So here's the idea: post tactical advice, followed by examples where you think they don't apply for rp reasons, and followed by what's exploiting and what's not. That way DMs can also chime in to say "hey, this is bad"

Here's the basic that should keep most people alive (a bit longer):

- Heal. Heal when there's time. You're in that ogre cave, don't wait for the fight to heal. That's the one advice where i'd say no rp reason save being a masochist can make you not heal... And i can't see how that would be exploiting either.

- Use bottlenecks. Better the enemy be surrounded than you. That probably doesn't apply if you've PCs eager to fight (ex: low WIS barbarian, drunken dwarf and what not). Risk of exploit is luring: don't draw enemies one at a time so that they're always fighting 1 vs your team. Go in plain sight to draw them all.

- Concentrate attacks on one enemy. If you're surrounded by 4 agonizing trolls, you deserve to die. RP reasons not to do this would likely include wanting to size up to one enemy alone, being a class that is not familiar with combat, etc. Anything about exploiting here?

- Get out of clouds. Stinking clouds and others. Once you're in that cloud, you're fair game. Move out before resuming the fight. Don't moonwalk when you move out: that's exploit as you're preventing the enemy from attacking you.

- use ressources One blur potion will save you lots of healing. Do the maths. One mind ward will prevent most spells to render you unable to act. Don't use ressources... er, for example if you want to die. Risk of exploit: don't metagame the ressources you need until it's clear you do (ex: seeing because you OOCly know those invisible slayers are below Hoar, etc.)

kill spellcasters first They take time to get started, but when they do, they can be real bad. That means you must've identified them as spellcasters though.

trust your instinct If something is starting wrong, don't wait to drink those potions of blur/seeing/invisibility and so on. Better be safe than sorry. Don't be "safe" rather than "sorry" if your rp doesn't match (ex: ex LG paladins prefering their own safety than the on of the people they said they'd protect)

Feedback, comments, add-ins?

The holy bible for any tank that hopes to survive and rock any ass at all.

Nothing new here, but anybody who doesn't know it, needs to.

When you see that hoard of zombies, down a blur, it's cheaper than the four serious healing potions you'll down because you didn't. <.<

Tactics are for wimps. Real men fight without strategy.

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/15/15073/why-characters-die-the-true-story/index.html

This is a confusing thread. The priority in EFU is roleplay - we are in danger of talking more about exploits than playing the game. Sorry!

Tactical advice should only apply to characters with a tactical brain. If you are playing a barbarian or anyone who rates glory over safety - don't read this!

The idea of the thread certainly is NOT to promote tactics over rp.

I'd rather see this as advice for new players, as being familiar with the engine (including tactics) does make a huge difference. I've seen many pcs fall because the player probably doesn't have those simple tips in mind. And few of us enjoy stupid deaths.

The thread is to help players not get killed stupidly, that's all. It certainly won't save them from getting their ass kicked often, thats the beauty of EfU.

If we are in "danger of talking about exploits", then that's not a bad thing to me: pointing out exploits is useful, that's also the idea of the thread.

On a side note, I'm quite familiar with the rp argument, but i must say i find it disturbing to systematically oppose "good rp" with "good builds/tactics/etc.", as if the people just playing for the sake of lvling a pc they enjoy were to be tagged poor rpers, and as if good rp could only be done on poor builds.

There have been plenty of these threads over the last few months, as The Beggar pointed out. All of what was written here has been discussed at length elsewhere! Most of them are stickies, too!

Oh, btw. Love your title, LPFF. ;)

Amazing what can be learned from a 6th century BC guy...

Sun Tzu said (the Art of War): What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage.

He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

There are only three simple tactics I have that would greatly save any player/party from doom:

First, Let the scout/trapspringer go first and do their job. Always walk 6 seconds behind them in case of large area affect traps. (S)he can likely use Evasion or their ridiculous reflex save to avoid death; you, and your party, likely cant.

Second, use your darn potions and magic items. They are meant to be used, thats why we get them. Use potions when not within striking distance of a monster and healing wands/belts/gloves/rods when actively in combat.

Third, don't assume victory. Ever had that 'injured' state when fighting a 'near death' creature? Victory is assumed.....right until that creature crits you for 50+ and you die. If you are wounded and or that boss/powerful creature is still alive running around somewhere, you better act as if it's got full HP and coming for your ass. Overkill is always better than underkill.

Gotta love any Sun Tzu quotes. Nicely done.

Tactics are pretty logical in my opinion, keep to doorways and bottlenecks in your favor. Don't run off like an idiot and charge into battle on your own...

Another would be logical but doesn't get followed very often. Don't go into battle with people you've just met.... It's funny how many times i've died on a quest because some low charisma nuetral evil guy didn't help my guy when he was getting beat on...

Letsplayforfun i find it disturbing to systematically oppose "good rp" with "good builds/tactics/etc."

I don't think any of use would really go with. I've witnessed great roleplay in a disciplined, tactical group, and it takes some beating. Equally I'm all for new players picking up how to play the game without getting whacked too bad early on. The trouble with tactics, once you have mastered the basics, is that they don't apply to everyone, so a party leader should not assume they have a disciplined, compliant, tactically-aware team behind them. "Running off like an idiot and charging into battle" might simply be what that character does.

So my tactical tip is - check your teammates for that wild, glassy eyed look before you hire them. :)

Also, be aware, that if you're a 26-STR-when-raging barbarian with a greatsword and 19 AC, you can run ahead - just make sure you've downed enough potions/used enough items to survive until your party catches up.

Everyone hates a stupid barbarian who charges ahead of the group and then runs with a bee line of 10 trolls gunning for him, who subsequently AoO everyone in the party ad wipe.

Everyone loves a barbarian who downs blur, barkskin, carries healing items/potions and holds off a line of ten trolls, dealing 40 damage/round, until your party moves up and massacres everything from the flank.

Bottom line - if you want to run ahead and be heroic, make sure you can take the heat! If not, at least try to give an indication, (screaming "RUN!" is always a good one) that you're about to disengage the enemy and make a run for safety. The precious warning you just gave your party is what they need to know that it's time to down that sweet invis potion and regroup.

Also, an addendum:

I've noticed many players fighting in large frays against 5+ enemies, targeting an enemy who is not targeting them, while being targeted by another enemy in turn. While I understand the reasoning for this if you are a rogue (sneak attax lul) be aware that all creatures (PCs included) get a +2 Flanking bonus when they roll an attack against something that is not targeting them, but somebody else. If you're in a fight against 5-6 enemies, and the fat dwarf with full plate and a tower shield is tying off 4 of them, don't let that pesky #5 get a +2 to his roll against you - tie him off yourself, and wait until the party is done with the other enemies so that they will come engage your own.

This might sound obvious to you old cats out there, but it's valuable information to newer/less mechanically inclined players.

My tip:

When somebody shouts "RUN!" it's probably a good idea to listen.

AKMatt My tip:

When somebody shouts "RUN!" it's probably a good idea to listen.

acquire as many useables as possible and never use them because hey its cool to have 5 potions of everything because who knows when you have hat half hour long pvp session where you get dispelled every 1d8 rounds. carrying around 12000 in potions and useables means you beat the game more.

kingcod

Tactical advice should only apply to characters with a tactical brain. If you are playing a barbarian or anyone who rates glory over safety - don't read this!

Now I would add:

DON'T RUSH! Wait until everyone is healed and ready to go.

KNOW WHAT HEALING TO USE! Don't use herbs while in fight, and don't use rods of moderate healing while not in fight. Since magical healing is just as effective whether you are fighting or not, spare it for when you are badly wounded in the middle of a fight. Wasting it means it won't be available when you actually need it.

Furthermore, it is a good idea to give your healing items to archers and others characters who don't melee and have them heal you. That way, you don't waste time healing yourself and you don't provoke attacks of oportunity on you. Of course, this requires trusting the one you give the healing item to.

STAY GROUPED! That will prevent the ennemies to focus on one party member, this will make attacks of oportunity and feats like cleave much more effective, and this may prevent ennemies from finishing near death characters, since they have to defend themselves against the rest of the group.

KNOW WHAT SPELLS TO USE! Buffing spells are often more effective than attack spells, since their benefits last unlike attack spells, that can only be used once. Bull's strenght, magic weapon, protection against evil, improved invisibility, etc. are a must. If you use attack spells, know which ones to use: for example, it is much more effective to use mind spells like hold person against warriors than against mages.

That's all I can think of for now.

Big one. Stay a good distance away from the scout and trap-searcher. That is, a good distance behind him - not ahead of him.

Denko

Being a barbarian doesn't mean you are a complete retard. Even if if you are an half-orc with 8 INT.

We are still not getting the need for exemption of Barbarians from adhering to tactics in this thread I think....

"Barbarians are brave, even reckless, and their warrior skills make them well suited to adventure. Instead of training and discipline, barbarians have a powerful rage that makes them stronger, tougher, and better able to withstand attacks." http://nwn.bioware.com/players/class_barbarian.html

Reckless and suicidal have decidedly different meanings.

And just because you're not trained, doesn't mean you won't know when you're out of your league. That's common sense.

Not running when it is a good idea is really the product of a low wisdom score any way.

Intelligence would only allow you to figure that the odds are against you. But after a point it gets obvious to every one that if you don't run you will die, glory or not.

Even animals, with an intelligence score of 3 in this game, know when to run at the right time.

Protip: If you fail to follow these guidelines, don't make a big bitchy post about it in General Discussion and demand the server be dumbed down to suit your ridiculous playstyle.

You'll never live it down.

Kotenku. :(

<3