Every story has a beginning, middle, and end. My personal preference in the world of NWN role-play is for players to recognize the importance of incorporating all three into the lifespan of their character. That said, it's also deeply unfortunate when players give up on a concept because of temporary difficulties or because they grow prematurely bored. I also tend to think that determining the end of a character is best left at the player's judgement.

How do you as players prefer this to be handled? What would your reaction be to a DM suggesting that your character's death be a good time to end the character and begin another? What sort of signs do you find are useful to determine when a character has reached his end?

Speaking from personal experience, I can think of situations where I've responded in different ways. Sometimes you have to just trust your gut and you -know- that there's more to be done with a concept, and on other occasions you need to stop playing the character -- as much fun as he was -- simply because it was a good death and would make sense for him to end.

This has always been a really important topic for me as well, and I'm glad you brought this up, Howland. I think you were actually the first person who presented that view to me that every character should be looked at with a beginning, middle, and an end - and I've been following that view ever sense.

Before this view came into place, I always had trouble ending a character, and there was always a point where I'd get bored with that particular character and stop playing him for a long period of time - when that characters death could have easily been worked in even weeks earlier when it would have made perfect sense. I used to have the hardest time getting rid of a character because I never looked at that character with an 'end' beforehand. Ever since you brought that view into light several months ago, I've been playing characters with a beginning, middle, and an end - and its really a much more effective method in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, by all means, if there is stuff out there that you meant for your character to accomplish before his or her death - those things should definately be worked out before the 'end' of your character, but I feel its extremely important to end a character when it naturally makes the most sense in his or her storyline.

When i began as a player, and im still relatively new, ive only been playing NwN, and this has been my only venture into D&D, i was loathe to give up a character. I played and played until there was absolutly no reason to continue playing them. While this kept me satisfied, it wasnt fair by any means.

Ive since come to the point where i welcome the end of a character, if its a fun, and fitting ending. If i have a character i love, and some assassin with no purpose other than wanting to collect a 100 gp bounty on my head kills me off, and "dismembers me, scattering the pieces to the four corners of the earth" should i feel obligated to end my character? Not one bit. However, if my characters involved in a plot where say, i sacrifice myself for the good of others, it would be quite cheesy to come back, and say "Well, glad to see death and sacrifice mean nothing". However, i digress.

Howland Said:

What would your reaction be to a DM suggesting that your character's death be a good time to end the character and begin another?

What sort of signs do you find are useful to determine when a character has reached his end?

A good sign, is the lack of a pressing plot. If youre idling, hoping something will come up, its likely time to hang up the sword/staff/gloves and try your hand at something new. Also, what can happen, obviously, is your own decreasing interest in your character. If youre playing a character only because you feel obligated, I would like you to quickly exit the server, and create a new one. You dont fool anyone. If you like your character, it shows. If youre bored with him, chances are, others will be too.

Disclaimer: What do i know? I just run a simple department of Cool. All of the above is simply my opinion, and is not a criticism of anyone in particular.

On Perma Death:

Howland Wrote:

What would your reaction be to a DM suggesting that your character's death be a good time to end the character and begin another?

-Certainly, I would not respond with a torpedo of complaints or disagreements. My opinion of a DM is just that, a moderator. Not only do DM's carry the responsibility for the transition or mechanics of the server, but also more importantly, they are there to see regulation. Plots and subplots are very recognizable examples. The time sequence of IG plots, is to me not a factor. What is however, is how efficient these plots(which revolve around ones character) progress or descend.

Howland Wrote:

What sort of signs do you find are useful to determine when a character has reached his end?

-Signs such as character idle or stagnation. By this I mean, the characters concept has become still. From personal experience with a cleric of mine who STARTED in disfavor with her deity. Her entire concept was to regain the favor(simple but entertaining) completely devouring her way of thought, smothering her ideals and thus judgement impaired. A form of tunnel vision so to speak. Of course it was long and drawn out, and in the end could not regain the acceptance of the deity rendering her "still" in that reguard. As there were no alternatives in her way of thinking,(a new patron, living outside the sphere of the clergy etc) the character and concept had become idle. As a DM and I discussed this outcome the conclusion was to "off" the character and begin with a new one. In other words, when there is no recourse, plot a new course.

-A more important sign of a charatcers end, is other players. Of course the more--lack of better words--"powerfull" a character becomes the more players tend to gravitate towards that player/character. And the opposite holds true as well, one in transgression tends to repell character/players. Yet if other players begin to find themselves bored or tired of a character and the plots they are involved in, and then turn away--that's clearly a sign. If the RP is just not up to par--that is a sign of a characters end. When the concept(s) just plain fizzle out and there is not much in the way of revival, that is a sign as well. And again, if these alone or combined, have surpassed a reasonable amount of time, and a DM(s) suggest burial of the character/concept then by all means. It is a multiplayer server not a single player game correct?

Howland Wrote:

How do you as players prefer this to be handled?

Howland Wrote:

I also tend to think that determining the end of a character is best left at the player's judgement.

-I'd have to agree, player recognition of their concept/character becoming "stale" would be primary. I do think though DM's still, remain moderators, and should encourage a player, if it is time, for them to end their character so that the flow of the server remains comsistent. To me critique and suggestions about the way I play a character in reguard to other player involvment or satisfaction, or constructive criticism with an outcome of character deletion I.E. perma death is very constructive and helps me become a more experienced RPr. To grow is to learn and to learn you just have to sometimes swallow your pride, and strive to correct any unfortunates--in the end, a deeper and much rich RP experience can be enjoyed by myself, other players and the DM's.

What would your reaction be to a DM suggesting that your character's death be a good time to end the character and begin another?

If I disagreed, I'd say I disagreed for x number of reasons. I'd take into account the opinion of the DM no different than a suggestion from one of my peers, and continue as I normally would have.

If I agreed, then I'd take that as a validation of my opinion.

I believe the choice should remain with the character's player and ultimately they decide if they stay or go.

I don't believe in prematurely ending characters though, and especially not if they are PCs that required application. I see that as wasted opportunity or a sort of ungrateful gesture.

It can be difficult to determine when the best time to end a character is. Staleness can be a sign, but staleness coupled with a fitting end, for example, execution, should definitely end the character. There is nothing more painful than seeing a character who already does nothing but sit around on high levels come back after an execution and sit around some more.

I think every character should have a main purpose, and if they fail to achieve their goals and no other opportunities for related plots arrive then they have outlived their usefulness as a productive entity in the persistent world and they become a stale character. Once a character achieves their goals, you should look toward aiding others achieve theirs.

e.g. You've become a Noble, so now you use your position for the good of others.

It's all very subjective, and only the player really knows if they're enjoying their character or not.

Ladocicea I believe the choice should remain with the character's player and ultimately they decide if they stay or go.

That's basicly what I would say too. Unless a previous OOC agreement had been made between the player and DM ie "You don't have to go on this quest, but if you die then it's going to be permadeath", then the player should always have the choice to carry on playing their character, since it is a game after all, which is all about the player having fun.

Although some cases may require a condition such as "Alright, you can carry on playing this guy if you want, but you have to wait at least a week, and you can't remember who it was that killed you"

There are times when I've really hated it when I see people or DMs telling other players to white light their character, I feel it should be up to the creator of the character 110%.

I don't think I've any right to tell someone it's time they move onto something else, they're here to have fun as much as I am, and if they have fun playing the same character than that is fine with me.

Personally, I think I'm pretty notorious for bringing back on-hold, or "Dead" characters, and I like to avoid white lighting because you never know when you may need or want to bring that old character back. However, if I was given a very fitting death for a character, I would likely retire them. Though, I'd rather have the DM or player comment on how fitting of a death it was rather than telling me to drop the character :P

A few things to add:

- "Escape Quests" will occur regularly as the server matures, but will always be perma-retirement (that is, if you die or if you succeed -- the character is over). There are a lot of good reasons for that: the importance of making them special, the ability to give away information that we would not otherwise be able to, etc. PCs who "escape" will receive perks though, including their own statue in the Town Hall. So, if you choose to go on those optional events you will need to be prepared to give up the character.

- If the Council decides to execute or exile your PC, his exile is permanent (pending the Council reversing their decision). If executed characters show up the next day in the Town Hall, they'll just be killed again. That said, life as an exiled PC is definitely manageable: a large section of the town isn't patrolled by the Watch but rather by hired mercenaries, and of course *spoiler spoiler spoiler*

EDIT

- The policy, such as there is, is that it is up to the player to determine the appropriate time to retire a character, assuming no prior agreement with the DM (i.e. an Escape DM Quest) or other unusual circumstances. That said, I would like to encourage players to really be willing and ready to give up on a character in an appropriate situation even when you're still enjoying the character. Players who do this earn not only my own respect, but will likely receive greater consideration for sub-race/faction applications as well as more DM attention for their next character. Compare a story in which the author is so attached to his protagonist that you know he will never die permanently or be removed from the story, vs. one who has the courage to take the beloved character and end him permanently.

Ending a character because he died to some lag and lost his stuff = BAD

Ending a character at his peak, during the course of a duel to the death with his greatest rival = ADMIRABLE

For me, I try to stress the effects of PvP encounters with any characters, regardless of how "Balanced" they are.

Nothing short of a raise should bring back a good guy from this, after an X number of days, and I like to think that any villain that dies to another character usually deserves to be left behind.

I just feel if a character did something so major to drive another character to end his life, it is better to leave him dead, especially if they happen to be evil.

Legendary cleric of Beshaba known for cursing people who just looked at him wrong is brought down by a lowly fighter of Tymora, and after defeating this foe of his god is named a champion for not just his god, but all.

How lame would it be if the cleric just walked down the street four days later? It would completely steal the thunder of "I killed ~Blank~"The reaction would go from "*Gasp* Amazing!" to "*Scratches head and points* You mean the fellah over there?"

Just my personal thoughts though.

I don't mind respawns if you're killed by NPC goblins or due to horrible wretched lag.

In PvP I dislike respawns entirely and don't think they should happen at all.

As for Raise Dead, it exists in the world. Its part of the fabric, and if you want to make sure someone doesn't get Raise Dead cast on them easily then you should have a way to ensure that that occurs--but it shouldn't be easy at all.

Oh yes, of course.

There's nothing wrong with being raised straight after a quest, or after being killed by random spawns.

The problems appear when you kill someone in PvP and they pop straight back and then try to kill you thirty seconds later. It just spoils everything in so many ways.

There are examples of how this shouldnt work. Three blokes go out, one of them is a lvl 9 priest. Bad guy pc turns up and attacks, killing one of them, and escapes. Good priest lvl 9 raises his friend, and hunts down the evil bloke.

I dont see anything wrong with such a thing. Even if you are killed, and someone hides your body. If someone else comes along finds your body (without cheating) and raises you, still dont see a problem.

Respawning after pvp= sucky. Cheating through tells to make friends find your body? =just as sucky. Being lucky and having friends who finds your body= jolly good luck.

It's not as black and white as that.

Take your scenario.

If the bad guy is an overenthusiastic mugger and kills one of the party members, then I don't see why the Priest shouldn't raise their friend.

On the other hand, if the bad guy is the arch nemesis of the party and there's a huge climactic battle, the bad guy kills one or two of them and then gets away, I think there should be a little more role play afterwards before the dead party members are raised, just to emphasise the blow the evil side dealt to the good side. If not, it just looks like "Nevermind, he managed to shave a level off me. Raise me and we'll find him right now so we can shave a level off him and then we're even again."

It all depends on the relationship between the two parties. If they're adversaries and they have this big Senior Paladin VS Huge Evil Guy thing, then raising straight after is pretty distasteful.

If you don't have some form of closure or some way of acknowledging the significance of what happened, then it just comes a I kill you, then You kill me, then I kill you, then You kill me and so forth scenario.

If the death is good, as in the roleplay is good and makes me enjoy the experience, then it is ok to permadeath the character. If it is agreed beforehand with a DM that I am willing to end the character in certain situation, it is fine by me. I just hope it will be enjoyable. I have nothing against a bit of advice. I am also ready to end a character even with out a permadeath, if it fits to the story. But a forced end - that is something I hope I am not ever going to have to go through. Things can always be discussed.

Howland How do you as players prefer this to be handled? What would your reaction be to a DM suggesting that your character's death be a good time to end the character and begin another?

In a word: shock.

In my experience, online RP means consistent DM disinterest.

However, as a fan of pen-and-paper, if that were to actually happen, I know I'd want to hear the DM's argument. After all, if I'm being asked to consider my character's story, I'm discussing that character with someone who's been watching the story.

Howland What sort of signs do you find are useful to determine when a character has reached his end?

Idealistic though it be, I like for my characters to accomplish (or die accomplishing) one major goal of theirs before exiting stage left. My characters are supposed to be adventurers, not shop keepers - as such, I like their stories to include an earned reputation for heroism or villainy.

Howland Speaking from personal experience, I can think of situations where I've responded in different ways. Sometimes you have to just trust your gut and you -know- that there's more to be done with a concept, and on other occasions you need to stop playing the character -- as much fun as he was -- simply because it was a good death and would make sense for him to end.

Ah, but this is why pen-and-paper style DMing, where there's actual interest in the character and storytelling, will always be superior to being an admin on a server.

I care more about the story than I care about my characters. If its time for their story to end, then I have no problem having a DM make that call. I can just start a new story.

I think dead should be handled like Arabel is. If you chose to respawn you will suffer a heavy exp penalty. Pemadeath is just too harsh in my opinion.

The underlying issue in this arguement is how easy it is to return from the dead in this setting. If every level 9 PC cleric and a handful of NPCs can raise the dead, then I completely agree with Oroborous:

As for Raise Dead, it exists in the world. Its part of the fabric, and if you want to make sure someone doesn't get Raise Dead cast on them easily then you should have a way to ensure that that occurs--but it shouldn't be easy at all.

An easy route back from the dead is part of the world and if you want to be brought back, there is no difference from being killed by a goblin, rather than some intricate PC plot. If you're acting like there is a difference then you're metagamming. If you want to actually create a difference then you have to alter the setting. Perhaps making raising more difficult by requiring a rare spell component, or perhaps creating a way in which a body can be ritually disposed; a very difficult task that requires money and time to ensure the person does not come back.

If you leave this to simply what player thinks and not a cold hard rule, it will brew hard feelings and conflict. Believe me, I've been in the situation where I wanted to continue playing my character and others felt differently on another server and it was not fun.

I've further thought about this issue and will give the following suggestions.

The rare material component to bring back the dead will simply be annoying to those who want to return companions killed on run of the mill quests and make this task a joyless hassle.

The ritual burning however could be quite effective in keeping those who should stay dead, dead. To start the burning 5,000 - 10,000 gps (maybe depending on the level of the dead PC) would be required. Upon completion of the burning a demon is summoned from the abyss that offers to take the soul of the dead for a price. The price asked would be a random rare item that could be found somewhere on the server. The demon will take the dead as a result of being summoned, but if the PC does not pay the price he asks, the the demon will try to take the PC as well.

If a PC wants to dispose of the body of another PC, there should always be a DM involved to arbitrate the matter. However, that your character had another end than you desired isn't something you should concern yourself with. We're all helping each other write the story here, and after all, that's the most important. Think of things as a series of historic events that are all important to the current situation.

With all due respect to timely character ends, I would certainly not want anyone, through scripted means no matter how difficult, to end one of my characters before I feel it's time. I would, however, have no problem with the matter being brought up to discussion. So, having an automated/scripted way to do this would be a definite no-no, but I certainly don't mind there being the option of talking things through, either by a DM who feels that the time is right, or another player.

I kind of see Sturmer's point, death should be meaningful, it's absolutely pointless if somebody -kills you- and then you are raised with little change in attitude, or even roleplaying in regards to the risk of losing your life for good.

I don't really like handing scripted perma-death options in the hands of the aggressor in PVP however, as it's too easily abused.

Sinister Seneschal I kind of see Sturmer's point, death should be meaningful, it's absolutely pointless if somebody -kills you- and then you are raised with little change in attitude, or even roleplaying in regards to the risk of losing your life for good.

Just to clarify, I'm not in any way saying that death should mean nothing but a bit of an exp hit and an opportunity to visit the fugue shack. If it's really appropriate for my character not to come back, I'd be totally open for discussion of retirement (or possibly some other solution, like not remembering a thing if it's just a witness-removing issue, and if I really feel that I can have much more fun with the character in question), but I'd want the final decision to be mine to make.

The bottom line with what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't want to ruin my own good fun with something I've spent countless of hours developing just for things to be 100% plausible, and without having a say in it myself.

I see your point and you're quite right. After all it is your character, you probably should have the final say. I guess a change in the setting wont resolve the matter, instead the decision should simply be left up to the player and whatever he decides should be more or less how it's going to be.

I kind of see Sturmer's point, death should be meaningful, it's absolutely pointless if somebody -kills you- and then you are raised with little change in attitude, or even roleplaying in regards to the risk of losing your life for good.

A death can especially be meaningless if it was a planned assassination to remove someone from an appointed position. For example:

I want to kill john the council member because he's in the way of my evil plot to take over the council. I go ahead and arrange his death, he dies, but doesn't want to retire his charater. What now? He has every right to bring his character back, but in doing so my attempts will be absolutely meaningless if he comes back and retakes his position on the council. --- This is the major dilema we face in this situation. I ask you all, how do we resolve a situation like this?

this would be where you notify the dms ahead of time who can watch and so on? makes sense to me. if a dm says "uh, councilmember smith youre out of action. minimum 2 weeks" then its law.

Sturmer A death can especially be meaningless if it was a planned assassination to remove someone from an appointed position. For example:

I want to kill john the council member because he's in the way of my evil plot to take over the council. I go ahead and arrange his death, he dies, but doesn't want to retire his charater. What now? He has every right to bring his character back, but in doing so my attempts will be absolutely meaningless if he comes back and retakes his position on the council. --- This is the major dilema we face in this situation. I ask you all, how do we resolve a situation like this?

As a general rule, I think DM-imposed permadeath without forewarning is unnecessary. I say this for the following reasons:

Generally speaking, only well played characters are going to have beginnings, middles and ends to their stories. Well-played characters are usually controlled by mature and sensible players. Generally, I think such players can be relied upon to decide appropriately when their character's permadeath is warranted without DM fiat.

So I guess the point I'm making is this: Good players are going to know when their story is finished and let the dead stay dead, and not-so-good players probably won't have complete stories to begin with, making closure irrelevant. In either case, DM-imposed permadeath would be unnecessary.

That being said, I've seen a few cases where even the best players stay attached to a character too long even after their story was clearly over and they'd died an excellent story death, and in those cases I've thought it was fine when a DM said, "Hey, it's over, stay dead." Sometimes a player needs a real push to let go, but I think those cases should be rare.

All of that being said, a great device most of us have seen elsewhere is a DM letting players know before a major quest or storyline is "if you die during this, you're permadead." I think if a player goes into that with foreknowledge, all's fair.

In a world where spells like raise dead, (true) ressurrection and wish exist, I think it's unreasonable to have permanent death.

I understand that in some situations there is no point in coming back with the character, but only the player would know when it's time to.

Some people have little or no common sense for that, but still, I think it's hard for anyone else, DM included, to know what the player wanted to achieve with the character, and if he already did or not.

(in case of 'epic' deaths between big heroes and villains, common sense should kick in and the player should stay dead otherwise, it may cheapen the story)

But I think it's something that should be encouraged, rather than enforced.

In pnp there are permadeath spells and so on, methods that can trap the soul, so it Can be done...

I stated my position earlier in the thread, however as a point of clarification -- TR is not generally available to PCs. Pretty much reserved for when we screw up as DMs (which is often!).