Are five people, who have never existed in Faerun, or Sanctuary.

There is a disturbing trend popping up as of late. This notion of "Togetherness" and "We are the world" and "Civil Rights".Goblins and Kobolds and other monster races are just that. Monsters.

I find myself twisted inside, watching the Elven Warrior who praises slaughter of Trolls, Drow, And even Goblins, break down and stop someone form harassing goblins (PC's, not those damn evil Quest goblins!111!!)

Honestly. Hatred is a part of Sanctuary Life. You're free to be apathetic to it, and hate less than others, But to stand up for goblin rights?

Sure. If you're the 1/100 people who doesn't hate goblins, -and- your life was saved by one, -AND- you survived slavery with one, Perhaps I could see this. But honestly?

Its something that skews the imagination, and to almost some extent, the Realism of the server.THe DMs have said time and again that they are evil monsters. As are Orcs, Orogs, and other creatures.

Just like the Drow.

To see a PC who hates questing monsters, but protect a PC monsters, and adamantly stands up against people trying to do "Good" by killing them (AS the DMs have stated numerous times, Goblins are 100% evil, killing them is good). Of course it should be RP'd out, but in all honesty, Please.

Please please.

Please please please.

Stop going on the goblin quest, then turning around and drawing a sword on a man who is trying to kill a goblin.Stop protecting that rat-like lizard Kobold who for all you know will kill you next.

Stop humanizing monsters. People who play them expect it to be difficult. That's half of the allure. EFU on hard mode. Its why people apply for Drow and to a lesser extent, Duergar. These Subraces were just deemed non-application to allow more people to play.

I would almost suggest more animosity for Half-Orcs, as they are, yes, Half-Monster. But that is slightly more understandable. Half monster, but you can play up the "Half Human" part too, I suppose.

So. Yeah.

The 1950's-60's-70's in American and world history never occurred here. Some things should be hated and killed. Please stop letting OOC influence affect your IC RP.

As previously stated, unless you have 900 different horribly rare extenuating circumstances,

If your PC hates Questing Monsters, and PC Drow, and PC Duergar.

PC goblins and Kobolds need to be on that list.

Valerius liked PC monsters. Granted, he was also into S&M, extortion, intimidation, armed robbery, breaking bones, arson, arms dealing, coups, and political corruption.

Lesson? If you're a good guy, it might, perhaps, be more likely to exhibit antagonistic behavior towards monsters and fight for the good of humanity than it is to defend the nonexistent notion of god-given rights for creatures who's lives are built upon -epochs- of slavery, cannibalism, torture, and altogether nasty practices.

Well not wanting to start an argument or tell someone how to play there character but you talk about not going on the goblin quest and then sparing the Pc goblins but by the same argument the people that kill Pc Goblins and Kobolds on sight yet seem to ignore the Npc non-hostile ones (ie lord bunge the bugbear enforcer etc.) are just as guilty of it as the other side. After all im sure if they asked a dm he would be more than happy to posses one to kill (or at least attempt to)

I think the Council needs to write up a bill of rights!

We need more banned races. Add elves to the list, imo.

*upraised greenfist* Power to the greenskins. Equal protections unda da laws!!!! Oh, uhh..and death to all pinks!!! Blood for Maggzzz!!!

I hear you, RWG.

Additionally, Sanctuary needs more characters that put down the pwn on the monster populations, IMO. Like a dorf version of the PUNISHER, going on a lulz rampage throughout lower

Kinda like this guy:

"BE YE FEELIN' LUCKY, HUH, PUNK????!!!!!"

I think the response i will put up to that is don't tell me how to RP my character if you want to go out slaughtering them that is fine. But i can choose how my PC will react. People react for different reasons, and deal with things in different situations.

Random_White_Guy

Stop humanizing monsters.

Yup.

"The term "monster" refers to a being that is a gross exception to the norms of some ecosystem. Usually characterized by an ability to destroy human life or humanity, more than an example of "survival of the fittest", natural law, or innate evil" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster

Moral relativism does not apply to Escape from the Underdark. There are some races which are innately evil. This is why one has to apply for a non evil alignment. Please stop being all fluffy. It is really cringeworthy, and reeks of someone letting modern values seep into the portrayal of their characters.

That said, I -did- have a Goblin Butler once. But he was practically a slave.

DangerousDan

That said, I -did- have a Goblin Butler once. But he was practically a slave.

That goblin butler was actually the slave of my short lived, Willy Wonka Esque Drow, Before he was yours!

But I digress.

It isn't so much "Us telling your character what to do", as much as us tell you as a PC what to do.

It doesn't fit with the setting. Its like when the DMs say don't play a good drow. So you don't. We're trying to make the server a better place for all, not just telling you how to play your character.

We're just saying, On the whole, 99% of characters should be anti-goblin.

RwG is definatly right here.

What happened to my character:

I was racist agenst a goblin. I was called a racist. I said he was a monster. He said "It has feelings too" We fought. Another Pro-gobber joined in, Hold-personed me, and I was pwnt.

Maby we do need the equilvilant to a gattling gun touting Gobber slaying dwarf ranger.

Someone who doesnt mind PvP, roll us up a goblin eater.

Been done before, was a Seeker..and done welll. He even had a goblin ear necklace..

I will make a case that if you are playing a particularly wise or intellectual individual whom might attempt to go into some deep philosophical arguing on some of the moral issues at stake in the EfU environment could indeed be entertaining. However, I agree with most of the sentiments here in that the moral values we hold today are not understood (or even considered) by the vast (99.9%) of the population in the EfU environment and therefore shouldn't be blindly applied under the assumption all persons and things hold those values.

It would be particularly entertaining if your wise or intellectual individual argued the moral foundations SUPPORTING things like monster killing. Just a thought, and it may be tough for some of you IRL 8 INTers out there. :P

Edit: I think I should also add that currently, I do not think the DM team collectively has a well defined policy for enforcing this, but it is definitely something that is in our rights to enforce should we chose to become more strict about it.

you rp as you want, but i as a dm will laugh as npcs start calling you "goblin lover" and watch pcs and npcs start to think you're conspiring with goblin sappers and you get beat down/searched/harassed a lot more for being a freak.

edit: trust me noone knows how to hate minorities for illogical reasons like a arch-conservative like myself.

I too find it rather lame when people go wild slaughtering goblins on quests, then are best friends with them in town five minutes later.

You should have a really good reason for -not- killing goblins/kobolds, not the other way around.

All this, though, makes it rather awkward when you run into non-hostile NPC goblins, like Grulpo and the Morose Goblin. I mean... what are you going to do, kill them?

... Generally subdue them, Loot them, and kick them into the sewers.

never FD without atleast 3 incidences with the character first is always my rule.

Short version:

Don't play monsters that don't act like monsters. Don't treat monsters as if they weren't what they are. Doing so is both immersion-breaking and entirely out of character. In particular, if you play an elf or a dwarf, PLAY AN ELF OR A DWARF. These races hate goblins. They kill them. It's part of playing these races. Same thing for gnomes to kobolds (although this is rarely if ever a problem, as I've seen!). Reacting with kindness towards these monsters is, essentially as OOC acts when you should be IC, against the server rules. Please, PLEASE don't do it.

Long version:

ExileStrife It would be particularly entertaining if your wise or intellectual individual argued the moral foundations SUPPORTING things like monster killing.

Exile, I wasn't sure if you were talking about characters in EfU or people in real life in the EfU situation. I'm going to assume the prior because it makes more sense. By the way, I'm not arguing against you here. Just elaborating on what we agree on, I think, for the sake of the argument! We shouldn't need to argue this as a server/community, but for some reason, it ISN'T accepted. So here goes...

Entertainment value aside, this is just a common and understood facet of LIFE in the world. There is good. There is evil. Monsters are evil. Unlike men, common dwarves, common elves, gnomes, halflings, they are born into evil. They are no different than drow or duergar in this regards. It doesn't require wisdom or intelligence at all to realize that, in the FR setting and particularly in the EfU environment, killing monsters is not only ethically acceptable (regardless of being PC or NPC!), but it is objectively GOOD to do so.

The argument I hear a lot IG is that "you haven't met them all, you can't know that they are all evil." This is absurd. That's like saying, you haven't seen the sky all over the world, you don't know if it's blue there or not! Maybe it's purple over China!

We understand that the sky-color notion is absurd because other people who have been there, seen the Chinese sky, say that it is blue. We don't question them, do we? We accept their AUTHORITY from having been there. The second reason is that, based on our own experience, we know that the sky is blue. There is objective, fact based science that explains why it is so.

How does this tie in to the monster scenario? Based on the AUTHORITY of those who know, we cannot logically deny the notion that all monsters are not evil. It simply can't be done without denying the objective nature of the world (and the good and evil axis) and ignoring what your character should simply KNOW. If you did for some reason refute this, then you might as well refute the existence of the sun and sky in the EfU setting, because even LESS people have had experience with that! Secondly, while good monsters MAY exist, your character has most certainly NOT met any. If they have, well, you've been playing the OC campaign (with Deekin) or reading WAY too much Drizzt Do'Urden books, whatever they're called. To deny that monsters are not all evil, and thus worthy of death, is to deny an objective fact. Arguing against gravity would be just as illogical.

As some DM put it a long time ago, there are a few million drow on Toril and a good one is one in a billion. The same applies to goodly monsters.

Still not convinced? Still doesn't make sense why you can just ASSUME goblins are evil? Then stop trying to justify a game based on magic and dragons and such, don't worry about it, and please for God's sake just accept the fact that everyone agrees on so as to preserve the integrity of the server and reduce this Out of Character problem.

Lastly, yes, there are times when someone MIGHT not want to kill a goblin for whatever reason. But doing so, manipulating goblins, all this is very, very evil. If your character is ANY Good, I can't think of a situation where you would NOT try to kill a monster while it is around humans (think of the children!) in Lower Sanctuary. If your character is ANY kind of Neutral, I cannot think of any situation where you might even accept monsters as potential allies/friends. Lastly, if you're any kind of evil, you probably ought to have a damned good reason to tolerate these little monsters.

FINAL NOTE FOR MONSTER PCs:

I'm something of a hypocrate. I know. I played a "friendly" goblin for a very, very long time. It bothered me to death, despite its apparent necessity. Of course, that goblin wasn't as friendly as some may think, but that point is an aside.

If you're playing a monster, be one. Do monster things. Eat babies, cause pain, be EVIL. If you're a kobold, don't LOVE things. Kobolds in particular do NOT FEEL LOVE (I need to cite my source, but I'm pretty confident about this being true). Don't make friends. You can have allies, sure, but you are self-centered MONSTERS. Don't lose sight of what you are or you lose a lot of the awesomeness that it is to play a monster, to have monster goals, and to be successful.

What then about all the goblin and kobold NPCs that the players mostly just ignore? If their hate is projected towards quest and PC goblins and kobolds, it should also be directed at the NPCs, such as Lord Bungee or the Bugbear Enforcer.

Bunge isn't running around in the city.

The bugbear bodyguard is clearly tough as nails. Someone could go after them, but frankly--that is not an excuse to TOSS YOUR BRAIN OUT THE WINDOW AND DECLARE THAT GOBLINS AND KOBOLDS SHOULD BE TREATED NICELY!

Which is what some people are bringing that point up to prove. It doesn't, I've seen players in game plan to take care of the monsters in Lower, they meet resistance in the form of other monsters, rich people who benefit from monsters, and the simple fact that some of them--like Glorbor and the Bugbear Bodyguards are Mean mo'fos.

Monsters are monsters and should be treated as monsters and if you don't have a problem with monsters then maybe you should look in a mirror, monster.

I attack goblins/kobolds, and try not to FD them, unless they really piss my chars off.

That, and don't tell people how to play their characters.

I can think of several reasons why people wouldn't want to slaughter monsters on the spot. And, honestly, I far preferred Sanctuary when there wasn't a ban on the less harmful species like Goblins and Kobolds! But that's just because I like Skullport. The town itself has had a long history of living side-by-side with certain Monster races- Monsters that are far more likely to be found as slaves in The Underdark than the basic humanoid races, and monsters that many former-slave characters would have worked alongside during their years of entrapment.

Commence the cavalcade.

To be completely honest, I'd estimate about 90% of the reason we let monster PC's be played without application was so we could watch them be brutally hunted down and slaughtered by angry Sanctuary citizens.

Get crackin' folks!

Garem Basis, reinforcement, and justification for the treatment of humanoid races

First off, yes, I was talking about characters in the EfU setting.

And to just sum up everything you said and respond quickly, "yes." I hold highly (as do all of the DMs!) the motivating factors that support why we want all characters in this setting to have a certain attitude towards the monstrous races, but this is at a sort of meta-omnipotent level. We, the DM team, and even with the influence of players, are the "creators" of the entire environment on EfU and have set/configured the feelings that will be had by everyone. And it isn't just, "humaniods should be hating on monsters," but other preset notions as well, like the Seeker/Spellguard relationships or Lower/Upper relationships. It is just as immersion-breaking and offensive to us to break those molds we have tailored as it is to break the humaniod/monster mold. Your statements serve well to reinforce my original points too.

I'd like to see a 'thinker' explain all of this, in-characterly, in his own words. Coming up with his own arguments and justifications, broadcasting them in game. Similar what you just did here.

There are plenty of things in our society that are universally accepted now, like the wrongness and taboo of father-daughter incest or bestiality, these being analogous to the humanoid/monster attitudes found in the in-game society. We do not require strong, well-founded analytical arguments to try to help people understand why father-daughter incest or bestiality is impermissible, nor do characters in our setting require such arguments before they accept that kobolds/goblins are evil and are indeed worth killing (usually) -- we (the "creators") have designed the environment to be that way and it is simply expected you roleplay accordingly.

However, sometimes 'thinkers' (philosophers, whatever) will go out of their way to produce valid analytical arguments to reinforce why father-daughter incest or bestiality is impermissible, and it is often a novel experience to hear these "facts of society" reassured in a new, clever way. For the same reasons, I think it would be enlightening to have a character come up with new, clever ways to support the so-made "facts" about the rightness of goblin/kobold killing...enlightening from an IC experience (as many characters would have their interests perked just as we do in real life when our real life taboos are analyzed), and also enlightening from the OOC aspect of getting to watch someone roleplay an interesting and challenging role.

I can close this up by reaffirming another point that keeps coming up in this thread. When people pop up in our society and actually attempt to argue in favor of practices like father-daughter incest or bestiality, we immediately view them with repulsion and disgust since they are violating our facts of life. For the very same reason in-game, and in-characterly, characters would be repulsed by those supporting kobold/goblin relationships and integration.

Pitchforks and torches, people. ANGRY mobs. Hunt them down and kill them!

Rewrite "A Modest Proposal" without the satire.

What Ninelives said.

Outcry against 'goblin rights' and the such should be pursued IG, not on OOC forums. People may have characters that feel empathy with monster races, and its not your duty to say they shouldn't here. Do so IG.

Just my 2 cents on this here topic. It's just that they are PC's that people react the way they do I think.

Scenario: What if 10 goblin npc "bad guys" came into lower set as hostile. non-monster races would all party up and attack them right?

If they are pc's and not set to hostile we don't. It's cause they are pc's but really IC it probably shouldn't affect the decision, right?

wcsherry Pitchforks and torches, people. ANGRY mobs. Hunt them down and kill them!

My character will, infact, go and hunt down goblins or other monsters and if I see them as a PC in lower I probably wont go and kill it on sight.

The thing is I don't hunt goblins down because they are goblins but because they are attacking farmers or merchants or small childern. And while they may do that in D&D because they are goblins, my character doesn't care, he is only acting on the idea that the best defence is a good offence.

Now if said PC goblin starts fights or eats childern, or what ever, I will break his spine, or at least smack him around provided I can take him. Not because he is evil but because he is doing evil actions.

My character probably wont go and have a talk with the goblins about their fealings, but I won't kill them on sight either. Just because I don't want to be prejudice doesn't mean I am going to lower my guard, I mean in all fairness you guys talk like monsters are the only ones who commit evil acts.

P.S. The skies in Seattle are grey most of the time!

Consistency, folks! The DMs keep reminding us it's about storytelling, not quests and all that jazz. Most of the players I interact with are smart folks, so I'm sure we can all figure it out. :)

Also, Grot's dwarf pic is totally badass. I totally endorse this.

ExileStrife... again For the same reasons, I think it would be enlightening to have a character come up with new, clever ways to support the so-made "facts" about the rightness of goblin/kobold killing...enlightening from an IC experience (as many characters would have their interests perked just as we do in real life when our real life taboos are analyzed), and also enlightening from the OOC aspect of getting to watch someone roleplay an interesting and challenging role.

Oh, alright alright. I might make this an IC thing for over Spring Break.

I just think (and RwG, apparently, since he started this) that out-of-character ideas come into play far far too often, particularly in the case of monsters and equating them to non-monster humanoids. The culture of PCs has been so afflicted by this incorrect "equal" notion that it sometimes seems overbearing, and it is certainly not indicative of how the world and other NPCs feel.

On a final note, a lot of NPCs in Lower have been criticizing the number of monsters that are allowed to roam around. None that I have seen (yet) have said otherwise, barring one exception when a prominant goblin PC got in a fight with an Upper mob once. "Give 'em hell commander!" So lol.

ICly, my character is fairly apathetic. He wouldn't hesitate to deal with them if they crossed him (Infact, was involved in some Kobold hunting), but overall this is an OOC issue, hence why I thought to make the post on the OOC forum.

I shouldn't have to run around going "WOLOL GOBLINS R EVIL", Icly.

Though if that is what the DMs want, It can easily be arranged.

If you're playing someone who shows mercy to goblins, expect people to frown. It might be seen as insanity, weakness, or just generally being a pathetic monster-lover! As with playing a monster race has consequences and challenges, playing someone who gives monster races a break should have consequences and challenges.

And yes, "they give experience points" is a pretty disgusting excuse to kill quest monsters, but not player monsters.

Although, character morality might come in play here. "But mister Diag, why would any one care about morals with goblins!?" Some characters might have a certain view of a life being a life. This shouldn't really be an excuse for huggles and cuddles, but it might be a reason to let a goblin or kobold live. Just throwing that thought out there!

Edit: Also, monster players are often victim to lame pvp. Pvp should be entertaining for everyone involved, regardless of what character they're playing. Whilst them being a murderous beast is a decent reason to obliterate them, at least make it amusing for the poor guy playing the goblin.

I changed my mind. I fully support the fight against monster racism.

Why?

Because of this article.

http://www.slate.com/id/2186203

The thing I like most about it is that the guy has waited until after Gygax's death to say something, so the man he's attacking can't fight back.

I just want to know if the weapon that dwarf is packing can be added to the loot at the goblin fort.

Possibly... ; )

Svirfneblin Vindicator Minigun.

Finally - I have the perfect analogy to the real world to alienate the goblin lovers:

Goblins = Wasps

And we are not talking WASPS

Nope, no good. I know people in RL that literally wouldn't hurt a fly, or even a wasp if it could be avoided.

In an instance such as this I find myself agreeing with the anti-monster crowd, for the most part. Kill dem goblins! :twisted:

However I would say that there are people who could be exceptions, IC. Though like some people in RL who advocate certain alternative lifestyles, like polyamory or suchlike, they would be considered a sort of "intellectual rebel", which is to say holding a well thought out viewpoint for an unpopular position. The thing is, those sorts of people generally don't try to thrust their views into the mainstream, and those few that do are often ostracized for it (this would be the mob condemning the "goblin lover"). As such it may be ok to hold those views in private, maybe discuss them IC with your close IC friends, but it would not normally be something you would want to be proclaiming to everyone, nor would you be defending to the death a goblin that you see being attacked in the streets. Odds are good that the goblin is being attacked for a very good reason, like doing unsavory goblin-type things.

I mean, even in the case of Asclepius, who I built to be compassionate almost to a fault, you would find him carrying a torch and pitchfork with the best of them if there was a goblin in lower even looking funny at one of the begger children.

Meet you all at the goblin fort!

Yes, but people in RL don't have tiny monsters running around killing indiscrimately and eating children because they're as good a meal as anything else.

...[if a] goblin in lower [was] even looking funny at one of the begger children.

Changed the quote out of laziness and to reiterate. Too infrequently do goblin PCs DO this. Anyways, you should assume that they do anyways, because they ought to be doing it.

Garem

...[if a] goblin in lower [was] even looking funny at one of the begger children.

Changed the quote out of laziness and to reiterate. Too infrequently do goblin PCs DO this. Anyways, you should assume that they do anyways, because they ought to be doing it.

Then by all means, lay some smackdown :D

More importantly, I think that when we try and play the "Let's all be nice to the little green children eating devils" card, we are stealing away one of the main reasons to PLAY a monstrous race PC. Being hated and hunted.

Not saying that you have to pwn every PC goblin on sight if your PC wouldn't want to, but if you are a goblin and you walk right into the middle of a large PC gathering, and nobody goes "OMG STOMP DA GOBLUNZ" it's got to be disappointing.

Goblins stick together, and hang with other goblins, or play the sidekick to a particularly tolerant group of people (usually evil, who will use him basically like a slave and keep him somewhat safe in return). They don't stand in circles, holding hands with elves and halflings humans and kobolds and undead, singing kumbaya and dropping hits of acid.

My 2 cents. Meow-mix

Meow-mix!

:shock:

um... one of the reasons i don't initiate a lot of pvp with goblin pc's is that, when i have seen a dm on, they are REALLY busy. (and i am not upset in the least, you guys do a great job) i personally have waited for more than 15 minutes on more than 4 occasions to get a response from a Dm about other matters (which, by the way, is still not cleared up)

i guese what i am saying is, i don't attack pc goblins because it is a real headache to have a burning hatred for the liitle buggers, go to the crone to get an ale, find one or two sitting in the tavern... then have to WAIT on a dm to be able to oversee the pvp

of course, if the dm's don't mind being constantly asked to oversee pvp, then i am all for it, because truthfully, i have not had a character that has gone to lower and NOT seen the goblins in the crone.

my two bits, even if it is a bit jumbled

We usually prioritize PvP.

Now I have only been in one PvP with my dwarf (lol he got WHOOPED) but I must say DM's were there very fast. I mostly agree with what the original post said, though I have to say that some PC's are very cowardly and afraid of monsters (like mine :() and that there are some reasons we don't all go out killing them.

SkillFocuspwn Yes, but people in RL don't have tiny monsters running around killing indiscrimately and eating children because they're as good a meal as anything else.

I know that if it is put in, it would probably be a matter of "you don't like it, don't play here". But seriously, that's a pretty... For want of a better word, upsetting thing to see roleplayed.

What do you mean Yip? It's bad to RP eating children?

I was on a server where they banned children because someone wanted to rp Eating/sacrificing them to the dark gods.. NPC Children by the way.

Mikhail The Heretic I was on a server where they banned children because someone wanted to rp Eating/sacrificing them to the dark gods.. NPC Children by the way.

That is not EfU at all. Nor is harming children innapropriate. Morally repugnant, but OOCly there is no problem with this at all! In fact, I've had DM both kill children and place down a LOT of blood splatters and also had another DM tell me about how excited he was about seeing a character of mine bring harm to children.

There's even a GANG of children. Or was, I'm not really sure since it's kind of FOIG right now. Children are an integral part of society in RL and in EfU.

I really am sorry if that upsets you, if you don't like that RP'd. Regardless, it IS part of the setting. The boundaries are few when it comes to ethical behavior IC for EfU. No sex-related stuff (even romantic relationships between PCs is very closely watched because it gets, well, really kind of weird sometimes; though a degree of romance is certainly a good thing!), but aside from that no other restrictions come to mind.

Lastly, kobolds really DO eat children. Goblins do too. Then again, they'll eat just about anything. Roleplaying them appropriately is a good thing!

Well i suppose it comes down to taste i have never found a romantic relationship all that bad, but i don't think i could stomach watching that to be honest.

Garem also had another DM tell me about how excited he was about seeing a character of mine bring harm to children.

That i just find worrying if someone is getting excited about that i think i would be advising them to seek help seriously.

Wait a minute, this is something I hadn't considered before...

Eating children is accepted and even encouraged but sex isn't?

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Ever get the feeling maybe we ARE the people those anti-D&D folks try to warn us about?

Absolutely not.

I don't think there's really even a big problem with sex.

You're just not allowed to roleplay it out.

I don't think anybody is expecting people to roleplay out disemboweling a screaming child, either -- using an IGMS wand on a group of them is one thing, it's a flash of light and some screams on a computer screen - it's kind of different from "*sticks the child in the throat with a rusty hook*" which is (I hope) just as inappropriate as "*humps her sweetly*".

It's also hugely uncomfortable to walk in on that, and the DMs very often do - hence why they dislike cybersex so much on this server.

Garem ... I've had DM both kill children and place down a LOT of blood splatters and also had another DM tell me about how excited he was about seeing a character of mine bring harm to children...

You use strange words, Garem. XD. Let's try to find out who!!

<.<

>.>

Off topic now, we got the point.

I was at an arena event, and there were comments on half-orcs being monstors. now that's bull. Just because they're half-orcs doesn't mean they are evil. Same with kobolds, was Deekin evil? NO. Was the Goblin Tribe under Duskwood and Ember in NWN 2 evil? Doubt it. Are ALL Drow evil? Well, the Followers of Estralie (NWN: HotU) weren't evil.

Point is, the prejuice needs to stop.

Boo! I'm a bleeding heart, tolerance loving lefty in real life! It feels good to badmouth goblins and kobolds knowing that I've got a divine God backing me up!

Luke Danger I was at an arena event, and there were comments on half-orcs being monstors. now that's bull. Just because they're half-orcs doesn't mean they are evil. Same with kobolds, was Deekin evil? NO. Was the Goblin Tribe under Duskwood and Ember in NWN 2 evil? Doubt it. Are ALL Drow evil? Well, the Followers of Estralie (NWN: HotU) weren't evil.

Point is, the prejuice needs to stop.

Evil is real here. Prejudice against evil races is based on fact.

All the examples you have there are tiny minorities. Eilistraens are one in a thousand, Kobolds and Goblins are naturally evil, Half-Orcs aren't evil, certainly, but they're often chaotic, animalistic, and they're half-breeds from creatures that are also inately evil. Racism in FR does actually make sense, because Orcs, Drow, Kobolds and Goblins all go around pillaging, killing and slaughtering in the majority.

What humans don't go on on rampages of raping and looting? I imagine at one point in human history, in RL and Faerune, humans were mostly barabaric and self-centered. Even today in Faerune we still are, if you ask any druid that is.

Even in the monster mannual it says that drow, orcs, goblins, and kobolds are usually evil, not always.

I can understand that a miss guided 'good' person, some one evil, or some one neutral will go on goblin targeted killing-sprees but to go out and kill every single goblin on the face of the planet (genocide) or at least try and then have a god of justice tell you that was the right thing to do? No, it's not right.

Killing evil creatures does not make you a good guy, it might not make you a villian. Hell even the evil creatures kill each other off in far larger numbers then the good guys do.

Really what makes true evil, and really great RP, is a person who does evil actions and had the capabilty to do good actions the whole time.

Lansert

I can understand that a miss guided 'good' person, some one evil, or some one neutral will go on goblin targeted killing-sprees but to go out and kill every single goblin on the face of the planet (genocide) or at least try and then have a god of justice tell you that was the right thing to do? No, it's not right.

You would be right. Unless one of those creatures begged for mercy, surrendered, and worked hard to redeem itself.

That IS justice against evil in a world where good and evil are real.

Killing evil creatures does not make you a good guy, it might not make you a villian. Hell even the evil creatures kill each other off in far larger numbers then the good guys do.

Killing evil creatures DOES make you good in a world where evil and good are real things.

If you really want, I'll debate you over this point by point, but that will get long. Bottom line is, you're looking at a subjective morality when Dungeons and Dragons is an objective morality.

Gygax based alignment on Platonic philosophy. Read up a little and it'll be clarified by the Republic.

Lansert I can understand that a miss guided 'good' person, some one evil, or some one neutral will go on goblin targeted killing-sprees but to go out and kill every single goblin on the face of the planet (genocide) or at least try and then have a god of justice tell you that was the right thing to do? No, it's not right.

I think that considering that the gods are constantly trying to kill each other in the name of good/evil/law/chaos would show that it is indeed right. After all, gods are what would define what is right or wrong in that sort of world.

All goblins/kobolds/illithid in EfU are evil. "Evil" and "Good" in the Forgotten Realms/EfU setting are objective truths defined by an overgod. There is room for IC debate about morality and shades of grey, but do keep in mind that in the setting we are playing in is very different from our own world in terms of ethics/morality and the nature of good/evil.

All goblin/kobold PCs will have an evil alignment. This does not mean that they may not have redeeming features (loyalty towards a master, courage in battle, selflessness towards a tribe), but by and large they will be evil, and this should be reflected in the RP of anyone who is playing a goblin/kobold/other monster.

I think there is room for some characters to defend goblins/kobolds. NPCs such as Gobbler, Lord Bunge, etc. certainly are mostly harmless, and I have no problem with PC monsters that adopt to similarly quirky, colorful, non-hostile roles (a pathetic goblin beggar or kobold servant, for instance). Every monster-PC does not need to be RP'ed as a blood-thirsty creature creature incapable of peaceful contact with humans. Some PCs, perhaps particularly adventurers, may develop a soft-spot for some goblins/kobolds, and even seek to defend them from the bullying of others. I am fine with that.

Of course, this should be done carefully. The original poster is correct in that the culture of our setting does not have any kind of "Civil rights" tradition, and furthermore is completely ludicrous to suggest that some sort of comparison can be made between monsters such as goblins/kobolds and disadvantaged groups in the real world.

Examples of things that would be in bad taste for EfU:

"Leave the goblin alone! You only hate him because he doesn't look like you."

A kobold non-violent peace march.

A goblin sit-in at the Last Stand.

"That's racism!"

"You're prejudiced against goblins."

And so on.

I agree with what's being said in this thread, and many of the ways of saying it. I even agree personally in that I don't like seeing people show overt kindness or deference to evil races. Nobody in EfU has met Drizzt, there, I said it.

However, I don't think it would be in bad taste to have a peace rally or to fight for equal rights for goblins and such, and the reason I think this is because, in EfU, there -is- a history of such equality. There are reasons, fully IC, that some characters might support such initiatives.

I just don't think they'd work.

The Goblin Defense Fund

Because a goblin is a terrible thing to waste.

and, in case anyone comes across a LARGE force of non-hostile NPC goblins in some remote cave... you still have to have DM permission to slaughter them.. even if you HATE ALL GOBLINS (came up just a minute ago, before crash...)

good thing we did not attack them

i only posted this cause i really did not know what to do... IC i should have killed them.. but OOC they were set to non-hostile by a dm for a reason...

It's a blanket rule. You're not allowed to attack Blue/Neutral NPCs without DM observation.

Yes, most likely those blue NPCs were there because a DM was setting up a DM quest or event, and you ran into it earlier than expected. The NPCs would need to be possessed properly, or you'd be asked to leave the area because the DM wasn't set up yet. It has nothing to do with the NPCs being goblins, they could be beggars or beholders or anything.

I concur with RwG and would like to say playing goblins has been incredibly fun with that bounty up on them. So thanks!

Random_White_Guy

Sure. If you're the 1/100 people who doesn't hate goblins, -and- your life was saved by one, -AND- you survived slavery with one, Perhaps I could see this. But honestly?

THe DMs have said time and again that they are evil monsters. As are Orcs, Orogs, and other creatures.

There are no dms in Faerun or Sanctuary... :roll:

Just like the Drow.

To see a PC who hates questing monsters, but protect a PC monsters, and adamantly stands up against people trying to do "Good" by killing them (AS the DMs have stated numerous times, Goblins are 100% evil, killing them is good).

Stop humanizing monsters. People who play them expect it to be difficult. That's half of the allure. EFU on hard mode. Its why people apply for Drow and to a lesser extent, Duergar. These Subraces were just deemed non-application to allow more people to play.

Personally, I think it is more fun to interact with monster pcs than to chase them all day.

Now, hating monsters pcs is as well and good, but... does your character hate and attack ALL monsters pcs and npcs? You take on weak kobolds and goblins but did you ever take on Gorblor? I'm sure a dm would be happy to possess it so you could attack him and be just as consistent with your character as you ask other players to be with theirs. What about Bunge? Did you buy stuff from him? I hope not, because that would mean you trade with the evil monsters you are supposed to exterminate.

Now something that is quite odd to me is that we are supposed to hunt monsters, not because they are monsters (a different race) but because they are evil. So now I ask... What about the evil pcs? What about the evil Watch pcs, Spellguard pcs? Are we supposed to exterminate all of them also? If we must hunt monster pcs, not because they are of another race, but because they are evil, why should we let non-monster evil pcs alone? And why are these characters allowed to join factions in the first place? There are more than enough paladins out there with detect evil who can check these characters. Isn't it ludicrous? While goblins are to be Sanctuary ennemies, not because they are goblins, but because of their alignement, evil pcs can join Sanctuary factions with no problem!

If this is true, then I believe dms themselves contradict their argument about racism.

A character who sees a goblin alone in town may think there are good chances he has exiled himself from his tribe because he wanted to lead a peaceful life. A goblin tribe is evil because most of its members are evil, so when you have to fight them, you can't make any distinction. But when you encounter a lone goblin, then you have opportunity to find out what he is up to, and even try to redeem him if you are a good aligned character. The same thing applies to real word: during war, in a battle, you just have to kill your ennemies, but what if you find a desertor?

Just because they are evil doesn't mean they are to be killed. There is evil, and there is evil. A goblin who robs people but spare their life is evil, but does he deserve to be killed? I think not.

And finally, this is not the surface. Characters are not supposed to hate monster pcs like goblins and orcs as much as if they lived in the surface, where these races are much more frequent. Some pcs never had to fight them, since they were born in Sanctuary. Additionally, I believe the common past as slaves tend to create some sort of tolerance between different people, not to talk of the need to be united against three common foes.

So are you telling us to stop being Hypocritical? I suppose that means I have to kill half orcs as well JUST to be consistent with some of my character views on monsters.

Denko LOL so it wouldn't suffice to be saved by one?

But which Goblin would actually save somebody? It's an incredibly unlikely situation.

Denko The fact they are evil monsters doesn't mean ALL of them are evil. Besides, what the dms say doesn't matter, because we are talking about what characters think, not what players think.

Yes, but if 99% of them are evil, what are the chances that the one you have in front of you isn't? And, what characters think is even more reinforced into hating them, as they have time and time again seen their evil, been raided by, and brought up to hate, all monster races.

Denko here aren't good drows?

They're rare enough for nobody to know of their existance but an immensly select few.

Denko Oh yeah, so all the people who hunts pc monsters wanna do "good"? Even the evil aligned ones??

I'd say yes. Evil is, in races such as humans, not always simple- They may wish to protect Sanctuary, or they're hypcrits who believe that Goblins are evil while they're not. Killing Goblins and Kobolds rarely fits into any world-wide domination plans.

Denko I guess we should ask the concerned players whether they like to be hunted or not, shouldn't we?

If you play a Goblin or Kobold, expect to be hunted. It's the fun of it. If you don't want to be, play something else.

Denko So now I ask... What about the evil pcs? What about the evil Watch pcs, Spellguard pcs? Are we supposed to exterminate all of them also? If we must hunt monster pcs, not because they are of another race, but because they are evil, why should we let non-monster evil pcs alone? And why are these characters allowed to join factions in the first place? There are more than enough paladins out there with detect evil who can check these characters. Isn't it ludicrous? While goblins are to be Sanctuary ennemies, not because they are goblins, but because of their alignement, evil pcs can join Sanctuary factions with no problem!

The reasoning behind this is that evil PCs are not always evil out of heritage. They may be seeking to protect Sanctuary, or they may be corrupt, but nobody knows- And people do not like having quite possibly more than a third of their race wiped out because Paladins say that they might threaten lives in the future.

Denko pcs never had to fight them, since they were born in Sanctuary.

This implies they are not a threat to Sanctuary. This is untrue, there have been numerous Kobold and Goblin invasions, as well as constant Kobold and Goblin botherings- For example, the Hungry, Hungry Kobolds quest, or the constant gangs of hostile monsters about in the Underdark.

Denko, thanks for posting. This gives me an opportunity to clarify this issue. I think there is some confusion.

The fact they are evil monsters doesn't mean ALL of them are evil. Besides, what the dms say doesn't matter, because we are talking about what characters think, not what players think.

There are no dms in Faerun or Sanctuary...

No, all goblins/kobolds in EfU are evil. You may want to review my earlier posts in this thread. Evil is not subjective in this particular setting (if you need clarification on what that means, feel free to ask). Now, at the same time, it is certainly true and appropriate that some characters would not mind goblins, or like them even, or not think they're bad. That's fine. But make no mistake, all goblins/kobold PCs are evil.

If you have a character that likes goblins - that is fine. Maybe he had dealings with them while they shared the bondage of slavery. There are plenty of perfectly responsible IC reasons to defend goblins, to not attack goblins, and so on. Although evil in the FR is objective, there are certainly different degrees of evil, and a goblin who is more pathetic and cowardly than bloodthirsty is fine.

However, as a general rule goblins/kobolds are not liked, not treated as humans, and you may want to keep that in mind for your character's perspective on this issue.

Additionally, the language/experience of the civil rights movement or other movements that we've experienced in the real world have NO bearing in this setting. Defend a goblin sure, but allegations of "racism" or "don't be prejudiced" is tasteless and just not the right way to do it in this setting. It's using language that comes from RL history, whereas in the FR it's not a matter of different gender or ethnicity but the fact is that these are totally different species who are pretty much always dangerous to have around.

Finally, it is true that a major part of the fun of playing these monstrous races is the feeling of being hunted and hated by a healthy amount of the PCs you have dealings with.

I think that's the main point, the rest that's been brought up is sort of tangential to the discussion.

Thomas_Not_very_wise So are you telling us to stop being Hypocritical? I suppose that means I have to kill half orcs as well JUST to be consistent with some of my character views on monsters.

Except that half-orcs are not monsters. And what character are you talking about anyway? As far as I remember, Apon not only did not fight my half-orc, but didn't do anything that could lead one to think he hates them.

But which Goblin would actually save somebody? It's an incredibly unlikely situation.

Yes, but if 99% of them are evil, what are the chances that the one you have in front of you isn't?

And, what characters think is even more reinforced into hating them, as they have time and time again seen their evil, been raided by, and brought up to hate, all monster races.

They're rare enough for nobody to know of their existance but an immensly select few.

Denko Oh yeah, so all the people who hunts pc monsters wanna do "good"? Even the evil aligned ones??

I'd say yes.

Denko I guess we should ask the concerned players whether they like to be hunted or not, shouldn't we?

If you play a Goblin or Kobold, expect to be hunted. It's the fun of it. If you don't want to be, play something else.

The reasoning behind this is that evil PCs are not always evil out of heritage.

They may be seeking to protect Sanctuary, or they may be corrupt, but nobody knows- And people do not like having quite possibly more than a third of their race wiped out because Paladins say that they might threaten lives in the future.

And you would be wrong. Some characters may hunt goblins only for a reward, for sport, or because of bloodthirst. Saying killing monsters, independently of who does it and the reason why he does it, is a good act, is nonsense. As far as I know, NO killing is even considered good in D&D, unless it involves some sort of sacrifice on your part.

lol, no questing for paladins.

Killing evil is the ultimate good act. Smite Evil? Even bigger killing, rewarded to the goodest only.

Howland:

I'm fine with all goblins being evil in EFU, although that doesn't mean this holds true for other D&D settings. For example, desert goblins have a good aligned deity, and it is mentioned there are more in their pantheon. Also, I think whether someone is evil or not, even people like drows, depends on how they are raised, but that's for another debate.

But I'm in EFU, so if goblins are evil, they are evil, although as you also pointed out there are different kinds of evil.

I also understand many monster pcs have fun being hated and hunted, but I doubt they play a monster race ONLY for that... and I guess some would interact in a normal way with other pcs, even a few, for a change.

SkillFocuspwn Killing evil is the ultimate good act. Smite Evil? Even bigger killing, rewarded to the goodest only.

Simply, I never saw an alignement shift towards good happen when killing an evil NPC, especially not when the PC is evil. If you did, then please tell us.

lol, no questing for paladins.

And you would be wrong. Some characters may hunt goblins only for a reward, for sport, or because of bloodthirst. Saying killing monsters, independently of who does it and the reason why he does it, is a good act, is nonsense. As far as I know, NO killing is even considered good in D&D, unless it involves some sort of sacrifice on your part.

While killing Goblins may not be considered a "Good" act under all circumstances, it's certainly just as rare that it be considered "Evil". I'm fairly sure it's largely grey. And, as for the second part of that, lots of killing is considered good in D&D. Killing a Devil or Demon, for instance, would probably be a good act, so long as the direct consequences of it's death weren't worse than it living. Necromancers too. There's probably more I forgot.

Again, your argument make no sense. Nobody talked about wiping anyone out. I was talking about the hipocracy of saying goblins are to be hunted not because they are goblins but because they are evil, while not telling us, not only that we should let evil pcs alone for some unknown, but also that it is fine to give them positions of responsability while knowing full well they are evil. This is what doesn't make any sense at all. So either evil pcs are forbidden to join factions, either goblins stop being hunted, either paladins have their detect evil ability removed from them.

Also, Paladins don't monitor all factions, and aren't even in a place of power in the setting that they could possibly purge all factions of humanoid evil.

Edit:

Also, I think whether someone is evil or not, even people like drows, depends on how they are raised, but that's for another debate.

I'm fairly sure you'd be incorrect, at least in relation to this setting. Certain creatures in Faerun are simply born evil. It's instinctive. It's ingrained in their psyche.

Repeating it wont make your argument true...

Simply, I never saw an alignement shift towards good happen when killing an evil NPC, especially not when the PC is evil. If you did, then please tell us.

I believe that can be attributed to the fact that DMs simply can't be there to hand out alignment shifts every time something like this happens. And largely when it does happen, it's typically a character that's already Good. Those few times when a Non-Good character kills an Evil character, it can usually be attributed to something decidedly not-Good.

Howland

All goblin/kobold PCs will have an evil alignment. This does not mean that they may not have redeeming features (loyalty towards a master, courage in battle, selflessness towards a tribe), but by and large they will be evil, and this should be reflected in the RP of anyone who is playing a goblin/kobold/other monster.

Examples of things that would be in bad taste for EfU:

"Leave the goblin alone! You only hate him because he doesn't look like you."

A kobold non-violent peace march.

A goblin sit-in at the Last Stand.

"That's racism!"

"You're prejudiced against goblins."

And so on.

Howland I have a quick question that might cut to the heart of the debate, and it deals with whether or not evil in EfU is nature or nurture.

If I am playing a Paladin and uncover a goblin village, would I find that all of the goblins there are evil? What of the goblin women (who are oppressed by the males) and the children? If goblins are born evil would it be considered an evil act for a Paladin to kill a goblin baby or would it be considered a just act and ridding the world of evil?

Furthermore, if I am playing a Priest of Ilmater or Selune, for example, who tell their followers to be tolerant of everyone and to help all who need it, then how do goblins fit into this view? If they are born evil, can they be redeemed through RP by a Priest of Ilmater, who works to draw a goblin away from his evil ways? Or would such an action forever be impossible due to the fact that they are basically no different than demons or devils?

Also, does this apply to other races outside of goblins such as Drow? Can a Drow be redeemed? What about Duergar? Beholders? Illithid? Kobolds?

I am trying to determine where 'evil' starts. Is it nature or nurture?

While killing Goblins may not be considered a "Good" act under all circumstances, it's certainly just as rare that it be considered "Evil". I'm fairly sure it's largely grey. And, as for the second part of that, lots of killing is considered good in D&D. Killing a Devil or Demon, for instance, would probably be a good act, so long as the direct consequences of it's death weren't worse than it living. Necromancers too. There's probably more I forgot.

Also, Paladins don't monitor all factions, and aren't even in a place of power in the setting that they could possibly purge all factions of humanoid evil.

Denko

While killing Goblins may not be considered a "Good" act under all circumstances, it's certainly just as rare that it be considered "Evil". I'm fairly sure it's largely grey. And, as for the second part of that, lots of killing is considered good in D&D. Killing a Devil or Demon, for instance, would probably be a good act, so long as the direct consequences of it's death weren't worse than it living. Necromancers too. There's probably more I forgot.

If it is, I have never seen it. I believe it is more logical to take in count who kills the devil and why he does it. Whether the consequences are is unimportant, since an evil character killing a devil, whether the consequences of the killing are worse, better, or equal, most probably does it for its own interest so it cannot be considered a good act.

Also, Paladins don't monitor all factions, and aren't even in a place of power in the setting that they could possibly purge all factions of humanoid evil.

They don't need to be in a place of power to tell everyone who is evil and who isn't.

I also agree this wouldn't make sense, but as I said, it looks like there is a contradiction between the fact that goblins are the ennemies only because they are evil, and the fact that known evil pcs are just as accepted anywhere as the next guy.

Define "known evil". If you're talking about people who Paladins point at and call evil, then yes, they're accepted most anywhere. I'll remind you that more than one person has successfully masqueraded as a Paladin and declared people evil. Or that we had a sizable suicide cult in which a great many people were persuaded that they were actually in a layer of the Nine Hells. Point being- People can be easily persuaded to believe things that, when viewed from the perspective of someone who's familiar with sourcebooks and the like, are downright ridiculous. It's not easy to convince people that someone's evil just by calling them it, most of the time.

Now, if you mean -actual- known Evil, then no, they aren't accepted anywhere as the next guy. Goblins, Drow, Duergar, yes. But also people like Captain Thorn & Co. People who go around slaying, maiming, mugging, sacrificing to evil gods, and cannibalizing their fellow man are generally not welcomed everywhere. There are plenty of factors in play aside from whether or not a Humanoid PC is accepted somewhere or not. And as for Goblins, while they are an almost wholly evil race, it's more than them just being labelled evil. The few times they are not kept in check by force, they have been known to be horribly destructive to their environment and most every other creature in it. There's thousands of years of blood between them and every other race. Everything considered, neglecting the routine culling of their species would probably prove to irreparably harm Faerun in the long run.

Yes I am a Hypocrite. I buy potions from bunge yet kill Kobolds in lower, I don't see a problem here!

Wow, there's been an eruption of posts in this thread today. I'll add my two cents here as well, I guess.

The argument that killing monsters is good holds some weight, but good-aligned PCs shouldn't take this as meaning that killing monsters is mandatory, or the only choice when encountering them. In Shadows of Undrentide, for example, if you choose the dialogue option to let the kobolds in the kitchen escape (this happens in the first area, doesn't take too long to get too) you get an alignment shift towards good. The dialogue option goes something along the lines of, "If we kill them when they surrender, we're no better than they are." Killing them doesn't get you an alignment shift any direction, indicating neutral (but saving the cook does get you a good alignment shift). Obviously, Shadows of Undrentide is not the epitome of FR canonical lore or anything even remote to it, but other D&D PC games (I can't think of specific examples) provide you with options where letting the evil monsters go is a good act.

It seems to me that the choice of whether to kill a monster outright, no questions asked, to hear what it has to say, and then decide, or to show it mercy despite the consequences you'll probably face later depends more on your deity, experience with monsters, and how good the monster is at talking you out of it. Obviously with deities that promote slaying of certain species there's no question. Some deities, though, promote peace and mercy to the point where even a paladin who can detect the evil of the creature would face quite the moral dilemma over whether to end its life or not.

In regards to the hunting of kobold and goblin PCs (or any other monster, for that matter), it's definitely fun to be on both sides of the chase, but when the hunting party finally catches and subdues the monster, they should try to make the death fun for the player (as opposed to just having FD mode on before combat even starts). Let the monster plead for its life. Chances are, since the PC probably put up more of a fight than the typical kobold or goblin, the characters who caught it would be interested in knowing what made it different than all the others. And even though you as a player know that non-evil monster PCs don't exist on EfU, it's possible that the character would not know for a fact that the monster is evil. If it's a particularly good bluffer, the monster might be able to convince the other characters that it really is a helpless little creature who really only has the best intentions for everyone.

Given that this is the Underdark, and the city of Sanctuary even has had non-hostile relationships with both goblins and kobolds in the past (still holding on to that relationship with a certain tribe of kobolds, I believe), it is possible that some of the characters who have supposedly been in the city awhile have been desensitized a little to their presence.

That's not to say anyone should ever defend a kobold or goblin with, "Don't be racist!" or similar arguments. As someone who often plays kobolds who come across as not too bad, I'd rather see somebody defend me on the basis of, "Yeah, they're nasty little blighters, but this one ain't so bad," than have them whip out the "R-word." Not only is it out of context to shout, "Racist!" it usually isn't the best way to convince somebody not to slaughter your scaly little friend. The other person isn't going to respond too well to accusations and insults, but they might respond better is you tell them how useful the monster is, or how you worked together in a drow slave camp, or maybe just point out that it's pretty pathetic, and if it ever decides to make the mistake of hurting someone, it would be easy enough to kill it then.

Killing monster PCs also makes sense when bounties are involved, but even then it doesn't have to be an instant FD situation. If the monster can find a way to be worth more alive than the value of the bounty, greedy PCs might delay the killing until the monster has earned them a little extra profit. Of course, if it's obvious the monster is just going to use it as an excuse to run away as soon as it's released, killing it is a good idea.

Another reason to have a less radical approach to monsters is that you're not always going to get a DM for PvP, and if your character is the kind who can leave it off as just a conflict of words, it will result in a lot less OOC chat and more RP. (In this case it's important for the player of the monster not to push it too far, because then they are kind of taking advantage of the absence of DM, which is metagaming. It also doesn't really make sense to agree to go duel in the Sewers just because there's no DM on, because I don't think many goblins or kobolds are too interested in honorable duels).

I can't enumerate all the different situations for interaction between monsters and standard races here, but I think the ones I've brought up are some of the more common scenarios, and fairly representative of other situations that might arise. Even the monster PCs are here just trying to make cool stories. Most of the time they deserve an FD as soon as they go down, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the default option, just because it's a valid option.

They don't need to be in place in powers to tell everyone who is evil and who isn't.

If they don't want to be declared a lunatic, yes they do. Pointing at someone and calling them evil doesn't work unless you can actually make people believe you, for some reason or another. This is not the case with Goblins, for the most part.

If it is, I have never seen it. I believe it is more logical to take in count who kills the devil and why he does it. Whether the consequences are is unimportant, since an evil character killing a devil, whether the consequences of the killing are worse, better, or equal, most probably does it for its own interest so it cannot be considered a good act.

While I already addressed this, I'll indulge you. The consequences of said act would include said character's benefits. If said character benefits, it might possibly not be a good act- For instance if they usurped said being's power. However, short of actually becoming as powerful and heinous as the creature in question, you're usually doing Good a favor, as it's rare that a mortal becomes as great a font of evil as a fiend.

Goblins were invented by Gary Gygax so low level adventurers could kill them, while adventuring. I don't think it's far fetched for an adventurer to slaughter every goblin he comes across. Good or evil, they are monsters, and this is a fantasy setting.

Slay the monsters, that's what they're there for.

When I play a goblin I play to die, sirs. I play to survive, and die, and maybe mug someone if I'm lucky. If you don't play along and hunt me, I'll turn the tables and hunt you, like the vicious little goblin I am.

Define "known evil". If you're talking about people who Paladins point at and call evil, then yes, they're accepted most anywhere. I'll remind you that more than one person has successfully masqueraded as a Paladin and declared people evil.

Now, if you mean -actual- known Evil, then no, they aren't accepted anywhere as the next guy. Goblins, Drow, Duergar, yes. But also people like Captain Thorn & Co. People who go around slaying, maiming, mugging, sacrificing to evil gods, and cannibalizing their fellow man are generally not welcomed everywhere.

The few times they are not kept in check by force, they have been known to be horribly destructive to their environment and most every other creature in it. There's thousands of years of blood between them and every other race. Everything considered, neglecting the routine culling of their species would probably prove to irreparably harm Faerun in the long run.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Yes I am a Hypocrite. I buy potions from bunge yet kill Kobolds in lower, I don't see a problem here!

Hypocrisy is never a problem as long as it doesn't affect the actual player.

Denko ... something about hypocrisy.

MithrilDragon

While I already addressed this, I'll indulge you. The consequences of said act would include said character's benefits. If said character benefits, it might possibly not be a good act- For instance if they usurped said being's power. However, short of actually becoming as powerful and heinous as the creature in question, you're usually doing Good a favor, as it's rare that a mortal becomes as great a font of evil as a fiend.

Whether they benefit good or not is, I repeat, irrelevant. A good act is not defined by who you benefit, or not, it is defined by the INTENTION your character has when killing the monster. For the simple reason that alignement were made to represent the moral values and ethics of a character. Yes, killing a bloodthirsty monster is an act that would benefit many people, but it isn't automatically considered good for purposes of character alignement. If alignement represented the view other people have of a character, then it would be a good act. But since it represents the moral values and ethics, then it will only be a good act if the character's intention is ONLY to help others than himself (or people dear to them).

That's why you don't get any alignement shift towards good for killing Klauth in the OC, but automatically gets an alignement shift towards evil if you kill Gorgotha. In the first case, your intentions are not clear, while in the second case they are.

Snoteye

Denko ... something about hypocrisy.

This is slightly amusing. I don't know if you realize it, but what you're basically encouraging is griefing of the worst kind.

Whether they benefit good or not is, I repeat, irrelevant. A good act is not defined by who you benefit, or not, it is defined by the INTENTION your character has when killing the monster. For the simple reason that alignement were made to represent the moral values and ethics of a character. Yes, killing a bloodthirsty monster is an act that would benefit many people, but it isn't automatically considered good for purposes of character alignement. If alignement represented the view other people have of a character, then it would be a good act. But since it represents the moral values and ethics, then it will only be a good act if the character's intention is ONLY to help others than himself (or people dear to them).

Sigh. Again.Intention is intrinsically tied to repercussions.

Again, I must ask you if anywhere killing evil monsters always shift your alignement towards good.

Though I may be wrong, I'm fairly sure DMs don't pay attention every single time a monster is killed. And as for when something's possessed, it doesn't always occur to a DM to hand out an alignment shift. There are other things on their mind. XP. Loot. People griefing. When a Paladin kills a Necromancer, please excuse them for not diverting their attention to the scene to give said Paladin a Good shift.

Of course they aren't. But in EFU you don't need to openly commit evil acts to be evil and to be known as such.

Generally speaking, reasonable characters prefer empirical evidence as opposed to religious zealots spewing forth insane accusations.

I didn't negate that. But we are talking of characters and individual goblins. Besides, some human peoples are just as destructive as monster races.

And those peoples generally aren't as concerned about wiping out evil monsters as they are with using them towards their own evil ends. Between that, diplomacy, and being of actual benefit to Faerun, cultural, social, economic, or otherwise- they tend to keep themselves fairly save. Thay, for example.

The masquerade ends when they must actually prove they are paladins. Yes, anyone can say they are paladins, but not anyone have paladin powers, and not anyone can turn undead, especially not showing the holy symbol of a good aligned deity.

No, it doesn't. It's not hard to masquerade as a Paladin. They're not the only ones who can turn undead. And, you don't have to turn undead to be viewed as a Paladin. More than a few I've seen haven't.

More importantly, I'll remind you that while we, as players, know that Paladins can tell who's evil, that the common person of the Realms may not see it the same way. Depending on where you are, Paladins can be viewed as a fractious group of genocidal zealots who should be shunned at every corner and spurned in their insane accusations. Their authority isn't absolute. Especially in Sanctuary. So a Paladin says someone is Evil. What's that supposed to do? If said Evil person is a productive, intelligent, and discrete member of society, it's effect is null and void if a Paladin isn't in control, or in an advisory position.

Sanctuary's concern isn't about purging itself of Evil. It's primarily survival and managing itself. Goblins, a wholly evil and destructive group, tend to work against that. Evil Humans, however can be just as beneficial as anyone else. Perhaps even more so. The Watchman who tortures a man for hours to learn information that saves the city. The Wizard who resurrects the dead to protect the gates from an onslaught. The Bounty Hunter who's malicious and frightful tactics allow him to capture those who'd destroy the city. The Crime Boss who's reign of terror actually prevents a group of armed men from inciting war and killing innocents. There are degrees of evil in humanoids which are acceptable and in fact beneficial to survival in the stark and bleak setting of the Underdark. Goblins don't typically fit into this. Again, they are monsters, in the classical sense. They are instinctively inclined towards maliciousness and depraved behavior. There is little doubt that if they were not routinely culled, their numbers could allow them to cause irreparable harm to the citizenry. These creatures do not function in the same way most humanoids do. Goblins != Tabula Rasa. Place a male child in a neutral area of the Realms, and come back when he's an adult, there's a good chance he'll be of any alignment. Put a Goblin child somewhere, and find him when he's an adult. Chances are he'll be less than twenty meters away, praying on small wildlife and stabbing unwary travelers.

Wow, if you find yourself in a moral swamp playing in EfU then you have problems.

STFU and get in game!

Pointing out here that what you all seem to be discussing is irrelevant due to the fact that moralistic views are societally based IRL and DM and campaign generated here. Arguing about little things like this fails to better the game environment IMO because you spend more time writting posts than actually doing fun things IG--like, sitting on the town hall steps for hours.

Get in there and be morally ambiguous!

Denko

Snoteye

Denko ... something about hypocrisy.

This is slightly amusing. I don't know if you realize it, but what you're basically encouraging is griefing of the worst kind.

No I don't ... could you explain me?

MithrilDragon

Whether they benefit good or not is, I repeat, irrelevant. A good act is not defined by who you benefit, or not, it is defined by the INTENTION your character has when killing the monster. For the simple reason that alignement were made to represent the moral values and ethics of a character. Yes, killing a bloodthirsty monster is an act that would benefit many people, but it isn't automatically considered good for purposes of character alignement. If alignement represented the view other people have of a character, then it would be a good act. But since it represents the moral values and ethics, then it will only be a good act if the character's intention is ONLY to help others than himself (or people dear to them).

Sigh. Again.Intention is intrinsically tied to repercussions.

That doesn't mean anything. Anyway, you are completely ignoring my arguments above.

Again, I must ask you if anywhere killing evil monsters always shift your alignement towards good.

Though I may be wrong, I'm fairly sure DMs don't pay attention every single time a monster is killed.

Generally speaking, reasonable characters prefer empirical evidence as opposed to religious zealots spewing forth insane accusations.

So if a paladin tells a Spellguard agent or a Watch soldier is evil, then everyone must accept he IS evil.

I didn't negate that. But we are talking of characters and individual goblins. Besides, some human peoples are just as destructive as monster races.

And those peoples generally aren't as concerned about wiping out evil monsters as they are with using them towards their own evil ends. Between that, diplomacy, and being of actual benefit to Faerun, cultural, social, economic, or otherwise- they tend to keep themselves fairly save. Thay, for example.

No, it doesn't. It's not hard to masquerade as a Paladin. They're not the only ones who can turn undead. And, you don't have to turn undead to be viewed as a Paladin. More than a few I've seen haven't.

The masquerade ends when they must actually prove they are paladins. Yes, anyone can say they are paladins, but not anyone have paladin powers, and not anyone can turn undead, especially not showing the holy symbol of a good aligned deity.

More importantly, I'll remind you that while we, as players, know that Paladins can tell who's evil, that the common person of the Realms may not see it the same way. Depending on where you are, Paladins can be viewed as a fractious group of genocidal zealots who should be shunned at every corner and spurned in their insane accusations.

Sanctuary's concern isn't about purging itself of Evil. It's primarily survival and managing itself. Goblins, a wholly evil and destructive group, tend to work against that. Evil Humans, however can be just as beneficial as anyone else. Perhaps even more so.

The Watchman who tortures a man for hours to learn information that saves the city. The Wizard who resurrects the dead to protect the gates from an onslaught. The Bounty Hunter who's malicious and frightful tactics allow him to capture those who'd destroy the city. The Crime Boss who's reign of terror actually prevents a group of armed men from inciting war and killing innocents.

- The same wizard who ressurects the dead for his own benefits after the onslaught is over?

- The same bounty hunter who kill Watchmen and Spellguard agents if he is paid for it?

- The same crime boss who's reign of terror keep innocents in misery?

It seems you are trying to depict evil non monster characters as merely bad boys only want to defend their city, but it doesn't work that way.

There are degrees of evil in humanoids which are acceptable and in fact beneficial to survival in the stark and bleak setting of the Underdark. Goblins don't typically fit into this. Again, they are monsters, in the classical sense. They are instinctively inclined towards maliciousness and depraved behavior.

Why does a Kobold tribe have an embassy in Sanctuary?

LOL.

Best thread ever.

I propose we script, through Arkov, a system where every character's every motivation for every action is taken into account every second of every day, in order to build a fluid alignment chart-system.

...for the lulz.

Snoteye

Denko

Snoteye

Denko ... something about hypocrisy.

This is slightly amusing. I don't know if you realize it, but what you're basically encouraging is griefing of the worst kind.

No I don't ... could you explain me?

You're attacking the fact that people with racial prejudice are not consistent in their hatred towards NPCs, completely failing to understand that that lack of consistency is primarily due to OOC restraints, either because a DM isn't immediately available to assist in killing the NPC(s) in question or because we don't want the NPC(s) in question to die. However much you hate them, there are NPCs we won't let you kill.

Not that I care about the way other people play. If you hunt kobolds while trading with kobolds, that's fine. You can try to justify it in game, although that would be rather difficult. If your character is inconsistent that's fine, I don't care. It's possible there is a lot to say about how I play my own characters also. But what you can't do is being inconsistent in your playing and then accuse other people of the same thing.

Inevitable Thread-is-Going-Nowhere Post

• Goblins are evil.
• Goblins may be killed for being (evil) goblins.
• It's perfectly acceptable to play a character that isn't hellbent on wiping out the goblin race.
• "Equal rights for all races" and anything like it is not a concept that exists in EfU.
• Paladins don't glow; it's easy to pretend to be one.
• "Goblin," in this and all preceding posts, can largely be substituted with the name of any other race, such as kobold, that is similarly predispositioned towards the civilized races, except in the cases where the discussion has dealt specifically with goblins (i.e. faiths).