Palemaster: HD 1d6, 2 SP/Level, Good Fort & Will.
Level 1: +2AC, Arcane Defense: Necromancy (+2 saves vs. necromancy spells)
Level 2: +1 STR, Animate Dead
Level 3: +2 con flat bonus, 50% negative energy damage immunity, 50% positive energy vulnerability, Darkvision
Level 4: STR bonus changed to +2, Special Summon. AC Bonus changed to +4
Level 5: Immunity negative energy 75%, Immunity Level Drain, +4 saves vs. death, 75% positive energy vulnerability, +3 HP per level of Palemaster - retroactively.
Level 6: Level 6: Con bonus changed to +4, another +3 HP per level of Palemaster (+6 total). Paralyze 2x/day.
level 7: Immune to Stun, Hold Person/Monster, and Paralyzation, another +3 HP per level of Palemaster (+9 total)
Also gains an additional spellcasting level every second level, starting at 1.

This is an impressive PRC! You sacrifice BAB for +6 to physical ability scores, +4 AC, HP that eventually matches or surpasses that of a fighter, immunities, spellcasting, summoning, and whatever 'special grafts' you may earn. Comparing it to another PRC:

Dragon Disciple: HD 1d6, 2 SP/Level, Good Fort & Will.
Level 1: +1 AC
Level 2: +2 STR
Level 3: 2d10 Dragon Breath
Level 4: STR bonus changed to +4, HD becomes d8, not retroactive.
Level 5: AC bonus changed to +2
Level 6: HD becomes d10, not retroactive.
Level 7: +2 CON, Dragon Breath becomes 4d10

RDD has a better BAB, and is a nice PRC, but it just doesn't measure up mechanically to the PM class. The same could be said for most of the other PRCs. Was the Palemaster class really intended to be so powerful on EfU?

I wouldn't compare Prestige Classes power, as they need to be applied for; meaning some might be easier to obtain than others.

Do you know how hard it is to get either of those PrCs? Palemaster is frickin' hard, let me tell you. And for RDD, it's almost completely impossible. Hmm... that is odd.

Not to mention that a Pale Master incurs quite a bit more of a stigma than an RDD. This could lead, in part, to the discrepency. It's more dangerous to be a PM!

I'd add in that Pale Master is a spell-casting PrC, whereas RDD is meant for a combat-caster. From there, extrapolate that PM is bugged, spell-progression is faulty and the HP actually doesn't catch up to Fighters for several levels.

A cursory examination will reveal the information you posted, but a thorough consideration should determine that your reasoning is faulty and could be better presented to make your case.

That's not actually true, Dragonfire. You can attain the Palemaster PrC without an overly difficult amount of work.

I'd say RDD is harder to attain, on EfU.

Really? Do extrapolate in a PM.

The palemaster prestige class is powerful, but I think it compares well with our other prestige classes.

The HP bonus is not retroactive, as you state it is.

Summoning the undead is a capital/executable crime in Sanctuary.

Palemasters only learn additional spells with a wizard base-class, and even then do not gain increased duration.

Palemasters have the lowest BAB of any set of classes.

I could go on.

Many of the other prestige classes (such as RDD) have additional "perks" that are not listed there. I would say in a roleplaying atmosphere such as EfU, it is a pretty big deal to be a favored disciple of a dragon. Weaponmasters are pretty much guaranteed a unique weapon, etc.

Feel free to discuss as you please though.

The proof is there has been 1 Dragon Disciple on efu so far, and about 5-6 Pale Masters.

(Not before the Class changes mind you-- might have gotten harder.)

I was just shooting the breeze mechanically, if you want to get into the RP aspects, which wasn't my own intention, stigmas concerning undead can presumably be changed IG, and all the classes have their own wonderful RP benefits and challenges.

Spellcasting for PMs may be broken, but on EfU and in normal NWN the class is far more viable for melee than anything else- though admittedly more defensively until you achieve two attacks. I could write pages on why the low BAB progression doesn't affect the class in a meaningful negative way, but it suffices to say that EfU doesn't lack for ways to bolster your attack bonus.

Checking I see that the HP is not infact retroactive as I thought, but it's still significant.

Comparatively, it seems more powerful than the other PRCs, especially with it's relatively low mechanical requirments. I wouldn't say out of touch with them, or overpowered- simply, better. Like strawberries to blueberries.

The Palemaster PrC may seem pulled out of balance due to the custom increases; but if you compare those to a pure Wizard of the same level I wouldn't be impressed with what I saw. It's fairly balanced out Im thinking.

Raspberries > All

(Read: I'm working on a Court Herald PrC for EFU. It should be done some time next year. Y'know, classes like that and Merchant Prince have some REALLY high skill rank requirements for EFU's level range - at least the one I play in. It makes me sad.)

Palemaster is definitely way overpowered compared to Court Herald.

But really, it's a specialist class, like most PrCs tend to be. The big general bonuses like +4 AC don't kick in until much later (considering you probably have a sizable number of wizard or similar class levels already). You're far more likely to take positive damage from a PC with good-aligned equipment than get in a Negative Energy Ray battle with another (PC) necromancer.

Of course, nothing I say should be taken too seriously when it comes to mechanics.

It is a durable PRC, but hardly overpowering.

You can't consider prestige classes in EfU without thinking about the RP. The applications are there to make sure you are going to faithfully role-play your class, and the possibilities in just the wizard and bard classes alone have yet to be exhausted. A well role-played standard class is always going to beat the loving crap out of a poorly played prestige class on EfU, and vice versa.

stigmas concerning undead can presumably be changed IG

A Prime Underdark Guide can pretty much become the Marco Polo of Sanctuary if they want -- the role-play benefits of the class far outweigh the mechanical advantages. Here more than any other place on the internet, the most powerful aspects of a prestige class are the parts that don't show up on your character sheet. Once you take that into account, the class balance is there.

Necromancy, once upon a time, wasn't illegal.

It isn't hard to change it back.

The beauty of EFU is that its non-canon, and a blank slate.

We could outlaw paladins, if we could get enough support for it.

Don't be afraid to pursue the crazy IG. Some times it pays off.

classes like that and Merchant Prince have some REALLY high skill rank requirements for EFU's level range

I want.

I've just got to wonder, what would you give that kind of PrC for bonuses? Hmmm.... I'll give that one some thought.

As for balance issues, I think it's perfectly fine. While building a PM in single player I actually considered going pure wizard. After making a pure PM with no outside feats and so on but those required, I realized he sucked. Moral of the story: Without other players on your side, you don't last long. Unless you're Tobin Sett, but that's an inside joke.

All is in balance, en mi opinion. Leave 'er be.

AScottBay You're far more likely to take positive damage from a PC with good-aligned equipment...

I always assumed that the Palemaster prestige class was modified in this manner so that you could rock faces and places as a fighter/bard/Palemaster. It was undeniably weak before, and it certainly isn't now-though I think Sir Bee Nice's comparison of this Prestige Class to the Red Dragon Disciple prestige class has a great deal of merit; I'll also recognize Sir Oroborous' comment that Pale master is a spell-casting prestige class, while Red Dragon Disciple is a combat-casting prestige class. The comments that necromancy is abhorrent and highly-punitive on EfU have no bearing on the class balance discussion; the server nature and difficulty itself may influence the alteration and modification of a class, but the actual state of Sanctuary's politics are an in-character mechanic, and should not influence an out-of-character mechanic like class balance. The fact that it's more "difficult" to play a certain concept in regards to other player-characters and non-player-characters doesn't entail that one receives a class upgrade; it may entail more loot or attention, but that's not a class balance point.

Drawing back to the original point, it's not that Palemaster is "overpowered" (although used properly, it probably is, but that's a discussion for another day and another thread, and it wouldn't be the only class with this problem)-it simply doesn't "fit" or "mesh" well with the current set of prestige classes. It's virtually identical in statistics as it currently stands with Red Dragon Disciple, except that wizards can take it rather than just sorcerers and bards. The deathless physical stats that a Palemaster accrues are certainly an integral part of the prestige class-a Palemaster is, after all, an individual who delves into the necromantic arts and grafts undead components to his/her body to increase his own power. A Palemaster is not solely concerned with increasing his/her own physical strength, however; arcane rituals into necromancy are just as important-or more so-than the physical transmutations he/she undergoes with the bone grafts.

With that stated, Bee Nice's examination of Palemasters ultimately supports the conclusion, I believe, that the prestige class would be more unique, functional, and accessible to the majority of our wizard Palemasters if the additional powers were focused in the magical vein, not in the physical realm. It's certainly more difficult to assign additional necromantic/magical spell powers than to simply boost physical stats, but I do believe it would ultimately suit the prestige class more, as well as make it useful to the common wizardly Palemaster, rather than simply boosting up a fighter/spellcaster to smash faces in with a melee weapon.

As it stands, the distinction between Palemaster and Red Dragon Disciple is very blurry, and the class builds that suit the statistic of each Prestige Class are essentially the same, but their roleplay purposes are entirely different-one develops the fell necromantic arts of undeath through magical and surgical means, while another focuses on manifesting latent draconic blood into a somatic form. Palemaster is certainly serviceable as it is, but the class-and the applicants for it-would likely benefit more from more arcane-focused modifications, rather than physical power modifications.

The goal of a prestige class should be to offer a unique experience to expand your character in a new, specialized direction; while the most important part of this is through the roleplay involved with acquiring the prestige class, the mechanical aspects of the prestige classes cannot be ignored. They were, after all, the reason for these prestige class modifications in the first place. No matter how awesome the concept of a prestige class is, if it "sucks," it's not going to be very popular. Likewise, if it fulfills virtually the same role as another prestige class, the class which is easier to obtain and is more powerful at EfU's levels is going to be more popular-and it will overshadow the other class. The classes have been modified before, and they may be again; Palemaster deserves a change to make it better-suited to the majority of characters who pursue it, and it also deserves a change to alter its current status as an easier-to-obtain and potentially more powerful (at EfU's levels) Red Dragon Disciple. It should be a unique spellcaster experience-not a melee bonecrusher, which is what it is now.

~Aquan Dreams~

Actually the Palemaster PRC is supposed to represent a charecter gradualy turning into a Lich hence the physical changes after all in background a Lich is more than just a another Necromantic spellcaster but someone who has for all intents and purposes become a virtually unkillable undead.

A lich is something else entirely, for the record.

The Pale Master isnt really a Lich, for that you'd need the Dread Necromancer Class that floats about in current PnP DnD. The design notes on that class do say it was ment as an updated version of the Pale Master with a more progressed view on the becoming undead angle. For what little i've seen on Pale Masters on EFU it would seem thay are more the Scholar who dosnt want to be undead himself but uses them and crafts them to his will and in doing takes on certain aspects of them to his own ends. Thay aint a very good class in all fairness considering that you wont be likily to get the full range of benifits on EFU but from a RP stand point thay would make some interesting angles and plots come about.... I mean just look what the scholar got up to.

Most the the prestige class that are available are good but only if you can fully play to their strengths and have like with everything else good friends around you to help you out. Some of them are just sick mind you.... correct me if i am wrong please, but i dont think there will ever be or has been a shadow dancer on EFU considering just how nasty that class can be if used right. Or Blackguard for that matter, then again thay are the most boring of them anyways, you would be far better just building a straight fighter if you wanted to be the black knight, even if that is a little predicatable. Maybe the whole thing about these classes is that thay dont really fit into the setting, other than Pale Master and Weapon Expert that is. Dragons arnt exactly coming out of the walls in the underdark after all and if the Harpers ever come to Sancturay thay would just end up being seekers anyway. Would it require a dreaded hak to make custom prestige classes for efu that would fit more with the setting?

We can, to an extent, modify existing ones, not create new ones. Harper scout has been modified to be more like the prime Underdark ranger -- if we make PDK available with 1.69, that'll probably be modified as well. Shadow dancer is unlikely to be approved due to complications with HiPS, though both it and blackguard actually fit our sitting very well.

I'll also use this opportunity to say that, while we can surely all agree that Aleczumberzeil was a well played character, that was a take on the pale master class; not the end all, be all.

Canonically, the pale master is definitely more combat focused than a pure spell caster, but I sort of agree with Aquan Dreams that our modifications may have taken the class too far away from the spell casting aspect.

It seems to me like the classes work well for what they are meant to represent. A Pale Master should be very powerful. People do not pursue the necromantic path without the promise of great power to lure them in. If a person is capable of becoming a true master of the necromantic arts, it seems to me like they should be more powerful than most of their peers.

A Dragon Disciple, on the other hand, represents somebody who has willingly become the servant of a greater power (granted, this may be one path to pale mastery as well). As a servant, they get a few perks, it's true, but they are still bound to a master, and rely on the knowledge of their draconic master to help them bring out the latent power in their blood. This draconic blood, though it is part of their nature, is usually something that has been in the bloodline for hundreds, if not thousands, of generations, getting weaker with each one. It should take a lot of effort to get that power to manifest itself in the way it is represented by the stat increases of the class. I think it's perfectly reasonable to represent this struggle as taking a longer time than the wizard's pursuit of mastery in the necromantic arts. For a pale master, there is usually well-documented research on their art to be dredged up somewhere or other. Granted again, dragons are extremely powerful beings, with vast wells of knowledge, especially regarding their own race and the magic related to it, but it is also very unlikely for a dragon to have had much experience with previous disciples. It would take time for the dragon and its disciple to unlock the secrets of the disciple's blood, and I think this is represented pretty well in the number of levels it takes for a dragon disciple to start gaining much power.

I believe that is inaccurate for FR, and completely up to the DMs in EfU.

Underestimating the power of the RDD PRC is understandable. It is a bad ass PRC if you think outside the box!

The irony of this thread is that neither the RDD nor the palemaster are (in my opinion) even ~slightly~ as combat effective as a 'regular' level 10 fighter or wizard would be. The slight perks that the palemaster has been given try to even things out a bit, but really, they're not that dangerous.

I guess you could argue that the RDD is a bit weak, but blame bioware for that one. We could always beef it up if we were so inclined, but I guess the fringe benefits of having a dragon for an ally may tend to nullify any inclination the illustrious scripting team would feel toward doing so 8)