I know what my expectations are, but I would be interested in hearing some examples of what the player group as a whole thinks is a proper portrayal of certain low stats in game.

I follow one basic guidline when guaging the appropriateness of a characters action in reguards to his/her stats. I feel that stats represent a permanent and pervasive ability (or disability if low), and should be played as such. Let me say this again, they are permanent and pervasive, meaning they color any and all interactions, thoughts, etc, that the character has in the game world.

For example: The 8 Int half orc min max battle monster (you all know it, the 8/8/6 int/wis/cha type things) that are so often seen in game. 8 Intelligence is a disability, as it is lower than the normal human. As compared to a normal human (run of the mill Joe or Jill) this person is going to look stupid. Pehaps he doesn't know how to count or read due to his low Int, and is unable to learn anything quickly. According to the definition of the stat, Int is the way this dummy reasons, his ability to take new information and formulate plans of action in a coherent manner. He is lower than normal, so he is permanently (so long as it remains low) unable to come up with good plans of action as compared to his team mates. He will not understand things that are going on quite so quickly, and perhaps due to his mild mental retardation (I use the term medically here) is unable to understand he is being swindled out of a lot of extra coin just now by the high int high cha thief.

The Beggar wrote: Have fun, and play smart. Really. I don’t want to see characters with the 8Int 8Wis coming up with masterful plans and such

Of course, but that doesn't mean a 8 int character will never have any idea about what to do. A 8 int half-orc who may have worked many times as a mercenary on the surface likely knows far more about team work and general strategy than a 16 int wizard who never took part in a battle. Even if he is not able to elaborate a plan by himself, he may still come up with one simply because he already had to execute such a plan in the past.

This post is partially correct, the low int character would have a basic knowledge of combat based on his perpetual training. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't understand why anything was done by the commander, only that it worked. He would realize that the plan worked in the past, but be unable to understand when and how to properly use that plan to apply it to a curent situation, thus bungling things up for the team time and time again. Remember, this character at 8int would be the Half Wit, the Village Idiot, and slow on the uptake.

I'll give an example I think elucidates the point. Perhaps the brawny half orc warrior had a commander that used a flanking maneuver in teh past to get the better of some foes, and it worked flawlessly. Infact, it worked so well it became a staple strategy of the team to great effect. With the leader gone, the brawny and stupid 8 Int half orc takes charge (by his reasoning, he has been a warrior longer than anyone else, so he therefore must be the best qualified for the position). He sees a group of gnolls up on a ledge overlooking a fairly large stream. He thinks to himself, hm, I have a good plan, we'll flank them. He grunts the puts the plan into action, the other team mates look uncertain but he is absolutely sold on the idea. It worked in the past, it will work now. He forcefully divides teh party, and half cross the river to get around to flank the gnolls while the other half proceed with him.

The attack begins, as he rushes in to break the ranks--just as he had done in the past. Unfortunately for him he not only failed to request the mage in the morning to memorize an area effect spell to cover the charge, he divided his forces across a river that couldn't be crossed downstream to flank. His half a team died quickly at the hands of the superior gnoll force, and they all fed well on half orc, medium rare.

In the example, the dumb half orc knew the plan, but due to his lack of reasoning ability make tactical errors in judgement. The plan was flawless as he had learned it. His execuation and application of it in his situation showd a lack of understanding.

With a high wisdom, he might have realized something was wrong about the whole plan, though not figured out what. He would have remained stupified, perhaps arguing with the team that he knows good plans but uncertain as to what to do to get that bad feeling out of his gut that if he did it, he might not end up alive.

Brief outline of how I play low stats:

8-6 dex. Clumbsy. Will misfire wands sometimes purposely and dispel you in combat. Will emote being awkward. Maybe will not be able to make easy get aways when flustered. Cast spells on the wrong people if you cast.

8-6 cons. Unhealthy. Hacks and wheezes. Is upset by strange and sudden alterations in the temperature. Does not like lengthy trips.

8-6 int. "Dat sounds good." Go with the flow. Purposely confuse simple things with one another, like the difference between twenty coins and ten coins for example. I tend to use real life examples of personal experiences I've had with handicapped folks, though never in a derogatory way. If stuck in a tight situation, resort to simple commands and crushing, rather than the obvious solution.

8-6 str is pretty obvious, so no real need to go in depth here.

8-6 cha. Ah the social degenerate. The loser, loner, beggar, outcast, cranky bastard. The old man that lives in the shack that no one talks about in the woods. People disconnected from what normal conversation is like. When you get to six charisma, some PC's might even leap to conclusions that pissing all over someone is a reasonable answer to a question when they are talked to.

The dropping pants option just amuses me more than anything, but, I try to imagine some war veteran living out in the woods alone, separated from social contact with other humans for the past ten years and has brutal flashbacks, when I tackle 6 charisma.

That's all for now.

Strength

A character with low Strength lacks muscle mass. He receives penalties to hit in melee combat and penalties to damage with most weapons. He can't climb well, lift much weight or exert much force. While this might mean a character without athletic traning, there are other options.

Weight factors into Strength - the larger you are, the greater your potential. For Moderately low scores (6 to 9) you might be large without muscle tone: you can throw that weight around, but you are weak for your size. For lower scores you might be emaciated: an apparition with sunken cheeks and fleshles limbs.

Age is another explanation. A low-Strength character could be old and frail, which works well for spellcasters, as age gives appearance of experience and knowledge. Perhaps a character is particulary young. Playing a youngster has it's advantages: adults ignore or underestimate childrens, and a child could be more flexible and easily hidden, but you should avoid life skills such as Knowledge, Profession or Craft. Regardless, experience translates into maturity, and with maturity could come Strength.

You might have personality quirks centered around your meager muscles. Since you can't participate in physical labor, you might see yourself about it, assuming every powerful frame holds a weak mind. You might take a "those who can't do, teach" attitude and direct the labor of others, or you might be envious of or deferential to those stronger than yourself. Even this most physical of abilities offers plenty of opportunities for roleplaying.

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Dexterity

A low-Dexterity character suffers penalties for ranged attacks, Armor Class, Reflex saves and any skills requiring coordination or agility. You're useless at moving quietly, can't mantain balance, neither throw nor catch well and routinely dodge right into attacks. "She's clumsy" is the first response to a low Dexterity, but several other possibilities exist.

A handicap might be the cause of a low Dexterity, such as the classic peg-leg of a pirate. Perhaps you recently lost an eye: the loss of depth perception and peripehral vision could explain a low Dexterity. Equilbrium-altering wounds could be thereason. Perhaps your wizard was too near the origin of a Shout spell, or maybe your priest heard her god's true voice.

Alternatively, you could have tremors and poor motor control: you could be a wizard whose studies of the unknown left her with twitches she can neither stop not explain, or a veteran whose constant drinking has dulled the memory of was but leaves her unsteady. Subterranean races often risk cave-ins, and many walk away with injuried limbs and frayed nerves. Such people might be clumsy, but they are hardly inept, and their conditions can at least lend them a haunting history.

Roleplaying a low Dexterity depends on the score's rationale. Those hindered by a physical problem might use it to avoid hard or dangerous labor, or they might refuse assistance to prove they're as good as anyone else. You might be perpetually apologetic or constantly upset over your blunders. Alternatively, you might make jokes about your apparent ineptitude or develop excuses to cover for it ("Somebody keeps moving that plant!"). The key to roleplaying a low Dexterity lies in how the character feels about her fumbling and how she expresses it.

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Constitution

Low-Constitution characters have penalties on hit points and Fortitude saves, as well as Concentration checks when casting spells. They are easily knocked out and easily killed, since having poor hitpoints is a fatal flaw for an adventurer.

Many of the physical descriptions of a low Strength or Dexterity can translate well for a low Constitution. Characters who are extremely underweight or overweight might be easily winded or unable to resist injury. An eldery character's health could be ravaged by age. You could have old wounds (such as an arrow through the lung) or be a plague survivor. Old wounds explain a lack of stamina while emphasizing your will to survive.

More dramatically, you might be the victim of a long-term disease. For example, tuberculosis can take years to kill, leaving victims weak and coughing up blood, but Doc Holliday was the most feared gunman in the West even as tuberculosis was killing him. In fantasy settings, even more insidious illnesses exist, sapping your life while allowing limited activity. A character facing his own death head on and refusing to wait for it engenders respect.

A low Constitution often shows itself in personal behaviours. You might constantly push yourself too far and then collapse until forced to move again, or lean against the wall and rest at every opportunity. You might have remedies or medicines you constantly prepare to bolster your Strength, or obstinately ignore your problems. Roleplaying a low Constituion relies more on what you're doing and how you're doing it than what you say.

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Intelligence

A character with a low Intelligence learns slowly and reasons poorly. She has penalties on the number of skill points per level and on any skills based on learning.

Some thought should be applied to why you have such a low Intelligence. You might have never had an opportunity to study, or perhaps you were forcibly banned from doing so. You could've grown up on the streets, among war refugees, or as a slave, where any attempt at learning was severely punished. You might have been raised by animals, a fantasy classic for characters with a nature bent. While brilliant people might come from such backgrounds, most survive by intuition, guile, perception, and will - in other words, traits associated with Wisdom and Charisma, not Intelligence.

For a great challenge, you might be an amnesiac, forgetting anything more than 24 hours old. Head trauma occasionally causes such problems. You are reborn every morning, with no guide save those around you and whatever notes you left for yourself. You may need solid roleplaying skills before trying something this extreme.

When playing a low-Intelligence character you could play it for laughs, as with the barbarian who claims "newly discovered" towns and names them after her father. Or you could play it for terror by taking offense at people talking down to you and snapping into vidictive rages. You might insist on having a say in any discussions and want your not so helpful ideas respected, or you might keep your mouth shut to avoid looking the fool. You could repeat others' suggestions as your own or constantly request more time to work through problems. Remember that a character with a low Intelligence can learn and reason through everyday things, they simply can't do it quickly or reliably. You needn't stiffle your every creative thought, as long as you aren't constantly brilliant or quick.

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Wisdom

Someone with a low Wisdom lacks common sense, perception, intuition and willpower. He is penalized on both his will saves and skills involving untrained experience or awareness.

A poor Wisdom score is the hardest to explain, since it covers such a broad area. Wisdom is something one gains with age, so you might consider a young character to explain a low Wisdom. Take care with this, since a well-played low-Wisdom child will quickly get himself into trouble and might drag the party down with him. Perhaps you come from a culture vastly different than the local norm: detail this culture with your DM, with both good and bad points, and stick with it. You'll miss local cultural cues, make assumptions based on false premises, and argue against things the rest of the party takes for granted ("Letting women drink ale instead of wine ? It will corrupt their souls!"). You wouldn't be stupid, merely ignorant of the local custom.

When playing a low-Wisdom character, make it clear that the party can't rely on you in the long term, In the short term, during the course of a fight or while exploring a dungeon, they can keep an eye on you and trust you will do your part. But if left on watch alone you might fall asleep, get engrossed in spell research, or otherwise lose focus. In delicate negotiations you'll let secrets slip or take offense where wiser diplomats would not. You might forget to mention things you've learned until a critical moment, or assume that your companions must know things, and thus never mention them. The party should probably put another PC to watch over you, just to make sure your impulsiveness doesn't endanger them.

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Charisma

A low Charisma comes from a lack of faith in yourself, translating directly into an inability to interact with people. The character is penalized on all skills that involve social interaction, as well as any non-skill interaction checks.

When dealing with a low Charisma you should remember that these personality traits don't appear without cause - no one is born with a 3 Charisma. What caused you to lose faith in yourself ? Possibly your family or culture valued everything you were poor at and never praised your skills: shy to an extreme, you avoid conversation for fear of being insulted, belittle your abilities, and view any comment as criticism. You might be an escaped slave: deeply ashamed of your past, you either lash out verbally or meekly follow suggestions as orders. You might have once had personal faith, now shattered by some terrible event. This trauma need not have been your fault - you believe if to be so even if the world holds you blameless. An accidental killing, a failure of nerve on the battlefield, the inability to save a loved one, or failling a test of character can shake your self respect. Once that is lost, it is hard to gain the respect of others.

Alternatively, you might be extremely ugly. Not just homely, but malformed to the point where children scream and woman faint. faced with such reactions you see yourself as an outcast while still desperately wanting to be accepted by society. Note that this is very different from the high-Charisma half-orc who looks like ten miles of bad road but whose magnetism unites an army - appearance matters to Charisma only if you let it matter.

When roleplaying a poor-Charisma character, keep in mind why the character has such a low score and run with it. This might mean never vocing a suggestion (even if you know what to do), or voicing every single suggestion loudly and authoritatively - since if it isn't accepted it damages your already fragile sense of self. Belittle NPCs to prove you're better than them, and even make jibes at other PCs' expense (though not too often, or you'll reduce other people's enjoyment of the game). Here's another idea: start whispering ideas in character to another player, letting him voice them to the group - since your character thinks no one listens to her ideas, she can contribute without putting her ego at risk.

This was taken from another NWN Ravenloft focused server by DM Knas.

I believed it was very informative in giving guidance to what is the roleplay expected from low stats or stats in general.

I agree with your take on low intelligence; if you have 8, you should not be able to handle yourself as good as others. As TheBeggar gave for example, you should not be savvy on appraising an item and should be likely to get ripped off hardcore. For low wisdom, I think it is similar but slightly different. Is it a wise choice to go down into the sewers with a person you do not know? Should you let the other person hold your item or "borrow it"? I think those are situations where low wisdom would dictate that they are not wise enough to choose the right thing. The biggest thing with low wisdom is that I think you are easily manipulated, coaxed into things, and perhaps made a slave and are unable to find the wisdom to break out of it or the balls (excuse my terminology) to say that ain't going down. Just my two cents.

The only thing I would say different is that I tend to give really socially inept or outrageously rude characters high charisma. I figure if their personality (even though rude, creepy, or disturbing) is memorable then even though it is a crappy personality, it deserves a high charisma score.

For me low charisma score characters should be forgettable. But, that is just me.

The issue I think gets forgotten often; if you have a 8 CHA but a 10 in persuade-there is no reason you can't role play a persuasive character. The Charisma may be low, you're not a natural at it, but you've had training.

I always think of Grima Wyrmtongue in this situation. Ugly, slimy, weasely, and yet boy could you talk you into something.

Likewise, an 8 INT fighter who was a mercenary may know more about tactics than a 16 INT wizard--but that fighter should have taken a full lore score and perhaps even stuck a Skill Focus Lore on his sheet.

Again, he may lack the natural talent for something, but skills demonstrate that he's studied to make up for it.

On another server, I was once told a 8 Cha PC wouldn't be intimidating--until I rolled Intimidate for the DM and low and behold with a -1 from my 8 CHA I still got a roll of 28 because of skills and Skill Focus Intimidate.

I hope people can take away at least just one thing from these threads, and that's playing 6 charisma and playing it more than just, "he looks ugly." Imagine how much 6 strength would hinder you in combat with a melee weapon. Your 6 charisma should be hindering you just as much in social situations.

And more than just 'He's gruff, but gets on with everyone else in spite of it.'

7 charisma too.

Indeed. Though it's likely that most of the target audience we are trying to address will never read this thread, I hope the horse has suitably been beaten to death on the topic of properly playing low charisma by now.

I remember when I had Low cha and didnt know how to Rp it. MAn Npcs where mean to me ROFL.

Gosh how I love these threads. I always try to play a character with a serious flaw of some kind in his/her stats. Baltazar was, well, I suppose most folks could guess which stat he was low in.

With Vigilon, it's beena bit harder (sometimes it was just me forgetting). I honestly quickslotted a bunch of emotes for him related to his issues, but I just plumb forgot to click them. In recognition of this and still wanting to reflect his issues, I've taken to a (perhaps) more subtle means of reflecting his issue, courtesy of a couple of misclicks made in combat one day that led me to a brainstorm....

So, the bottom line here is that it's not necessarilly too late to play your character's weak spots. You just might need to emphasize them a bit more or in a different way than you first imagined. I do not recommend "suddenly" getting clumsy or stupid, however. Let it develop in such a way that it makes sense until it gets to where it should have been to begin with.

PD

I might post later in this thread with a complete diagnosis on the topic, but for now I just want to throw a little comment out about Intelligence.

A Low Intelligence is not always the same, "Youse dere! I dont lok yur face! So uh... I do this!" [Throws a hammer into a mans face] (I'm assuming we're dealing with a low int, average everything else)

In most cases, the ability to speak is something that one learns rather quickly. Its not in the lack of ability to make real sounding words that Intelligence must be displayed. It can easily be seen in the inability to grasp complicated problems, the tendency to forgot what someone just told you, perhaps the inability to read or write, etc... I find it pathetically unrealistic and uncreative that NWN set a standard Intelligence for someones ability to pronounce words. I'm not denying that as a possible manifestation, but there is a distinct difference between a six, and an eight Intelligence.

You can be intelligent, and unable to communication efficiently through speech, despite understanding the meaning of a million words. You can be a moron and pronounce words correctly, even if you don't understand what they mean.

I know a few people that are bareily over the disabled standard set. They try so hard to learn things, It just breaks my heart. They cannot understand anything beyond the most basic ideas, and its effects cascade through their lives. But! They can easily tell when someone is dangerous or when something is a bad idea, they can still perceive the world, and communicate, sometimes quite clearly, their frustrations. Doesn't help them learn any better.

I guess my point is, you can be an utter moron, and still speak, and get along in a social way. An eight stat is crippling, though it is not disabling.

My fighter, Sange, has eight Charisma. Fatalistic, talks like a hick, and never takes off her helm where others can see her due to (FOIG). Originally I thought these things more than justified the Charisma score I'd given her - she was supposed to be like a cowboy movie character, not saying much, hardbitten, and quick to violence.

However, she has a high willsave (Iron Will plus items). Therefore, I don't see why she should have to have a weak or retiring personality - although I have been trying to make her more neutral and less forceful in giving battle orders.

Following some advice from a DM she uses Eagles Splendor to make a quest sending or have to have an argument with somebody. as well as no longer demanding the best loot - something I admit is much more suitable to a taciturn and jaded soul - as well as no longer voicing forceful opinions expressing her contempt of things or people.

Next I read in a post that Eight Charisma characters should need guidance, they shouldn't be able to make their own desicions.

I think this goes too far. Eight Charisma is SLIGHTLY below average. Eight STR can carry slightly less , and hit slightly less hard, than can a 10 STR. They difference isn't substantial, they don't need people to help them get out of bed and help them get dressed. Why the massive deficit on Charisma?

If we apply the same reasoning across the board, then 12 Charisma is suddenly a massive leap from 10, and at 14, people should fall to their knees on sight of you.

If eight Charisma is : repulsive, weak willed, cowardly, lacking totally in willpower, cannot do anything without guidance from others, then what is six, or Three, charisma?

The point buy system makes for a great deal of predictability and similar builds per class, and I understand that it must be quite boring for a DM to see identical "optimized" stat sheets everywhere they look. Nor should people fail to reflect their low stats on a roleplay server.

But I think the push to make Eight (slightly below average) a greater distance from Ten (average) gets a little too hard sometimes. There just isn't that much difference between the two in my opinion.

This is great advice! Keep in mind though that some people are just naturally bad with some stats like charisma, they were born with a lack of talent. Take those of us with Asperger's Syndrome for example, though they still might really put their effort into it and learn to be persuasive, or charismatic even.

People with any stat higher then 12 were not only born with talent but worked on that talent, part of the reason why you never see people in NWN with more then 2 stats above 16 with out penalties to other stats. Some of us are born with higher IQs and others bulked up more in adolescence then others, but we can still choice to improve/waste that talent.

Also, make sure to not confuse the effects of low wisdom with low intelligence, it happens far too often.

I think the answer to Kaelle's post is quite simple. When the DM team announced the new and politically correct (for EFU) definition of charisma, I took it as a response to minmaxing that had been going on for some time. Honestly, it is the easiest stat to live without from a game mechanics perspective for most characters. As a result, it was regularly dropped as low as possible by as many characters as possible in favor of jacking up their other stats. Heck, why not?!?

So, to rectify this, the team seems to have tried to make a higher charisma more desirable: changing its definition, broadening its uses, and so forth. Personally, I have not seen the interpretation that Kaelle did about low CHA characters needing guidance and being weak-willed in decision making (that still seems like a WIS issue), but I have seen the other changes.

My low CHA dwarf was made before the new and improved CHA rules, and I played him as such - he wasn't at all weak willed, but he was kinda dirty, smelly, rude, uncouth, prone to other social problems, and not at all a leader in the classic sense. As a leader when forced to because of his higher search and spot score, he took a "follow me and watch where I step or die" attitude and certainly caused a number of deaths and dismemberments as a result. If he bothered to make advice to people, it was in a "take it for what it's worth you stupid idiot" vein. I don't recall him ever giving a flip about politics, who the leaders were of a group, or anything much along those lines. He was prone to wander away from a group if they got too chatty and go about his business. In short, he was NOT a nice guy. Was he competent, smart, savvy, strong, stout, and anything else in comparison? Heck yeah. Did he suffer for having a low CHA? In several ways, yes. He succeeded ONCE in over a year of play on a persuade roll, losing out on untold amounts of cash and prizes, constantly failed his appriase rolls with merchants costing him more for goods, and becuase of his inability to lead or be social, missed out on a lot of good quests because people either wouldn't work with him or he wouldn't work with people! Additionally, he missed out on a lot of RP chances in his faction and outside as well. Just something to think about.

Kaelle

...Next I read in a post that Eight Charisma characters should need guidance, they shouldn't be able to make their own desicions.

I think this goes too far. Eight Charisma is SLIGHTLY below average. Eight STR can carry slightly less , and hit slightly less hard, than can a 10 STR. They difference isn't substantial, they don't need people to help them get out of bed and help them get dressed. Why the massive deficit on Charisma?

If we apply the same reasoning across the board, then 12 Charisma is suddenly a massive leap from 10, and at 14, people should fall to their knees on sight of you.

If eight Charisma is : repulsive, weak willed, cowardly, lacking totally in willpower, cannot do anything without guidance from others, then what is six, or Three, charisma?

The point buy system makes for a great deal of predictability and similar builds per class, and I understand that it must be quite boring for a DM to see identical "optimized" stat sheets everywhere they look. Nor should people fail to reflect their low stats on a roleplay server.

But I think the push to make Eight (slightly below average) a greater distance from Ten (average) gets a little too hard sometimes. There just isn't that much difference between the two in my opinion.

So just to be certain I know enough about charisma: You can still look real good, you just have to have the personality of a scorpion in the process? The reason why I ask is because I currently have a sexy necromancer in jail and while she is rather a mean person she has a charisma score of 8, so I don't feel like Iv'e RP'd her correctly.

IMHO, yes. But that's just me. The EFU way asks that you not only include physical beauty and leadership, but also force of will and personal gravitas. I think it is possible to be a physically attractive person but still be repellent. Yes, at first, the person may seem to have high charisma because you go "Wow. he/she's hot. I'd really like to get to know her/him better." But, on further inspection, you find that the physical attractiveness is overpowered by something else about the person that is just a total turnoff. I remember a particular female celebrity from my youth. I thought she was gorgeous, funny, and smart - but that was her character. the first time I saw her open her own mouth and speak on a talk show, the attractiveness was gone - she was shallow and not very bright.

Similarly, one could also be not much to look at, but once you start getting to know the person, he/she is highly charismatic. A lot of major world leaders of past and present are like this. There was just something about them that made people want to follow them. Heck, they might even be dumb as post, but still they are just so darn likable you can't help but do what they ask.

petey512 So just to be certain I know enough about charisma: You can still look real good, you just have to have the personality of a scorpion in the process? The reason why I ask is because I currently have a sexy necromancer in jail and while she is rather a mean person she has a charisma score of 8, so I don't feel like Iv'e RP'd her correctly.

From what I have seen and read, or been told. there is no proper way to roll play charisma. It seems to be at the whim of the DM watching at the time. Recently, I created what I thought was a PC with some sense of realism, applied for a perk, and was denied because of charisma. Not that I give a hoot, because I still have my fun, but I still disagree with what I was told my charisma should have been for that PC, as I can find no source of information to back up the reasoning. In short, play your PC, have fun, don't worry about it. Just do what you think is right.