The Beggar

As for the "ninja looting", when I have seen it happen it is usually borderline or gross metagaming of game mechanics. Especially when said looting happens during (ie right in the middle of) combat taking place. How things are picked through from a dead persons bag while fighting is raging a foot away from the body is beyond me.

It's my understanding via a discussion with a member of the DM team that the rationale stated above does not apply to IC muggings, where you *can* loot someone's bag while, not just in a battle scene, but phsyically getting swung at and chased all over.

I think this is a topic ripe for general discussion.

Does anyone have a comment on this?

Yes, if you subdue someone you can quickly grab their gold purse. This has always been allowed by EFU rules. Also, Beggar's statement refers to, I believe, a player stealing loot (read, lots of objects) from someone else's pack after they had died on a scripted quest, then walking away like nothing had happened.

I hope this clarifies things for you!

This is unrelated to ninja looting, however, which is indeed frowned upon.

Please refrain from deliberately posting DM responses out of context in the future, this is not the first time you've done so.

A mugging where you emote *takes the gold* is not ninja-looting a fallen companion and running away with their gear.

If you can't do it while monster's and other people are fighting *around* you, then why could you do it while PCs are swinging *at* you?

It doesn't make much sense.

It's late, and my brain may not be working correctly, but I don't get it. What are you guys discussing? Clarify, por favor.

Metro_Pack This is unrelated to ninja looting, however, which is indeed frowned upon.

Please refrain from deliberately posting DM responses out of context in the future, this is not the first time you've done so.

How exactly have I posted a DM response out of context?

It's clear that taking things from dropped packs is within the context of the conversation.

If anything, this was exactly in context. If my understanding is incorrect, that's one thing, and I'd like to hear opinions as to why.

It's not ninja looting when you're mugged. That is pretty much the exact OPPOSITE of 'ninja looting'.

It's out of context because the answer Beggar gave was in reference to stealing items placed on the ground by PCs using stealth, aka ninja looting. It had nothing at all to do with PVP.

'Taking things from dropped packs' in itself is in no way against any rules.

dragonfire9000 It's late, and my brain may not be working correctly, but I don't get it. What are you guys discussing? Clarify, por favor.

It is my understanding that one cannot grab things from the pack of a dead or dying character in the middle of a scripted quest battle. The rationale is that it is grossly difficult to loot someone's things in the middle of combat.

Recently I found out that you can subdue other characters and grab their things while in the middle of combat. This is completely contrary to the rationale for why "ninja looting" is not allowed. Regardless of whether or not Metro Pack thinks I've taken the quote above or what was said to me out of context, I think there is a clear incongruity here.

The situations are definitely analogous.

It's late, and my brain may not be working correctly, but I don't get it. What are you guys discussing? Clarify, por favor.

Player A subdues Player B. Other PCs leap in to fight player A. Player A takes Player B's gold and runs away.

No, ninja looting is frowned upon because it's incredibly lame. It's just extra lame to run into combat and loot your party member while others may be dying.

Mugging people is not this.

Sorry for the confusion on that.

In my opinion, a coinpurse is not hard to grab from someone, even in a fight. However, if they were taking things like suits of armor or large weapons, then it might be a little lame and far fetched.

But if it's just gold, its not hard to do, and I see no problem.

There is a bank service, It's probably wise to use it if you do not wish to incur heavy losses.

IMO

Agreed. Ninja looting is "increadibly lame" because... "How things are picked through from a dead persons bag while fighting is raging a foot away from the body is beyond me."

Unless you're making an exception for gold coins because it's not lame to pick out the gold coins from someone's pack while getting swung at in the middle of combat, it doesn't make sense.

I really can't see how taking someone's gold and running off during combat is unacceptable!

Ninja looting relates to basically sifting through people's things when they were downed by NPC monsters, or during some sort of DM Event.

If you yourself subdued them, it is acceptable to take from them as you will

Primotris In my opinion, a coinpurse is not hard to grab from someone, even in a fight. However, if they were taking things like suits of armor or large weapons, then it might be a little lame and far fetched.

But if it's just gold, its not hard to do, and I see no problem.

There is a bank service, It's probably wise to use it if you do not wish to incur heavy losses.

IMO

I guess that would depend on the size of the coin purse, whether there are in fact several coin purses, whether they are stored in different locations within that person's personal effects, and numerous other factors.

You might be right if there is a *small* purse for common needs and every day transactions at the person's hip. It makes sense that you don't keep vast amounts of gold in one easily identifiable sack at your hip though.

Otherwise, a sack of gold in your pack is no different than anything else of equal weight and size. Some sacks of gold may even weigh more than the heaviest of armor.

Well, I agree and disagree, really. There's some things that don't make sense -- like taking their armor, taking a bunch of heavy stuff, or something. Yet I do think that after spending the time to beat someone down it's perfectly legitimate to scoop up their gold. You spend a few seconds paralyzed "dropping" the pack, and then you have to madly click to open it up (which is hard, as the body is generally over it, and sometimes impossible - which is silly.) So, you've got an uphill battle to get the gold -- and in the end, it's gold. It'd have been so much easier mechanically for the PC to just gut you. If they're just taking gold? Well, that's pretty awesome. I mean, you could always just use the bank! (Which, I think I've noticed very few people do...)

Anyways, of course I'm going to wildly attempt to justify it as it's what my own PC has been doing to people. It's rough, for sure, to lose your gold. Yet there's no 'safe' places on the server, and if merchants want a safer place to do their trading? They should get it done IG. If merchants don't want their gold, their goods stolen? Well, maybe paying off the bandits or something... who knows. In the end it's just PvP. You win some. You lose some.

Oh -- there's a mechanical solution to this in PvP, which is just to add to the pack timer which makes it harder to drop things. Also, if you're carrying around ridiculous amounts of gold... the banks are IG for just this reason. 10%'s a lot, but it's better then losing your gold to just such a mugging.

Kuo-Toa Killer Well, I agree and disagree, really. There's some things that don't make sense -- like taking their armor, taking a bunch of heavy stuff, or something.

Define the minimum of what "heavy" is.

If you could carry it, I don't see why she couldn't. <_<

ItalianStallion If you could carry it, I don't see why she couldn't. <_<

You're making exceptions to the rationale of why it's not OK to "ninja loot".

You're also saying that it's acceptable to take things regardless of weight or size.

You were owned.

You were looted.

'Nuff said.

You're making exceptions to the rationale of why it's not OK to "ninja loot".

You're also saying that it's acceptable to take things regardless of weight or size.

No, what you are doing is a strawman argument, and it is a fallacy.

What I have stated is

A)It is not ninja looting to take things from the pack of someone you have PvPed, as Ninja Looting is clearly defined as taking things from pack of someone you did not harm, but rather was downed by something else entirely (e.g. Someone killed/subdued during an invasion). Had a third party, for instance, taken your gold, after the attacker subdued you, that would have been ninja looting.

B)The idea that someone could not carry off the amount of gold is invalid, considering for them to have taken it, you too must have been holding it.

I will happily address your main point in a moment, but I do want to make a very sincere, respectful comment about what EfU is intended to be all about.

It is intended to be about something very intangible that we on the DM staff call "Awesome." "Awesome" does not come from rules-lawyering or getting-OOC upset about IC setbacks - although certainly we have rules that the DM staff must enforce in the interests of fairness for all.

"Awesome" is something rather more subjective. Allow me to provide some examples.

Playing a ballsy, non-FD'ing bandit that targets high-profile merchants with vastly superior levels + loot in the presence of other PCs (including Watch PCs), thus giving multiple factions something tangible they can work on (tracking down a criminal) along with the entire rest of the playerbase (bounty hunting, allying, etc. etc.) and just generally producing all kinds of RP = fairly awesome

Role-playing a furious merchant that's outraged over being robbed, and goes on to hire bounty-hunters to bring him the head of whoever robbed him while levying political clout to increase the security in Upper = potentially awesome

I think this is an opportunity for me to remind anyone reading this that the purpose of this server is not MMORPG tread-mill style loot/XP acquisition, but provide excitement and interesting stories for the playerbase, whether winning or losing. We are all just playing a game here, but the form of entertainment that we provide may well not be to everyone's tastes, and it is the business of every player to decide if we are the kind of server they enjoy, or the kind of server they do not enjoy.

Now, to address this specific question, and the rules regarding it.

"Ninja-looting" is generally defined as looting in a situation in which the character that is doing the looting really has no business doing any looting, as the PC has failed to earn it in any way. An example would be invis-stealth snatching-things up after another PC gets killed by a NPC during a laggy DM event, or clicking all the items in a dropped pack during some kind of arena event. So, a situation in which a bandit beats someone up, and then takes their gold, would not really be considered "ninja-looting" on EfU.

There is also the question of the plausibility of looting people's packs during combat. Beggar did write in a post say that he has seen examples of characters looting packs during combat that didn't seem plausible to him. I would agree - plucking multiple sets of fullplate out of a pack while someone is swinging at you is not very plausible. However there is a very real difference in terms of plausibility between picking up tons of heavy loot and spending more than a round (including time spent emoting) in plucking up a coin-purse, however heavy it may be.

So, in this situation, I would say I really see nothing implausible or illegitimate about what happened, although the lag and pack-unresponsiveness certainly complicated things, but that is a separate matter.

I hope this clarifies this issue, and a reminder to all: Sanctuary has many banks!

*scratched*

I guess that would depend on the size of the coin purse, whether there are in fact several coin purses, whether they are stored in different locations within that person's personal effects, and numerous other factors.

You might be right if there is a *small* purse for common needs and every day transactions at the person's hip. It makes sense that you don't keep vast amounts of gold in one easily identifiable sack at your hip though.

Otherwise, a sack of gold in your pack is no different than anything else of equal weight and size. Some sacks of gold may even weigh more than the heaviest of armor.

Here is another DM ruling for you. Coin purses are coin purses, regardless of amount (the plausibility aspect of huge sums of gold being kept on your person is something that is glossed over for the benefit of characters such as your own that choose to walk around with huge sums - I suppose one can assume high denomination coins, or whatever else, although this is really something that is simply best left vague for the purposes of OOC convenience).

In EfU, it is not legitimate to say that you are hiding your coin in your sock or hidden in your character's orifices, unless that is done through the context of some kind of DM event. Basically, if you mug someone, and spend the round with the yank_pack emote (or beat on them sufficiently, which also drops the pack), then you can feel free to take their gold, regardless of what is happening around you.

Taking heavy loot is a somewhat different matter, although there are no concrete rules regarding this, we would simply ask that players use their best judgement.

In this situation, in which only a very large sum of gold was taken, I do not see anything wrong.

I respectfully disagree.

[Edit] Any amount of coins found (assuming they're in one container) out of dozens of containers in a matter of seconds while the taker is getting hacked at is definitely implausable.

I think I have a fairly pertinent example that fits with this subject. When Frank Dederich first faced the Garagosians who eventually blew up the shrine to Tempus and the Red Knight, he was soundly defeated and quickly stripped of everything he owned, including a (by description) very large and nasty dire mace and another object not-easily-pilfered (the battle in question was witnessed by many, and Frank was stripped by countless people under DM supervision). I was beaten. I did not whine to the DMs that this or that should not have been taken. I would've loved to have all my lovely gear waiting for me when by some miracle a little halfling woman chose to raise Frank out of the goodness of her heart.

Actually, the whole situation added a great deal to the development of Frank. My RP paid off with characters knowing Frank and actually returning his weapon. Gear can be replaced. Or returned.

Put yourself out there and people will seek you out, I guarantee. You may have allies you didn't even know about. Some of Frank's closest allies now didn't appear until his death. Now he would hand over everything he owns to help them.

Don't try to "win". Just play your char. IMO

-Pup

Woah, this thread is a WARZONE.

It's a fantasy setting, socialmisfit, and-gasp!-the implausible is often not quite that in such settings. Trying to establish some sort of cushion of OOC protection to keep from getting looted when you lose in PvP is rather silly, and is never going to work; you win in PvP, you get to have your way with the other PC-that's the way it is, including loot. If you want to keep your gold and loot intact, don't get subdualed; but asking for the DMs to judge that it's impossible for someone to score gold off of you after they drop you based upon the idea that it's "implausible" for a fantasy character to do something that's impossible for you and me is just absurd.

To the victor, the spoils, as it should be; this is the way PvP is, and it isn't likely to ever change, nor should it.

I recommend chilling out with some vintage Poison and a few episodes of "Rock of Love 2" starring Brett Michaels (only on VH1) to dull the pain.

~Aquan Dreams~

I'm pursuing IC remedies. I don't need a lecture on the merits of doing this to understand why it's important for maintaining a fun atmosphere. Pursuing IC rememdies doesn't mean I don't or can't have a very reasonable and logically based objection to the situation.

The fact is, to me, and I guess not to many others, it seems near impossible to do what was done. Getting hacked at with swords and axes should completely preclude one from digging through a pack.

S

Aquan Dreams, up to this point I've been pretty darned respectful with my posts. I don't appreciate what appears to be flip sarcasm on your part. I don't think that's appropriate.

Instead of being angry you lost all your gold, which could have easily been protected IC'ly, you should be thankful the perpetrator didn't outright kill you, which would have been a lot easier.

Getting hacked at with swords and axes likely also precludes drinking a potion, hacking back, digging through your pack for a trinket to use to turn invisible, possibly running away... but, again, it is a fantasy setting, and the implausible is made plausible for the benefit of the game. In this case, making some sort of flip OOC judgment that looting a subdualed PC while others are attacking you is illegal would near-completely invalidate the bold bandit/mugger idea, and the DM team-and a majority of the playerbase-choose to believe that it's more fund to suspend disbelief to allow such concepts to work in this game, rather than impose an arbitrary restriction upon them that would prevent such. While it may not be fun to be on the receiving end, I think it's probably preferable to get mugged rather than completely FD'd-and it does create and expand new roleplay avenues for you to explore in some instances.

Maybe sometimes the experience just sucks, but that holds true for nearly every part of this game, and ultimately the experiences that are good have been judged to outweigh those that are bad, and so the rules are structured in this manner. You can try to make up real-life arguments to guard you OOCly, but they simply aren't going to apply, and you're not going to convince anyone to shield you from getting mugged via a new rule.

And you are right, socialmisfit-my prior post was disrespectful and inappropriate. I apologize for it; my better judgment simply departed me. I won't make the mistake of sullying a thread discussing a legitimate, serious concern with such inane drivel again.

With sincere apologies,

~Aquan Dreams~

Aquan Dreams Getting hacked at with swords and axes likely also precludes drinking a potion, hacking back, digging through your pack for a trinket to use to turn invisible, possibly running away... but, again, it is a fantasy setting, and the implausible is made plausible for the benefit of the game. In this case, making some sort of flip OOC judgment that looting a subdualed PC while others are attacking you is illegal would near-completely invalidate the bold bandit/mugger idea, and the DM team-and a majority of the playerbase-choose to believe that it's more fund to suspend disbelief to allow such concepts to work in this game, rather than impose an arbitrary restriction upon them that would prevent such. While it may not be fun to be on the receiving end, I think it's probably preferable to get mugged rather than completely FD'd-and it does create and expand new roleplay avenues for you to explore in some instances.

Maybe sometimes the experience just sucks, but that holds true for nearly every part of this game, and ultimately the experiences that are good have been judged to outweigh those that are bad, and so the rules are structured in this manner. You can try to make up real-life arguments to guard you OOCly, but they simply aren't going to apply, and you're not going to convince anyone to shield you from getting mugged via a new rule.

And you are right, socialmisfit-my prior post was disrespectful and inappropriate. I apologize for it; my better judgment simply departed me. I won't make the mistake of sullying a thread discussing a legitimate, serious concern with such inane drivel again.

With sincere apologies,

~Aquan Dreams~

Apology accepted. No hard feelings.

Which part of what judgment that I made was flip, exactly? Quote the post please.

Snoteye Instead of being angry you lost all your gold, which could have easily been protected IC'ly, you should be thankful the perpetrator didn't outright kill you, which would have been a lot easier.

Word.

Snoteye Instead of being angry you lost all your gold, which could have easily been protected IC'ly, you should be thankful the perpetrator didn't outright kill you, which would have been a lot easier.

I'm not angry now. Although, come now, I think most reasonable players would be perturbed immediately after losing what my character lost.

Are we allowed to kill one another with the sole motivation of mugging another?

If you're mugging another PC, we recommend that the PvP stays subdual. This encourages conflict and a chance for the other PC to retaliate. Remember, EfU is about storytelling, not winning.

Although, that's not to say you absolutely cannot FD during a mugging. It is highly discouraged, and we will be watching for those PCs who do this, especially if it occurs with high frequency since that could be potential griefing. If ever in doubt, feel free to ask the DM overseeing your PvP if they believe you have a good reason to FD.

Not trying to start an argument here but just in response to Snoteyes post about Icl'y methods of protecting your gold.

To be honest i did do that with one of my characters so to prevent him being mugged i took the Dm advice and put my gold all (5000 to 7000 of it) and put it in a bank. The Ghrunstable one and we all know what happened next. As i said I'm not trying to start an argument and what the Greys did was entirely Ic for the situation its simply that the Dm line at the time was (and to an extent still is) if you didnt want to have your gold stolen put it in a bank where it would be safe.

For the sake of locking this already overdue topic, simplest is to say: It's mechanically impossible, undesirable, lame etc to have more than one OOC gold purse. If it's too fatty, don't get upset when you lose all of it in one snatch when you could have had it another way through various means.

IndelibleMemories is correct. Just think about it, some things are bended for the simplicity of this game and to fit the mechanics. In all honesty, you probably wouldn't be able to carry all that stuff about and all those coins without dropping some and/or purely being crushed under the weight of the items. Plus, no matter where your coin is, she mugged you which means she cased you prior.

For survival's sake, spend your gold on items if you're not saving for something big.

1/ It will make you harder to mug 2/ It will make merchants richer 3/ You can mug the merchant later. 4/ He'll come back at you 5/ And the game goes on

It is important to understand what some of us take for granted.

Ninja looting: The improbably fast stripping of -many- or -large/bulky- items. Often the circumstances of said looting are suspect as well (often engine abuse). This is often a vulture type looting where the individual knows that due to lag, numbers and such there will be an opportunity to steal will little chance of reprisal. Feigning ignorance of the item(s) or gold being taken even though you (say for instance) have no plausible place to hide a large dire mace on your halflings body or pack. This is the kind of looting that makes players angry and pisses of the DMs as wellas it provides no means to an awesome event or events.

Looting: The act of taking things from another player. Emoting and RP ought to be the rule here as well. If I were to die doing something and you, as my companion step up and say; "I'll be taking that armor...he won't be needing it where he's going" [begins removing his armor], does a few things. It allows me to respawn and say; "What the hell are you doing! get your hands off me!" and IG respond and RP. Or it allows that LG paladin a few moments to shine and RP his goodliness. Or, it allows a new and perhaps very evil PC to begin his tales of infamy. No one loses there! Sure I may lose my armor, but I'll happily do that for anyone of you to amp up your awesome rating. Why? Because I play to have fun, and I know no matter what my next setback could be right around the corner. Trust me...I'll find new armor through work, RP and maybe even another kind player.

Looting after subdual: This requires a bit more care and thought. Could you take everything? Sure...given time. Since a DM is near for your PvP they can often help if you have any questions on what is reasonable. Why may reasonable vary? Well, subdual of a guy in the sewers with no witnesses may allow you to take everything should you so chose. Taking things from a popular PC who is a friend to the people of lower may get you killed by an angry mob if you stick around to long. What should you take? That is up to you and what is reasonable for your character. Take the cash? Common. Take a few potions maybe? Common as well. Remember...he is still alive, try not to screw the player too hard. What to ratchet up the awesome? -break his sword in half and tell him next time it's his spine... -Make him renounce his god (and suffer whatever IC hurt the nearby DM lays on him for this) -Take his most valued item which often is a silly trinket they have had for a long time!

Be fun, fair and different and awesome will bring you reward far beyond what you'll find in that pack...I promise!

...and on that note, we'll end this discussion!