed dial ;)

PS. Players are trusted to play moster races with out an app IMO because of the tremendous prejudices against said races IG. If you play a gobbo, no one really needs any other reason to kill you. And you cant go to upper or the canal ward. Its hard to play such a race, and the DMs know this, thats why I think they allow it. It also doesnt unbalance the game.

Well..

We're going to discuss it in length today as a group. We may find some middle ground yet everyone can be happy with.

Discuss having my third party PC that was watching take advantage of the exhausted winner and assassinating them while he weak (without a DM present!). Because thats what he would do, he would wait and kill the winner.

^ Sarcasm ^ Just making a point, give an inch and miles will be taken.

I'm probably going to be flamed to hell for suggesting this, but I think this topic has been discussed to death.

In my opinion the reasons for having things the way they are is sound and reasonable, having seen first hand the OOC hell DM's go through when stuff goes wrong.

Frankly, I think the PvP policy is too convoluted. If I had it my way there would be no PvP, anywhere, without DM supervision and Monstrous NPC's would go back to being application only.

My reasoning is simple: There are a ton of engine exploits that can be used by PCs in PvP that can take place anywhere. There are tons of things that can happen in PvP that will lead to OOC arguments, and I think it is always simpler and best for all sides when a character death is involved if a DM is there to observe.

When I first came to EfU I thought having DM supervision for PvP sucked. After having been a member of the community for over a year now, I have to say it was a good idea. There are still people who neglect to call a DM and PvP in Upper Sanctuary without one.

As I understand it, the PvP rules are somewhat convoluted: You do not need a DM to PvP in lower if you are attacking a monstrous race, but if you’re a monstrous race you need a DM before attacking. However, you do not need a DM if your out in the wilderness areas with no NPCs around. You always need a DM in the city around Watch and Spellguard NPCs, unless you happen to be a member of the Watch or Spellguard.

There may be some other exception to those rules as well. I believe in keeping it simple: No PvP for anyone without DM supervision, with the possible exception for Watch / Spellguard members making an arrest.

It is the only way PvP can be determined to be fair and fun for everyone involved - that should be the key: fun for everyone involved.

Meldread No PvP for anyone without DM supervision, with the possible exception for Watch / Spellguard members making an arrest.

The NPCs do something when you're in Spellguard colours :(

Snoteye

Meldread No PvP for anyone without DM supervision, with the possible exception for Watch / Spellguard members making an arrest.

While the rules are not quite that simple, they are actually pretty straight-forward now.

You call that straight forward? :shock: I hope you were being sarcastic. I can only name a few people off the top of my head who would take the time to read that, the rest - you'd be lucky if they even skim it. (And most of the people I can list are DM's, and I'd wager even more than half of them won't read it. No offense. :P)

Seriously, it needs to be simplified down to about two sentences. That way there are no excuses, no manipulations, no nothing - simple, concrete, and understandable by everyone. That is what you want in a rule that is going to be enforced with an iron fist.

I am serious. How much time do DM's spend dealing with complaints over PvP? I'd wager that you guys spend at least 40% if not more of your time dealing with PvP related bitching, because those are the most volatile situations. How many of those situations are mostly he-said-she-said, and how many could be solved quicker, easier and more simply if a DM had overseen what took place?

I am reminded of a conversation I had with some DM's after I had a character become a councilor. I wanted to write these long and convoluted laws, but I had trouble getting people to support them and had trouble with Azzam. I was basically told this: If you want Azzam to pass your laws then you need to keep it down to two sentences or less. The DM's hate having to remember long and convoluted laws when they possess Watchmen and Spellguard NPC's.

I took the advice to heart and worked on creating laws that were two sentences or less in length. I think the same needs to apply to server rules.

....Meldread, I support you.

If you think you can condense all the PvP rules into two sentences, please PM me with an example!

Meldread

As I understand it, the PvP rules are somewhat convoluted: You do not need a DM to PvP in lower if you are attacking a monstrous race, but if you’re a monstrous race you need a DM before attacking.

Actually, you DO need a DM to initiate PvP in Lower against a monstrous race.

MadCaddies If you think you can condense all the PvP rules into two sentences, please PM me with an example!

I already did.

"No PvP without DM supervision, with the exception of the Watch or Spellguard making an arrest."

The rest of those rules can be left up to DM discretion based on the individual situation. For example, take rule #1:

Ensure your reasons for wanting to initiate PvP are justifiable. Fulfilling an assassination contract is a justifiable reason. Attacking somebody just because "you can" is not a justifiable reason.

Who is going to ensure that the PvP is justifiable? The DM who shows up. Not the player.

Take rule #2:

If you just want to mug somebody, try to aim your fire at more influential PCs. You also do not need to kill in order to mug.

Who decides who is an influential PC? The DM who shows up. Not the player.

Take rule #3:

If (you know) you are much higher level than your target, be considerate. Nobody cares that your 3-attacks/round fighter can smack a level 2 beggar upside down in half a round, and the beggar certainly doesn't.

Who is going to actually know for certain that someone else is higher level than the target, and that the attacker acts in a considerate manor? The DM who shows up.

The same is true for just about every rule listed. Who determines what is a reasonable amount of time to remain on the server after PvP? Who is going to be there to witness corner sneaking and transition abuse in PvP if there is no DM to witness it? So on and so forth. Almost every one of those rules, with only a few exceptions are guidelines and not hard and fast rules due to the endless number of situations that crop up. Who determines what is fair, and what is acceptable conduct on the server? The DM.

That is why I believe there needs to be a DM to witness all PvP, regardless of location, and regardless of situation.

If people create characters knowing that they are hot-headed, and easily provoked into violence, then they are just going to have to accept that sometimes a DM just is not going to be around when they need them. They need to take that into consideration before they create their characters and realize that it is going to be an issue.

For me, personally, I've chosen to ignore all of that convoluted stuff and embrace the simple rule: "Whenever I am going to engage in PvP get a DM first." It solves 99.9% of all my problems as a player and ensures that should any situation arise on another players end that it can be solved by the DM who shows up.

I suggest we send a tell to someone there may be PvP with them before engaging, to see if it'd be fair and get their take. I did it once and it didn't have much of an effect ICly, and the guy thanked me for telling him of the possible PvP ahead of time (I was on a 'Goblin Hunt' with Razzle the Goblin singer at the crone, didn't go into PvP).

But that's me, all right?

The element of surprise disappears. "Hey, PvP coming!" Guy downs invis potion and runs away. Which I might add, perfectly legit.

I don't understand why allowing goblin/kobold subraces without an application should have us open up free PVP in Lower. For whatever reason, people like to get offended over PVP. How does being a goblin or a kobold offend anyone?

If anything we're discussing it and we'll probably bring up a modified policy for PVP in Lower.

In my opinion, it's to avoid pvp folks from getting pvp-raped in their minds and not having any one to turn to for immediate answers.

If a player gets owned/killed/robbed/etc, and it was totally out of the blue (like most pvp attacks are), it's a shock to the player. If their new, or a sensitive player (nothing wrong with that), DM guidance and such may be needed.

Honestly, it keeps the most volatile portion of the server under control where in the past, it has raged out of control.

DM supervision for Pvp in front of NPCs seems necessary to me.

I hardly ever pvp, but boy if i ever pvp in lower with a weak pc, you can be sure i'll promise gold to whoever is nearbye to give me a hand. If it's LG tracking me, i'll grab Mary as hostage or something. Whatever.

NPCs always should react, even if it's just to have a witness of the crime when the buddies of the mugged guy will come asking questions.

Adding to this IC question the lack of maturity if us players, plus the possible XPs you can get for pvp when a dm likes how it's done...

I understand it's troublesome when someone is taunting you and you can't beat the hell out of him, but you can postpone the pvp. If having a dm present rules out the element of surprise, it's rather good news, as it means both players actually have a chance of winning. Surprise is so much the main element of succes in pvp that it comes close to unfair when you invisibile/paralyse/strike/fugue out of the blue.

That was just my 2c.

I thought you did need an app for goblin PC (crumples up his goblin app/good thing I didnt send it yet), no wonder there are so many of them running around all the sudden.

Is it just me or does anybody else think a goblin would stand a better chance in upper than being spotted by the chaotic’s of lower? That is, at least until they have a wing to hide under or a reputation of their own. But I would think one of the first people in lower to see a goblin would in the least stab him in the back and leave him amongst the other rotting corpses. Mostly they would probbaly mob action and draw and quarter em.

This isn't really a new take on an old topic. This part of the topic has been discussed several times, in a number of ways.

What it comes down to is this:

The DMs, and likely a majority of players want to let people play goblins and kobolds without an application.

The DMs originally were open to PvP of these goblins/kobolds without a DM to supervise.

A tiny minority of jack-asses carp'ed about PvP of goblins/kobolds so loudly and vocally that it entirely ate up hours and hours of the DM's lives.

The DMs decided to avoid this carping, they'd ban PvP of goblins/kobolds in Lower without a DM to oversee.

Seriously, consider this from a DM's perspective--when players get into OOC fights it may take several days to actually resolve the issue. DMs need to spend an hour or two reading chat logs, looking at screenshots, they'll spend several more hours reading through combat logs, and often another hour or two talking to the players involved.

One PvP situation that goes sour because no DM was present can ultimately take up to eight to ten hours of a DM's personal time. That is time he's not running quests, making loot, answering the forums, or just living his own life.

If its been creating that kind of problem, I'm almost tempted to say something I never say--"Give the DMs a damn break already!"

Because these threads now take up another hour or two of time from the DMs who continue to try to read through them and explain the matter. Time I'm sure they prefer to spend elsewhere.

Or is your ability to kill a goblin/kobold without catching a DM, that five minutes of PvP you want for fun, really worth ten hours of another human's life when it goes badly?

Or do you really think goblins/kobolds shouldn't be a playable race for the entire player base just because YOUR one character really would kill every one of them on sight and never ever just ignore a goblin/kobold in Lower for any reason?

Oroborus, Without going into great detail, you are missing the point entirely. While it has been explained to me that the DM's feel the non-app goblins and kobolds approach has been somewhat sucessful, the point of the post was this. "if we, as a playerbase are not mature enough for unsupervised PVP in lower, why is the same playerbase considered mature enough to play these races without an app. Personally, my PC had no intention of PVP with the goblin he encountered. Said PC normally just chases them to the next transition while laughing or yelling at them. What brought this on was a goblin telling said PC that he was tired of the racism. Therefore, as much as I do usually tend to agree with your well thought out and intelligent replies, I fell you have struck out on this one. It is a new take on an old topic.

Apples and oranges. I don't believe playing a goblin or kobold requires a special level of personal maturity- Indeed, if anything it requires the opposite! Poop, anyone?

As repeated earlier on in the thread, and many threads previous, we're discussing it internally. It comes up so very often, and amongst the DM team our views differ on the issue- With a variety of good points made on both sides.

So, you feel goblins shouldn't be a playable race period?

I, indeed, was not certain I followed your actual suggestion. It was vague, which is why I ended my statements with a few questions--for the clarification.

Lock it now, IMO. This discussion is old and tired. Hmm... let me see if I have that old animation from the Gurb... darn. You get the point.

I personally wish goblins where app only however..........

Wish goblins where a race that where legal in upper but considered 2nd class citizeins. I mean its not worth it being an app race when you die when moments after you log in.

I simply feel playing monstrous races should be "app only" as they were before. Just my opinion.

I imagine a bold new age for reasonably prudent goblins in Lower Sanctuary, those that know how to obey. <_<;

What about kobolds?

Kobolds can go to hell imo.

Just cut all the crap and say 'PvP requires a DM to be present (and actively watching).' for a golden catch-all rule. There, done, you've saved everyone involved paragraphs more of pointless forum bickering, and you can get back to RPing a stream of golden nuggets straight into our collective minds, IG. 8)

I disagree. I believe a catch-all rule like the one you suggest would be detrimental to the server - if EfU is to be understood as a place where you can't truly feel safe anywhere, and not only because of NPC spawns, but also because of your PC enemies, a rule like this would be a severe limitation. DMs cannot be present at all times, it's simply impossible.

I kinda feel like we're veering off track, so to conclude:

1.) At the moment, being a goblin or a kobold has too many serious disadvantages for us to make it application only. 2.) Free PvP in Lower has been tried and caused many players and DMs a number of problems.

If there's anything fresh to bring up, feel free to start a new thread.