Dear fellows,

for a while, PVP in Lower was allowed without DM supervision, just like it still is in zones without NPCs. When this was the case, Lower was dangerous. People were careful, violence was frequent.

Today, stepping into Lower, one meets many that will taunt one, knowing full well that without a DM nothing can happen. Even without this happening, there is still that OOC intrusion of having to go to IRC to find a DM since at least in my time zone - and the ones of many European fellows - one will not find one in-game.

Where, I ask, has the danger of Lower gone? Where the days where PC gangs would maraud the place? I firmly believe that it is not good to have the need for a DM in a place where violence is supposed to be commonplace. All it does, in my opinion, is spread a sort of "There's no DM on, I can insult people more than my character would normally" mentality in Lower, be it imagined or real.

Now, I can, if you like, present my arguments that speak for this. However, before that, I'd quite like to hear the reasoning behind this rule-change, if the sentiment is that there's not going to be a change no matter what.

This will not happen again. People proved too immature to handle it. If people are instead abusing a lack of DMs, that's a perfectly valid reason to complain to us.

...where violence is supposed to be commonplace...

Used to be. Think about this...

Lower has a population of roughly 300. About five games have, for IC reasons been utterly decimated. Numerous criminals have been stoned for crimes in Upper.

Plus, some crazy kid went around preaching peace. Not that it had any effect. >.>

Either way, the face of Lower has changed because the players who used to be there have changed/died/disappeared/moved away. It has been subdued, at least for the time being for entirely IC reasons IMO. This isn't to say that it can't change, a brand new UBER gang can't just pop up. Just saying that for right now, it is how it is because PCs made it that way.

As for people abusing the fact that there's a sizable chance that you won't be able to get a DM in Lower... yes, I've noticed a little bit of this. Of course, it's hard to say for sure if people are abusing this, or are merely victims of DMs who won't chain themselves to their computers (come on Howland, where's the utilitarianism in keeping up with your real life?). Talk to the person/people OOCly. Rain check it or something.

That may very well be. However, people are still behaving the way they used to (being insulting/aggressive/et cetera). Also, on several occassions have I very recently experienced that people make use of OOC knowledge or directly metagame to be "invulnerable" from retaliations by using lower as a safe-zone: Hitting someone hard in the tunnles and running into an NPC-area in Lower and screaming "Safe!", and similar incidents, and then proceeding with taunting you in full sight - well aware you can't get back at them. That's just not fair sport.

I have been in a couple of these situations myself, and yes, it sucks. I believe the best course of action is to suck it up and report people who are clearly abusing the non-presence of a DM. As of right now, we haven't proven that we are trustworthy with free PvP in Lower as prior experiences have shown and thus we shall have to deal with having constraint and stalking people more to obtain your desired goal. Plus, just think how much more brutal and creative you will be when your psychotic side breaks free after being locked away so long :twisted:

'brutal

Are goblins and kobold PC's protected by the "Non violence" rule, or do you need to get a dm before peppering their asses with bolts/arrows/sweetsweetmagics?

Getting a dm can be quite hard when a group of them is running right past you, screaming "Aieee! Not hurt not hurt!"

I have missed the Free PvP in lower, but I kinda see the DM perspective

Characters die in these conflicts and none of the parties made an effort to get a DM.

Characters died in front of NPC's who -would have intervened- to stop the violence (AKA hoaran temple)

In the end, I think it's best to get a DM before -any- PvP in -any- area. But Then, I've broken my own rule before.

Then make subdual PVP a-OK instead? That way no-one dies and we can still pommel eachother.

No PvP in lower without Dm. That wont change.

It's not even that the NPC in lower would prevent the violence. (Because they wouldnt care or get involved most of the time). It's just about making sure the server is enjoyable for EVERYONE.

Even those that shy away or are not good at PvP.

Non-presence of DM to abuse safety? I'd say that Plopbliblop pretty much PROVED there were no safe zone in the server EVER even with a DM (or two), so... It will come to bite whoever is abusing it sooner or later in the face, and it wont be pretty.

I think people who intend to insult and harass others (aim to instigate conflict) should arrange for a DM to be present. I say this because some play a violent character who is not going to stand around exchanging barbs, they're going to simply punch out whoever mouths them off.

This goes especially for those who emote pushing imo.

If there's a possibility of violence, we like people to get a DM. If there's a possibility that violence in a free PvP area will move to one with NPCs, grab a DM.

We've reiterated all of this stuff so many times, I am like to weep bitter-sweet, salty tears of woe :cry:

My $.02 is probably unnecessary ... but ...

Please dear gawd nooooooo DM free PvP (although I do have to admit being rushed by kobold in Lower makes it really really hard not smack back).

But my view is probably tainted by an experience I had in Upper where I got pummeled senseless out of the blue by a PC totally not involved in the RP I was in the middle of. Thankfully in the group that suddenly appeared, I'm assuming there was a DM around because I did manage to survive it. It was not pretty. >.<

I agree with the need of a DM for pvp when their are people who might intervene, but what is the ruling about say muggings in the tunnels or in random caves in the underdark? is it necessary to get a DM if their is no one within 100 miles of you that could make a difference? And what if you are in subdual in those zones? I know these are probably some dumb common knowledge questions, but I dont really know the answer. So I have just been sticking to grabbing a DM for that one time I got into a fight.

If there are no NPCs nearby, and the PvP will not conceivably move to an area where there are, then a DM is not required, but we like to be informed.

HoMeWrEaKeR I agree with the need of a DM for pvp when their are people who might intervene, but what is the ruling about say muggings in the tunnels or in random caves in the underdark? is it necessary to get a DM if their is no one within 100 miles of you that could make a difference? And what if you are in subdual in those zones? I know these are probably some dumb common knowledge questions, but I dont really know the answer. So I have just been sticking to grabbing a DM for that one time I got into a fight.

While having a DM is not required, it is required to notify the DM channel in case things go awry. Also, there is an awesome PVP Table and some common PVP questions like those above in Snoteye's The Great FAQ under Information for New Players. :)